| Author | Message | ||
| lefsalefsa
New Username: lefsalefsa Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2011 |
I am trying to adjust the truss rod and string hight of my Alembic Stanley Clarke signature bass. I like the action to be fairly low - for the moment it's set at 3.0 mm at fret 24 and 2.25 mm at fret 7. However, I have trouble with fret buzz all the way from about fret 5 to at least fret 17. I would like to try loosening the truss rod to get more relief (i.e. to get more of a "banana shape" on the neck) to see if this would help. However, even if I loosen the truss rod completely, the relief is less than 0.5 mm at fret 7. (When holding down the E string at fret 1 and above fret 24, I am not able to slip a 0.5 mm pick between the string and the fret at fret 7.) Can anyone tell me if it is it normal/correct to have so little relief when the truss rod is completely loose? If not, is there anything I can do to get more relief? I use 0.40 strings with standard tuning. Cheers, Atle | ||
| pauldo
Senior Member Username: pauldo Post Number: 878 Registered: 6-2006 |
Atle - I know that there are better qualified persons here than myself to answer your questions. Until they offer their wisdom I can offer you this advice: After tweaking the trussrod (tight or loose) you should allow at least 24 hours for the neck to 'normalize'/ settle into position. good luck! | ||
| 5a_quilt_top
Junior Username: 5a_quilt_top Post Number: 27 Registered: 6-2012 |
Check Joey's Post on Setting Up Your Bass under the "Must Reads" section. I have found his tips to be extremely helpful. In addition, there are some other set-up related posts contained in this section. My advice would be to read all of them and then follow Joey's procedure step-by-step. If you use new strings and are patient & careful, you will be rewarded with an instrument that almost plays itself. Alembics are very easy to adjust, so you need to understand what you're doing and why you're doing it, or you will find yourself going in circles and possibly making more work for yourself. Believe me, if I can do it, anyone can. Good luck. | ||
| that_sustain
Member Username: that_sustain Post Number: 55 Registered: 8-2012 |
If you keep the neck pretty much straight you get an almost fretless like tone that doesn't happen any other way. Try just raising the nut. You'll be able to even lower the bridge after doing so, still diminishing the buzz. Nice, huh? I wouldn't leave the rods completely loose. Wait 24 hours, then tighten them both equally, just a hair. Do this slowly. later | ||
| that_sustain
Member Username: that_sustain Post Number: 56 Registered: 8-2012 |
sorry double post (Message edited by that sustain on October 08, 2012) | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 3173 Registered: 6-2002 |
I took my bass out for rehearsal last week and the neck had moved and was buzzing between frets 3 and 5 only on the B, E, A strings. It only needed half a turn to rectify and the change happened immediately. However during the impending days it's showing more relief than I wanted so I tightened the rods up a tad and it is now fine so I can agree with Pauldo's leave it for a period of time then check again. | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1935 Registered: 9-2002 |
[moderator's edit: as noted by Joey in a message several posts below this one, and noticed by others before he realized it, this (otherwise excellent and helpful) post has in a few places used the word "relief" in a way that is opposite its meaning; a common error that is easy to make when talking about tightening and loosening the truss rod nuts] If I'm understanding this correctly, your truss rod is completely loose and the neck is higher in the middle than at either end . . . . yes, that's what's going to happen. Yes, it's completely normal to loosen the truss rods and have less and less relief! You're going backwards ! We don't loosen the truss rod nuts to get more relief: We tighten them to introduce progressively more relief (banana shape) into the neck. The more you loosen them, the more and more unplayable it will become as the neck becomes flatter and even becomes up-bowed (higher in the middle than both ends, or what you've got now). My first observation would be that these axes DON'T like really light guage strings. We always get these questions with the string sets in the 40-90 range. Remember, you've got a 24 fret length of .25" ebony on top of hardwood laminations: It's begining to make me think that this just isn't enough string tension in total to pull this assembly into relief sometimes. In the real world, few basses will play with a dead straight neck, although some guys can do it. But we shoot for a straight neck, and then put enough relief back with the truss rods (the 'banana shape'!?!?) to where we can play comfortably. When you get to the point where you can hear some string rattle unplugged but not any through the pickups when you're plugged in, that's about as low an action as you're going to get that's useable. Guys with a lighter touch usually fare better than guys that just wail on it with a big pick. That's just the way it is. I'm guessing that this bass has been left long enough with dead loose truss rods that it now has an up-bow: In other words, the 'banana shape' is pointing up at the strings instead of down at the back of the neck, where it's supposed to be. You say that tuned up, it's basically rattling from the first few frets all the way to the last few frets. That's exactly what it would do in this condition. SO . . . . we need to get some relief back in this neck. -Tune to pitch. -Tighten the truss rods gradually (1/4 turn at a time, please) until you can slip a medium pick (or a credit card) between the strings and the 10th fret (7th fret is not close enough to the middle). Do this with a capo on the first fret, your right hand holding the string down at the 24th fret, and hold the medium pick with your left hand. DO NOT do this with the bass laying on its back on a table: DO THIS with the bass in your lap as if you were playing sitting down. Do the E first, than double-check on the G side. The pick should fit easily between the string and fret; it can move the string ever so slightly, but if it really forces it up, add a little more relief, or let some off if the gap is too big. -Once you're there, set your string heights across the 24th fret at 1/8" on the E and the G side. -It will not move all at once. It may take a day or two for it to finish taking its new contour. This should get you going. Once you've settled the bass to this, then fine-tune to where it's just right for you. Just remember: Tightening the truss rods adds relief, not loosening them. I'd go to a .45 set, too. Here's a great quick study on neck set-up by the great Ibanez fretless player, Gary Willis. While aimed at his signature Ibanez axe, most of it applies to fretted basses as well: http://www.garywillis.com/pages/bass/bassmanual/setupmanual.html Best of Luck, J o e y (Message edited by davehouck on October 12, 2012) | ||
| jacko
Senior Member Username: jacko Post Number: 3266 Registered: 10-2002 |
Joey. This comment.."Just remember: Tightening the truss rods adds relief, not loosening them." seems to be totally at odds with your original set up post and also the advice given on Gary Willis's site. In my experience, tightening the truss rods acts against the pull of the strings to flatten the neck. loosening the trussrods introduces more relief (i.e. an upward bow) by allowing the strings to pull the neck into an upward bow - that's with the biggest gap between the strings at the centre point and not vice versa. please correct me if I'm wrong here. graeme | ||
| lefsalefsa
New Username: lefsalefsa Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2011 |
Thanks everyone for your helpful tips and comments! I had already read Joeys post on Setting up Your Bass and agree that it is very helpful and instructive. However, I believe we may have different preferences w.r.t. relief and string gauge, so I am experimenting to try to find the ideal setup for me. Switching to thicker strings is not my preferred option. Joey, the neck is not actually higher in the middle: When using a capo on the first fret and holding down the string at the 24th fret (while keeping the bass in playing position) there is a gap between the string and frets in the middle; a check I did just now shows that it is somewhere between 0.6 mm and 0.7 mm around frets 7-9. (So my initial estimate of less than 0.5 mm was wrong.) My question is: should I be able to achieve a bigger gap, even with light strings? And is it really the case that this gap will increase if I tighten the truss rods?? Like graeme, I am surprised and confused by the statement "Tightening the truss rods adds relief, not loosening them". I also thought the truss rods should act against the pull of the strings.. Perhaps my understanding/definition of relief is wrong? My understanding so far has been that more relief means a bigger gap between frets and strings in the middle of the neck when holding down the string at frets 1 and 24 - is this not correct? | ||
| smokin_dave
Advanced Member Username: smokin_dave Post Number: 351 Registered: 10-2002 |
http://www.garywillis.com/pages/bass/bassmanual/action.html | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1937 Registered: 9-2002 |
I am nuts for trying to write these long posts at 2AM after I come home from work. Of course, I've gotten that COMPLETELY A** BACKWARDS. You're all correct, excuse me. I hope that despite my obvious case of brain-fade, you're on your way to getting it like you want it. My apologies again. J o e y | ||
| that_sustain
Member Username: that_sustain Post Number: 59 Registered: 8-2012 |
I love the sound of '45s, but I'm afraid to put them on a medium Distilliate. The shorter neck, plus..it's lightning fast thin profile makes me cautious. Is there any reason I should be bigredbass? | ||
| lefsalefsa
New Username: lefsalefsa Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2011 |
Joey, thanks for clarifying this. Good to hear that I understood your old post about setting up the bass correctly :-) As I said, I found it very helpful. Since my truss rods are now almost completely loose and I don't want to increase the string gauge, I guess this means I will have to either raise the strings or learn to play with an even lighter touch.. If anyone knows about other solutions, please let me know! Cheers, Atle | ||
| tubeperson
Advanced Member Username: tubeperson Post Number: 385 Registered: 5-2005 |
It may be worth your while to explore same gauge strings with different tension. The gauge of the string is not an indicator of its tension. And yes, Alembics like the typewritter touch, as John Entwhistle was known for, but you can adjust them with more relief for a heavier touch. That become a personal choice, and it may pay for you to explore different gauges and brands of strings and tension with a local luthier, who can supply some guidance here. One of my Ricks (a 4001) could not tolerate a .105 gauge roundwound set, but .100 's work really well and the neck is stable. James Jamerson (if he would have used an Alembic) might have had a tough time with the flexibility of the Alembic system, as he had a very heavy touch and heavy gauge strings. Still, perhaps he could have dialed it in, the adjustment system as a whole system is that flexible, and the necks ar so well constructed. By the way, I use a .105 to .45 gauge set on my Stanley Clarke Brown Bass, and it is quite a treat, short scale and all! | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 7865 Registered: 6-2000 |
You need a heavier tension, not necessarily a heavier gauge (but often it will lead to a heavier gauge). The other option is to have a procedure called a heat bend performed on the instrument to increase the amount of bow available. We can do it here. | ||
| that_sustain
Member Username: that_sustain Post Number: 60 Registered: 8-2012 |
Thanks tubeperson. Much appreciated. I think I want the tone I keep hearing here at the club. Almost like a vintage acoustic guitar in the upper registers, but silky down low. Would that be low gauge, low tension? thanks again I'm a severe Stanley fan too, btw. | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 2000 Registered: 11-2004 |
No wonder some folks go for graphite necks but for me you cannot beat the look of wood! Oh 2000th post!!!! | ||
| tubeperson
Advanced Member Username: tubeperson Post Number: 387 Registered: 5-2005 |
Terryc - that's a "ton" of fun at the club for you! Congrats | ||
| lefsalefsa
New Username: lefsalefsa Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2011 |
Thanks again for all helpful tips! I will try to find strings with heavier tension. If that fails I might consider a heat bend, but I live in Norway and don't know if it possible to have it done locally. Cheers, Atle | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 1805 Registered: 2-2005 |
Another thing you might try is to loosen the truss rods fully. Insert something rigid but soft outside between the strings and fretboard and over tighten the strings. Let it sit this way for a week or two slightly tightening the strings over the time. After the couple of weeks snug the truss rod nuts up and remove whatever you used between the strings and neck. After this try adjusting the relief to where you would like to see it. I have done this once before and it reset the neck enough to get the relief where I wanted it to be. Again it does take a day or so for the relief to settle in when the truss rod is loosened. Keith | ||
| dfung60
Senior Member Username: dfung60 Post Number: 566 Registered: 5-2002 |
When Alembic made your bass, they set it up for the environmental conditions and wood conditions at that time. Each piece of wood is different, so each neck's neutral condition (no strings on) will be different. When it's strung up and relief is set, they do whatever what's needed to hit the factory target for action. But your climate and desired action may not be in the range where you can adjust to what you need using the truss rod. I think the next thing you should do is find a good tech to take a look at the frets. Sometimes there might be some unevenness in the neck or frets that's causing your buzz. Your bass didn't have this problem when it came out of the factory, but can be the result of wear, wood shifting, or imprecise prior fret work. This kind of buzz is more likely to show up with light strings and low action (although I don't think you're target action is all that low) and the truss rod won't adjust it out. Another thing that a good shop can do is to use a neck jig to force a little more relief into the neck, then tap the neck to see if the they can get the truss rod to shift a little (this works on guitars, unlikely they will have the right jig for a through-body bass!). They use a jig like this and a heat blanket to do the heat bend. If you have a lot of fret height, a good tech can also mill some relief into the tops of the frets, regardless of the shape of the wood. This can be very effective for eliminating buzz when you want a very flat neck. A bunch of stuff to try! I'd definitely pay a visit to a good tech first to see whether the problem can be solved in the frets. David Fung | ||
| growlypants
Junior Username: growlypants Post Number: 24 Registered: 3-2011 |
Can an identical replacement set of strings have greater tension than the set it replaced? My recent experience suggests.. yes! Anyone have a similar experience? | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 10988 Registered: 5-2002 |
Dan; did you remove all of the old strings before putting the new ones on, or did you replace one string at a time? | ||
| growlypants
Junior Username: growlypants Post Number: 25 Registered: 3-2011 |
Good question! In fact, as opposed to the way I usually do it, I removed them all at once, oiled the ebony fingerboard, then re-strung the whole 5-string. | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 1193 Registered: 1-2005 |
Are you noticing a change in the neck relief, or can you feel a difference by playing it? If the former, it could just mean that you need to do a (quick?) setup. Or, maybe the formula for the strings changed in the interim between? Seems much less likely. Are you sure they are absolutely identical gauges? | ||
| growlypants
Junior Username: growlypants Post Number: 26 Registered: 3-2011 |
Yes, they're absolutely identical gauges, same CX-3 strings, everything! The tension on the new set resulted in much higher action at the 12th fret, I increased tension on both truss rods, which lowered the action back to where it was, but then I began to think...why did this happen? | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 1836 Registered: 2-2005 |
While it was a year or two back I had the opposite case where I put on a new set of CX3's and didn't have enough relief. I asked Mica at that time if they had changed anything to give the strings less tension and she said nothing had changed. It hasn't done it since then so I just assume it was coincidence that the bass needed adjusting at the same time I changed strings. Keith | ||
| growlypants
Junior Username: growlypants Post Number: 27 Registered: 3-2011 |
Thanks for all your input, everyone. It's certainly no biggie. I was just curious. The tension on the truss rods, when I went to tighten, seemed looser than I remember, so what may have happened was, when I removed all the strings, somehow the neck breathed a sigh of relief... who knows? It also may have to do with the relative humidity (low) right now. | ||
| growlypants
Junior Username: growlypants Post Number: 28 Registered: 3-2011 |
By the way, it's an '09 MK, relatively new... so it wouldn't surprise me if things were still settling in a bit. |
