| Author | Message | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 546 Registered: 5-2002 |
I have a problem with right hand finger noise; high frequency clicks in both slap and finger style. I'm not going to change my right hand technique just to get rid of the noise since I would be also giving up a lot of positive attributes of the technique. I've tried numerous neck relief, bridge and nut adjustments to no avail. Obviously if I roll the treble off it goes away, but I like my tone too much to do that. So I'm wondering, what effect does string tension and/or string gauge have on finger noise? Has anyone noticed a reduction in finger noise when going to a higher tension string or a thicker gauge string? | ||
| kayo
Junior Username: kayo Post Number: 32 Registered: 10-2002 |
Dave Interesting topic - I've been dealing with that for years - with both Alembic and non Alembic bases (MusicMan, Aria Pro, Ibanez) - but the truth is - the awesome Alembic electronics have made this a more prevalant issue (now I only play Alembic - though I am about to purchase a Ritter as my second ax). That is both a good and bad thing - as I am sure you will agree. At the end of the day - the bad side to me is for the most part a non-issue. The approaches I've taken to address the issue are: * switched strings - hated it - my heavy handed slap and pop technique requires the time and endurance tested design of either DR's or Rotosounds. Other strings go flat too fast, or break too fast (the D & G strings). I tend to break a G string about every 2 days when I play as much as I'd like to, and when I don't play as much, or focus on walking vs slapping, my strings go flat in about 4-5 days * tried going to all tube amplification - got rid of Trace Elliot, got rid of GK, tried Ampeg and Boogie - though they did deliver some intersting and useful sounds - could not really capture the type of tonal quality that I prefer for my heavy handed slap - I tried hybrid (Eden WT 800) and that is where I have settled. I get the edge I want for slap without the overwhelming brittleness that I had noticed with straight solid state. * another advantage is having some EQ functionality available - not for sound coloring -but for identifying the particular bandwidth of the brittleness where the finger noise and clicks occur so you can cut that frequency just enough to taper it a notch * lastly, I have been experimenting with cabinets. Just as with amps, cabinets can lend themselves to a predisposition for bringing out or emphasizing certain tonal qualities. Some cabinets with very wide frequency reproduction capabilties either don't handle transients well / tend to be brittle - whereas others that don't have much of a wide frequency range at all fail at delivering the kind of tone I prefer (no edge or bite). If I had to pick one over the other - I'll take the brittle cab and work around it vs taking the flatter cab and not being able to get "that" sound at all. Ideally I am looking to match a flat cab with a brittle cab (I have the Bag End Q10BXD - brittle & crisp) and I am considering introducing an Ampeg, ACME or EBS cab to round my sound out As far as the gauges - I have experimented with those too - it was a very hard tranistion for me. Lighter strings didn't project, sustain or respond with the "meatiness" I am used to (not to mention they break quicker), and heavier gauge strings did just the same in the opposite direction - however, there is less brittelness with the heavier gauge. The trade off for me was more than I was willing to sacrifice. I use 45,65,85,105 (or 80 on the A string if using rotosounds but then my right hand doesn't adjust well to the asymetry between the E & A, or the A and D) If you can handle the heavier gauge - this should taper some of that brittleness for you. Someone got me to try some Thomastik Infelds (pyramids?) - and depite the fact that the gauge was really whacky (I can't remember what they were) they responded as if they were perfectly balanced - I was blown away. But they didn't last very long and were very expensive - so I went back to old (and cheap) faithful Good luck - let me know what you end up with - I may try it too | ||
| bsee
Member Username: bsee Post Number: 58 Registered: 3-2004 |
Hmm. Clicks seems like an odd thing to get from right hand action (assuming you're right handed...). I used to get noise from fingers rubbing across roundwound strings on my Modulus with the EMG electronics, and short of cutting the treble, there was nothing I could do about it. I just wouldn't have characterized them as clicks. Clicks makes me think of the noise of a string hitting a fret. Do you think that the noise is in a small enough frequency range that you could cut it out with a notch filter without really affecting the rest of your tone? If I had a 15-30 band EQ lying around, I might plug through it and see if I could ID the offensive frequency range. If that seems to work, then I would look at some quality hardware to make a permanent solution. Maybe an SF-2 could do the job? | ||
| hollis
Advanced Member Username: hollis Post Number: 209 Registered: 11-2003 |
Dave, You've probably already tried this but...Do you have room to adjust you pickups down a little? Would it affect your sound too much to back the them a hair or two lower? That might help.... (Message edited by hollis on May 14, 2004) | ||
| adriaan
Advanced Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 232 Registered: 6-2002 |
Dave, Not sure about your electronics, but if you have a Q switch try to set it flat. I found the "on" position on my Spoiler (+8dB) just too squeaky/peaky/agressive to my taste, and am having it replaced with a gentler arrangement (along with a non-click panpot). Other than that, Hollis' suggestion about lowering the pickups could be just the thing - it was the one adjustment you didn't mention. | ||
| alembic76407
Advanced Member Username: alembic76407 Post Number: 294 Registered: 5-2002 |
Dave, I had the same problem on my Epic and I did lower the pickups alittle and that did the trick, that stopped the squeaking with the left hand and popping with the right hand David T | ||
| kayo
Junior Username: kayo Post Number: 33 Registered: 10-2002 |
Leave it to the members of this forum - they will always keep you honest. I did forget to mention the gain settings and the pickup height. I also did this - and it only occured to me after I noted that my due to heavy right hand technique, my thumb was striking the string hard enough (and the neck pickup was high enough) that they were making contact with each other - causing damage to the pickup casing as well as introducing an added (and unwanted) sound element into my signal. I did drop the pickup height just beyond where the contact was being made - and then compensated for it by raising the gain in the back cavity of the bass. I still get the finger noise, but not as prominent. One last note - I also slightly modified (more accurately, became more finessed in my technique). A little of this - a little of that - ALAS - problem solved. | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 547 Registered: 5-2002 |
In response to all of your generous suggestions: My strings are Thomastik Jazz Rounds and I absolutely love them. I would hate to have to replace them for, in my opinion, and for the way I play, their playability, tone and durability surpass anything else I've played. Different amps and speakers don't help, as I will adjust the tone until I get "my" tone. The notch filter idea is one that I've considered but not yet tried. And I do have a 30-band EQ in the basement. So I should give it a try and see if it works. Of course if it does, that's one more thing to add to the rack; but I guess that would be preferable to changing strings. I already have an SF-2 in my rack and considerable experimentation did not eliminate the noise without significantly impairing my tone. The rolloff from the filter settings is too broad. The 30-band EQ idea would probably affect a smaller range of frequencies. Of course it may also adversely affect intended harmonics and muted notes. Yes, I've tried adjusting the pickup heights and it hasn't helped. My neck pickup is currently set quite low. Currently my main bass is a Spoiler (my Essence is out in California for a while); and my main setting for the Q switch is the "off" position. Again, except for the finger noise, I love my tone. So far, any change to amps, speakers, SF-2, Q, etc. significant enough to affect the finger noise also affects my tone. With the finger noise problem in mind I recently watched some videos I have of Marcus Miller and Victor Wooten. I do not think that I am striking the strings any more aggressively, or with a steeper angle of attack, than they. So at this point, given the above suggestions, I will (1) attempt to lower the pickups even further and (2) retrieve the 30-band EQ from the PA rack in the basement. Will let you know of any progress. Thanks for the responses! | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 548 Registered: 5-2002 |
Well I'm back. First I lowered the pickups to their lowest positions. This did clean up the noise a good bit but it did not eliminate it, and it even seemed to highlight the clicking. It also of course reduced output which I compensated for elsewhere. And it of course changed the tone somewhat. Next I added the 30-band EQ. First I started taking out the high frequencies until the clicking had been reduced; 20kHz, then 16, then 12.5, then 10. But that ruined the tone. I tried compensating with the SF-2 but couldn't get my tone back. Then I started taking them out one at at time. This was more effective. Taking either the 12.5 or the 10 out did reduce the clicking noise without too much damage to the tone. I settled on the 12.5 and tweeked the SF-2 a little until I had a reasonable tone. There's still clicking but it's not as bad as it was. So I would say progress was made. But there's something strange about adding a 30-band EQ to your rack just to get rid of finger noise. I'll practice with this for a while and see what I think. It will probably take a good bit of adjusting before I can come to any conclusions. | ||
| dadabass2001
Intermediate Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 135 Registered: 6-2002 |
Dave, a good variable notch filter or parametric would probably do the job also. Just my 2¢ worth. Mike | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 551 Registered: 5-2002 |
Mike; I previously tried putting a preamp with a parametric in the effects loop, but it didn't work as well as the graphic EQ did tonight. Any suggestions on a variable notch filter; I've never tried one of those. | ||
| dadabass2001
Intermediate Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 136 Registered: 6-2002 |
Dave, I know Shure Bros. used to make one for PA adjustment, about the same size as an M-267 mixer. I believe when I saw the Grateful Dead in Iowa during the Wall of Sound years (mid 70s), the FOH sound was running thru something like 3 or 4 M-67 mixers bussed together. Shure makes some good stuff (DUH!)  Mike | ||
| hasse
New Username: hasse Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2004 |
I don’t know if this will work. Split the signal in high and low frequencies and use a compressor on the high frequencies then bring the two signals back together. Set the crossover frequence at 8000-10000 Hz where the problems starts. Clicks are a wery short sound so I would adjust the compressor to quick attack and releace times. Best regards Hasse | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 556 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hasse; this is an intriguing suggestion. I've saved your message to my desktop so I can reread it when I'm ready to give this a try. Thanks. | ||
| gbarchus
Member Username: gbarchus Post Number: 69 Registered: 6-2002 |
I've used a Furman Sound PQ3 (there's now a 4 for how many bands) parametric between my F2B and power amp. It's very clean and you can punch it in and out. Gale | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 560 Registered: 5-2002 |
I stand corrected; after looking at the Furman, it does appear that it is adjustable enough to do the same "notching" that the graphic EQ is doing. | ||
| adriaan
Advanced Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 237 Registered: 6-2002 |
Dave, The #1 question in troubleshooting: when did the problem first occur? And question #2: you probably made a change immediately before the problem arose, what was it? #3 must be: have you isolated the source of the problem? Try your bass with another rig to rule out your rig, and another bass with your rig to rule out your bass. Some thoughts on troubleshooting your bass: Could this be the thing where the Alembic pots need to do a bit of self-cleaning? Just turn them all the way up and all the way down a few times - remember to switch off the whole rig beforehand. The same applies if you have an Alembic pre-amp. And the one that we all forget: did you try putting in a fresh 9V battery? Some thoughts on troubleshooting the rig: what kind of rig are you using? If it's one that has a tweeter, what kind? If it has a cross-over (perhaps built into the cab) and it's been with you for a number of years then perhaps there could be a problem with an electric component (leaky capacitors come to mind). Try eliminating/replacing components in your signal chain, preferably the simple ones first (instrument cable!) and then work back from the cabs to your pre-amp. Happy hunting! | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 567 Registered: 5-2002 |
Adriaan, now that I think about it, the earliest I can remember noticing this is maybe 10 years ago, give or take a couple years; beyond that I just can't remember. It has existed over multiple basses, amps, cabs and string brands. I can't recall when I started playing light gauge strings; that may be a constant. And that is where I started with this thread, wondering if maybe string gauge or string tension might be a factor. But I do love my Thomastiks. As mentioned above, another consideration is right hand technique; if I used only a light touch, the problem would be largely eliminated. But I use a variety of right hand techniques, including aggressively digging in on walking style and different slap techniques. As mentioned above, in watching videos of other bass players, I don't see where their techniques are less aggressive; yet I don't hear any extraneous noise. (Marcus Miller is I think a good example here.) Another consideration is that it's all in my head, but others have noticed it too. A year or two ago I played a recording, on which I was the bass player, for a friend who's first response was "what's all that clicking?" These posts have made me really think about the problem; so I am very appreciative to all of you. I still plan to try Hasse's suggestion of using a crossover to send the high end to a compressor; I've been thinking about it a lot and that should at least be an intersting experiment (though I'm thinking it might adversly affect the sound of snapping the G string). And I'll continue to adjust the setup and my technique. (Message edited by davehouck on May 17, 2004) | ||
| adriaan
Advanced Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 238 Registered: 6-2002 |
Dave, it sure doesn't look as if anything is really wrong with the bass or the rig. It has to be the combination of a heavy-handed righthand technique, the string gauges (unfortunately TI doesn't give you any options) low string height and little neck relief - from where I'm sitting, what you hear is probably the strings hitting the top frets. Sure you can have super low action, and have a near-straight neck, and it sounds sweet, but those fret clicks are annoying. My Spoiler came to me like that, and now I've raised the action a fraction, and loosened the truss rods a tiny bit. It plays a little less easy now, but it certainly took care of the fret clicks. | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 569 Registered: 5-2002 |
Adriaan; I'm thinking you are right. Currently the nuts on both truss rods on my Spoiler are loose; there is some bow in the neck but not a lot. I'm guessing the light tension Thomastiks might not be helping much. When I get my Essence back, I'll compare the relief on the two basses. The bridge on the Spoiler is currently what I think of as pretty high; the distance between the top of the 24th fret and the bottom of the E string is currently about .086" (2.1844mm). Clearly though, the sound of a note fretted at the 24th fret is much different from one fretted further back. I'll experiment more with the setup and see what conclusions I can draw. | ||
| adriaan
Advanced Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 240 Registered: 6-2002 |
Dave, 2 mm string height on the E at the 24th fret is not high by my standards. You'll be surprised how well an Alembic will play with a relatively high action. - But the truss rod nuts should not be loose, I think. Also, do you have the 32" TIs or the long scale ones? Their 32" sets are a bit heavier than their 34" sets. I have the wrapper for my new set of JazzFlats here, it also lists the tension for the JazzRounds and it's a bit up and down from string to string between the two scales: = 32" = E .093" 28.95 lbs A .069" 28.10 lbs D .056" 33.28 lbs G .042" 30.42 lbs total: 120.75 lbs = 34" = E .089" 27.99 lbs A .068" 29.54 lbs D .051" 30.20 lbs G .043" 34.61 lbs total: 122.34 lbs Of course this is when you have the set installed at the correct scale length. For the JazzFlats, they have the same string gauges for the two scales, except the E is .100 on 34" and .106 on 32", and they list with much higher tension on the long scale (4 to 5 pounds each), except for the E string. Not sure if that helps you ... I'm about to move a set of 34" JazzFlats from my fretless Epic to my Spoiler, see what comes out.. | ||
| keavin
Advanced Member Username: keavin Post Number: 371 Registered: 12-2002 |
Actually finger noise (to me) is kinda tasteful, it brings out the "alembic sound" in my bass. | ||
| adriaan
Advanced Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 241 Registered: 6-2002 |
Keavin, I agree about the finger noise. It's when you get fret clicks without hitting anywhere near hard, that's annoying to have. | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 570 Registered: 5-2002 |
Adriaan; I have the 32" Jazz Rounds on my 32" Spoiler. Keavin; I also agree. A certain amount of finger noise can be nice; it provides a percussive element to the note. This is especially nice in muted notes. But as Adriaan states, too much finger noise is annoying and detracts from the overall sound. | ||
| frank_orlando
Junior Username: frank_orlando Post Number: 38 Registered: 8-2002 |
Dave, I have the same problem. You are describing fret clicking and not "string noise". I also play with a very percussive right hand finger style. In addition, my left hand hits the strings hard when I finger a note...almost like a hammer-on technique. This also adds fret clicks. The result is good and bad. I have an interesting sound that is bright and full of piano like overtones but I GET FRET CLICKS LIKE CRAZY IF I DON'T DO THE FOLLOWING. First, I set my relief between .018 and .020 at the E string 8th fret. It is about .014 on the G string 8th fret. I use a feeler gage to measure this. Second, I set my action at the 12th fret for 1/8" on the E and 3/32" on the G. I measure this with a steel machinist ruler that is graduated in 1/32" increments so I get an accurate reading. Third, heavier gage strings require more tension and are less likely to click. I am using round wounds, either DR Hi-Beams or GHS Boomers .105 - .045. I don't go any lighter on the gage. I still get a bit of click on the A string but it is tolerable and only when I REALLY dig in. If I raise the action another 32nd of an inch it goes away but I like it at 1/8" for now. I play a short scale Essence and a short scale custom with Essence electronics. I play with the Q switch on and the Q tone all the way to bright. The pick-up selector is in the middle. My Ampeg is set pretty bright and I use a 15 and 410 SVT Classic cabs. I can give you more on my amp settings if it is of any interest. If your truss rod nuts are loose then it may be time for a heat bend of the neck to get the relief back. Heavier strings will add some relief too. Set-up is a personal thing so you may not like my numbers but it does work without having to change your sound, eliminate frequencies, etc. Good luck. Frank | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 572 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks Frank; I raised the bridge a little this afternoon and practiced for a while. Didn't help much, but I thought I would try and gradually move the action up some and see how it feels and sounds. | ||
| dnburgess
Advanced Member Username: dnburgess Post Number: 264 Registered: 1-2003 |
I find I get really horrible string noises if I don't keep the finger nails on my right hand really short. I clip them before every rehearsal or gig. | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 573 Registered: 5-2002 |
Good point Dave; but I keep my trimmed too, that's not the problem here. | ||
| keavin
Advanced Member Username: keavin Post Number: 374 Registered: 12-2002 |
I, (presonally) love the 'finger nail sound',it gives lots of presence to the note. | ||
| keavin
Advanced Member Username: keavin Post Number: 375 Registered: 12-2002 |
I, (personally) love the 'finger nail sound',it gives lots of presence to the note. | ||
| 811952
Intermediate Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 179 Registered: 10-2003 |
I play hard with the action relatively high and the pickups a bit low. When I'm banging on it, I tend to do it near the end of the fingerboard, so it really sounds more like I'm slapping it (a la Entwistle). I love the ringing highs that happen. "Hey You" off The Wall has some very tasteful strings-against-the-pickup noise during the nice fretless solo section... John | ||
| jazzyvee
Intermediate Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 112 Registered: 6-2002 |
I sometimes get this clicking noise when i'm playing my bass as well. I did post a message about it a while back. Anyway when I really concentrated on what I was acutally doing. It reminded me of some similar problems I had when I first went touring with a reggae band and having to play guitar at high volumes. Forgive the digression here as there is a point to it. There is a crucial point in playing the chop in the rhythm guitar for reggae which is that the timing between when you place your fingers on the strings for the chord, when you push the strings to the frets and when you actually strike the chord with the plectrum. Now the problem i had there was that when playing at high volumes the mere action of putting the strings to the frets made the chord ring out before you actually strike the strings with the pick. I had to work really hard so that the timing between those two events were negligible so that now there is no ring of the chord before i play it. Now I noticed that when playing the alembic bass that when you fret the note the action of the right hand finger, pressing the string to sound the note causes the string to touch the fretboard/fret before you actully complete the pluck of the string, hence giving the clicking sound. Just to prove it i played something by curling the fingers on my right hand so they were just underneath the string rather than over the top ( a bit like classical guitar playing)_, and i had no clicking sound at all even when playing hard and at high volumes. I have now modified my playing to a lighter touch to reduce the chance of that clicking and have even lowered the action which has improved the playability. That said it's much less noticeable if you roll some of the top end off your sound. Also i love the clicking sound when i'm playing hard like Clarkee does... it adds a nice percussive edge. | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 576 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks JV for an illustrative post. So, if the click occurs when the plucking finger first touches the string and before the note is actually played, then Hasse's suggestion of running the high frequencies to a compressor and adjusting the settings for quick attack and release might indeed help. | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 592 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hasse; about your suggestion to try a crossover with the high-pass set at 8000-10000 and running the high signal to a compressor. I tried using the crossover on the F-1X; the highest setting on the F-1X being 3.3kHz. At that setting the results were inconclusive. I set the compressor up as you suggested with quick attack and release times; but with the high-pass setting at 3.3 the compressor was reducing tone as well as clicks. I have a Rane three way crossover that I used with my PA, but the highest high-pass setting on the Rane is 3.5kHz; so I don't think it would work any better. I think your idea is a good one; but I just don't have a crossover that goes that high. | ||
| 88persuader
Junior Username: 88persuader Post Number: 32 Registered: 5-2004 |
I had this problem and solved it by going to a heavy gage string. I was also able to lower my string action at the same time making slapping more easy and accurate. Took just a little left hand adjustment to the added string tension but it totally solved the problem. And it CAN BE a real problem if you go through a good front end 3 or 4 way system. Every click of the string against the neck of the bass can sound like a hammer on metal if you're sound man has you jacked up. Try heavy gage strings ... I love the Freedom they gave me. | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 611 Registered: 5-2002 |
I think heavier gauge strings will probably be the best solution; but I would hate to give up the Thomastik Jazz Rounds I'm using now. I've been gradually raising the action on my Spoiler, but it's just too high now; I'm experiencing an increase in left hand fingering errors. I've also been experimenting with my settings on the F-1X and SF-2, and keeping my eyes open for a good parametric EQ. When my Essence gets back from California it will have a new set of Thomastiks on it. I'll play it for a while before making a decision to try a different set of strings. | ||
| adriaan
Advanced Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 248 Registered: 6-2002 |
I think I can confirm the string guage factor: my Spoiler came with a 40-95 set of roundwounds, low action and a lot of fret clicking. I've put on an old set of long scale TI Jazz Flats (43-89), with a slightly higher action that took care of the clicking with the roundwounds, but the sound has gotten a bit dark so it's hard to tell if there's any clicking going on. Next up on the Spoiler, some nickel D'Addario Slowounds 45-100. I once wanted to put a set of long scale Slowounds on my 34" Epic, but the A string barely reached the post of the tuner. So the Spoiler is getting a long scale set. Will try if I can set the action lower again. | ||
| son_of_magni
Junior Username: son_of_magni Post Number: 43 Registered: 1-2004 |
Well I have to say your biggest problem is probably those pesky frets. Why not remove them and be done with it? ;-) | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 614 Registered: 5-2002 |
Adriaan; let us know the results of the string change. Magni; Ha!! Somehow I'm thinking that might affect the tone just a little <g>. |
