| Author | Message | ||
| styd
New Username: styd Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi, I'm new here. I'm doing a paper on the background and history of the extended bass, so would like help with web links or articles related to this topic. Also would like to know some players and luthiers in this field. Also apart from Leo Fender (who is widely considered the father of "extended range basses" with his baritone guitar, from my research it seems Alembic played a major part in this area too. Any help or corrections greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. | ||
| poor_nigel
Advanced Member Username: poor_nigel Post Number: 287 Registered: 7-2003 |
Welcome Dave. I will be no help to you here, except to welcome you and wish lots of satisfaction in your endeavor. You will find the members and staff here friendly and helpful. | ||
| kungfusheriff
Intermediate Member Username: kungfusheriff Post Number: 172 Registered: 8-2003 |
The Cliff's Notes version is, Danelectro and Fender began offering "six-string basses," also known as "baritone guitars," in the early '60s. As their name suggests they were guitars with heavier strings tuned down an octave. In '68 or so, Hagstrom began offering an 8-string bass that mimiced the lowest two-thirds of a 12-string guitar but tuned down two octaves. Somewhere around that time, after their sale to CBS in 1964, Fender began offering a five-string bass with a high-C string. This idea was seized upon by our good friends at Alembic and tweaked by session bassist Jimmy Johnson, who ordered an Alembic five-string with a low B in about 1974...Mica or Susan would know more exactly than I. Independently, at the same time, bassists Anthony Jackson and Stanley Clarke began working with New York luthier Carl Thompson to develop, respectively, the modern six-string bass (tuned B-E-A-D-G-C) and the piccolo bass (tuned E-A-D-G one octave above a standard bass). That's it in a nutshell--this history can be found in "The Bass Book," a coffee table book of history and bass porn that may still be available for you to buy and cite for your paper. If you can't find a copy and happen to live in the US, e-mail me and I'll let you borrow mine if you promise to return it. | ||
| reinier
Junior Username: reinier Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2003 |
Dave, A perhaps useful article to read / quote for your paper is the May '89 interview in Guitar Player with Jimmy "Flim" Johnson. As indicated in the previous message, Flim Johnson was probably very early in the door, if not the first to come up with the idea of adding a low B. Inspired by his father, a classical upright player that had a double bass with a fingerboard extension for the lowest string, he turned to Alembic for at the time Alembic were building 5-str bass guitars with a high C on top. The low B-string he found at GHS although back then it was being sold as "basically a huge E" (.120), as Flim put it. For pictures of Flim's original five string pls take a look here http://alembic.com/club/messages/411/13127.jpg or here http://www3.alembic.com/img/623.jpg As per the interview, he got it in 1976. Should you have trouble getting a copy from GP I'll be glad to see if I can get a copy to you (hope I do not violate any laws after all these years). I also still keep a copy of the GP interview with 6-string pioneer Anthony Jackson, who later was honoured in GP's spin off Bass Player with a two-issue interview. The first of these two was entirely devoted to his equipment and contains quite some info the conception of his 6-string. BP used to have a link where you could find some old articles, but it now looks like you have to call or e-mail to order back issues. I'd (or should I say "we'd"?) be really interested in learning more on your findings as soon as you'll have finished your research, not in the least while Alembic no doubt is one of the first to have contributed to the multistring bass guitar (and did the best job of all i.m.h.o.). Good luck with your paper. Take care, RR | ||
| keavin
Senior Member Username: keavin Post Number: 487 Registered: 12-2002 |
Hey was that bass ever recovered? | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 920 Registered: 5-2002 |
Here is the Anthony Jackson interview: http://archive.bassplayer.com/artists/jackson1.shtml | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 1996 Registered: 6-2000 |
Jimmy's original 5-string bass has not been recovered, it's still listed on the stolen instruments page (#AC418). I thought I found it on ebay once, but it was a flase alarm  | ||
| bsee
Advanced Member Username: bsee Post Number: 346 Registered: 3-2004 |
And Guitar Center still has an old five with a fan headstock listed on their site, but I sent you that link a while ago and it wasn't the bass. They list the serial number as 76-421, if anyone is interested, so it must have come right after Jimmy's. (Message edited by bsee on October 14, 2004) | ||
| kayo
Member Username: kayo Post Number: 70 Registered: 10-2002 |
davehouck I am very thankful for your providing a link to this article. I have had very limited exposure to Anthony, having only the Al Di Meola works to deftly identify his unique voice for me - up until now. I struggle with my feelings about basses with more than 4 strings - I definitely appreciate the tonal flexibility that the added 5th and 6th strings offer - however, being so unilaterally funk oriented for the past 2 decades does not easily dovetail into a practical application (for me) of the added strings. I have been a great fan of Jonas Helborg as well -and I have been more inclined to identify with the practical applications of an extended bass range from the added scale length approach. Needless to say, there is no right or wrong - only what is most conducive for each respective individual. Truth is, I feel like I'm not even playing the bass when I pick up a 6 string.... and the spacing makes it difficult to slap with the fluency that I am used to. As I build up my repertoire of basses - with the understanding that I will not have the luxury to be one of those indviduals that amass many an instrument - I envision myself adding (to my 1 Rogue - 4 string fretted - collection as of now) another 4 string fretted (for when I break a string - which is all too often), a fretless 4 string, a 5 string fretted (so I can capture that perfect note on the low B that always eludes me on the 4 string), a 4 string fretted with a tremolo, and a series II. For now - I just immerse myself in the rudiments of 4 string heaven.... | ||
| bigredbass
Advanced Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 314 Registered: 9-2002 |
For me it just doesn't get any better than Anthony and Jimmy: Both have technique to medal in the 'Bass Player Olympics', yet both totally play inside pockets that they define in terms that I dimly begin to understand after the 30th or 40th listening . . . I applaud their ability to dominate their space yet be totally in the tune. No idiot 'superchops' crap. Anthony even plays with a pick for some things, a lost art. Of course Anthony is on one of my favorite albums, Fagen's "Nightfly" (along with the formidable Abe Laboriel and Will Lee). And Jimmy with JT is just sublime, I'd love to hear just him and James 'unplugged'. J o e y | ||
| gare
Member Username: gare Post Number: 63 Registered: 11-2003 |
Styd Any updates on this..kinda curious as to what all you dug up | ||
| styd
New Username: styd Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi all, well gare so far here's what I have... I appreciated the help so far, still needing more material. But I wanted to post a basic summary of what i've got which I'd appreciate if those here could let me know if it's correct or better still add further information to it. Anyway here goes... "The existance of extended range basses begins when Danelectro's Baritone guitar leads the way for the first 5 and 6 string basses in the mid-1960s. Though the Long Horn and Short Horn Danos were the forerunners, the Dano Baritone was it's actual prototype. The first true extended range basses were made by Carl Thompson, a six-string for Anthony Jackson, a professional studio bassist, in 1975. Anthony Jackson is acknowledged as the first bassist to play Extended Range basses ie: six-string. One year earlier in 1974, Alembic developed the first 5-string bass for Jimmy Johnson. Later luthier Bill Conklin further developed extended range basses. Today Warwick basses are the most well-known of these type of basses." "Also, eight string basses (the kind that have four paired strings, called cords) are not considered to be extended range basses. However, there are eight string basses that have individually pitched strings with rage spanning six to seven octaves." Am I on the right track here? | ||
| bsee
Advanced Member Username: bsee Post Number: 390 Registered: 3-2004 |
Well, there are also 12 string basses that aren't, by your definition, extended range. By the way, one would think that you would define the term as part of your essay. Additionally, I can't say that I think Warwick when I think five/six string. Fives have almost become the industry standard such that they are ubiquitous. The six is more unusual, but I couldn't point to a current manufacturuer as the volume/visibility leader in the field. If anything, I think of companies like Ibanez that brought these things to mass market by creating a decent 5-6 string bass for only a few hundred dollars. Other than that, you had to go to someone like Alembic or Ken Smith for your extra strings and pay a real premium for the quality you get. In today's world, you do have basses that go beyond six strings, and instruments like the Stick that are harder to characterize. | ||
| styd
New Username: styd Post Number: 3 Registered: 10-2004 |
Bsee wrote: >By the way, one would think that you would define the term as part of your essay. < Yes I will be defining it, I just wrote this reply as a very brief summary of what i had so far to go on, thats all. It has been a hard struggle for correct info I've found. >I think of companies like Ibanez that brought these things to mass market by creating a decent 5-6 string bass for only a few hundred dollars< Now this is interesting cause I didn't know this piece of info. Anything else you can add to it? Thanks. | ||
| adriaan
Advanced Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 371 Registered: 6-2002 |
You could visit http://www.talkbass.com - there's ERBGs all over that place - and 6 is just a starting point. Since the beginning of the year the record is held by an Adler 11 string bass (AFAIK). The lowest string on that is tuned somewhere around 20 Hz, and the top strings are in guitar territory (C# F# B E A D G C F Bb Eb). You'll also find 4s with all strings tuned below the "normal" bass guitar range - though strictly speaking they have the same range but in a different register. | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 961 Registered: 5-2002 |
Just curious; what is your support for the statement that "today Warwick basses are the most well-known of these type of basses"? Most well known by who; the general public?, professional bass players?, retailers?. | ||
| bigredbass
Advanced Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 335 Registered: 9-2002 |
Styd: In my opinion, the Danelectros/Fender VIs, were more of a nod to the 'tic-tac' style of bass, where an electric guitar doubled upright lines on recordings. I know Jack Bruce famously played a Fender VI with Cream, but the short scale coupled with the amps of those days make it not really a bass to me, in my opinion. While Jimmy Johnson and Anthony Jackson pursued their vision only really known to the rare air of studio recording, the modern turn to extended range basses for the general market was really pushed by Nathan East and the Yamaha BB5000. Nate was in so many 80s videos, and Yamaha advertised and put the piece in general circulation. It was the first dedicated five for the masses in that it was truly long scale and had pickups specifically for a five string layout. The Japanese typically saw an opening and jumped in: Ibanez soon followed with the TUNE-inspired SoundGear series in fives and sixes. These were basses you could buy at any music store in Iowa, not some specialist Fodera or Alembic that was not in broad circulation and were only known or available in LA or NYC. Extended range basses were also highly pushed by recordings with keyboard bass. Bass guitars had to keep up. Remember, a lot of us in the late 70s or early 80s weren't really sure we wouldn't be replaced by sequencers and synths, especially once MIDI came in and simplified all of that. Doug Wimbish has said he developed his technique in direct result of competing with keyboard bass. And amps to match this took a big jump at the same time as Trace-Elliott and SWR began to arrive. Warwick, I would agree, is hardly the center of the universe. Were it not for their annoying copying of Steinberger's NS design theme for Stuart Spector, who would know about them at all? With the Internet, now all sorts of small specialist builders are on a more even footing in competing for customers with the Fenders and Yamahas. I've no doubt you can find a bass with as many strings as you can stand all over the web. J o e y | ||
| kungfusheriff
Intermediate Member Username: kungfusheriff Post Number: 186 Registered: 8-2003 |
styd, Write colder and more scientifically, it will be more palatable for your professors and easier to read; trust me. Do NOT use shorthand or slang common among string people, you'll only lose points. "Also, eight string basses (the kind that have four paired strings, called cords) are not considered to be extended range basses." What do you base this statement upon, and from where do you derive your terminology? Please support. Consider the reader totally uneducated, albeit with a smidge of common sense. Don't be shy, my wife just returned to college and I judge her writing just as harshly. And for the luvva Mike, why give Warwick props? Your paper is not a commercial. The first noticable thing they did was make an electric upright, and they didn't even invent the concept. Information comes at an all-time low price right now; don't assume your prof won't invest in challenging your thesis. And by the way, bsee, did any of us buy GC's fan-head five or has it disappeared into the ether Zebrawood peghead and all? I was born that year, and had just made up my mind to but it, for safe-keeping of course. Fess up, y'all. | ||
| adriaan
Advanced Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 372 Registered: 6-2002 |
About Warwick and the EUB - IIRC they started out in the old Framus factory, and I know Framus built EUBs back in the 60s. I remember seeing a photograph of white one with a Hawaiian style airbrush picture on the back - not sure if that was a standard version. | ||
| gare
Member Username: gare Post Number: 77 Registered: 11-2003 |
Interesting, I've never considered an 8 or 12 string bass as extended range. Always thought of it as a means to thicken up or get a fuller sound. That's compared to a 5 or 6 string. Nor have I ever thought of a 12 string guitar as an extended range 6 string. I'd consider a 7 string guitar as extended range. You learn something everyday now dont you. | ||
| 811952
Advanced Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 308 Registered: 10-2003 |
For 8- and 12-string basses, I believe the proper term is "course," as in my 12-string bass having 3 courses for each EADG. As for electric uprights, Ampeg derives it's name from amplifying conventional uprights, and I'm pretty certain their solid electric upright bass was the first... And as for extended range, I played a 5-string upright bass in 1975, but when I ordered my Alembic in early '81 an L.A. studio guy named Roger Spencer tried talking me into a 5-er with a low B and I thought he was crazy. I didn't get a 5 until 1986, and it was built by Wayne Kamp in Indianapolis and was based upon a Fender Jazz Bass. So, I'm on board with what Joey has to say about it and you can pretend I didn't make you read this largely redundant post.. John | ||
| 811952
Advanced Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 309 Registered: 10-2003 |
For 8- and 12-string basses, I believe the proper term is "course," as in my 12-string bass having 3 courses for each EADG. As for electric uprights, Ampeg derives it's name from amplifying conventional uprights, and I'm pretty certain their solid electric upright bass was the first... And as for extended range, I played a 5-string upright bass in 1975, but when I ordered my Alembic in early '81 an L.A. studio guy named Roger Spencer tried talking me into a 5-er with a low B and I thought he was crazy. I didn't get a 5 until 1986, and it was built by Wayne Kamp in Indianapolis and was based upon a Fender Jazz Bass. So, I'm on board with what Joey has to say about it and you can pretend I didn't make you read this largely redundant post.. John | ||
| adriaan
Advanced Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 373 Registered: 6-2002 |
John, I think there were several "pogo stick" makers, not sure who was the first - just that Framus in Germany was making them in the 50s or 60s. | ||
| 811952
Advanced Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 310 Registered: 10-2003 |
The brutal irony of making a redundant post twice is not lost on me... John | ||
| adriaan
Advanced Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 374 Registered: 6-2002 |
If you realize that something has not escaped you, then surely an expression of that realization is again redundant. There's just no way out! | ||
| 811952
Advanced Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 311 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yeah, I found that the Ampeg Baby Bass was licensed from Zorko, who apparently was advertising their basses in 1961, but can't find any info on them.. John | ||
| 811952
Advanced Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 312 Registered: 10-2003 |
Amen. Amen... | ||
| bigredbass
Advanced Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 337 Registered: 9-2002 |
of course after the Yamahas and Ibanez fives and sixes, it later occurred to me that 'where were the American manufacturers?' MusicMan's StingRay Five really finished breaking the glass that basses for the everyday bar-band guy need not be four strings only. Fender finally followed with the various five string Jazzes and finally, a five string Precision. Sadowsky's five strings helped push Fender into it. And it's hard not to underestimate Carvin's impact on the average player with the five and six string LBs. The specialists rose behind this large market movement. Alembic and Fodera and Pedulla and Ken Smith easily expanded their offerings. Spector enlarged the NS range. And the Internet offered more traction for lesser known builders like Conklin, Curbow, and FBass with their mindbending Alain Caron models. The Internet offered them a hand into the game that was not possible in the old days of the mom and pop music stores and distributors. J o e y | ||
| wally_malone
Junior Username: wally_malone Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2002 |
styd, you should check out www.extendedrangebassist.com Wally | ||
| adriaan
Advanced Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 387 Registered: 6-2002 |
Briefly about the Warwick EUB, they are in fact the very same Triumph model that Framus marketed decades ago. They probably have different electronics now - although you can buy Azolas with the strange p/u that Ampeg put into the 'scroll' basses. | ||
| xavier
New Username: xavier Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2004 |
For those interested, I believe there's an Ampeg Electric upright on Ebay right now. It came up while I was browsing for Alembics. Called the Devil Bass or some such. | ||
| beelee
New Username: beelee Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2004 |
I started playing extended range bass back in 1987 ( a Yamaha RBX 5 string w/ a low B) so I didn't have to tune down for some of the material I was playing at the time, then moved up to 6 (Peavey TL-6 ) , 8 ( Ibanez Studio 8) , 12 ( Hamer B12A ) and now Conklin 7 string. A few years ago I purchased a Alembic Series I 5 string ( AWESOME !!) so the Peavey 6's and Yamaha 5's were sold, so now I have a pre- Gibson Tobias 6, Pedulla Hexabuzz, Fodera Monarch Elite fretless 6, and now I'm having a new Alembic 6 string triple omega built (before January 5th !!) as for playing slap,tap and funk on a extended range bass check out the Bill Dickens video, he is amazing !! I'm a big John Paul Jones fan as well ( another reason I started playing extended range bass AND got an Alembic) here are 2 sites that might be of interest for your paper: http://12stringbass.com/MainFrames.html http://www.8stringbass.com/ good luck with your paper !! | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 1000 Registered: 5-2002 |
Welcome to the group Bruce. Which Bill Dickens video are you are talking about? | ||
| beelee
New Username: beelee Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2004 |
Hey Dave, thanks........I have 2 Bill Dickens videos : MVP Contemporary Jazz Collection for bass " Untold Secrets" Soloing, Chording, Thumb/Finger Techniques for Electric bass and Untold Secrets 2 ( which I haven't watched yet) He's playing a Ken Smith 6 in the first one, I was blown away at how fast he can slap/pop !! and he plays a 7 str now. correction to my previous post.... Pentabuzz not Hexabuzz......ever since I spoke to Val and ordered my Series II Triple O 6 I've had six on my brain......LOL........I can't wait !!! ;o) | ||
| bassfan
New Username: bassfan Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2004 |
hey all i am new here. I was looking through the topics and Extended range bass caught my eye. I was reading down about the 11-string. Then i read this: " Later luthier Bill Conklin further developed extended range basses. Today Warwick basses are the most well-known of these type of basses." From my research ,the first commercial luthier to build a bass with more than six consecutive strings tuned in fourths was Michael Tobias in 1987. It was a custom ordered 7 string, the only one Tobias ever made (see http://www.weedhopper.org/Bass_Guitar_History.asp ) The bass player Tobias made the bass for had been a Chapman Stick player since 1975 and wanted to had the low B string like the one on the Stick to his Fender Bass VI. Apparently he modified a beat up Fender Bass VI into a 7 string around 1978 and was playing it at the Troubadour in L.A. . He approached several luthiers about making a custom 7 string (see Talk Bass ) from 1979-87 and the only one who was willing to build it was Tobias. He was performing with the 7 string years before any other builders made another one. Turns out he is the guy who owns the 11-string. It would make sense,this guy is really the "father" of the extended range bass. He plays them like a piano. | ||
| mint_bass
Advanced Member Username: mint_bass Post Number: 209 Registered: 1-2004 |
Welcome to the club Clem That is some vevy intereting information you have hopefully Dave will come ack on the site and use that information. Do you know what type of Alembic you have if not you should post pictures and we can tell you. Also if you post the Serial number someone from Alembic should give you the history and build details of your bass when they have a minute. The serial number is usually on the back of the headstock. talk to you soon Andrew | ||
| 811952
Advanced Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 318 Registered: 10-2003 |
I just heard "You're Leaving Now" by Asia, and recall seeing John Wetton playing a 6-string Ibanez Roadstar bass in the video. It had four tuning keys in the conventional "Fender" position and two additional keys on the bottom. They looked like they were definitely an afterthought. I don't have any clue how it was tuned because I don't think they showed his hands for more than a second or two in the video. I'm guessing the year was '81 or '82 maybe? John |
