| Author | Message | ||
| kayo
Member Username: kayo Post Number: 71 Registered: 10-2002 |
I am hoping that those of you with more expertise than I can help me decipher what my problem is.... I have been having an increasing fret buzz problem.... My question is, how do I know when what I need to do is adjust a truss rod vs raise the saddle on the bridge or a nut adjustment? I have a Rogue 4 string fretted, and have been using the same brand of strings for at least a year now (DR High Beams) and about 4 months ago this buzz started on the G string first, then the D string. It begins around the 4/5th fret and runs pretty much down the length of the neck. Any / all help would be greatly appreciated. | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 946 Registered: 5-2002 |
Since you haven't changed the brand of strings, and since all was fine until a few months ago, my guess is that a change in humidity has moved the neck some and you need to adjust the truss rods. Generally, you adjust the nut for first fret buzzing, not for buzzing further down the neck. If the buzzing was only on the frets nearest the pickups, then adjusting the bridge would be appropriate. But for buzzing that starts at the fifth fret and runs the length of the neck, it sounds to me like a truss rod adjustment. | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 1720 Registered: 9-2002 |
Brother Joey is the expert in this. I think that if the buzz is on the first 3 frets work on the nut, is the buzz on the upper half of the neck, work on the truss rods, if the buzz is on the lower half of the neck, work on the bridge. Now that is FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR too simple but basically it IS true. Of what I can mek up from your text it is a truss rod adjustment, that you'll have to "fine-tune" with the bridge. Do a search for the Joey Routine. He wrote a step-by-step (must copy) threat somewhere. IMPORTANT: do it in eeny-teeny bits of turns and WAIT ..wait ...be patient ...after every step you make. Let the bass TIME to respond to your changes. Some ideas Paul the bad one | ||
| lbpesq
Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 86 Registered: 7-2004 |
Just curious. Other than a buzz on an open string, why would a nut adjustment have any effect at all on a string that is being fretted? (unless you're Eddie Van Halen) Bill, the guitar one (Message edited by lbpesq on October 21, 2004) | ||
| 811952
Advanced Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 300 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sounds to me like you've got 2 problems. If it's not buzzing on the first 4 frets, you may be able to actually lower the nut a smidge in addition to adjusting the bridge and/or truss rods. Hold the string down on the first and last frets and see if you've got any bow in the neck or not. You want to have just a little (16th of an inch or so at the middle if holding down the first and last frets). Som people like more and some like less depending upon how they play. When you've got the neck where you want it, you can lower the nut to where the clearance over the first fret is the same as the clearance over the second fret when fretting the first fret and you should be good to go. It's something to play with, since we have the unique ability to, ahem, adjust our nuts non-destructively. And look for Joey's treatise on adjusting your neck, because if I recall it covers all of this in great detail and better accuracy... John | ||
| kayo
Member Username: kayo Post Number: 72 Registered: 10-2002 |
Dave, Paul (TBO) & John This is great - just the feedback I was looking for. I'll start the adjustments over the weekend and hopfully have a results oriented post next week to say that the problem is solved! Cheers | ||
| bigredbass
Advanced Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 325 Registered: 9-2002 |
Kayo The greatest thing about ALEMBICs is the adjustability built into them vis-a-vis playing action. The double truss rods (uncommon) and the adjustable nut (VERY uncommon) and the bridge (already cast in the curve to match your fingerboard radius) form the PERFECT platform to experiment and learn to adjust your action yourself. There's no neck to unbolt, no plastic nut to file or fill in, etc. Do two things FIRST: -If the budget permits, put on new strings, the kind you always use -After they are through stretching, BE SURE you are tuned up Old strings can cause their own problems: New string will eliminate these right off the bat. Tuning equals tension: If you're sharp, the neck will be under more tension; flat, there's not the correct tension, so get your tuning straight FIRST. The short setup recipe is this, and do ALL of the following with the bass in playing position in your lap, NOT LAYING ON ITS BACK ON A TABLE!! F I R S T The nut height needs to be at a point where it's high enough so when you fret a note at the third fret (G on the big E, for example), reach around with your other hand and press the string against the first fret while still holding the note at the third fret. It should have just a tiny bit of room to move down and you should hear a little 'clink' as it hits the fret. If it's already touching, raise it SLIGHTLY and try again. A LOT of clearance? Lower is slightly. With the ALEMBIC nut you'll need to detune to loosen the lock screw, then tune up and work through this. All the strings' clearance should end up about the same clearance. Then lock your nut and you're through at this end. Re-tune. SECOND Are you in tune? Now the truss rods. Find a medium pick. Hold the E down at the first fret. Capo (or get a third hand/wife/brother/kid ...) the same string down where it meets the body. The pick should just slip beneath the string at the fret halfway between the two hold-down points. Won't fit? Loosen the truss rod on that side SLIGHTLY (a half-turn on a truss rod is a BUNCH, so just go in tiny fractions of a turn!) till it will. Fits between the string and fret with room to spare? Tighten it just a bit. The ideal fit is it laying on the fret and displacing the string upward ever so slightly. Done? Re-tune, and repeat the process on the G side using that truss rod. Finished? Re-tune. THIRD Are you in tune? We'll set the string heights over the end of the fingerboard AFTER the nut and truss rods are done. You'll adjust the E side by using the allen wrench to raise or lower the bridge on that side. Adjust to where the bottom of the string is about 3/16" over the 24th fret, with the string not fretted or pressed down. Re-tune. Do the same thing on the G side, but adjust it to about 1/8" clearance between the bottom of the open G string and the top of the 24th fret. Re-tune. This is a 'general' setup to get you to a repeatable set of dimensions. Your hands will tell you if it's too high or low, and the neck will tell you if it's too straight or if you need to let a little more bow back in. No two basses will adjust identically, because wood is never identical. Over time, you will learn to get YOUR bass just like YOU want it completely on your own. This is the genius of these instruments. Remember: Neck adjustments are in TINY movements. Think watchmaking, not bridge-building. ALL of us have turned our basses into boat oars the first time or two till we 'got it'. Don't be surprised if you have to 'touch up' this adjustment the next day, it sometimes takes a day or two for everything to settle in. Best of Luck, J o e y | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 1722 Registered: 9-2002 |
Rrrrrrrrrrufl ...et voilá ...the master himself. Bro's and sis's ...start your printers!!! PTBO | ||
| bob
Advanced Member Username: bob Post Number: 344 Registered: 11-2002 |
Joey, you're still getting better at explaining this - a few more times, maybe we can get it printed on a wallet sized reference card. | ||
| 811952
Advanced Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 303 Registered: 10-2003 |
Joey, I'm gonna send you a list of things I need to have explained to me... John | ||
| kayo
Member Username: kayo Post Number: 73 Registered: 10-2002 |
Joey - What a great post!!! Many many thanks. I was a bit embarrassed to ask this question - everyone here is so knowledgeable..... I do know a few things, but Alembic is such a fine instrument I am intimidated to do these things - but at the same time can't afford a pro to do it for me, and am not sure I would want anyone else messing around with my baby either. I did want to ask one thing..... which way do I turn the truss rod to loosen? Am I correct that tightening would be clockwise? Again, I thank you. Cheers! | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 952 Registered: 5-2002 |
From the owner's manual: "If you want to increase forward bow, turn the nut counterclockwise". So, you are correct, tightening would be clockwise. | ||
| bigredbass
Advanced Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 330 Registered: 9-2002 |
Kayo You're welcome! Remember the old shade tree mechanic's mantra: "Righty-tighty, lefty-loosey" (think 'waxon, waxoff. . .'). I'll recommend Dan Erlwine's fabulous book, "The Guitar Player Repair Guide" (isbn 0-87930-291-7) available at most bookstores. This is where I learned EVERYTHING I told you. I can't help but to repeat what a fabulous 'laboratory' ALEMBICs are to teach yourself adjustments. On a Fender, you'd have a nut that could only be filed deeper, or would have to be built up with glue and HotShot to raise the nut heights. You'd have to unbolt the neck to get at the single truss rod, and getting it back in EXACTLY the same position would be impossible with wood screws. The bridge would have two legs per saddle per string to arch your strings to match the curve of the fingerboard. As you can see, ALEMBIC's feature set reduces all of these parameters to easily adjustable mechanisms. You have the luxury of trying the nut at different heights. The bridge already matches the fingerboard radius. TWO truss rods allow essentially separate adjustment for both sides of the neck: Maybe not a big deal on a four, but a BIG help on my five string in fighting that big B separately from the little G. And above all else, laminated neck thrus pit the string pull against the length of the instrument instead of mostly the neck: They are always more stable than a bolt or set neck instrument. But PLEASE remember to do these adjustments in TINY increments until you see the light. Big adjustments are hard for your brain to assimilate at first, and can possibly damage your instrument if you're hopelessly ham-fisted. And once you arrive at 'your setup, tiny instruments are all you'll occasionally need. I did not want to take my bass to a tech, because there are lots of great guitar guys that give bass the bum's rush. I knew no more than you know now, probably less. But after lots of reading, experimenting, and wondering if I'd ever get my ALEMBIC to play right again, I 'got it' and am very satisfied that I can maintain the feel I want regardless of climate, style, or different strings. And so will you. But it is really only a testament to the Wickershams' genius in the genesis of these instruments. And their big enough hearts to think we could participate in our own maintenance. What a concept!! Best Wishes, J o e y PS: Bob, aren't fretless fingerboards set dead-straight? | ||
| bob
Advanced Member Username: bob Post Number: 347 Registered: 11-2002 |
"aren't fretless fingerboards set dead-straight?" Well, "that's what they say...". If you're asking about mine personally, I tried it and it didn't suit me. I've settled in around .009 on the B, .006 on the G (in inches, measured at the 7th 'fret' while holding down the string at the 1st and 24th). In tune, and in playing position, of course :-) | ||
| bigredbass
Advanced Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 331 Registered: 9-2002 |
Never having played fretless, I had heard that several places. But the string is still vibrating in its arc. I felt like eliminating the frets would give some elbow room, but that a 'dead straight' fingerboard would have had to have been between a really high nut and bridge. Thanks for confirming my suspicion. J o e y | ||
| 811952
Advanced Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 305 Registered: 10-2003 |
If you leave a fretless neck "dead Straight" you will get more buzz, which is part of the joy. I have always put a little bit of bow in mine, but not much. john | ||
| rogertvr
Advanced Member Username: rogertvr Post Number: 268 Registered: 1-2003 |
I agree with what Joey is saying above about setting these instruments up. I set-up The Dragon's Wing this afternoon, I spent about two hours on it, doing the intonation, action, pick-ups heights blah blah blah... I've owned it since the end of March, I am now down to small, sensitive adjustments and I think today, with the electronics modification installed (see other thread) - it is 100%, possibly more! The beast has been unleashed! I can't imagine there are too many other manufacturers that give this sort of range of adjustments. I'll let you know when my Status Graphite basses arrive how they compare! Cheers, Rog | ||
| gare
Member Username: gare Post Number: 89 Registered: 11-2003 |
Joey Thanks for these excellent instructions. I did a setup this morning before leaving for work, got all but the intonation done. Zipped right thru it. Will get the intonation when I get home tdy. Havent done a setup in a long time, was kind if leary of doin it. And hey..I'm in tune ! Thx Gary | ||
| bigredbass
Advanced Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 338 Registered: 9-2002 |
Gare So glad this worked for you, easier than you thought, eh? J o e y | ||
| bigredbass
Advanced Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 339 Registered: 9-2002 |
Gare Over time, as you get used to this 'feel' of your instrument, your hands will tell you when it's time to do it again. Don't underestimate that your hands won't tell you right off the bat next time you pick up a different bass that this bass is NOT set up properly: The string heights won't be even, the neck relief is off, etc. The great gift of this is that now you never have to explain or let a stranger try and get it right for you. It's the most amazing example of the capacity of the mind/body interface that you will feel and sense these differences of thousandths of an inch. Now you understand how the setup guys at ALEMBIC do this by feel, since their hands have done so many, so frequently. J o e y | ||
| gare
Member Username: gare Post Number: 90 Registered: 11-2003 |
Joey Yeah, they are pretty simple procedures. For me it was a matter of remembering (a common occurrence), it's been maybe 10 years since I've done it. I've depended on a guitar tech during that time. I did notice a slight change when I picked it up last nite. I know some is from the neck settling in,and the temp and humidty are also dropping,so some minor tweaking will be needed,but I'll wait a few days to see if the weather stablizes. Also took measurements across the neck with feeler gauges. 'different bass that this bass is NOT set up properly' I noticed that as soon as I picked up my Spector,which I haven't touched for 2 weeks. That'll will be my next victim ! |
