| Author | Message | ||
| jigme
New Username: jigme Post Number: 5 Registered: 7-2004 |
I have a Pbass with 70's era Series I innards. I have two issues with this bass: the tone can be very "nasal" and kind of thin; and it seems to get lost in the mix sometimes. I can get plenty of growl, volume, highs and lows, but I'd guess I'd call it "warm mids" are missing. There's no punch. I play through a WWoods into a 15" BagEnd. I've tried TI flats but I sacrifice other tones with flats. Now I have very old Dean Markley Blue Steels on it, which I know are twangy but these are probably 4 years old. WWYD? Different strings, tube preamp...? I would be greatly indebted! This has been a source of frustration for 20 years! I'm a patient man ;0) Cheers, Jeffrey | ||
| kayo
Junior Username: kayo Post Number: 49 Registered: 10-2002 |
Jeffrey Start with string replacement - with roundwounds the loosening of the windings and the grit and soil that gets into the windings affect tone immensely - 4 years is far too long - others may disagree but - I use exclusively roundwounds and I have a very aggressive funky slap style. My strings go dead and develop tone anomalies after about 18 hours of playing..... at that point not only do they feel terrible and no longer respond with the same resiliency, they also start to break starting with the G, then the D, and on occasion the A. Changing strings alone can make a significant difference in your tone. I'm sure others will chime in with their expert opinions on additional and/or differing ideas. Good Luck! | ||
| jagerphan84
Member Username: jagerphan84 Post Number: 73 Registered: 10-2003 |
My two cents: With Series I guts, I would highly doubt that the bass itself is the problem. I would think that your amplification system is likely the biggest factor here. The BagEnd 15" is surely a great cab, but that big speaker is best suited for your lower frequencies. A second cabinet, probably a 210 or something similar, would help to bring out the mids and highs. An Eden, Bag End, Epifani, or other 210 could really boost the midrange 'punch.' If you are in the mood to totally revamp your system, I think it would be beneficial for your sound if you were to put together a rig with an Alembic preamp and a good power amp (QSC, Crown, etc). If you like the WWoods and want to stick to a single cab setup, take a look at the 212 cabinets out there. They don't lose much on the bass end, but they can handle mids and highs better than most 15s, especially if the unit has a horn. I have an Ampeg SVR 212 which can bump some bass when I need it to, but the mids have all the punch I could ask for. As Kayo said above, the strings have a huge impact on your sound, so that would be a good place to start, but I would expect that the problem won't be completely resolved by new strings alone. Hope this helps! Adam | ||
| gregslegs
New Username: gregslegs Post Number: 5 Registered: 7-2004 |
I seem to remember reading/hearing that James Jamerson never changed his strings. It gave him what he called 'the funk'. I would call it 'funk' too, but with a differenct connotation. Jamerson definitely had punch to his sound, but it was a flat punch. I would go with the smaller cabinet. I gigged for years with a MusicMan playing through an SWR 15" and I had the same complaint with that setup. Great lows, good presence through the horn, but no punch. Going with a 210 or a 212 would make a HUGE difference. I picked up an Aguilar 410 cabinet the other day (I didn't know that they even made speaker cabinets), and I was extremely impressed. Give them a listen if you can. But for God's sake, keep the Walter Woods! It is to amplifiers, what Alembics are to the bass. Greg | ||
| jigme
New Username: jigme Post Number: 8 Registered: 7-2004 |
Guys, Strings~ Altho' new strings will help I don't think this will take me 'round the bend. But I surely need a new set! Cabs~ Hadn't really considered this and what you say makes good sense. I like the BagEnds so I'll try a 2x10 cab. Amp~ Ahhh, the Walter Woods, I ain't ever gonna let it go!!! "The Alembic sound"~ See, I've been wondering if the "nasality" of my tone (hey now, there's a new use of the word nasal!), is simply part of the Alembic sound.(The early Stanley Clarke stuff has a bit if this in it.) So I wonder if this is part of the Series I sound or if there is something off with my electronics or something I need to do differently with the tone controls and Q switches? ~ Jeffrey | ||
| jagerphan84
Member Username: jagerphan84 Post Number: 74 Registered: 10-2003 |
Just letting my lack of experience with the world show - I had heard the name 'Walter Woods,' but I had never seen any review or heard any comments about the amps. After doing a brief bit of reading, I retract my above statement about switching to the preamp & power amp, obviously the Walter Woods is not the weak link in this chain. In fact, I'm gonna be looking for one myself; my 6-space rack weighs in at about 85 pounds, and more than 30 of that is the power amp. Any way to reduce the weight without compromising tone sounds good to me! | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 1448 Registered: 9-2002 |
Well ...for what I can put into this. I used the word "nosy" a thousand or what posts ago. Well ...it is NOT the appropriate english word and "nasal" is a lot better but I called it "nosy". How did I come to that. When assembling Tweak Peaks I did some A/B-ing at EVH place in Hilversum. SWR, Eden and Glockenklang. Beware ...I am NOT trying to convince anyone to buy something, I am just trying to report. Anyway. When A/B-ing I experienced a very "nosy" (well ...you know ...let's calll it "nasal") tone with my -on that moment SWR SM-400 amp- as a reference for all cabs produced by SWR and Eden. Stronger with Eden than with SWR. I discussed this with EVH and he said that those (and most) cabs are "biased" to that nasal (mid) tone. The reason is sound-economical: a nasal sound cuts through any mix and is very LOUD. Well ...we experience it as a very loud (bass)sound. Other cabs -like the Glocks- are not so ecnomical and are more ...well ...eu ..."neutral" and "clean" and that is something you have to like. To be "loud" with the Glocks ...well ...you need more power. The cabs don't bias to the mid. My friend and brother Spider Ollie did the same A/B-ing on the same place (EVH in Hilversum) and didn't like Glockenklang AT ALL. If I am well informed he plays Eden now and so the most "nasal" of all. Listen ...I KNOW this is highly subjective and personal but I can say that it is the first time I did some serious A/B-ing on cabs with an amp on "locked" setting and the results were in my ears quite amazing. It is to everybody's personal ears to conclude what HE likes. Lile Spider Ollie and me highly differ in taste of bass sound. Paul the bad one | ||
| son_of_magni
Member Username: son_of_magni Post Number: 82 Registered: 1-2004 |
I have to agree with all the comments about 10's. A 15 with a horn, for instance, is a cheap way to make a wide range speaker. But nothing beats a 4x10 for punch. I'm currently using 4 10's, a horn, and an 18. This might be the perfect setup, but it's the 10's that make it work. SoM PS, If I had a nosy speaker, I'd tell it to mind it's own business! | ||
| dela217
Senior Member Username: dela217 Post Number: 425 Registered: 6-2002 |
Jigme - It may not be the case, but it might be worth mentioning. Do you notice the "nasal" tone whith both pickups selected? Does it go away when only one pickup is used? If that is the case, the source of your "nasalness" could be that you pickups are wired out of series. I had an Alembic with the same sort of problem. If the nasal sound goes away when you are using one pickup, that could be the case. With the 70's style electronics, it is not a real easy fix. You would have to reverse the polarity of one of the pickups on the PF6 card. That would require some soldering. It could be possible, I have seen it before. Michael | ||
| pace
Junior Username: pace Post Number: 28 Registered: 4-2004 |
The Walter Woods is the weakest link!!!! SELL IT TO ME!!!  | ||
| mdrdvp
Intermediate Member Username: mdrdvp Post Number: 127 Registered: 7-2002 |
Mike, there's a Walter Woods amp on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10171&item=3739996065&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW Manfred | ||
| jigme
New Username: jigme Post Number: 9 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hi, Palembic-- you said "The reason is sound-economical: a nasal sound cuts through any mix and is very LOUD." This nasal tone may be a good thing for cutting thru, but does it sound good to my ears? Not really. But this is something I didn't know about. thanks. dela-- a ha! I hadn't thot of this at all! These electronics are pretty old now (25+) and they could use an overhaul by Alembic. It may cost a pretty penny. I'll contact Mica about it. I usually use only one pup. I just found last night that my bridge pup isn't working at all so it may be time. pace-- I know...this amp SUCKS!! I can't figure why I've kept it for 11years. ;0) The one on eBay is virtually the same model I have. Nobody has suggested a Sansamp or other such device. Anyone use a box to warm up the sound? --Jeffrey | ||
| kayo
Member Username: kayo Post Number: 51 Registered: 10-2002 |
Jigme I have used various outboard gear to see what kind of impact they would have on my sound (to "warm" it up). Sansamp for Bass, Aphex aural exciter, BBE Sonic Maximizer, Sadowsky preamp/DI, Alembic F-1X. Truth is, (and I can only speak for me) that with my rig (Rogue with 2 sets of Q's and 2 sets of quick tone switches - one for each pickup, Eden WT-800, Bag End Q10BX-D, EA 1x10 3 way - soon to add the Bag End Infra M and Bag End 1x18) I found that these products did not greatly add much that I could not already get from my existing set-up. There were some unique sounds to be gained, but I was not looking for and effect so much as I was looking for a permanent addition to my signal path that enhanced my sound significantly. I did end up buying the Sansamp (foot pedal vs rackmount) but not as a a permanent addition to my set up, more as either an effect, or an addition to my toolkit for scenarios where I may not be able to bring my rig, or if I'm in a recording situation where they want me to go direct. I suppose much of what this consideration would be based on is what your existing rig is and what it is that you think it may be lacking? One thing I know for sure - I do all my tracking digitally, and to avoid sounding too clean or sterile, I make sure that I run (just about) everything through either a tube compressor or a tube preamp. This bring back some of the warmth of the musical harmonic distortion that would otherwise be left out with a purely digital sound source. Mic placement for speakers can also add some warmth - and in some cases I even mic my strings - just so I can hear the "grit" with slides and slaps independantly from the rest of the mix. Amp & Speaker configuration would be a big factor for me in deciding if/when to use one of the aforementioned processors. Hope that helps | ||
| jigme
New Username: jigme Post Number: 10 Registered: 7-2004 |
Kayo ~ This is very helpful. I was hoping somebody had tried several different processors/preamps/stomp boxes and could help me out. You have and besides the SansAmp they haven't given you the warmth (except for recording). I like my WWoods and BagEnd (awesome cabs, right kayo?) and I don't want to revamp my setup. What I distill from all this good advice is: 1)try some 2x10 cabs, 2)new nickel strings, and 3)get my electronics overhauled. The maple neck and ash body probably contribute to the brittleness of the sound, but unless I put the electronics in another bass this won't change. Thanks for all the good input! Cheers ~ Jeffrey | ||
| kayo
Member Username: kayo Post Number: 52 Registered: 10-2002 |
Jeffrey Yeah - I love my Bag End. In a perfect world money would be no object and I would have mutiple amp/pre-amp/cabinet/bass configurations..... but being the working stiff that I am and I can only afford one Rig and currently 2 basses - I am more than happy with the choices I have made given my style and preference for playing a musical genre (R&B, Funk, Soul). 20 years back just about everyone had 15" cabs.... I had even jumped on that bandwagon. Once I had the cashflow for higher end gear I had even purchased the very first bass rig assembled by Mesa Boogie... the D-180 (which I came to hate) I think it was called with a road ready 1x15 cab. I had it loaded with an extended range EV... it was ok. I have come to find that I would "not by choice" choose a one speaker rig ever again. The advent of the 4x10 configuration made me realize that there is something to be said about a multiple speaker cabinet (with the exception of a 2x15 which I am not particularly fond of either). The only "one speaker cab" I would use - and only in conjunction with a 2x12 or a 4x10 - would be a 1x18. For practicing at home I love my EA 1x10 (it's a 3-way) with incredible punch, clarity, power handling, range and resiliency. You'll be very happy once you implement the 3 items you listed. Good luck! | ||
| gregslegs
New Username: gregslegs Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2004 |
As far as the pedals/boxes are concerned, I second that emotion. My feeling is that if the instrument does not essentially sound good w/o the boxes, you're fighting a losing battle by adding pedals and gadgets. They can however make a good instrument sound "better", or maybe different is a more apt way of putting it. For example, the Sadowsky DI's do a great job with passive Fender's. The aphex box is pretty neat, but it seems to add a lot to my ears, and I usually try to keep it simple. For some reason every SansAmp that I have tried was kind of noisy, so I've not really given them much of a workout. The Zoom boxes are way too noisy. I'm noticing more and more how much the fretboard makes a difference. I prefer the brightness of maple fretboards overall, but I'm really getting into ebony now. It seems to combine the best of rosewood and maple, strangely. I also use a 1x10 for practicing. It's a cheapie SWR, but it's great. It also does a great job for smaller cafe gigs. Sometimes I really have to admonish myself for getting too gear happy. I go back to two big influences on me, Jaco and Jamerson, and look at their basses. On the one hand it's a testament to how good Fender basses are/can be, and on the other hand you can say, "Wow! These guys made beat up pieces of crap sound unbelievable." My feeling is that 85% of the sound is in the hand. The equipment does the rest. By far and away the best pedal out there is the practice pedal. | ||
| kayo
Member Username: kayo Post Number: 53 Registered: 10-2002 |
Gregslegs You are quite right about the difference that the hands make in tone, and how much this makes a differnce on overall sound. When I was younger and not quite as good at playing as I am now I used to go to Music stores a lot to see the shiny new equipment that I could not afford - and often would see someone play a bass and would really like their tone. I would wait until they put the bass back and then pick it up and play the very same bass out of the very same rig and (most) often it would not sound the same..... then I started noticing how Jaco Pastorious could play a piece of crap and make it sing...... and then I started taking stand-up lessons with the bass player for the Chicago Symphony and found that there are literally dozens if not hundreds of different tones that can be derived from the bass (the contrabass has the widest dynamic range of all instruments). Finger position, the envelope (attack, decay, sustain, release), the way one strikes the string, what portion of the finger is used to strike the string, the angle of the finger when stringing the string, whether one plays at the neck or bridge pick-up - and I would go so far as to state that even each individual's unique spirit all contibute to the ultimate tone that is generated. One time I was at Guitar Center and I had picked up a Music Man and was playing out of a Crate combo and a whole crowd gathered and people commented on how great that amp sounded..... but then someone else plugged into it and I realized then that the tone was coming from me, not the amp. |
