| Author | Message | ||
| aircooled69
New Username: aircooled69 Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2003 |
Hi Guys, Just considering purchasing some new cabs for my 79 alembic series 2 short scale (w graphite neck) I am an oldskool tube head so I have purchased a Mesa Boogie Strategy 500 power amp with 2x 200w sterio output (16 tubes of tone glory in the back) I am running an old alembic FB2 pre to run this baby... I was using a Acme low B cab but it dosn't seem to get enough volume for me with the Mesa. I have been considering getting 2x 1x12 cabs to run a stereo setup... I have been looking at the Aguilar GS112, some DR Bass cabs and a few others. Do any of you guys have any experiance running a stereo setup? is there anything I should be aware of to do this... Also if anyone has suggestions on Cabs I should consider that would be great!!! YEAH ALEMBIC!!!! Mike Adelaide Australia, PS I think I have the only graphite neck S2 in Australia!!!  | ||
| xlrogue6
Member Username: xlrogue6 Post Number: 73 Registered: 8-2002 |
Don't know if Genz Benz has Aussie distribution, but based on my experience with the Neox 212 cab I'd say the 112 version would be worth a try. I also love my Boogie Scout 112 combo--the extension cab should be very happening. | ||
| wayne
Intermediate Member Username: wayne Post Number: 110 Registered: 5-2002 |
I have been extremely happy with my Bergantino HT-112. It's very clean. Seems to give me the sound of my bass, not the sound of the cabinet. C-Ya........wayne | ||
| funky4
New Username: funky4 Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2004 |
Mike, I don't have any experience running in "Stereo", but DO run 2 of the Aguilar GS112's in my rig and have been very happy with them!!!! I run mine thru a F-1X. Good playin.....chuckf | ||
| kmh364
Advanced Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 248 Registered: 9-2003 |
No worries, Mate! Try David Eden. Their stuff is top shelf. For something exotic (without the exotic price), try Sultone cabs: Custom ordered, Hand-made from real hardwoods, oil-finished (i.e., no Tolex or Rug-wrap). You can get 'em with any driver (loudspeaker) you like. Dirt cheap and absolutely gorgeous. Bill Boekhoff @ sultone.com is awesome...he is the Alembic of cabs (without the price). Ck out the site for more info. Cheers | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 506 Registered: 7-2003 |
I've been very pleased with my Dr.Bass 1260. It's loaded with a neo driver, a 6" mid plus tweeter. It will handle down to the low 30 hz's and is pretty uncolored. It doesn't have quite the natural bass that my Acme LowB-2 has, but a slight EQ boost takes care of this very easily. The high and mid is similar to the Acme, because of the 3 way design. The highs are very clean and not harsh. I also like the very light resonant signature of the 12 vs. the 10. In practical terms, find it projects both high and low end with less drop off further from the stage than either my Acme or Eden 210XST. I just got a BagEnd S18E-I and ELF processor that I'm very busy learning. After a few early glitches (and excellent customer service by BagEnd staff), I've got it humming. The clarity and lack of resonant bumps from 95hz (the upper cut off) on down (it will go to 18hz) is unbelievable. I'm looking to pick up another ELF (INFRA) 18 to add output for larger rooms. Which brings me back to my Dr. Bass 112... The addition of the Dr Bass cab for high range is soooooo sweet with the ELF rig!!. I'm definitely going to add another Dr Bass 12 for more output. I'm going to keep either the Acme or the Eden (haven't decided which yet). That way, the two Dr B's and the 210 would give me several super (and more portable) full range alternatives to the ELF set up. I certainly have no beef with Eden's 112 (or the Aguilar either) - I liked them both. But the Dr. Bass 3 way design gives you the best of both worlds. I haven't tried an Accugroove Tri 112, but except for one less tweeter (the Tri has 2), the Dr. Bass gives you the same config as the Accugroove. Recognizing Accugrooves are very high end cabs, the comparison may be bold - but the Dr. Bass costs $400 and the A-groove over $1,000. Bill | ||
| kmh364
Advanced Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 254 Registered: 9-2003 |
BTW, Bkbass (Barry) swears by Bag End cabs. Supposedly, they're based in-part or wholly on the old ELF designs that Ron Wickersham had a hand in designing. | ||
| kayo
Junior Username: kayo Post Number: 42 Registered: 10-2002 |
I use BAG End - I love 'em! I'm excited to hear about you new acquisition Bassman 10096 - that is my next target - the Infra M with the matched ELF 18" cab...... my buddy had this set up in Chicago back in 1999 and it just blew me away - how do you like it? What were the glitches you had with it? Also, I have never heard of DR bass cabs.... do you have a website address? Thanx | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 507 Registered: 7-2003 |
The technology is a bit different in the way the ELF/INFRA processor fits in your signal chain. Plus the ELF signal needs its own power amp or amp channel. The glitches were all of my own making (forgetting to switch my power amp from parallel to stereo) and normal learning curve stuff that BagEnd's tech folks helped solve in a quick phone call. One thing that will help you immeasurably is just to know that BagEnd's practical, technical documentation and set up info for ELF/INFRA on its website is not enough to answer your questions. They took a lot of stuff off their site when they switched from the ELF to the INFRA models and never replaced it with updated material. They will Email this to you when you call them. The sound from the ELF 18 is very clean, super strong and even and biased toward the bass side. I've been running the bass control on my F1-X at 11:00 and getting plenty of bass. I couldn't be more pleased with the performance I've gotten. The sub cabinet is very compact (same size as BE's smaller 18) and only 64 lb. So, for the size and weight of a 15, it provides bass performance that I've never seen surpassed. I'm playing with the configuration to use with my non-ELF speakers. The ELF M2 processor lets you use the ELF strictly as a sub (running your non-ELFs directly out the preamp to their own amp channel) or, by running your whole signal through the processor, the processor provides a very smooth crossover (at 95 hz) to blend the sub with your non-ELFs. I'm surprised at how smooth and appealing the second configuration is, but still experimenting. The Dr Bass cabs are new on the market - only a few folks I know have tried them. Marc Serio is a bassist and 20 year veteran of PA and club system design. Their website is drbasscabs.com, but is under construction (includes a price list and a few other pieces of info). I'd recommend you call him if you are interested or even curious. They are very flexible and will configure and load a cab the way you want them to. I've been very happy with my 112 and will definitely be adding another Dr Bass 112 or switching to a 212. Bill | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 752 Registered: 5-2002 |
Bill; if you are so inclined, could you please expand on your post. In particular, I would like to know more about your opinions on the XST. I haven't tried an XST, but was thinking that with the extended low range and slightly lighter weight, it would be a big improvement over the XLT. How does the XST's low end compare with the Acme? I would imagine the XST's high end, like the XLT, would be significantly different from the Acme. Is the Dr. Bass more like the Eden or the Acme? So, if you have the time and inclination, I would like to hear more of your findings on your cabinets. | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 753 Registered: 5-2002 |
Kayo; here is the site for Dr. Bass: http://www.drbasscabs.com/ | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 754 Registered: 5-2002 |
Kevin; if I may, while commonly used, the name "David Eden" is, I believe, incorrect. I have searched but cannot find any info on this; so I'm going on memory. But I believe Eden, whose first name I cannot recall, but is not David, worked at one time for SWR, then started his own company. He named his speaker cab line the "David" series after someone else, whom I also cannot recall. Thus they are Eden David speakers rather than David Eden speakers. Hopefully, someone else can fill in more detail or can find an authoritative site. | ||
| lowlife
Member Username: lowlife Post Number: 97 Registered: 12-2003 |
http:\www.eden-electronics.com Small site, but descriptive enough. Ellery (Lowlife) | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 755 Registered: 5-2002 |
I've done some more searching and my above post on the Eden name appears to be incorrect. I do have a poor memory. The name of the company is Eden. The company's founder is David Nordschow. He did not work for SWR but subcontracted to build SWR's Goliath I cabs. I little knowledge is a dangerous thing <g>! | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 1431 Registered: 9-2002 |
Mmmmm ...on the logo it says David Eden. So those are in fact 2 family names??? PTBO | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 757 Registered: 5-2002 |
Paul; I could be completely wrong about this, my memory isn't great. But I think the logo is referring to the David Series speakers of Eden Electronics; thus the "David" at the top of the logo and the "Eden" at the bottom. On the web site the speakers are described as: Eden David Series Speaker Enclosures | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 758 Registered: 5-2002 |
Paul, I just looked at my WT-800 amp and it too has the "David Eden" logo. So I'm wrong about that, and probably wrong about the whole story. So Kevin, I guess it's ok to call them David Eden cabs; at least until someone who knows more about the story than I do says different <g>. | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 1432 Registered: 9-2002 |
Yep ...now ...the story of a certain Mr. Eden working his time for SWR and contributing on the Goliath ...well ...if I were him and starting an own brand I DEFINITELY call my model a "David". Or am I too much into bible-stories now???? LOL Paul TBO | ||
| lowlife
Member Username: lowlife Post Number: 98 Registered: 12-2003 |
And while we're on the subject of Bible stories, least we forget the 'Garden of "EDEN"' (LOL) Ellery (Lowlife) | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 1434 Registered: 9-2002 |
Yep ...what will be a garden of the low frequencies too. Mmmmm ...Alembic in the garden of Eden? Okay ...who playes snake? I can impersonise an apple! HA! PTBO | ||
| lowlife
Member Username: lowlife Post Number: 99 Registered: 12-2003 |
My hand is up; I'll play the snake, hissssss, hisssss. Oh, wait, that's my amp. Everything hisses these days, my amp, my car, senior management. LOL Ellery (Lowlife) | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 1435 Registered: 9-2002 |
Somebody fancy a bite in an apple??? "I'm a man of wealth and taste" ...oh ..huhh ...skip the wealth. Paul ...you're too bad LOL | ||
| kayo
Junior Username: kayo Post Number: 43 Registered: 10-2002 |
Thanks Bill for the low down on your new set-up and the DR cabs (thank you too Dave H) - I am much obliged Kayo | ||
| kayo
Junior Username: kayo Post Number: 44 Registered: 10-2002 |
Gents Ironically enough I use the Eden WT-800 head, but am not inclined towards Eden cabinets. They are clean, and aesthetically pleasing - however, I found the frequency response range and power handling capacity not to meet my needs. However - in all fairness I have used them and they are clean and overall do not color the bass fundamentals much - pretty transparent. | ||
| kayo
Junior Username: kayo Post Number: 45 Registered: 10-2002 |
While we're on biblical references let's not forget "David & Golliath".... there could be a method to the madness on his chosen naming convention. | ||
| jagerphan84
Member Username: jagerphan84 Post Number: 66 Registered: 10-2003 |
I think that's what Paul was getting at earlier. Some of his messages may be a bit 'interesting' in format, but the point usually comes across ok. Ein bisschen Deutsch (oder Holländer) hilft einem zu verstehen. | ||
| gare
Junior Username: gare Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2003 |
Also try Usmusiccorp.com for the Eden info, they bought them out a while back,they also own Washburn and Parker Gary | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 1437 Registered: 9-2002 |
Oh ...huh ...hep-hep ...youhou over here in BELGIUM. I know I talk funny. I am excercising my "apple in the garden of Eden" impersonisation ...oh ...oooops wrong thread. PTBO | ||
| gare
Junior Username: gare Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2003 |
Bill..if you're also inclined could you elaborate more on the Bag End ? Do you know what the low end is without the processor ? Or,how does it sound in general without the processor ? I see you're in the Milwuakee area, Uncle Bob's in West Allis had 4 used S18e's 2 weeks ago. thx Gary | ||
| kayo
Junior Username: kayo Post Number: 46 Registered: 10-2002 |
Gare On the Bag End 18's, here is the low down: S18D: 50 hz - 2Khz 300W RMS or 600W peak S18BD: 36hz - 2Khz 300W RMS or 600W peak S18ED: *18hz - 100hz 400W RMS - 800W peak *(this spec is only valid when used in conjunction with the Infra processor, formerly the ELF product line) Hope that helps! | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 508 Registered: 7-2003 |
Dave: Here are my impressions of the Acme vs Eden XST vs the Dr Bass 112 (3 way). First, let me tell you that, for my entire playing career (until this year), I've played through crap. So my ears are probably not as good at evaluating sound as others here. As to high and mid detail, the Acme and Dr Bass stand above the Eden, for the reasons you'd expect. On this criterion, I like the Dr Bass a bit better than the Acme, partly because I like the high midrange sound out of the 6" in the Dr Bass more than the 5" in the Acme. The Dr. Bass has a more open, airier sound in the high-mid, where the Acme sounds a little too restrained to me. The tweeters are similar, but actually, the XST's tweet is the clearest of all - none are in the least bit harsh. For low end, bear in mind I don't own a 5 string at this moment, so I can't speak to anything below E. The Acme and Eden sound similar - both go to the very bottom without breaking up or any unevenness. The Acme is little bit more solid at the same volume as the Eden, but drier sounding, where the Eden is more rounded and pleasant to my ears. The Dr. Bass is loaded with an Eminence neomydium driver, making it the lightest of the 3 cabs at 44 lb (Eden is heaviest at 59 and the Acme weighs 50 lb.). The neo driver sounds much more open than the 10" pairs and I'd estimate the bottom (at similar volume and EQ) sounds a little less full than the bottom end on the Acme or Eden. However, with the bottom end tweaked up, the 12 is solid, does not break up on the low end (remember, it's a 4 string) and has a pleasant, rounded tone. It may just be my taste, but I prefer the cleaner, more open sound of the 12, plus its added ability to project its full range over the 10s. Not everyone may share this bias. It's sort of like a super high quality 15, but with much more faithful tone production in the high-mid and none of the lag effect of the larger speaker. The Eden is clearly more efficient than the Acme, but EQ's about the same. Both produce plenty of bass, but reaches the same volume at 11:30 that the Acme gets at about 12:30 on my power amp. The Dr. Bass sounds like it's operating at about the same efficency as the Eden. I wish I could compare first hand to the Eden XLT, but don't have easy access to one. Gary: The ELF processor is factory set for a low end of 18hz, but this is easily adjusted up or down by switching plug in resistors (BagEnd can furnish a PDF explaining and diagramming all you need). I'm planning to increase the cut off on mine to about 25hz, as recommended by the ELF Guide. That way, less amp power will go to nonmusical (ie low string-handling sound and rumble) sound, leaving better headroom. The ELF cabs sound horrible without the processor. Keep in mind, the cab is a 3 cubic foot, sealed box. I live pretty close to Uncle Bob's (my Eden came from there). I was actually planning to try out two ELF cabs with my rack to see if I'd have any power problems adding a second ELF 18. The last time I was in they had about 15 ELF 18s, including a rig they were selling for some guy with 10 ELF 18s, plus processor for $2,500 (that's $250 a cab, folks - anyone interested in forming a buying consortium?). Bill | ||
| bob
Advanced Member Username: bob Post Number: 276 Registered: 11-2002 |
Bill - if you ever get around to playing with the resistors, to limit the low end of your ELF 18, let me know how it goes. I don't really feel the need right now, but this thing does seem pretty thirsty to me, so I'm curious. But I do have a B string, so don't cut off too much, okay? If I didn't already have one, I'd be tempted to join the consortium - but I'll also second your recommendation to not even think about using one of these cabs without the processor. Maybe it's stated or implied here earlier, but how much power are you feeding this thing? Driving two of them seems a little optimistic (I hope so, I really don't need another one...) | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 760 Registered: 5-2002 |
Bill; thanks for a very helpful and informative review! | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 509 Registered: 7-2003 |
Bob: I'll be able to tell you how the resistor switch worked later today. I'm going to boost the cutoff to 25hz. Hopefully, that won't meaningfully impair any lows from a 5 string, either. I'm feeding the one cab 425w (@8ohm) from a QSC PLX 2402. The power amp is running wide open, and there is a slight tendency to clip at super high volume, but nothing I can't tweak to avoid (still with lots of clean output and high volume). I definitely share your observation that adding a second cab may push the limits. I've been considering an upgrade to a 3402. I'll know for sure if that's important to do once I test my current rig with the two cabs in the store. What kind of non-Elf cab(s) are you running with your ELF sub? Does your processor have the crossover feature? If so, are you using it or just running the ELF as a freestanding sub? You aren't possibly using an Alembic F1-X? If you are, I'd love to know which preamp outputs you are using and how you have the crossover set. | ||
| dela217
Senior Member Username: dela217 Post Number: 423 Registered: 6-2002 |
I use a Bag End 2x10 for my main rig. I find it sounds GREAT in some environments. Some it sounds terrible. The box is rear ported, so placement is important. When I use it near a back wall I get wonderful low end. Everyone comments on the low end that comes from that small box. But when it is more freestanding, such as outside, no lows whatsoever. I would love to try out one of them Eden XST's. The specs are impressive. But I wonder how they compare sonically. As far as the power handling of the Bag End goes, It can take it. I sometimes have to run that 2X10 way too loud to keep up with horn sections or rude guitar players. No complaints there, just that sometimes no low end. | ||
| gare
Junior Username: gare Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-2003 |
Kayo and Bill..thx for the info,much appreciated. My plan is to go to Bag End cabinets 2x10 + 1x18,when I saw those cab's I thought..hmmmm.. but couldn't find that much detailed information. Thx for the review on the Dr Bass cab's too. Sign me up for the consortium ! Gary | ||
| dadabass2001
Intermediate Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 197 Registered: 6-2002 |
Bill, Excellent report on the Acme, Dr Bass, Bag End comparison. I'm starting to feel like I need to order a Low B2 to replace my Goliath III Jr/ Crate 1- 15 set up. I'm playing small enough clubs to warrant just a single cab, plus everything runs out through the PA anyway. PB has had a good soundman for two years now, and I believe we understand each other on FOH tone and balance.  Mike | ||
| bob
Advanced Member Username: bob Post Number: 279 Registered: 11-2002 |
Bill: my other cabinet is a D10B-D (deep red 2x10, no tweeter), and sorry, I'm not using an F1-X - an SF-2 is my preamp. I started with the 2x10 after the Infra-M, but for several months now have been bypassing that and running it full range. That means there's more overlap from about 35 or 40 to 95 Hz than there should be, but that's not a bad place for a little extra output :-) and it actually sounds smoother to me than limiting it via the crossover. Some of that may have to do with my cabinet placements, filter settings, etc., but I had a sense that there was a bit of a dip at the crossover point (I was tempted to play with the resistors for that to overlap more, but never got to that either). One of the things I like about this is that if I ever do get out of my living room, it would be easy to choose between taking one or two cabs. Also, I have things set up right now so that each channel of the SF-2 is dedicated to one cabinet/amp channel, which I'm finding interesting at the moment. -Bob | ||
| kayo
Junior Username: kayo Post Number: 47 Registered: 10-2002 |
Bill - Wow, Uncle Bob's is where I ordered my custom Rogue! Do you live in Wisconsin or Illinois? They gave me a great deal - but it was all over the phone, I haven't been to the storefront. Did you get your Alembic there? Depending on where you are at, the Bag End factory may not be too far from you - I wished I had taken the time to make it out there before I moved from Illinois to California. | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 510 Registered: 7-2003 |
Kayo - No, I got my bass through BassCentral. Not because Uncle Bob's didn't offer a good deal (I know they do), but because Beaver (the only dealer I spoke to) offered me a deal and terms I knew I would not find again. Nothing mysterious about the deal Beaver made me - just superior price on almost the last day the special of the month would be in effect. I never looked back and have never been sorry. The Uncle Bob's guys are great. Did you deal with Tyler? I stop in on my way home from work frequently (I live in Milwaukee) and have bought lots of stuff from them. I've promised them I'll talk to them first about the next Alembic I order. BTW, Uncle Bob's is a guitar, bass, drums and PA equipment-focused music store with a great range of instruments and electronics. It's a long time family business. They are very traditional (think "pipe rack") about their merchandising - not a showroom (sort of an anti-Guitar Center). They stock lots of interesting stuff - definitely the best music outlet in Milwaukee. The Bag End factory is about 40 min down the road from me in Northern IL. About 6 weeks ago, I heard Brother Mike's Grateful Dead tribute band play in a restaurant right across the street from Bag End. I'm sure I'll get down to say hello to the folks who have been helping me with my ELF. Bill | ||
| kayo
Junior Username: kayo Post Number: 48 Registered: 10-2002 |
Bill oh ok - I got you..... I've heard nothing but good things about Beaver and BassCentral. I do a lot of business with Music Center in Kenosha - have you checked them out? On about 80% of my big ticket gear (digital recording gear, compressors, my Bag End and Eden WT800 and the like)they have been able to beat everyone else's price - and it doesn't hurt that I don't have to pay tax since I'm out of state. Thanks for all the feedback - take care |
