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electronicstud
New
Username: electronicstud

Post Number: 9
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2010 - 7:54 pm:   Edit Post

Hello, I decided to go with an F-1X and used the "pre out" and "pre in" of my Hartke power amp to #1(in) and "rullrange" (out) of my F1-X. My power amp also has post in and post out. It seems that I could also simply run my Epic through the F-1x (# 1 or 2 input on the front) then from "Fullrange" on the F-1x to tne input -10db or -20db on my power amp. I am sure that I will try these combonations soon but I am worried about my ignorance. I dont want to learn the hard way..I have done that a few times before, not fun. How do you guys hook up your pre amps to your power amps? pre, post, or in to out? So far I am very happy with my F1-X, I have just messed around with it a bit (got it today) and somehow I sound like a bass player. Solved my G string twang prob instantly, I was about to jack with my pickups. Thanks guys, you always do me right. Any and all comments help me...thanks!
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 9160
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2010 - 8:11 pm:   Edit Post

Which model Hartke?
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 511
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2010 - 9:51 pm:   Edit Post

If it were me, I would bypass as much of the Hartke electronics as possible. So, I would go from the fullrange out of the F1X into the amplifier in of the Hartke and leave their preamp out of it entirely.

The only caveat is that there might be some preshaping in the Hartke preamp that the power might need. I've had this issue with some cheaper combos or integrated heads where the power amp doesn't reach the very lowest frequencies so the preamp has a low mid bump to compensate. If it's a higher end Hartke, it probably won't have this issue.

Have fun! These preamps rock!
electronicstud
New
Username: electronicstud

Post Number: 10
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 2:20 pm:   Edit Post

It is a Hartke HA4000. 12 knobs on the front. I think it is a mid 90's model. Right now I keep all of the hartke sound shaping knobs at 12 o'clock (neutral-ish) all 11 of them. I cant turn the volume knobs up very high on both at the same time, my house starts shaking and my ampeg 410 starts clipping my power amp. I wonder if I need more speakers now!? I dont think I can bypass the Hartke pre, I can put the f-1x before the hartke pre through the pre loop, or after through the post loop. I think.
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 9162
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 5:14 pm:   Edit Post

Go with Edwin's advice.

Run an instrument cable from the full range out on the F-1X to the Return Post on the back of the Hartke. This bypasses the Hartke's preamp. Unfortunately, there is no separate volume control for the power amp portion of the Hartke head, so your only volume control will be the one on the F-1X. All of the controls on the front of the Hartke will be by-passed. From the back of the Hartke, run a spearker cable from one of the speaker outputs to the cab and your all set.

Plug your bass into either input one or two on the front of the F-1X. There is a 10db difference, so that gives you a little help in matching up with the Hartke.

Is your 410 a four ohm cab or an eight ohm cab? It should say on the back. And what is the power rating? It might show that on the back as well. What is the model number? A good quality 410 should be sufficient to fill your house with sound.
electronicstud
Junior
Username: electronicstud

Post Number: 11
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2010 - 8:18 pm:   Edit Post

Right! "post return" I did it and it worked! not like last night when I tried hooking the f-1x in the pre and post loops and then in line; my poor Hartke turned into a space heater! That cooling fan was actually blowing out more hot air than the space heater I have in my bathroom before it went into protect mode and shut off. I just learned something; I never would of guessed to hook straight into the post return, kinda like tapping a transformer. The loss of controls makes me wonder about power amp options. This just doesn't seem practical..but it works. Are other power amps more welcoming to a pre-amp? My cab is a svt-410HEN 500Watt 8ohm. Thanks Dave and Ed, you were much more help than the Hartke manual and all the blogs I read. "Hostile takeover with an F-1x".
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 9165
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2010 - 8:53 pm:   Edit Post

Just to make sure we're on the same page with nomenclature, your Hartke is not a "power amp"; it's a bass head that includes both a preamp and a power amp. Since the F-1X is itself a preamp, what we've done is bypass the preamp section of your head and we're just using the power amp section. Most stand alone power amps have volume controls, and only volume controls.

I'm thinking your svt-410HEN is not a good match for your Hartke, as this particular 410 is looking for a lot more power at 8 ohms than the Hartke can provide. Your Hartke is rated at 400 watts into 4 ohms; so it's probably capable of around 225 to 250 watts into 8 ohms. This cab needs a power amp that can provide around 500 watts at 8 ohms. Or you could get a 4 ohm cab that's rated around 400 ohms watts to match up with the Hartke.

(Message edited by davehouck on March 12, 2010)
dadabass2001
Senior Member
Username: dadabass2001

Post Number: 1380
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Friday, March 12, 2010 - 10:57 am:   Edit Post

Oops, I'm betting Dave meant 400 watts in post 9165 above.
Mike
electronicstud
Junior
Username: electronicstud

Post Number: 12
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Friday, March 12, 2010 - 3:31 pm:   Edit Post

ok.. thanks, now I just checked to make sure that the original speakers are in there..32 ohm each, that means to get 8 ohm they are in parallel. and now i realize that disconnecting a speaker or 2 will most likely not help at all. hmm thought I was slick there for a min. Thanks for setting me straight.
elwoodblue
Senior Member
Username: elwoodblue

Post Number: 1017
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Friday, March 12, 2010 - 4:24 pm:   Edit Post

Here's a nice little ohm calculator for cabs I have bookmarked.
rjmsteel
Junior
Username: rjmsteel

Post Number: 42
Registered: 7-2008
Posted on Friday, March 12, 2010 - 4:38 pm:   Edit Post

Thanks, elwoodblue, for the very nice calculator link.
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 9167
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Friday, March 12, 2010 - 5:08 pm:   Edit Post

Thanks Mike! It's a bit concerning that no matter how many times I proof read something, there's still an obvious error that I just don't see.
elwoodblue
Senior Member
Username: elwoodblue

Post Number: 1018
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Friday, March 12, 2010 - 5:12 pm:   Edit Post

LOL...I kept reading 'watts' just because it made sense, I couldn't find the error even after Mike pointed it out.
electronicstud
Junior
Username: electronicstud

Post Number: 13
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2010 - 6:40 pm:   Edit Post

I hear speak of a "power amp" without an intregrated preamp. I have done a bit of searching but without any results. With all of the stand alone preamps available there must be a market for a beastly power amp without a preamp section. Perhaps with 2, 1000 watt channels (4 ohm)? Anyways... does anyone know where I could buy a "power amp" made with the intensions of a separate preamp (or 2) being used? Or does everyone have to spend $1500 or more on a quality combo (pre and power) amp head only to bypass the preamp section with their favorite separate preamp(F-1X)? thx.
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 9171
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2010 - 6:51 pm:   Edit Post

There are lots of great power amps out there. Many of us here use QSC, Crown, Stewart and many others. My rig is powered by a QSC PLX 2402.
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 529
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 1:53 am:   Edit Post

There is a huge market of beastly power amps. Dave is right, and those are some the good ones. I used a PLX 2402 for a long time.

These days I've gone back to my McIntosh MC2105. 3 times the weight, 1/2 the power and 100 times the tone. Something about this amp just makes the sound bigger in all the ways you would hope. If only it was 300 wpc instead of 135. Of course, at that rate, it would be a 2300 and weigh 130 lbs.

Good luck and have fun! Finding a new great power amp is a great feeling!
keith_h
Senior Member
Username: keith_h

Post Number: 1551
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 5:58 am:   Edit Post

Dave pretty much covered the major power amp manufacturers.

I use a QSC PLX 3002 this is about 900W per channel at 4 ohms. It has been replaced by the PLX2 3102 at 1000W per channel. QSC also has the PLX2 1804 at 900W but it does not support 2 ohm or bridged operation. For Crown the XTI 2000 is 800W/channel and XTI 4000 1200W/channel at 4 ohms. These would cover your mentioned 1000W per channel at 4 ohms.

You should be able to locate any of the QSC or Crown amps either used or new online. If you don't like e-bay (I sure don't) try some of the local sound reinforcement companies. They will quite frequently have used stuff for sale. A number of them will also sell new and typically have better prices than Musicians Friend, Guitar Centers, etc.

Keith
cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member
Username: cozmik_cowboy

Post Number: 669
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 7:39 am:   Edit Post

"Dave pretty much covered the major power amp manufacturers."

Except for the most transparent-sounding & reliable one. If you're thinking power amp, do yourself a favor & look into Yamaha.

Peter
keith_h
Senior Member
Username: keith_h

Post Number: 1553
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 8:29 am:   Edit Post

I forgot about Yamaha. I also forgot about Crest. As I have no experience with Stewart my expectation is some of the folks that use them will provide an opinion.

I don't think one can say Yamaha is the most reliable amp line. My feeling is they all have about the same reliability. I know that my 5 QSC's have never had a problem and are quite road worthy. I was also using QSC back in the 1980's and had no issues. Some of the newer amps with built in DSP have had issues with software but it is easy enough to stay away from those.

Any well designed power amp will be transparent to the signal path. All of the brands mentioned are well designed in my opinion. There are some folks that do not like the newer switching power supply amps for subs and prefer the old iron. The general opinion is the old larger transformers handle the low transients better. It also doubles the weight. For both my rig and PA I use switching amps and have never noticed any problems. Of course I don't drive my PA or rig at the limit so I'm not in a position to voice an opinion in this area.

Keith
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 783
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 9:36 am:   Edit Post

I bring these factors up EVERY time when helping to select power amps for folks; 1) CONVECTION or FAN cooling?
2) DAMPING FACTOR ? (higher = better definition in lower frequencies)
3) TRUE POWER RATING @ 8OHMS in RMS WATTS?
4) What is the procedure to operate in bridged mode?
5)WEIGHT?

When selecting an older used power amp you have the of ability of choosing one with a good track record reliability wise !
cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member
Username: cozmik_cowboy

Post Number: 670
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 12:04 pm:   Edit Post

Keith, I base my statement on this: when I was a professional soundman (8 years fulltime), I used Crown, Crest, QSC, BGW, Trayner, Peavy, and probably some I'm forgetting. Every one quit on me mid-gig at some point - except Yamaha. All the others also changed the sound, from a mild coloring on the QSCs to outright mud on the Peavys. For bass (as opposed to reinforcement), some may prefer the various colors, but I think all would prefer the always-works bit. I will admit, however, that the afore-mentioned experiences were 1977-84, and it is possible that some of the others have improved. I have used Yamahas recently, and they remain the only power amp I'd buy (though I'm unfamiliar with Stewart - they may be just as good for all I know).

Peter
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 784
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 12:30 pm:   Edit Post

I own 3 YAMAHA P2200 units that are from the late 1970's that are still GOING STRONG! (that is what I refer to as a good track record)Yamaha p2200
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 530
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 12:31 pm:   Edit Post

I'll side with Peter on this one too. I've used Crown, Crest, QSC, BGW, CM Labs (actually a great amp, but the design failed in the way they attached the monstrous power transformer to the chassis, resulting in a catastrophic mess when it would shake loose and bash the innards to pieces. Get some good lockwashers in there and it was a killer amp that was very reliable) and others. In a pro audio scenariao, they sounded OK, but when put up against an amp designed for audio quality, they come up pretty short. This is true not only while pushing the amp to its limits but in the low power performance of the amp. Pro audio amps are by no means transparent to the signal path. Straight wire with gain is the ideal, but the pro audio world has goals that have compromised that idea.

My Mac 2105 was my studio monitor amp after being retired from the road and it sounded wonderful powering monitors by Tannoy and Dynaudio. One afternoon I got a wild hair to replace it with my QSC PLX2402, figuring that the intervening years of 1970 to 1995 or whenever the QSC was designed would have come up with all kinds of improvement to the sound. In short, the QSC was unlistenable. The soundstage flattened right out, the high end turned to cardboard, the low end moved the speaker cones, but was somehow just not that present. I lost the ability to judge reverb amounts, the tails disappeared before I could judge their length, it was a mess. I think there was a huge tradeoff made in fidelity to achieve low weight, sheer power and a good degree of reliability (the amp finally had a problem a couple of weeks ago. The guy I sold it to has been dragging it around the country for the last 3 years in a trailer with no suspension, so things loosened up and I did the same since I got it in 1998. However, my Mac has had similar treatment and has never had a problem, despite being bashed, bent, beat up into weird loads, fed all kinds of abusive signals, etc.

What's my point? Who the hell knows? I guess it's just to be aware of the fact that pretty much every amplifier has made a decision about the tradeoffs that are inherent in design. You can have loud, light, or high fidelity, but not all three cheaply. Adjusting for inflation, there are great deals in amps out there today, but look carefully at what you are really getting. I've decided that good sound trumps light and loud. A 2300 would be nice, but I'm not that desperate to get that loud at the cost of that much weight.
bigredbass
Senior Member
Username: bigredbass

Post Number: 1370
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 7:39 pm:   Edit Post

I'm with Sonicus: The 80's Yamaha P-Series power amps were reqmarkably clean, spacious, and airy, and every bit as rugged as my yardstick in those days, the Peavey CS800, the Ford pickup of power amps if there ever was one.

J o e y
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 785
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Monday, March 15, 2010 - 9:35 am:   Edit Post

HI J o e y !
What is nice about the P2200 is that it is convection cooled and is great for use even as a studio monitor amplifier for passive monitors. Some engineers have regarded them as the poor mans Bryston 4B SST Pro because of the clean high power uncolored performance.
keith_h
Senior Member
Username: keith_h

Post Number: 1554
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Monday, March 15, 2010 - 10:11 am:   Edit Post

Joey,
I agree with you on the trade offs. As I said I know of folks that won't use switching amps for subs. They prefer the old iron transformers and are willing to put up with the extra weight. Of course a lot of these folks (pro audio) have help schlepping the amp racks around. The RMX line is fairly popular in the midsized to large systems of the pro audio world for it's standard transformers.

I will disagree on the PLX Series amps. I have couple of audiophile friends that use them in very high end audio systems with great results.

There is a reason why we have so many companies to choose from. If we all liked and wanted the same thing we would all own Behringer. :-)

Keith
electronicstud
Junior
Username: electronicstud

Post Number: 14
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2010 - 6:57 pm:   Edit Post

wow..This forum is very rich in inteligence and experience, you guys should get together and write a book. Oh yea... my generation doesn't read books. This forum makes "harmony central" and "BassTalk.com" look like ...well.. what they are. I will buy a power amp most likely on craigslist. I have been looking the past couple days and havn't found enough power yet. I am not worried about weight at all, hell.. I pay money to lift weights. I dont travel at all and I am 32, So... I now know what to look for.. awsome thanks. On another note if anyone is still listening..I wanted to mess around with the tube in my F-1X, I wanted a spare and to hear a different tube; didn't work..at all. I took the tube out as to give a size reference, I bought what they had... a Groove tube Silver series ST-12AX7-C,(12 bucks) and a Groove tube-12AX7-R (20 bucks). Well..the GT-R wouldn't fit even though I had the poor teenager rip apart several boxes to find the slimest one which apeared to be the same size as the tube I pulled out. hmmmmmmm. The St-12ax7-c fit well but buzzed like crazy, I tried to let it warm up for a few min but gave up and pulled it out. Do I have to put the same exact tube back in? (Biasing?) The tube I pulled out only has 12AX7 in red ink written on it and barely fits in the sleave. J J? Thanks for the Tips guys, I am definantly moving forward.
elwoodblue
Senior Member
Username: elwoodblue

Post Number: 1022
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2010 - 7:21 pm:   Edit Post

Here's a couple threads discussing tube swapping in the F-1x:

http://www.alembic.com/club/messages/394/21239.html

http://alembic.com/club/messages/393/22979.html
electronicstud
Junior
Username: electronicstud

Post Number: 15
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2010 - 8:31 pm:   Edit Post

thx Mr. Blue. I guess something was wrong with the silver series groove tube. maybe I will try it again, or call that one guy off of the link and get a jj tube that fits. Or maybe the one than came with my preamp will last 20 years. cheers.
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 791
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2010 - 10:12 pm:   Edit Post

Envelope vacuum and plate design play an interesting factor on the timbral aspects of 12aX7/ECC83 type design , I prefer a hard envelope vacuum over a soft envelope vacuum for the reproduction of the lower frequencies as experienced in the dynamics of a Bass Guitar. A hard envelope vacuum will yield more definition and cleaner response of transients, My picks for NOS tubes are Telefunken ECC83 with smooth plates & RCA 12AX7(red box). New tubes; Russian Electro-Harmonix 12ax7. I am still looking for a matched pair of NOS CBS Hytron or Raytheon 7729 tubes for testing which quite possibly would become my new choice of preference for my ALEMBIC F-2B.
artswork99
Senior Member
Username: artswork99

Post Number: 1029
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 5:36 am:   Edit Post

And when the tube subject arises this video can teach you to make your own ;)
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 792
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 7:34 am:   Edit Post

FASCINATING !
electronicstud
Junior
Username: electronicstud

Post Number: 16
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 5:46 pm:   Edit Post

LOL nice. Yea I think I can pull that off. I watched that video pt 1 and 2,3. then I watched one of a tube manufacturing facility in England around the 1920's. I was wondering... who taught that frenchman how to hand make vacumetubes if they were being mass produced like soda pop by the 20's. Very cool. Maybe I could get him to make one for me.

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