| Author | Message | ||
| redcloud
Junior Username: redcloud Post Number: 20 Registered: 5-2011 |
I am new to this forum and do not wish to cause any offense, so please don't " flame me". I have been perusing many of the threads on the site and especially the ones in the FTC section. I came across one in which a guitar had some asymmetry in the positioning of the tuning machines. There were several comments about the fact that inevitably a custom/ handmade instrument will have some subtle imperfections. Perhaps, but the reason I chose to own 4 Alembic's and now a custom was Alembic's reputation for perfection. And, these are expensive instruments. As context, I offer this short story. A year or so ago I had an Acoustic guitar made by Kevin Ryan, one of the best in the world. It was his "top of the line" model in Brazilian Rosewood. I had selected some very hard to come by "old school" Brazilian. He had essentially completed the guitar and was doing the final finishing, when he came across a small defect in the wood on the side. He emailed moe apologetically (as if he had anything to be at fault for) and said he had to start over. He only had one set of wood left that he had saved for many years that had that "old school"/perfectly quarter sawn attribute. The set was even more spectacular than my original set which was very special. Kevin set about making a new guitar because of his own personal ethic. How does it work when a custom guitar is ordered and paid for but has flaws the customer is unhappy with? | ||
| mike1762
Senior Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 893 Registered: 1-2008 |
Hey Scott I don't presume to speak for Alembic, but I do know of a few cases where mistakes (or at least miscommunications) were made and they did indeed "start over". Following the FTC threads is enlightening as far as giving you some appreciation for what goes into building one of these instruments and why they cost as much as they do. The fact that they don't pull those threads that illustrate their occasional fallibility speaks VOLUMES about their integrity. Some of the typical features of an Alembic might tend to accentuate (expected?) subtle variations. The occasional uncentered tail-piece would never be noticed on most instrument. But if you have a multi-laminate neck AND a "pointy" tail piece, the center laminate and center point on the tail piece just screams "PUT ME HERE!!! So what do you do in that case? Alembic has chosen "function" over "form" in those situations, but perhaps they would be better served by allowing the customer to make the call when some compromise has to occur. My Alembics were all bought in "previously loved" condition, so I had no expectations otherwise. If I ever do "pull the trigger" on a custom built dream bass, I'm not sure how particular I would be on the form of the final product. | ||
| redcloud
Junior Username: redcloud Post Number: 21 Registered: 5-2011 |
I certainly wasn't intending to imply that Alembic doesn't have a high sense of quality when it comes to their products. | ||
| s_wood
Advanced Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 333 Registered: 5-2002 |
My own experience has been that the folks at Alembic are fanatical in their pursuit of the customer's wishes. On one of my earlier custom orders the neck profile was not perfect in my subjective opinion, though it certainly did comply with the specs that I provided. We discussed the matter and, at no cost to me, Mica offered to have the neck sanded down, reshaped and refinished. It's now perfect. On a later custom order I requested a cherry sunburst finish. When the bass was painted Mica sent a picture, and in my subjective opinion there was not enough amber at the center of the instrument. Once again, at no additional cost, Mica had the bass refinished. Once again, it is now perfect. In both cases the basses were originally made exactly to my imprecise specs at first, in both cases I didn't like what they made, and in both cases Alembic did what ever was necessary to produce an instrument that was exactly what I wanted. You can't ask for more! (Message edited by s_wood on June 12, 2011) | ||
| tbrannon
Senior Member Username: tbrannon Post Number: 1384 Registered: 11-2004 |
I can remember several instruments in FTC threads that looked great in raw wood form, but once the sanding and shaping started, flaws in the wood were exposed. In those instances, the instrument was scrapped and started over. | ||
| redcloud
Junior Username: redcloud Post Number: 22 Registered: 5-2011 |
I was just asking a question and your responses have strengthened my confidence. Thanks! | ||
| pierreyves
Senior Member Username: pierreyves Post Number: 865 Registered: 11-2006 |
then who can explain to me why I had no proposal for the center position of my keys? Moreover, no explanation, no reply, nothing. I think the holes are indeed correct with respect to the position of the strings and the neck is true that this is not very visible just like that, but if the holes were made to the alignment of strings is correct, this means that the peghead is not aligned. It is true that I will not waited a year longer, but it would have seemed to have a proper explanation or proposal. While some people here laugh at me, no problem it does them good. But others seem to understand. | ||
| pierreyves
Senior Member Username: pierreyves Post Number: 866 Registered: 11-2006 |
And this poses a real problem when the FTC customer lives across the Atlantic. If I had been close, I immediately pointed out the imperfections and could have followed closely the work. | ||
| dannobasso
Senior Member Username: dannobasso Post Number: 1370 Registered: 3-2004 |
I have ordered more than my share of customs, several of which were never made before. Each time their care and generosity was very much appreciated. I ordered a custom spoiler 6 and when it arrived it had pickups different from what I thought I ordered. Without hesitation Mica took the bass back and they remade it. My last custom was made with care, innovation and was delivered when it was ready and not before. Communicate clearly and work with the artisans there and they will deliver a great instrument. Custom orders may not suit everyone's temperament so if you are a difficult person in the rest of life this process may not be for you. Then again you may enjoy it a great deal. The ftc is an added treat and there are very few folk who do it. Also if you already have a few Alembics around, the wait should not be so bad. | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 2454 Registered: 6-2002 |
Thanks for putting this up RedCloud, i think is going to be one of the most interesting threads here for a while. I think that a person who commissions a custom instrument is already showing that they are someone who's standards are above the norm since there are many non custom instruments around that offer excellent build quality, tone and playability. So if a company, whoever the manufacturer is wants to put themselves in that market as a provider of custom instruments, they should be aware of the needs of this customer which is an expectation of exceptional level of quality at the price being charged for their instrument, and should provide that. The finished product should be such that the instrument meets or exceeds the expectation of the buyer. If we can look at the instrument from a distance and it looks amazing, then you would expect when it is scrutinised close up, it still meets the requirements of the customer. When this does not happen then the buyer is fully entitled to challenge the builder to justify the discrepancy. At this price level, perfection is what the buyer perceives it to be, notwithstanding technical limitations. I do believe Alembic are incredibly dedicated to realising their customers dreams and in most cases I'm sure that they achieve it. When they don't then, how they then deal with this situation will show more about their credibility. Pierreyves FTC thread has been very educational and I will certainly be watching this thread carefully. Jazzyvee Jazzyvee | ||
| oujeebass
Intermediate Member Username: oujeebass Post Number: 180 Registered: 10-2002 |
The ones that Alembic do toss over final inspections reveling flaws shouldn't be tossed at all. They should sell them at deep discounts and call them Blembics. | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 949 Registered: 11-2003 |
I visited Alembic in 2006, and indeed they have a bunch of instruments that for one reason or other did not meet their quality standards. Some they keep to have on hand as "mules" for tests on any number of things, others they keep around (I suspect) as examples of what is not acceptable. Still others are one offs, employee instruments that didn't turn out right, etc. As a cook/chef, I don't believe perfection is possible. If it was, everyone in every profession would achieve it. Then the world would be a very boring place IMHO. The pursuit of perfection, however, is very real and something I strive for everyday in and out of the kitchen. That pursuit motivates me to do my best every day. I'm sure it is the same with all of us, to include the good people at Alembic as well. Alan | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1710 Registered: 9-2002 |
Scott, I let me relate my 'custom build' experience: I, too, first came to ALEMBIC via a previously-driven axe, the inestimable BigRedBass. I found this forum, and made the inevitable calls to Santa Rosa and got to know Susan, and Mica, and Mary. Like most, I started with the inevitable 'why does my tone knob sound like a wah-wah?' and went from there. I was astounded that they were treating me like I'd spent huge $$$ money with them, when in actual fact, all I did was buy a used bass that was built/shipped in 1992. This chat (in my experience, virtually flameless) of course allowed me to complete by Bachelor's in ALEMBIC, and allowed me to meet so many other like minds ( . . . well, maybe I shouldn't put it like that, out of deference to my peers' mental state . . . ) and learn a lot about my instrument and so much more. So I decided I wanted a five-string similar to the Yamaha BB's I'd liked that would also serve in place of a Sadowsky, etc. I narrowed it down to a five-string Elan, which of course I'd never seen or played before. The ideas I submitted and the whys behind them you can read in the Showcase / Elan / Tiger Emerald thread. So I spoke with Susan about it, and she translated into their shop what I wanted to have. Paid up, and contrary to most, never called to ask about it, never had an FTC thread, basically I said I'd see it when they finished it and sent it to me (bought it through Will Gunn, who I can't recommend highly enough). I had told Mica I wanted a see-thru green tint, halfway between a Hunter Green and a BP sign. No color swatches, no samples, nothing, I knew Bob would hit it. What's pertinent to this conversation: Alembic typically puts several coats of clear on a color tinted axe first, then adds the color, then many more coats of clear. This way, IF it ever has to be refinished, the wood is not stained from the color. Well, Bob wasn't satisfied with the first color shoot, so he stripped it and started over. Now bear in mind, I had NO say in this. Hell, I didn't even know he did it till much later. But he didn't like it, and that was enough. The color was correctly applied, it just wasn't what they thought I wanted, and that was enough to send it back through by their decision, as I knew nothing about it, had not said I didn't like it, hadn't seen it myself. Of course, when it did come to me, it was exactly what I wanted. Magic, really. I had the knowledge that they do this for a living every day, so why on Earth would I want to drive them nuts when I'm not a guitar builder? I'm sure somewhere down there is a gorgeous exotic wood medicine cabinet with professional strength AlkaSeltzer and Maalox, as building an unbroken string of one-offs must be trying at times. Nothing is perfect in this world. And believe me, there are people for whom perfect will never be good enough, but they've got more problems than nit-picking a given guitar to death. When I worked at Gibson, a famous guitar player ordered 6 flame-top LP's that were duplicates of the famous 1959's with his own personal preferences blended in. I did the final buff out on the six and they were as perfect as was humanly possible. They were returned a month later because the bodies were 1/16" thicker than what they spec'd. Whattya gonna do ? It's a complicated business for some, and if this one little piece is wrong or this piece is 1/2" off from where it was supposed to be, I don't know how you can fix it afterwards. It wouldn't keep me awake nights. But doing this long distance over the phone or by EMail ties up a lot of their time (. . . why is it taking so long, I've called them 57 times . . . ) and they really do stop everything occasionally to catch something you just thought up. Try doing that with another 'name' builder and see how far you get. This much access is a LOT of work for them. I can not think of anyone who tries harder to please every customer more than the Wickershams. But sometimes, as in any business, it's just not possible absolutely 100% of the time. My input would be to educate one's self as to what these are, what they do, their vibe. They are not for everybody, and that's OK. But if your vision and their culture intersect, magic is indeed possible. Now, let me go pull my rabbit out of the hat . . . . J o e y | ||
| redcloud
Junior Username: redcloud Post Number: 23 Registered: 5-2011 |
This thread is not a derisive one towards Alembic or an attack on their devotion to their work. I have had quite a lot of experience dealing with custom/handmade instruments when it comes to acoustic guitars. My experiences have all been positive thus far and have included builds with Kevin Ryan, James Olson, Michael Greenfield, Sheldon Schwartz, Sherry Park, Howard Klepper, John Walker, John Mays, Jerry Nolte, Bob Benedetto, and Tom Bills. For most of them, I have provided some specs that were essential and also given them some freedom to create. I am far from somebody who micromanages the process. Joey, I appreciate your relating your experience. I am happy that it was a good one. Yet, the original question still stands. What happens when an instrument doesn't meet expectations? The Builder's I mentioned above have a return policy. | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1712 Registered: 9-2002 |
Then my next observation would be: You need to talk to ALEMBIC directly, as I'm sure I (or any of the rest of us) would not presume to answer for them. I'd have a conversation with Susan Wickersham, or Mica when she returns from vacation. J o e y | ||
| pierreyves
Senior Member Username: pierreyves Post Number: 867 Registered: 11-2006 |
one of the problem is the communication between alembic and I, lot of times, no answers ore answers late. I dont know how, when they work. The other problem is a language problem, I use lot of time google translation or friends translation. I wrote on my FTC the machine heads position problem on the 17 th of may, at this day no answer. I dont know their date of vacation, here we dont know nothing about their work. I dont know how time Mica spend on web/mail for the club. The only thing I'm sure for her: the family in first. | ||
| redcloud
Junior Username: redcloud Post Number: 24 Registered: 5-2011 |
thanks for the responses, but I am checking out of this thread | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 996 Registered: 3-2004 |
I would advise anyone reading this thread that Alembic has always made it clear that this forum exists as a courtesy. If you really need to have an answer, then call the factory. Speaking directly to a human is the best way to get a response. They've made it abundantly clear that they are busy working on instruments first, and that the forum is a bonus. If you have a problem, I'm sure they will work with you, but you need to take it upon yourself to make contact directly. The fact that they don't edit content with the exception of inflammatory and unrelated speech, and furthermore, the fact that threads like this even exist, is a testament to their honesty. It is also true that this is a small family business. If one person is sick, then production is slowed. We're not talking about the Fender or Gibson factories. I'm sure that some people prioritize their work before their family, but Alembic doesn't. Who here doesn't love Alembic because of the fact that individuals and not a corporation build these instruments? | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 7361 Registered: 6-2000 |
If we discover a defect while working on a build, we scrap and start anew. As others have already stated, there's years of Factory to Customer threads to show when that happens, we do as I've described. The downside of that is it will add to the delivery date. I will point out that we do not claim perfection - it is something we strive for, realizing that it's not attainable and it's differently defined by different people. | ||
| redcloud
Junior Username: redcloud Post Number: 26 Registered: 5-2011 |
Thanks for the response, Mica. |
