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skyboltone
Member
Username: skyboltone

Post Number: 74
Registered: 11-2010
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2011 - 10:39 pm:   Edit Post

There are a whole nuther bunch of bass speakers than there used to be. The old standbys though were Altec and JBL. Fender had a relationship with JBL so they were used a lot, but I found that the big old 4" voice coil often couldn't stay in the gap and you could easily overdrive them. Altec had a 3" voice coil and a deeper gap. Altec also always published Xmax figures that were minimal compared to those published for JBL but then they were tougher speakers. I found out recently from an old retired Altec engineer that Altec always published it's Xmax numbers at a far lower distortion level than JBL. The Xmech was always 1/2", far more than JBL drivers.

Anyway, I just acquired a pair of 418LF that are going into a bass cab for a biamped setup. I'll probably use 2 high power 10" aluminum dust cover drivers and a suitable tweeter with passive crossover for the high end. Say above 4 or 500hz. I haven't selected those yet. JBL K-110s are unobtainium. Perhaps you folks know of another....
Dan
elwoodblue
Senior Member
Username: elwoodblue

Post Number: 1208
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2011 - 10:53 pm:   Edit Post

Interesting,
I'm just beginning to learn about the vintage specs of JBLs,Altec,Gauss...
In fact I'm dumping the Mackie PA and am psyched to build up an old school PA for the band.

I can ask my JBL guy if he has any K-110s if you like.
poor_nigel
Intermediate Member
Username: poor_nigel

Post Number: 128
Registered: 11-2009
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2011 - 10:53 pm:   Edit Post

Hey Dan - JBL 2010H speakers go from 70Hz to 7kHz and will handle 300 watts. I sold off eight I was planniong to make a couple of bottoms with. Shame on me. I currently use a pair of dual JBL K-110's (4), and they go up to 6KHz, matching my bass's highs nicely. You do not need a tweeter with these, as four or five string basses do not put out anything usable above 6kHz. I do not believe they make these speakers anymore, but they can probably be had on eBay, I'm sure. Something to think about, anyway.
skyboltone
Member
Username: skyboltone

Post Number: 75
Registered: 11-2010
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2011 - 11:07 pm:   Edit Post

Yeah TK:
I got JBL K-110 in my favorite searches. They're scarce. The K-140 shows up frequently. Nice, but I'm just an altec guy I guess. Altec made nothing suitable for this purpose though. I'll keep a sharp eye out for 2010s.
crobbins
Senior Member
Username: crobbins

Post Number: 823
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 7:58 am:   Edit Post

I use JBLs in all my guitar amps.
funkyjazzjunky
Senior Member
Username: funkyjazzjunky

Post Number: 686
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 11:35 am:   Edit Post

Trivia

Is the original name Altec Lansing?

Wasn't the person JBL was named after the same Mr. Lansing?
tubeperson
Intermediate Member
Username: tubeperson

Post Number: 151
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 11:53 am:   Edit Post

JBL stands for James B. Lansing. The Altec Lansing is a brother I beleive, kind of like Puma versus Adiddas.
skyboltone
Member
Username: skyboltone

Post Number: 78
Registered: 11-2010
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 11:54 am:   Edit Post

Elwood, here's yer system!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ALTEC-LANSING-CONCERT-PA-SYSTEM-16-817-32-421-10-291-/350247567048?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item518c61bec8#ht_1710wt_951
elwoodblue
Senior Member
Username: elwoodblue

Post Number: 1213
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 12:14 pm:   Edit Post

hehe...yup...but we need some more sunshine for some good outdoor gigs.

Here's one we did last year, I'm going to borrow a few cabs and horns from this "little" system.
JBLs and Gauss up top :-)

Fun,fun,fun !!

Thanks for thinking of me,
Elwood
skyboltone
Member
Username: skyboltone

Post Number: 79
Registered: 11-2010
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 12:35 pm:   Edit Post

Altec Lansing was the original company sorta. The All Technical Company. They actually evolved from an outfit named Western Electric. They bought the Lansing Manufacturing Company in '40 something. Later, James B broke off his own company based on some engineering issues. Both made a fine product. JBL is in the process of moving all it's manufacturing to Mexico because of California's unbearable tax issues. Crown is a JBL product also but was manufactured in Ohio I think.

Altec sold out to LTV in 1960 something?, and then another outfit in about 1990. The new folks dropped the pro audio line in '90 to concentrate on toys like computer speakers. Crapola. What remains of the Altec pro audio stuff is made on original equipment by Great Plains Audio. He also re-cones everything.

If you really want to get some perspective on this, research why a surface on which a movie is projected is called a "screen".

That early stuff is priceless.

(Message edited by skyboltone on March 22, 2011)
poor_nigel
Intermediate Member
Username: poor_nigel

Post Number: 130
Registered: 11-2009
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 1:23 pm:   Edit Post

I do love old speakers. So much so that in the wasteland of northern Maine, I would do things like bring my home stereo to the company pic-nic to get it some use time. It was a nice mix of 1960's drivers and horns: Gauss 15" in the dual horn-loads, 10" and 12" JBLs for mid, and old JBL 2395 plate hrons and their tiny equivalent sitting on top of the 21" cabs. I cannot remember their model number, but all used 2" drivers, except the Altec 5005B's on the VOTs in the back (they had JBL D-140-F's in them). They sounded wonderful. They do not make better speakers these days in my opinion, just cheaper speakers. Lighter ones, too I guess, as these required a truck and hand-trucks to get them to the gig and back.

BBQ1

BBQ2
skyboltone
Member
Username: skyboltone

Post Number: 80
Registered: 11-2010
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 1:42 pm:   Edit Post

I love the 816 cabs on their sides. Never looked at them that way. Wait, those aren't 816s they're 816 dash something. Same cab, just with a pair of drivers.
Is that a pair of JBL 123 above the monster ported bass cab?

I assume the JBL lenses are the ones you sold a few years back. Awesome!!!! I'm so glad we didn't know each other then.

Dan

(Message edited by skyboltone on March 22, 2011)
skyboltone
Member
Username: skyboltone

Post Number: 81
Registered: 11-2010
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 2:37 pm:   Edit Post

The curved white surface behind the scaffolding is the back of a cinemascope screen. The sound passes through the screen. Smart folks thought up stereo so that the sound would seem to be coming from it's source visible on the projection screen.

http://www.leesound.com/bw_photos/photo13.jpg

(Message edited by skyboltone on March 22, 2011)

(Message edited by skyboltone on March 22, 2011)
skyboltone
Member
Username: skyboltone

Post Number: 82
Registered: 11-2010
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 2:48 pm:   Edit Post

Here's what my headstone might look like:
http://www.leesound.com/bw_photos/alteca7a.jpg
poor_nigel
Intermediate Member
Username: poor_nigel

Post Number: 131
Registered: 11-2009
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 8:27 pm:   Edit Post

Not JBL 123s. Left pair are orange basket JBL Fender 12's, and the right pair are JBL K-120's. Gee, I wonder why they don't make HUGE Voice Of The Theaters any more??? What would those do to the bottom line of theaters these days? Enough wood in a set to house a homeless family of three. Old speakers are so much cooler than new ones, IMO.
bigredbass
Senior Member
Username: bigredbass

Post Number: 1649
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 9:51 pm:   Edit Post

I have NO idea if these are anything like what you guys are talking about here, but ran across these at Bass Emporium in Austin, and thought of this thread, so here goes:

http://www.bassemporium.com/item.php?sku=USEDALTEC421A1

J o e y
crobbins
Senior Member
Username: crobbins

Post Number: 829
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 10:18 pm:   Edit Post

Here's what I have in one of my Fender amps.
5sicks
Junior
Username: 5sicks

Post Number: 16
Registered: 8-2010
Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 10:30 pm:   Edit Post

D140's were always my favorites (ca 67-72). The newer designs have higher power handling and higher spl and so are capable of handling much more power and hence more clarity. Also you don't need as many to achieve the same levels. The horn loaded cabs of yesteryear look cool as hell but the technology has rendered those designs all but obsolete. The newest line arrays just blow the old stuff away both in terms of coverage at far field and clarity. We still use SR47 series tops and subs for FOH. Thank God there are some young guys in the band so I don't have to carry them around. They still sound great(after numerous re-cones and horn and 8" upgrades) and cover 200 peeps at 115db at 50'. My recommendation for HF drivers is the Eminence 2002; 80w @ 1600hz and up. They're plenty loud without being brittle, and they are only $54@
poor_nigel
Intermediate Member
Username: poor_nigel

Post Number: 137
Registered: 11-2009
Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 12:53 am:   Edit Post

Hey Joey, I do believe that is a 15" that would excite Dan. They were decent enough speakers, but I like bigger voice coils for a little better control. I love old speakers, but my favorite woofers are P.Audio 21" drivers with 6" voice coils. They'll do whatever a B string tells them to, no complaints. However, a hand truck is a mandatory accessory for even a single cab with those. The $54 drivers Thomas points out sound very tempting, as the diaphragms for the JBL 2450's I like to use cost $150 a pop, if something goes wrong. However, since I always tri-amp, they are crossed over at 4K to 5K, so not much chance of blowing them. You can get used JBL 2450's on eBay for about $400 a piece. I bought eight from the old QSC auctions where they would sell a dozen or two JBL drivers (10's, 12's, 2" horns, etc.) they used for testing their amps with, and then dump them on eBay is mass. Those were the days!
skyboltone
Member
Username: skyboltone

Post Number: 88
Registered: 11-2010
Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 8:54 pm:   Edit Post

Crobbins: That looks like a D-130F in either a Vibrasonic? or Bassman? I'm not sure on the brown amps but I know the tweeds (a year or two older than that one) had the baffle boards attached top and bottom only. Your amp has supports all the way around. In any case I believe it's a retrofit.

Joey: the 421LF is a Ferrite magnet speaker. The 418LF is an Alnico speaker. The 421 would be more analogous to the JBL E-140 but with no where near the power handling capacity. The E-140 came along about ten years later and is good probably for about 300 watts with a low E. Both Altecs are rated at 100 watts; but like I said in the beginning Altec used more conservative rating system across the board on it's drivers. Xmech (excursion before mechanical damage) on the Altecs is half an inch! If you drive a JBL a full quarter of an inch out, the voice coils come out of the slots. However.....other than the F model (Fender) the compliance, or stiffness of the suspension on the JBLs is waaaaay stiffer than any Altec. You simply couldn't drive the speaker that far before heat would destroy the voice coil.

So, after all that OPINION I think the ultimate direct radiator small bass cab would be; a K-145 (15 inch) on the bottom crossed over at about 500-800hz into two K-110s (10") on top. Or...an Altec 418LF on the bottom and two K-110s on the top. In either case you'll have to pad the K-110s down a bit because they will eat the 15" speakers lunch in the SPL department.

Finally 5Sicks, I hear you loud an clear ;o) on the vertical arrays. Man, here in Reno the PepperMill casino just rebuilt their 7500 peoples venue with 4 arrays about 20 feet tall stuffed with some kind of 12' or 15" cone drivers and a bunch of little tweeters. Two are near the stage and two are midway toward the back of the arena. It's the finest audio I've ever heard in a venue that size or maybe any size. There are 6 huge video screens fed from a variety of camera angles around the arena including a boom cam that the operator drives around in from far left on the arena floor! Maybe 60-70 feet of boom? He's not even on the stage. They have delays set on the speaker arrays so there is NO echo or latency at all. Amazing.

Dan

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