To Bi-amp or Not to Bi-amp, that is t... Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Register | Edit Profile

Alembic Club » Owning an Alembic » Fun Stories » To Bi-amp or Not to Bi-amp, that is the question. « Previous Next »

Author Message
jazzyvee
Senior Member
Username: jazzyvee

Post Number: 4334
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 1:55 pm:   Edit Post

Tomorrow night I have a concert with my band at a local music college and it is being fully tracked in pro-tools and a 5 camera video shoot. My plan is to have it mixed properly into a live album.
We are doing a Grover Washington Jr set in commemoration of 15 yrs since he passed away so if you know the music it's jazz funk.

I'm looking for advice about how to organise my gear to get the best sound on:
(a) on stage
(b) on the recording

The gear I have at my disposal consists of.
2 x F1-x's
1 x SF-2
QSC PLX 2402 Stereo Power amp
1 x 15 Mesa boogie powerhouse cab
4 x 10 Mesa boogie powerhouse cab
2 x 10 Mesa boogie powerhouse cab
I also have a Roland JC 120 that I could use via the high pass output on one or both F1-x's

My logical head says keep it simple use my regular mono setup and use two cabs.

On the other hand this is the best and most convenient opportunity to try out bi-amping my rig on stage but I just wanted to put it past you guys for some advice which may be that I should indeed, keep it simple.
I'm all ears so fire away.
tbrannon
Senior Member
Username: tbrannon

Post Number: 1656
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 2:14 pm:   Edit Post

how much time do you have before the show to setup and then fiddle with things to get them the way you want?

I'd be tempted to just run your standard setup so you can focus on playing, rather than worrying about how things might sound in an unfamiliar setup.

Are you taking the Series bass to the show?
jazzyvee
Senior Member
Username: jazzyvee

Post Number: 4335
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 3:13 pm:   Edit Post

I probably have just under 2 hours allocated for our soundcheck so I could fiddle about for a bit and see how it feels.

As for the bass yes it will be both series I & II basses so I can get a chance to hear them both in a good environment. Most gigs I do are reggae so I don't really hear the full spectrum of the basses that often on a gig so I want to make the most of this opportunity.
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3794
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 4:21 pm:   Edit Post

Hello , Jazzy
How many channels is the recording engineering intending to use in the live recording ? IS this a live or studio engagement ?
There are many variables to consider on the stage sound, such as the instrumentation of the ensemble and the frequency balance and SPL's of the live performance and bleed over from the various microphones on stage. From your description it seems like there will be wind instruments as well and that makes the bleed over into the wind instrument mics even more of a pressing issue from a standpoint of a recording engineer . If I were the Engineer on your gig I would try to get a Stereo image first and then strive for articulate instrument clarity in the panorama and that requires a controlled and baffled stage setup. I like to use a DECCA TREE mic configuration over head for a stereo image build. NEXT I use soloist mics and mix them in to taste .

If you are using an Alembic Series I/II I have heard better results running in STEREO Rather then a BI -AMP configuration ! That way you can manipulate the response characteristics of either the bridge or neck pickup with the SF-2 to compliment the all over spectral needs of the ensemble . IF the Engineer is NICE he will allow for a DUAL direct feed from your preamps and then let him decide what to do with it and then focus on your playing and concentration on your playing . Congratulations on landing this gig my friend !

Wolf
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3795
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 4:36 pm:   Edit Post

Hello Jazzy , In my first paragraph in the first sentence , I asked ;
"IS this a live or studio engagement ?" BY live I should have ask , IS there an audience , as in LIVE PERFORMANCE .
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq

Post Number: 5919
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 4:54 pm:   Edit Post

I'm with Toby. I'd stick to a set up I am familiar and comfortable with. I know when I've tried something radically new at a gig or jam, I usually wind up fighting my equipment rather than being in the flow. At minimum, I'd want a few hours by myself messing around with the set up and dialing it in before playing with others. As Wolf notes, there are lots of variables that need to be considered. For myself, thinking about all this stuff would likely adversely affect both my playing and, ultimately, my enjoyment of the gig.

Bill, tgo
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3796
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 4:58 pm:   Edit Post

Hello Jazzy , In my first paragraph in the first sentence , I asked ;
"IS this a live or studio engagement ?" BY live I should have ask , IS there an audience , as in LIVE PERFORMANCE .
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3797
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 5:05 pm:   Edit Post

( double post control) Jazzy , I hope all goes to your satisfaction of the gig .
stephenr
Junior
Username: stephenr

Post Number: 18
Registered: 9-2014
Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 5:50 pm:   Edit Post

I tend to like to keep things simple. The more transparent the equipment is the easier I find it to play well.

I used to run a bi-amped rig back in the 80s but over time realized I liked running the cabinets full range better. A bi-amped rig also requires two mics mixed together properly if you want your stage sound represented in the mix along with a direct signal

If you haven't worked with the engineer or sound crew previously it is also a bit of a gamble to complicate things. Along with keeping all the musicians happy on stage they will have a lot of other stuff to deal with.

Whatever you decide, have a great gig.
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 1871
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 9:49 pm:   Edit Post

I agree with Wolf. For recording purposes, running the bass in stereo affords more control than bi-amping. Bi-amping is all about working with issues in live reproduction which don't have much to do with recording, especially if you are going direct. All of the cabs you are using are good cabs, but they aren't exactly flat, so you'll be making adjustments that will make the stage sound sound better but may not be the best thing for the recorded signal.

I've done all of the above many times and for years was a big believer in bi-amping. I still am for PA systems, but not so much for bass rigs (unless you can afford one like Phil Lesh or Mike Gordon, but those are PA systems). These days I run my bass in stereo whenever I can, for live and recording and it makes mixing very easy. Engineers seem to love it.
cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member
Username: cozmik_cowboy

Post Number: 1808
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 9:52 pm:   Edit Post

Of course you should bi-amp! But not for the first time at a gig............

Peter (who really thinks you should add an 18" & tri-amp - but admits to being strange)
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3798
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 10:14 pm:   Edit Post

If you mic a Series I/II Alembic Bass processed in Stereo ; to obtain a Stage sound to your preference with your SF-2 , you can place your speakers in a standard column formation with only ONE Electrovoice RE-20 microphone placed in the correct location and angle of your stack with baffles to limit bass leakage to the other microphones .( it may never be used in the recorded mix and just recorded for the sake of having it if it is needed) For your Stereo DI is where the dual feed bass DI's can be implemented . Been there done that ____:-) . It all depends what the engineer is willing to do . It can really be a " Walk in the Park " and not really very complex . Many times all that gets used in 'print" is the DI anyway . It all depends . You probably need your stage sound anyway for the other players unless everyone is JUST using headphone monitors , THERE ARE , really many variables in techniques !

Your engineer will likely want his own direct box feed from his own direct box feeding directly off your Bass before ANY of your own equipment . Perhaps ___ .
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 1873
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 10:41 pm:   Edit Post

All this goes to show how much it pays to work with engineers who know you. At the Last Waltz show at the Fillmore right before Thanksgiving, the sound guy, an old friend, said that he brought up the bass DI and bass mic and started doing his usual bass tricks and things weren't really gelling. Then he said to himself "Oh right, this is Edwin's rig." and zeroed out the channel EQ and compression, brought up the DI fader, brought up the mic fader and was done. My DI is post everything (F2B and Lexicon).

Oh yeah, that should be a double 18 for the triamp!
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3800
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 11:00 pm:   Edit Post

Edwin is right , everything is relative .
(Yes , double 18's ___ one crossover @300HZ and the other @150HZ ____LOL !!!) QUAD AMPED _____
jazzyvee
Senior Member
Username: jazzyvee

Post Number: 4336
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 11:34 pm:   Edit Post

Wow a lot to think of. Firstly let me try to clear up any ambiguities I had in my original posting. The event is an actual gig with an audience.. ( assuming anyone turns up).
The Sound engineer is the head of department at the music college we are performing at and teaches in the actual venue so knows it intimately. He is also a professional freelance sound engineer covering everything from small venues to major music festivals etc.... He has also been the sound engineer for the reggae band I play with, Musical Youth, for the past 8 years so he is very familiar "now" with alembics and what I like in my sound.

However where this differs is that this gig is going allow me to use the full bandwidth of the bass rather than mainly the bottom end which is the case with my reggae gigs. They have high quality gear there and he is going to do whatever he can with what they have available to get the best sound in the venue and on the recording.
I guess what I'm trying to say in a long winded way is. This is the best opportunity i've had since having my series basses to actually hear their full range with the equipment I have, and on a gig where I'm playing baselines that allow me to explore more fully what the basses can offer. I want to be able to hear that on stage whilst not compromising what is going on the recording.

He has already offered 4 channels just for bass with some thoughts regarding where the take the DI feed, from the bass or from the F1-x's and in addition putting a mic on both cabs if I'm running bi-amp.

I'm confused as to it means to have the bass in stereo vs Bi-amping?
For stereo do you mean having one pickup feeding the left FOH and one pickup feeding the right FOH?
If that is the answer well we decided that would not be sensible as I switch pickups for some tracks and the volume on both is hardly ever equal which could leave holes in the balance across the sound field.
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 1874
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 11:43 pm:   Edit Post

While the bass signal path is stereo, it's still mixed and panned mono at the FOH board. He just can get more deep into the tonal options of the DIs. Stereo doesn't have to mean panned left and right.
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3801
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2014 - 12:11 am:   Edit Post

Jazzy , in a BI -AMPed signal , the signal is divided into highs and lows that are separately amplified .

AN Alembic Series I/II in Stereo ; bridge & neck pickups separately processed and /or amplified.

I think that what Edwin writes would be an excellent way to do it ;

"While the bass signal path is stereo, it's still mixed and panned mono at the FOH board. He just can get more deep into the tonal options of the DIs. Stereo doesn't have to mean panned left and right."

You are in luck that the engineer is granting you such a large piece of "sonic real-estate ".
fmm
Senior Member
Username: fmm

Post Number: 406
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2014 - 6:52 am:   Edit Post

On a gig this important, I wouldn't want to test anything major "in combat".
bigredbass
Senior Member
Username: bigredbass

Post Number: 2287
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2014 - 10:36 am:   Edit Post

Random thoughts:

- I'd try plugging this all up somewhere else first, and see what you like and what you don't. I've bi-amped before, and it can be confusing inasmuch as you may hear lots of the high pass, and not so much low pass, depending on the room. Or vice-versa.

-Over the years, I've grown to think bi-amping with bass cabinets (ALL of which were designed as 'stand-alone' bins, not designed for two- or three-way operation as PA bins are) is maybe a crapshoot to begin with. In the old days we did it, as there were so few good cabs and high-powered amps, no longer a consideration. Having said that, I can think of no one that builds a 'system' of bass cabs designed for two or three-way operation.

-Then there's the consideration of that 'Gordian Knot' of all the control on a Series axe, plus the SuperFilter (and BTW, there's the F1X along the signal path, with crossover). All of that Q and gain, I instantly understand why Jimmy plays direct and has his positions marked ! Amazingly, when I biamped, I'd set a neutral tone and jack the high pass for more treble, jack the low end for more bass, and never touched the tone controls.

-The 'classic' Alembic stereo idea was each pickup thru its own channel in the F2B, broken out to each side of a stereo power amp into separate cabs. These days you could also go into a chorus or delay, to feed the two channels to get that swirl across the two, the same thing the Jazz Chorus does internally.

-Then past all that, you're really only doing this for your stage sound: After that, it's off into the house thru the Mains, where, hey, it's bi- or tri-amped depending on the setup, and any 'stereo' or 'chorus' effects would be applied.

I'm reaching for Tylenol just thinking this thru . . . Good Luck !

Joey
keith_h
Senior Member
Username: keith_h

Post Number: 2121
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2014 - 12:47 pm:   Edit Post

Generally full range bass cabinets work best when run full range and you let the natural acoustical qualities work. When running different types of cabinets such as an 18" and 4X10 it is good to run them in dual mono so you can balance them but that is about it.

At one time Stanley Clarke's live rig consisted of two full range 18" running from the neck pickup and two full range 4X10 running from the bridge pickup. He also ran the bridge pickup through two 12" equipped guitar amps. In the early years the guitar amps were half Marshall stack but I have seen him use Fender Twins and these days some single 12 Fender. For the front end, other than the Carvin years, I have always seen him use one F1-X for the neck and another F1-X for the bridge pickups. To the best of my knowledge the basic building blocks haven't changed other than who makes the cabinets/guitar amps.

Joey,
Bag End builds bass cabinets intended for two-way use and the system controller supports 3-way although it isn't of much use for bass. This is what I use in my rig of 2, 18" subs and 2, 2X10 to handle everything above 98Hz.


Keith
bigredbass
Senior Member
Username: bigredbass

Post Number: 2290
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2014 - 9:32 pm:   Edit Post

Keith, I knew about BagEnd, and have always wanted to hear an ELF (I don't care what they call it these days . . . ), but as is the case of most things Ron, it's hardly a conventional bi-amp set-up, as cool as it must be.

Interestingly, now BagEnd is offering self-powered cabinets, and yep, you can also get ELF built in. Neat !

Joey
dfung60
Senior Member
Username: dfung60

Post Number: 601
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2014 - 6:03 am:   Edit Post

Too late for advice on your gig, but I would keep life simple for the recording.

Going DI is almost certainly going to give better fidelity sound in the recording than any mic setup on an amp, and certainly better than a multi-mic setup. This will eliminate any shortcomings in the speakers and mic and guarantee that you're starting from a signal that has no phase issues.

If you go for a high-fi reproduction of the natural response of your bass, then you can DI from the output of your DS-5.

If you like to EQ a lot, or use a compressor or other effects, then you want to DI from the point post your effects or right before the power amp. By doing this, you won't be losing control of your compression or EQ to the soundman. If you don't have a post-fx send on the amp, then you do create a problem where your changing the amp output level will change the recording level (that's why the soundman would rather take the DI directly from your instrument - only your instrument volume knob can screw the recording up then).

If you're Flea or Tim Commerford, and a highly distorted power amp is part of your signature sound, then you'll need a mic on the cabinet. That's the only way authentically capture the sound of power amp distortion and speaker breakup.

For the recording, if they can capture a track with your cabinet mic'ed, they can get an idea of what you intended your sound to be and use it to sweeten the mix if necessary.

I've had bi-amp capability before, but never found it to sound great or be worth the trouble. You need a crossover when the cabinet that you're using can't reproduce some of the spectrum you want. If you like to use 18" speakers and you also want a bright slap sound, you can't reasonably expect the 18's to do it on their own, so you might add a cabinet with smaller speaker and crossover to split tasks. Now the 18's don't have to try to reproduce 4000Hz and the HF box doesn't need to be EQ'ed for 40Hz.

If your HF speakers are 10", then if you had enough of them, you could reproduce the 40Hz (or at least 80Hz) cleanly, so why crossover? It's hard to set up useful crossover frequencies that don't introduce phase shifts and notches and lead to you carrying around a lot of hardware.

Your mileage may vary!

David Fung
jazzyvee
Senior Member
Username: jazzyvee

Post Number: 4338
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2014 - 7:33 am:   Edit Post

Ok, we went neck pickup to 1x15 and bridge into 4x10. Tried do from bass then from the f1-x di and the engineer preferred the f1-x feeds. No sf-2 used at all. Both cabs were also close mic's. The rig we'd comfortable in volume and not loud on stage. I loved my onstage sound it was seriously incredible in clarity. I used my S1 for the first half and S2 for second and the difference there was clearly noticeable. The sound crew said they have never heard a bass that sounded this good clear and even toned. I will wait to hear the playback.
I don't think bi smoking is something I will do that often as usually I only take one can to a gig and to be honest with two cabs on top of each other I couldn't hear a massive difference from mono. If I had an 18 inch or a 2x15 can on the neck pickup I expect it would be a different story. Anyway guys as usual you offer great insight for me and thanks for sharing your views and experience.
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq

Post Number: 5921
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2014 - 9:00 am:   Edit Post

Jazzy:

Sounds like your gig was fun. Post some audio if you can.

Bill, tgo
jazzyvee
Senior Member
Username: jazzyvee

Post Number: 4339
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2014 - 9:18 am:   Edit Post

Sorry my last post sounds odd the predictive text in my phone seems overzealous and changes words too drastically.
elwoodblue
Senior Member
Username: elwoodblue

Post Number: 1538
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2014 - 9:50 pm:   Edit Post

entertaining though (Bi-smoking can get complicated :-))

I'd love to hear some of your gig too.
keith_h
Senior Member
Username: keith_h

Post Number: 2122
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2014 - 8:10 am:   Edit Post

I would really like to hear the difference an 18 inch or 2x15 can would make on the bridge pickup. To expand the idea would you use aluminum or tin, pop top or old fashioned lids? The possibilities are endless.

Keith
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3805
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2014 - 9:45 am:   Edit Post

I have an old " Dual throat fold horn : loaded with a JBL K-151 that sounds awesome off a bridge pickup. It is an effective tool helping to obtain a JACO sound. Just a facsimile of that sound .
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3806
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2014 - 9:47 am:   Edit Post

Double post gremlin correction

(Message edited by sonicus on December 14, 2014)
terryc
Senior Member
Username: terryc

Post Number: 2274
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, December 15, 2014 - 2:37 am:   Edit Post

Low tech solution: Stick a mic in front of your amp..works for me everytime LOL
jazzyvee
Senior Member
Username: jazzyvee

Post Number: 4347
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Monday, December 15, 2014 - 5:30 am:   Edit Post

LOL Terry, you are absolutely correct. Most times keeping things simple is the best way to be.
terryc
Senior Member
Username: terryc

Post Number: 2275
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, December 15, 2014 - 5:47 am:   Edit Post

Jazzy...yeah it is, nowadays If I am doing a gig which involves a hired soundman & rigs I just DI from the amp and let them sort the outfront sound, sometimes you can get too caught up in it all that techno stuff and forget about the actual notes you are playing!
There is a guy I know and whatever guitar he is using, whether it be a Squier Starter Strat or a custom boutique guitar going through whatever amp is available, he sounds like BB King everytime! It must be in his fingers!
jazzyvee
Senior Member
Username: jazzyvee

Post Number: 4348
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Monday, December 15, 2014 - 9:45 am:   Edit Post

Agreed that's what I normally do just take a DI from my rig but in this instance I wanted to take the opportunity to experiment because I had all the options available for me to do that.
As for the fingers.... i think that is worthy of it's own thread.
jazzyvee
Senior Member
Username: jazzyvee

Post Number: 4349
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Monday, December 15, 2014 - 9:45 am:   Edit Post

Agreed that's what I normally do just take a DI from my rig but in this instance I wanted to take the opportunity to experiment because I had all the options available for me to do that.
As for the fingers.... i think that is worthy of it's own thread.
terryc
Senior Member
Username: terryc

Post Number: 2276
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, December 15, 2014 - 11:54 am:   Edit Post

Jazzy..yeah good opportunity but I would be lost on all that, takes all my mental faculties just to adjust bass, low mid, high mid & treble and then factor in the filters on my bass! LOL
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 1877
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Monday, December 15, 2014 - 2:41 pm:   Edit Post

I was all set to go stereo this weekend, but decide at the last moment to not bother. The sound guy mentioned that if he had another 421, he'd mic my cabinet (Sunn 200S with JBL K140s), so I offered up my RE20. He ended up just using that and never even brought the DI fader up. I guess it sounded good out front (lots of compliments for the bass tone), but I think the very lowest frequencies were missing.

I'm interested in hearing your impressions of the recording, Jazzy. Were your signals sent post-EQ?

Adjusting all these things is pretty straightforward once you get clear about what the purpose of each tonal option is. Biamping is for balancing highs and lows (or the pickups in stereo), amp tone controls are to interface the bass tone to the room and the onboard electronics are to adjust the tone for each part of the song. At least that's how I think about it. So, if I notice an issue, it's pretty clear what knobs I have to go for.
stephenr
Junior
Username: stephenr

Post Number: 21
Registered: 9-2014
Posted on Monday, December 15, 2014 - 3:39 pm:   Edit Post

Strange that the sound guy used the mic feed and not the DI or a combo of the two. I also think you probably lost a bit of lowest frequencies without the DI but if it sounded good in the room and you were happy with the stage sound that is all that matters.

Pretty much every soundman I work with wants a feed from a DI that is in front of my pre-amp so I bring my Avalon U5 to every gig. If there are enough channels available I ask them to also mic my cabinets.

For a live recording like Jazzy's recent one where there were multiple channels available for the bass it seems like a good time to experiment with sending each pickup to a different channel even if they get summed into mono for the FOH feed.
jazzyvee
Senior Member
Username: jazzyvee

Post Number: 4350
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Monday, December 15, 2014 - 5:13 pm:   Edit Post

Edwin, all being well I should get the recordings from the venue tomorrow afternoon so probably won't get a chance to listen properly till Wednesday. The DI signals were taken Post-EQ.
willie
Advanced Member
Username: willie

Post Number: 256
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2014 - 7:03 am:   Edit Post

If I had a Series Bass I would run it in stereo and Bi-Amp the output of each pick up separately. Both pickups have a wide frequency range. I wouldn't limit either pickups sound by it being reproduced by a single sized driver that can't reproduce cleanly and accurately the full range the pickup is capable of. But that's me. And I never claimed to be normal. Haha.
pauldo
Senior Member
Username: pauldo

Post Number: 1364
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2014 - 7:33 am:   Edit Post

I like Edwin's 'straightforward' description.
Interesting enough (although I haven't been in a large scenario that required it in a looonng time and as Stephen mentioned) past experiences with Sound guys was they always DI'd pre EQ, which meant that my FOH sound ultimatly was controlled by whomever was behind the board. :-(

Jazzy, you were fortunate to have a post-EQ DI.

With that being said - when (again a long time ago) I use my 'big rig' it is a GK800RB bi-amped into a 2x10 and 1x15; and most of the time the amp EQ was set relatively flat seeing that I had a tone monster worth of control on my Distillate - the only change for room sound would be where the frequency was set for the bi-amp split. blah blah blah blah - sometimes I just like to hear myself talk . . . .

The gigs I played in the last couple years have easily and respectfully been handled with a Carvin MB15,
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3814
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2014 - 12:14 pm:   Edit Post

Willie , I have done as you describe in your post #256 as an experiment .
Such a notion makes me brain-storm ____ ! ( the geek gets out and romps about and such ) :-)
What would your personal choice of respective cross-over frequencies be ?


What drivers would you use ? What would you look for as far as the excursion figures of the lowest frequency driver ? In other terms what XMAX figures would you look for to make it appealing to your application requirements ? I was just wondering regarding your preferences ____

Wolf
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 1879
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2014 - 6:15 pm:   Edit Post

I had a stereo biamped system for a while. I found that the bridge pickup didn't benefit nearly as much as the neck pickup. In fact, one of my favorite setups these days is using a Showman with a Sunn 200S for the neck pickup and a Bandmaster with a single JBL K-120 for the bridge. That's pretty much all I need, although that's for a particular tone. If I was playing funk, it wouldn't do it at all.

I also think that biamping isn't really necessary for certain speakers. A fEARful has an excellent passive crossover (which weighs more than the woofer) and with a cabinet like that, there's no real need to biamp, especially now that power amps are very powerful and light these days. Most bass cabinets are so colored that biamping can really help overcome limitations of the cheap passive crossovers, etc. I'd rather use a fEARful full range than pretty much all of the commercial bass cabinets biamped. But that's just me.
willie
Advanced Member
Username: willie

Post Number: 257
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 5:50 am:   Edit Post

Wolf
I used to use JBL drivers. But now I use Beyma Drivers in cabinets I designed and built or ones I modified. For lows I use a 15G40's. 15" driver, 25-1500 Hz., Xmax 7mm. Thunderous clear lows. For mids I use 10MI100's. 10" mid bass driver. 70-4000 Hz. Xmax 4.5 mm. The clearest mid bass sounds I ever heard in a bass rig. I have a lot of 10" woofers but don't use them. I always Bi-amp so my 10's never see any real lows and the mid bass drivers reproduce mids way better than a woofer could. For highs I use CP-22 Bullet super tweeters. 4000-20000 Hz. Crossovers at 150 Hz and 4000 Hx. Depending on cabinet combination I am using I use 2 Crown MA9000I Amps in Bridge Mono. One for lows and one for highs. I can also add 2 Crown PB-3 Amps each in bridge mono if using all my cabinets. So either 12000 or 15000 watts. I also separately compress my highs, lows and full range signals. I use F-1X Pre-amps, SF-2 Filter and DBX 160A Compressors. I think this is the clearest and best sounding bass rig I ever heard, I don't have a Series Bass so I don't get to Bi-Amp each pickups output. If I did I would for the ultimate control and reproduction of the tone each pickup can produce.. But my Alembic Basses sound great through this rig. It can fully reproduce them accurately and cleanly. Oh yeah, it can be loud too!
jazzyvee
Senior Member
Username: jazzyvee

Post Number: 4351
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 6:48 am:   Edit Post

I can imagine JJ reading this thread and having a wry smile to himself as he walks on stage, plugs into a a couple of DI-boxes and delivers some serious bass vibes.

I'm gonna try that with my series bass next year and see how that works. Though I can imagine my reggae band wanting to hear & feel more bottom end on stage.
terryc
Senior Member
Username: terryc

Post Number: 2277
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 8:03 am:   Edit Post

I can imagine Jaco reading this and becoming totally confused to what everyone is going on about!
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3815
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 9:37 am:   Edit Post

Willie ,Thanks for your response . The 7mm Xmax is very impressive on those Beyma 15G40's ! Your rig indeed seems noteworthy ! ___:-) ! Nice gear .

Wolf
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3816
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 9:44 am:   Edit Post

Willie ,Thanks for your response . The 7mm Xmax is very impressive on those Beyma 15G40's ! Your rig indeed seems noteworthy ! ___:-) ! Nice gear .

Wolf
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 1880
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 10:35 am:   Edit Post

Jazzy, I've done that a few times. Having good in ear monitors helps (I use Futuresonics, which are based on actual speakers, rather than balanced armatures, so they have fantastic low end). Trying to get satisfying bass tone out of a wedge is pretty difficult. If the house is cranked up enough, you can get all the low end thump you need from there.

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Username: Posting Information:
This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Password:
Options: Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message
Action:

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration