| Author | Message | ||
| phys49
New Username: phys49 Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2005 |
I recently bought a bass advertised as a Stanley Clarke model. I bought it from a well known Alembic dealer in Florida. This was my first Alembic purchase. It turned out to be an Essence with some serious upgrades. Is this accepted marketing of Alembic products? Is there actually any significant difference in an SC model and an Essence with Europa electronics? To be fair, he bass is a very good looking bass and I did get what I considered to be a good price. | ||
| glocke
Junior Username: glocke Post Number: 32 Registered: 9-2002 |
If it is the place I am thinking of I don't think they would intentionally mislead someone...but it is pretty hard to get an Essence mixed up with an SC...Did they post pics of the bass before you ordered it? | ||
| phys49
New Username: phys49 Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2005 |
The pictures of the bass were accurate. It has a small standard body, crown headstock, purpleheart laminates in the neck, Europa electronics, and side LED markers. I could not tell the difference between this bass and an SC model. So I am trying to determine if there actually is any difference. | ||
| keith_h
Junior Username: keith_h Post Number: 18 Registered: 2-2005 |
The basic Stanley Clarke Signature basses have their own standard electronics that consist of a Volume, Pan and 2 Q switches. I looked at one of the basses you described when I bought my Brown Bass. At that time the description appeared accurate as a Stanley or SC Custom (not Signature) with Europa electronics and were priced accordingly. The body, neck, etc are the same as the SC Signature. Neither of my basses have the Europa electronics so I cannot speak on there characteristics. I will say that there are others here that are very satisfied with their basses that have Europa electronics. Another thing to keep in mind is Alembic offers a wide range of electronics options on their instruments. All of which are very high quality. I have both Essence and Anniversery electronics on my basses and am happy with both. Which one did you get? The last time I looked they had a couple of nice looking ones in Buckeye Burl and in Vermillion. Keith | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 860 Registered: 3-2004 |
Yes, the electronics are different. In each case, you would have a volume and a pickup pan control, that much is the same. With Europa, you get a single filter that applies to the sound from both pickups, and a Q switch that modifies how that filter works. In addition, you get a pair of toggle switches that will provide a fixed boost/cut to a fixed bass/treble frequency, again applied to the tone as a whole. With Signature electronics, you get two filter/Q switch combinations and each one is applied to only one pickup. This gives you the flexibility to apply the right tone to each pickup individually, possibly pulling out the lows from the neck pickup and the highs from the bridge. You don't get the bass/treble toggles, though. The list price difference is that Signature electronics are +300 vs. Europa electronics. In practice, both configurations work very well. I suspect that you will be quite pleased with the control you have over your tone with this setup. | ||
| dannobasso
Advanced Member Username: dannobasso Post Number: 249 Registered: 3-2004 |
If the price was cool, then you have a great package. I picked up a Distillate 5 via Mica and Susan. I love it. The only difference is that I have a selector instead of a panpot. I'm having it put in my new Excel 5. Enjoy it and fill the world with kickazz sounds. Danno. | ||
| rklisme
Advanced Member Username: rklisme Post Number: 208 Registered: 5-2004 |
Hey Perry To answer your question, I feel that you were misled and while the end result is you got a nice bass no matter what the electronics package, it is not what most of us would expect if we were told we were going to get a Stanley Clarke Signature bass. The end result is hopefully you have a bass that you can fully appreciate and be happy with. Rory | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 536 Registered: 6-2002 |
If you start juggling with the options in the Quote Generator, you'll find that you can easily select some options on an Essence to make it a Stanley Clarke Standard Signature, a.k.a. "small body" without ph neck lams and no back laminate. You will also find that by the time you've upgraded the Essence, you're probably at a higher price point than if you had selected the Signature Standard direct - but there is some room to play with. Also a dealer can probably make a better deal if they order for stock. So yes, it would probably be a very good price if it had included the Signature electronics, and it probably still is a nice price with the Europa electronics. And it has the ph neck lams, and the side LEDs ... | ||
| malthumb
Advanced Member Username: malthumb Post Number: 322 Registered: 5-2002 |
The quick answer is "What does the Serial Number tell you?" If the s/n includes "SJ" or "SC", it is a Stanley Clarke that the dealer specced to have a downgrade on the electronics. If the s/n has a "K", it is an Essence optioned up to include the Small Standard body. We had this discussion a couple years ago on how to properly name models that are sort of hybrids. One of my basses has "MKC" in the s/n, but it has Series II electronics. I usually refer to it as a Mark King / Series II. It carries the MKC because I ordered it as a Mark King Deluxe and added Series II electronics. I could have done the reverse and ended up with almost the exact same bass, but it would have cost me more if I'd started it as a Series II and specced it down. Peace, James | ||
| 88persuader
Intermediate Member Username: 88persuader Post Number: 122 Registered: 5-2004 |
One thing i noticed is if you use the quote generator and select a "lesser" electronics package (like ordering a SC standard but with Essence electronics) the price doesn't go down. You still pay full price for the SC standard. That's a little lame in my view point. I'd LOVE to know, considering you can more or less mix and match all you'd like, what makes for example a Stanley Clark a Stanley Clark? Is it the body shape and size alone? Electronics? Simply a name? If you buy an Essence with a full size standard Alembic body and Signature electronics is it still a custom Essence or is it a Mark King signature?... This CAN be confusing! Especially when it comes to price. | ||
| alanbass1
Junior Username: alanbass1 Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2005 |
We are having this same debate regarding Mark King signature's. I always held the view that a signature should either be endorsed by the player or replicate the instrument that the player themselves use. Therefore, both the Stanley Clarke and Mark King signature basses ought have the same shape and characteristics of the bass that he used. I have little doubt that the Alembic Perry bought is very nice, but now he has niggling doubts which isn't the way it should be. | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 863 Registered: 3-2004 |
I think it's a totally different discussion. In one case, we're talking about an actual Mark King Signature bass that just doesn't happen to be a replica of what he plays on stage. In the other, we're talking about a lesser model instrument dressed up to look like a Stanley Clarke Signature model. | ||
| 88persuader
Intermediate Member Username: 88persuader Post Number: 123 Registered: 5-2004 |
Good point Bob. | ||
| serialnumber12
Intermediate Member Username: serialnumber12 Post Number: 181 Registered: 12-2004 |
You still came out on top! | ||
| glocke
Junior Username: glocke Post Number: 33 Registered: 9-2002 |
Im confused about the original post...The essence has a body style that is unique from an SC, yet the original poster goes on to say "I could not tell the difference between this bass and an SC model. So I am trying to determine if there actually is any difference." So it is either an Essence with the Essence body style or it isn't....can someone clarify this for me? | ||
| phys49
New Username: phys49 Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2005 |
In response to glocke's post, the serial number is an Essence serial number(with a K) but the body shape was upgraded to a small standard shape si it is not shaped like a traditional Essence. Other upgrades have made this a very nice bass which looks and sounds like an SC. | ||
| alanbass1
Junior Username: alanbass1 Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2005 |
I understand Bob's point regarding my previous comment. But now I'm really confused. If the bass has a Stanley Clarke body shape, and other upgrades from what would be an Essence, how is this an Essence? Is it not the fact that you have a Stanley Clark 'type' bass with Essence electronics. I don't think serial numbers should confuse the issue, or have I missed something here? | ||
| keith_h
Junior Username: keith_h Post Number: 19 Registered: 2-2005 |
I think this all boils down to what average people think of when they see an Alembic bass. When you say SC they think of the short scale small body. There is the other thread discussing a similar issue with MK models. Other than set neck or neck through, body style does not determine the model of an Alembic bass as much as the electronics installed. The Signature line has a standard set of electronics just as the Series instruments have. After all doesn't Stanley actually play a small body with Series electronics (which is different that the basic Signature model)? In any event I would expect the bass to have a very good sound and be fun to play. Keith | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 1596 Registered: 5-2002 |
Keith; just for fun, I would like to offer some alternative thoughts to your post. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to suggest that "average people" don't know the difference between a bass and a guitar <g>. The average bass player probably doesn't know what an Alembic is. The average bass player may have heard of Stanley Clarke but I doubt that the average player knows that he plays an Alembic. I also doubt that the average bass player can conjure up an image of Stanley's bass; and I really doubt the average player know that it's a 30.75" short scale. I'm thinking there is a relatively small subset of people calling themselves bassplayers that know Stanley plays an Alembic. Of that group, there is a smaller subset that knows that there is a Stanley Clarke model Alembic. Of that group there is probably a smaller subset that knows that the electronics on a stock Stanley Clarke model Alembic are different that those on the basses Stanley plays. Then there is the group of people that knows you can custom order a Stanley Clarke model and change the electronics. And there is the group that knows you can custom order another Alembic model and specify the small body that usually comes on the Stanley Clarke model. And at this point I think we're essentially talking about the members of our group <g>!! Perry; welcome to the group and congrats on your purchase of a great bass! If you like, and get a chance, please post some pictures to the showcase section. | ||
| keith_h
Junior Username: keith_h Post Number: 21 Registered: 2-2005 |
Dave, Perhaps I should have used a different term for "average people" and said something like "bass players" or "musicians".:-) In any event in the circle of folks I have known, through the years, Alembic basses are not that obscure or unknown. Most of the folks are around my age, give or take 4-5 years, and were either fusion types or Dead Heads. One even played an Alembic bass (a Spoiler I think). So maybe it's an age thing (my kids keep telling me I'm getting old).:-) Most of them also live in areas that are a little more metropolitan than where I currently reside (i.e. Chicago, SF, LA, etc). Now their guitars on the other hand were a surprise to me when I first started looking for an Alembic last summer. Always new they made great basses but never even dawned on me that they made guitars. But back to the point I was trying to here is the body style is not the driving factor for what model of instrument you have but is more driven by the electronics. And I still think when folks say Stanley's bass the short scale small body comes to mind even if they do not know what it is called. It is a unique shape as basses go after all. On a side note, where abouts is Candler in regards to Ashville? I have a daughter going to UNCA and my wife and I plan on retiring up in that area 4-5 years from now. We want to be relatively close to Ashville for the medical and amentities but prefer to live in a small town or unicorporated area. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 1602 Registered: 5-2002 |
Candler is a small town on the southwest edge of Asheville. I actually live 15 minutes south of Candler, about 30 minutes from downtown Asheville, tucked away in a small cove. Asheville is, in my opinion, a wonderful place. So, where is Holly Springs? | ||
| ajdover
Intermediate Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 199 Registered: 11-2003 |
On whether people know what an Alembic is ... I've taken my basses to various venues, open mikes, etc., and the vast majority of musicians I've encountered here (Fayetteville, NC) do not know what an Alembic is, nor have they heard of one. Some of the bass players do, but that's about it. I guess that's due to Alembic's low profile advertising-wise vis a vis Fender, Gibson, etc. When I lived up in the DC area I encountered more musicians who knew what an Alembic was, but there weren't many. As far as Stanley's bass goes, I guess one could classify it as an SC even though it doesn't have the electronics of a "standard" or "deluxe" SC. I mean, I've got a Spyder, but it doesn't have Series II electronics, two master volumes, note inlays, like John Entwistle's had. Does this mean it's not an "Entwistle model?" I don't think so. Few of us could afford an exact replica of a famous artist's instrument (unless, of course, they're playing Fenders or some other mass produced instrument). I think what Alembic does is capture the essence, the spirit of that artist's Alembic of choice rather than an exact replica (which would be hideously expensive in the case of the Spyder - I've asked!) in order to place it in more hands. For me, this is OK - I'd like to at least capture some of the magic that such an instrument provides. With my Spyder, I think I do. My two cents, Alan | ||
| rami
Senior Member Username: rami Post Number: 472 Registered: 6-2002 |
What's there to even call that Bass an Essence? An Essence is a 34" scale Bass with an Essence body and electronics - Master volume, Pan, and Tone. If the serial number on your Bass begins with SC, then what you have there IS a Stanley Clarke model with Europa/Rogue electronics (which by the way, are a significant step above Essence electronics) instead of the signature electronics. And truth be known, even Stanley Clarke doesn't play the Stanley Clarke model. He plays a Series I with the small standard body. That's the REAL Stanley Clarke Bass - despite whatever else you want to call it. (Message edited by rami on April 17, 2005) | ||
| pace
Intermediate Member Username: pace Post Number: 148 Registered: 4-2004 |
Im not sure how the pricing stacks up side by side, but using the Essence as a starting point (the most affordable neck-thru, most affordable electronics w/ LP filter), and adding a couple of $100-$500 upgrades here or there, you might be able to come out ahead if you do it right..... The bass I'm having done right now will be classified as an Essence despite the different body shape, scale length, etc etc..... | ||
| rklisme
Advanced Member Username: rklisme Post Number: 216 Registered: 5-2004 |
I think the original question has to do with is this a Stanley Clarke bass or not? The answer is no it isn't! If anyone of us wanted to build a custom bass starting with a platform of a Essence or any other model that is one thing but to walk into a music store and not have them tell you exactly what you are buying is very mis-leading. If I were to use the logic I am reading here I could go home with a Fernandez or some other copy and just because it had a small standard body it would be okay to call it a Alembic Stanley Clarke bass or for the Fender crowd how would you feel if you were told you were buying 60's pre-CBS Jazz bass and found out that is was a 2000 re-issue. Would it be okay because it was a Fender and it looked like a 60's pre-CBS Jazz Bass? I think not. If it is a Essencse with a small standard body and Europa electronics I need to be told that. I think a good sales person would at least explain the differences in what I am purchasing versus what I think I am purchasing. Maybe being a Alembic dealer it might even benefit me to explain the different options that were available. Stanley Clarke Signature basses versus Series I which is what Stanley really plays versus any other platform that Alembic offers. I know if it were me and I am laying out a couple grand or more then I sure as hell better be getting what I was told I was getting. Not something that if you look at it sideways when the moon is in the seventh hour just as a groundhog sticks his head out of the ground it could be called a Stanley Clarke bass on some planets! Perry originally asked,"Is this accepted marketing of Alembic products?" The answer is and should be no. What is the first thing any Alembic owner ask for when wanting to purchase a used Alembic? SERIAL NUMBER! Why is that? So you as a buyer can be as informed as you can about the purchase of a potential instrument. You don't want it to just look like a Series I when you make that purchase you want to know that it is one. Rory | ||
| 88persuader
Intermediate Member Username: 88persuader Post Number: 124 Registered: 5-2004 |
I wish Mica or someone from Alembic would explain the companys "offical" criteria for calling a model and particular model. Only THEY can tell us what makes a Essence or a Stanley Clark what it is. I once again for kicks used the quote generator to see if I'd save money buying a Stanley Clark standard with cheaper electronics and the answer is no. I love Alembics and am very proud to play them but I still think that's a little lame. What I DIDN'T do (and will) is use the quote generator to see how much it would cost to buy an Essence with a small scale neck and a small standard body. Then i'll add signature electronics. I wonder if the price will be the same as a Sc standard? We'll see. :-) | ||
| 88persuader
Intermediate Member Username: 88persuader Post Number: 125 Registered: 5-2004 |
Well if i did it correctly a Essence done as a Stanley Clark is actually more expensive. | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 865 Registered: 3-2004 |
True, but you may not want all of the options on the SC model. Also, the monthly special can provide an advantage in starting with the Essence model, depending on what you're looking for. Also, these basses were built and bought one or two price increases ago, so the relative prices of the models and options could have been different then. Certainly, a pre-increase version is likely to be less than ordering a custom today. As far as what the model is considered to be, the serial number says it. I am told that if too many changes are made to an instrument, it gets the "C" designation instead of the original model. But none of that should matter. You have an Alembic bass with a certain set of features. The names used to create it are nice to make it easier to talk about, but should anyone pay more or less for identical instruments based upon the letter in the serial number? They shouldn't in my book. Personally, I would value an Essence done up as an SC model with PH neck laminates and Europa electronics to be a few hundred dollars below an SC Standard model. On the used market, it appears that Signature electronics hold value better than Europa does, but it's hard to say with so few Europa-equipped instruments changing hands. | ||
| malthumb
Advanced Member Username: malthumb Post Number: 326 Registered: 5-2002 |
bsee wrote: "As far as what the model is considered to be, the serial number says it. I am told that if too many changes are made to an instrument, it gets the "C" designation instead of the original model. But none of that should matter. You have an Alembic bass with a certain set of features. The names used to create it are nice to make it easier to talk about, but should anyone pay more or less for identical instruments based upon the letter in the serial number? They shouldn't in my book. " I think this summarizes it pretty well. Bottom line is, when you have it in your hands and listen to it with your ears and twiddle with the controls that are on it, did you feel you got your money's worth? If yes, buy it. If not, well.... Where this gets dicey, though, is how do you describe it to the person who is buying it from you? If I were to sell my 5 string, s/n 00MKC12421, I could very easily describe it as a Series II. The content is easily equivalent to a pre-1997 Series II, but it doesn't carry the same number of body laminates as a post 1997 Series II (5 instead of 7). Most people familiar with Alembic's s/n system or willing to take the time to look it up will recognize that it is a Mark King Deluxe (MK) with a lot of custom options (C). At the time I ordered it, I could have ordered a Series II and had most of the options included in the base price, but it would have listed a couple grand higher and the only additional content I would have gotten would have been gold plated bridge and tailstock and the two additional body laminates. Woulda been nice, but not necessary. Peace, James | ||
| rami
Senior Member Username: rami Post Number: 474 Registered: 6-2002 |
(Message edited by rami on April 17, 2005) | ||
| rami
Senior Member Username: rami Post Number: 475 Registered: 6-2002 |
Hey James, I agree. Alembic Basses are so custom anyway that in the end, it makes no real difference what you call it. Order an Essence with a small standard body with Europa/Rogue electronics, Purpleheart laminates, LEDs...... What you end up with is one awesome Bass - whatever you want to call it. Alembic will "Officially" designate it by it's serial number, but who really cares? It's still an awsome Bass. | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 866 Registered: 3-2004 |
Well, here's where it matters... Around the first of the year, a nearly new Essence/SC with Europa electronics, abalone inlays, PH neck lams and side LEDs went for about $2300. It had several upgrades over an SC standard (except electronics) that made it compelling. There were several buyers (bidders) interested, so the price was fairly set by the market. What street value would an upgraded Essence that falls short of an SC standard have? There's a guy on eBay right now trying to sell one of these Essence/SC models. He listed it as having a $5700 value and got jumped on by several "in the know". The bass has unknown electronics (four pots, maybe Epic?) and no fretboard inlays. If he thought he was buying an SC, he probably paid more than he would have had he known better. As an SC standard, it would go $2000-2500 on the used market, but what is a short scale neck-throug with Epic electronics likely to bring in? $1500? Maybe a couple hundred more? What matters most here is that these practices set up the semi-literate buyer to get scammed. The confusion is not uncommon, we see these sorts of discussions every so often and regularly respond to inaccurate eBay listings. I wish there were a way to make it less cryptic. -Bob | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 405 Registered: 11-2002 |
Just to throw out another perspective: how do you decide in which section of the Showcase you should post your photos? I put mine under Rogue, because it looks pretty much like one if you ignore the knobs. But it has only a 'C' in the serial number (and in fact it was priced using Europa as the base model). After a quick skim I noticed that son_of_magni faced a similar problem, and he ended up under Custom ("My fretless"): "Strange thing just happened. I was posting a pic on the MK section and when I looked at the serial number I realized it doesn't have MK in it, just C." There's an interesting perspective from Mica on the subject further down in that thread. Personally, I tended to go looking through Showcase to see what a body shape would look like. And I guess if an instrument has pretty much a standard body shape, and some pretty much standard electronics package, I would be inclined to call it a <xyz> body with <abc> electronics. In other words, I probably would not classify it as 'C' just because you added a Q or tone switch, chose a different peghead, threw in a few extra body or neck laminates, etc. I guess it's all pretty academic, because there are so many variations that you can't hope to cover them with simple names, or encode everything in a serial number, unless you pick a model and don't change either the shape or the electronics at all. Certainly when it comes time to buy or sell, full disclosure is important. But generally, I think the "<body> with <electronics>" approach is pretty useful. | ||
| malthumb
Advanced Member Username: malthumb Post Number: 327 Registered: 5-2002 |
bsee, I understand your point, but here's where I get to be a little callous. In a "buyer beware", or better stated "buyer be aware" sort of way. If you are considering spending money in the used Alembic range, YOU need to make sure YOU know how to confirm the value of what YOU are considering spending YOUR money on. You also need to determine for yourself whether you value the instrument based on what you know about it and how you will use it and as compared to other instruments you can get for the same price. I suspect that people that are taken by highly inflated prices are people who want to buy an Alembic just because it's an Alembic, without truly knowing what an Alembic is and without taking the time to find out. I'll admit my viewpoint is probably callous, but I'll bet it's also fairly accurate. Peace, James | ||
| rklisme
Advanced Member Username: rklisme Post Number: 219 Registered: 5-2004 |
James I agree with your buyer beware scenario however how this thread started was that a supposed reputable DEALER in Florida sold a instrument as something that it is not. It maybe a great instrument it may sound and feel wonderful but it was not represented correctly. On the resale market if for some reason you need to sale your instrument you are not going to get what you thought you might because it is not what you thought it was. What you thought was a great deal when you purchased it based on what one might pay for a Signature instrument may now mean you payed to much. I have been an Alembic owner for quite some time but didn't know squat about them other than I liked the sound until I joined this site. I guess I am surprised that not one person other than myself looks at the dealer as having any fault in this. He had the serial number he sells Alembics and he chose not to inform the buyer properly of what he was buying. If he had done so we would not have this thread as a discussion because Perry, would have known exactly what he was getting. Not a Stanley Clarke Signature bass but and Essence with Europa electronics and a small standard body. Rory | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 872 Registered: 3-2004 |
James, I was thinking along those lines after my post and considered a follow-up, but never made one. In a private sale, I'd have to agree with you absolutely. We should all be aware that a private seller may not provide a full and accurate disclosure, particularly since there's no reason to believe they know anything more than the buyer. On the other hand, you really ought to get an absolutely full and clear disclosure if you're buying from an Alembic dealer. There should be no way in the world that someone should buy a new bass from a licensed dealer and then be confused about what they bought. While the industry may allow for it on garden-variety instruments, it's not something I would expect on an Alembic sale. I think dealers who order and offer these knock-off customs have a higher responsibility to the buyer than those selling the more straightforward models. Shouldn't the licensed Alembic dealer be the trusted place where a buyer would go to receive the education you recommend? They may be too close to the business to realize that this confusion is occurring, so hopefully the feedback will reach them. -Bob | ||
| malthumb
Advanced Member Username: malthumb Post Number: 328 Registered: 5-2002 |
Rory, I do share your perspective on the dealer's responsibility in this. My comments strayed from that part of the original post. I was basically focused on the aspect of the buyer getting what they perceived to be value for their money. If the Dealer knew that the s/n was a "K" code and called it a Stanley Clarke, they mis-represented it. It's still up for debate as to whether or not the same bass with the same content is more valuable if it is an Essence contented up or a Signature contented down. Either way, the Dealer has to call it what it is designated as. Peace, James | ||
| malthumb
Advanced Member Username: malthumb Post Number: 329 Registered: 5-2002 |
Bob, Our posts crossed in cyberspace. Looks like you, me and Rory are in violent agreement on the dealer's responsibility on this one. They should know better. Peace, James | ||
| ajdover
Intermediate Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 200 Registered: 11-2003 |
As far as I know there is no law (other than truth in advertising, and the lemon law - correct me if I'm wrong) that holds a dealer responsible for a product that isn't what it is actually advertised as. There are so many examples of products being advertised as something they're not (think the Showtime Rotisserie BBQ), this forum does not have enough space to elaborate on them. However .. I've bought two basses from this dealer (if it's the one we're all alluding to ...). They were exactly as advertised, and I made sure to ask questions. Ultimately, it is on the buyer to ask. If they don't, and get something other than advertised, they shouldn't be surprised. They should, however, be a bit angry at themselves for not inquiring prior to the sale. The dealer is there to make a living, not be your buddy. Sad, but true. If he can get you to buy something and make an increased profit, it's good from his perspective. Does this make it ethical? Probably not. Does it happen? Yep, every day. Of course, if a dealer keeps doing this, eventually word will get out and people will stop patronizing his business. Think about it. We buy new and used cars. Would one buy a new car, for example, without asking about certain options, payment plans, warranties, etc.? Nope. A house? Hell no. Same goes for high-end basses. One should ask what it is and isn't. If one doesn't, then caveat emptor ... buyer beware or be aware, as has been previously mentioned. I can only speak from my experience with this particular dealer. He's done right by me in two transactions in excess of $5K (one Alembic, one Pedulla). If it was on his site, and the buyer didn't ask questions, then it's on the buyer IMHO. My two cents, Alan P.S. You can spec out an Alembic in so many ways ... I get confused just thinking about what the serial number should read .... However, in the end, it's still an Alembic. To me, that puts it head and shoulders above anything else out there, serial number/model be damned. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 1611 Registered: 5-2002 |
"If he can get you to buy something and make an increased profit, it's good from his perspective. Does this make it ethical? Probably not." Without speaking to the particular case at hand (I don't know the dealer's side of the story), I would like to respectfully offer an alternative to the above quote. The quote appears to state that if a business person can make more money for himself by taking an action that is unethical, then that is a good thing for the business person. (Perhaps what Alan is saying is that the business person may only think that it is a good thing.) I'm thinking it may be more accurate to suggest that if a business person can make more money for himself by taking an action that is unethical, then that is never a good thing for the business person. Unethical actions cause suffering for both parties. It seems to me that treating others with respect and compassion is more truly rewarding than living a life based on selfishness and greed. Again, I'm not speaking here to the case at hand. Indeed, if the dealer is the one that many here appear to be thinking of, then past testimonials strongly suggest that they treat their customers very fairly. | ||
| rklisme
Advanced Member Username: rklisme Post Number: 220 Registered: 5-2004 |
It is funny how we can make excuses in life to do the wrong thing but whatever happened to doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do? People can lie, steal, cheat, and it is victim beware. You should have known better! You didn't ask the right question! I'm sorry but I don't buy it. Do I know this happens everyday? Sure, does that make it right? I don't think so! I'm just talking about doing the right thing which didn't happen in this case. We can blame the buyer for not being a little more informed while making a purchase on a dream that all of us share, but do your really want to? Rory | ||
| ajdover
Advanced Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 202 Registered: 11-2003 |
To me, this is, in some ways (less so) like those who would sue McDonald's for making them obese. No one is putting a gun to anyone's head and saying "buy this Essence, er, Stanley Clarke, er, Europa, er... Series I, etc." If a business offers a product, and someone buys it without asking questions about it, then they get what they get. To come back later and say, well, it's not what I thought it was ... too bad. If you want the product, then it is on you to ask questions before buying, period. If you find out later on that it isn't an Essence, a quarter pounder with cheese, something that makes you fat, well, that's on you. Bottom line: there is personal responsibility. Case in point: I bought a Gibson RD77 Artist off of Ebay. I took a chance, and thought that the seller was selling an instrument that was as advertised. When I got it, it wasn't. Did I file a lawsuit? Nope. I didn't ask enough questions, bought it anyway. Anything after that is on me. I'm still trying to get it to where I want it. Again, on ME. All I could do is leave negative feedback (which I did.). People make decisions to buy things. They make these decisions based on the information available. If they don't ask for more information, and take what is there, then they have no one to blame but themselves. My two cents, Alan | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 873 Registered: 3-2004 |
Alan, eBay isn't a supposedly respectable dealer. If the dealer who is supposed to be your information conduit tells you it's an SC, then what are you supposed to do? Call another dealer? Call Santa Rosa? The dealer is Santa Rosa's local presence and shouldn't by slipping things by people. We're not talking about commodity items, a used Alembic in a generic shop, or a private deal here. The Alembic dealer should go beyond the norm to ensure that a buyer is satisfied. It should be the equivalent of shopping for Mercedes or BMW instead of a Ford. When you're paying $3K+ for a basswhen the typical instrument sells for under $1K, you deserve personalized service at a higher standard. | ||
| rklisme
Advanced Member Username: rklisme Post Number: 221 Registered: 5-2004 |
Perry says,"I recently bought a bass ADVERTISED as a Stanley Clarke model. I bought it from a well known Alembic dealer in Florida. This was my first Alembic purchase. It turned out to be an Essence with some serious upgrades." Alan says,"As far as I know there is no law (other than truth in ADVERTISING," As far as I can see no one wants to bring a lawsuit towards anyone. We just want to be treated fair in the market place. If this was a back alley deal with a guy with a trench coat on then I would agree with Alan. I don't feel that everytime I go to Wendy's I need to ask is there going to be a finger in my chili? Is that a real Cadillac motor or is that a pinto engine made to look like one? Is this really Coca Cola or could it be kerosene? Most of us expect a certain amount of truth from our major retailers. The really cool thing about this site I find is how one of you might see somthing that is not right in the way of an Alembic product that is for sale and then go out to notify the rest of us so we don't get caught up in a scam or end up misled into purchasing something that doesn't seem quite right. I think that type of attitude is very welcome these days and one of the many reasons why we come to this site. It is nice to feel someone has your back! Alan, I want to say personally that while I don't agree with you this time and there has been many times that I have, I appreciate the way you expressed your opinions without malace. Thanks for creating a little excitement for a guy that is housebound! I'm letting go of this one. Rory | ||
| serialnumber12
Intermediate Member Username: serialnumber12 Post Number: 186 Registered: 12-2004 |
Alembic is not only the best ,but so are its Club members! | ||
| ajdover
Advanced Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 203 Registered: 11-2003 |
One last post on this, then like Rory, I'm out ... "Alan, eBay isn't a supposedly respectable dealer. If the dealer who is supposed to be your information conduit tells you it's an SC, then what are you supposed to do? Call another dealer? Call Santa Rosa? The dealer is Santa Rosa's local presence and shouldn't by slipping things by people. " Bob, you're right, Ebay is not the most reputable dealer. One is at the mercy of someone on the other end selling something that is difficult to verify independently as to authenticity, condition, etc. I knew this when buying the RD, and took a calculated risk I thought was acceptable. It turned out it wasn't, and now I have an instrument that required work to make it playable (which it now is, and it's awesome. It's Gibson's Alembic, if there is such a thing!). The dealer in question here posts photos of their instruments online. Most of the ones they have on their site as SCs have clear pics of the electronics (knobs, switches, etc.). If I were going for a SC deluxe, and saw Europa switches on it, I'd ask the question. How would I know to ask? By going to the Alembic site, playing other Alembics if possible and comparing, etc. I agree the dealership in question shouldn't be "slipping things by folks," but if my experience with them is any gauge, it's not something they do (or did) deliberately or regularly. Could be a simple oversight on their part. In the end, if the instrument pleases the customer, that's all that really matters. If it doesn't for any number of reasons, then there is a problem. If the dealer hopes to earn repeat business (and hence stay in business) it will work with the customer to resolve the source of the problem or dissatisfaction with the product. If it doesn't, it probably won't be in business much longer as word of their customer service gets out. In the case of Alembics, word spreads pretty fast from what I've noticed here in the Club. I've not heard too many folks say good things about Ed Roman, for example, but have heard many speak platitudes about Bass Central, Superbass.net, and Bass Northwest. I also know that many here have used those businesses for Alembic purchases, and were quite happy with them. So these guys must be doing something right. "We're not talking about commodity items, a used Alembic in a generic shop, or a private deal here. The Alembic dealer should go beyond the norm to ensure that a buyer is satisfied. It should be the equivalent of shopping for Mercedes or BMW instead of a Ford. When you're paying $3K+ for a basswhen the typical instrument sells for under $1K, you deserve personalized service at a higher standard." Speaking only for myself, I don't care whether it's a Ford Focus or a Ferrari Enzo. If I'm spending money numbering in the thousands, I ask questions, verify, etc., and expect that the dealer respect the fact I'm plunking down what is, for me, a lot of money. Once you hand over that check, save warranties, guarantees in writing, etc., you are stuck with the item. Sure, there are some legal recourses, but for the most part you own it. When I bought my Dodge truck two years ago, before I finalized any paperwork I went over it with a fine toothed comb. And I expect the same attention to detail and personalized service from a Dodge dealer as I would from BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, etc. As I see it, I'm putting down a large chunk of change (in my case $20K+). The dealer knows this, and if they want my business should remember that. If they don't, I go somewhere else. In the case of the SC "Essence", yes, they should provide the information up front. They should treat the potential customer well. But no more or less than they do for any of their other instruments, IMHO, if they are to be consistent across the board in terms of sales experience, truth in advertising, service after the sale, etc. The way I see it, if you buy a Fender, and the experience was good, you will be more likely to go back to that dealer and purchase another product or more expensive product. If the experience was bad, well, you'll most likely go elsewhere, regardless of how much you paid in the first place. In this case, the buyer may indeed go elsewhere for their next bass purchase based on all of this, and that is their choice. And I agree with Dave that it's never a good thing for either the business or the customer if the business uses an unethical practice to sell goods. What I was trying to say is that unfortunately this occurs too often, not only with musical instruments, but with lots of other goods and commodities. Eventually, word spreads and that purveyor suddenly finds a drop off in business. Which, of course, for consumers is a "good thing." Many thanks to Dave for clarifying this! :-) Finally, For Rory .. Glad I could create a little excitement for you. Wait a minute, you need no excitement ... you have a Series! And I'm spent ... Alan | ||
| petiteblonde
Junior Username: petiteblonde Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2005 |
Alan, have you spoken to the store yet about feeling misled about the bass? Is there anything at this point that they can do to rectify the situation? It may be fair to allow them to make any amends to you. Even club members are somewhat confused about what determines the actual model, regardless of the serial number letter/s. In any case, they have some "splainin to do". | ||
| dadabass2001
Advanced Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 361 Registered: 6-2002 |
Perry was the purchaser in question, not Alan. If Perry is happy with the deal, then no harm done. my 2¢. Mike | ||
| effclef
Advanced Member Username: effclef Post Number: 323 Registered: 1-2004 |
For what it's worth, Bass Northwest labels several basses here: http://www.bassnw.com/Special%20Order%20Basses/alembic.htm as "Stanley Clarke" models whereas the ones which have Signature electronics are called Stanley Clarke _Signature_ basses... And if Bass Central is the FL dealer in question, their page shows the "Stanley Basses": http://www.basscentral.com/alembicbass/stanley.shtml ...those which aren't Signature electronics are shown as "Custom." I have no idea if that just happened recently or not. I thought the Europa style models in the Stanley shape were lumped in as "Stanleys" before. From the many factory-to-customer posts where people praise Bass Central as being "the place" to have a good custom-order experience, I am surprised if they really had malice aforethought here in Perry's deal. Bottom line, was Perry satisfied and was the price fair for what he got? Only he can decide! EffClef | ||
| haddimudd
Intermediate Member Username: haddimudd Post Number: 115 Registered: 6-2002 |
In respect to the origin of this thread, was the bass advertized as a "Stanley Clarke" bass or a "Stanley Clarke SIGNATURE" bass? Calling it a "Signature" bass would definitely be a false and misleading statement because it would indicate a type of electronics which the bass does not carry. If it was just advertised as a "Stanley Clarke" model, not a "Signature" model, then I would think it is fair to say that in general terms the small body is indeed associated with the image of Stanley Clarke, and thus that's all this naming was intended to refer to. Of course it would be more accurate to call it whatever the serial number categorizes it to but I realized more than once that shop owners are a lot less educated in the multitude of subtleties of the Alembic world than our community of dedicated users. So in this particular case I would not think the seller did anything wrong intentionally, unless of course he used the term "Signature" and even more so if he priced the bass like a signature bass instead of the value of an Essence bass. If you paid the price of an Essence bass and what you got is an Essence bass that looks like the ones Stanley Clarke uses I think you are doing fine, if not then you might want to talk to the seller about it. | ||
| yggdrasil
Junior Username: yggdrasil Post Number: 39 Registered: 5-2002 |
They call them: “Stanley Clarke” Custom The "real" ones they call Stanley Clarke Signature I have one of the "Essence Stanley Customs", but with a very customized neck & pup placement. Here's a pic page: http://www3.sympatico.ca/videoimage/SC.htm Frank Here's a pic:  | ||
| haddimudd
Intermediate Member Username: haddimudd Post Number: 116 Registered: 6-2002 |
Well, from the above picture I would say it is pretty obvious it is not a Stanley Clarke "Signature", not to mention a "Series" bass, by looking at only three instead of at least four knobs. Apart from that it is a true beauty and if the seller's discription was anywhere near the discription in the above link there wouldn't be any questions left unanswered. Exept of course the magical question why the heck these basses carry an "Essence" serial number while there aren't even any "Essence" electronics nor body features left. Funny! Sweet bass, BTW! | ||
| yggdrasil
Junior Username: yggdrasil Post Number: 40 Registered: 5-2002 |
Just for fun, I went to the quote generator and punched in the parameters of my "Stanley Essence": Starting as an Essence, it came out to list $7550. Starting as a SC Sig, it came out to list $7400. I can only guess that the dealer was taking advantage of some time-limited special on Essence + certain options. Otherwise it makes no sense. Frank in Toronto | ||
| alanbass1
Junior Username: alanbass1 Post Number: 33 Registered: 4-2005 |
So, in effect the serial number determines the official model designation; not shape, electronics, fittings, construction or whatever. Alembic must be unique in this respect, although I'm not sure that I feel this is a good policy. All it goes to show is that when buying instruments, either make sure you play them first, or custom order to your exact specification; then you will know exactly what you are buying regardless of what the serial number says. | ||
| haddimudd
Intermediate Member Username: haddimudd Post Number: 118 Registered: 6-2002 |
I would think ideally the serial number (on a non-custom instrument) is meant to reflect the type of electronics and/or the neck construction (through vs. set neck). In my believe the Essence/Europa/Clarke basses above started out as Essence basses and were so heavily customized that down the line nobody realized that no Essence features had been left. This probably shouldn't be the rule and I wouldn't be surprised if Alembic staff would confirm that this is a case that "slipped through" and didn't go conform with regular serial numbering conventions. | ||
| phys49
New Username: phys49 Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2005 |
Since there have not been any posts lately, I would like to "wrap up this thread". I returned the bass to Bass Central. They called it a Stanley Clarke Custom model. It is a very beautiful bass but I needed a smaller nut width to play it. They are shipping it back to Alembic to have the neck shaved from 1.75" to 1.5" since there are others who have small hands like me. My lack of knowledge about Alembic policies and marketing strategies contributed to a less than enjoyable experience. In the end, Bass Central did resolve this in a satisfactory manner. I appreciate the comments, information and education I have recieved here. I am still looking for a short scale Alembic with a 1.5" nut. | ||
| alanbass1
Junior Username: alanbass1 Post Number: 49 Registered: 4-2005 |
It's good to see that Bass Central looked after you. I stand by all I have said in this thread in as much that a model name should at least have characteristics that is commonly associated with it. Otherwise things like this will continue to happen. Enough said. |
