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slawie
Senior Member
Username: slawie

Post Number: 593
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 6:43 pm:   Edit Post

I think that I am done with amp gas for a while.
It took me a number of months to get this rig together. slawie

sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3239
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 10:34 pm:   Edit Post

SWELL ! ___ it looks nice and punchy!!
dadabass2001
Senior Member
Username: dadabass2001

Post Number: 1792
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 - 1:40 pm:   Edit Post

I assume the cabinets are symmetrical, since one of them is rotated 180 degrees. Are those dual 12s in each cab?
Mike
slawie
Senior Member
Username: slawie

Post Number: 594
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 - 3:10 pm:   Edit Post

Thanks Wolf - expect some minor seismic activity over there when I start practicing loud.

Mike, the cabinet is an older one that had the logo placed in that position. Terribly annoying as the logo tabs are inserted into drilled holes then melted from behind. Cannot be moved without looking Blah!
Only way around it is to buy another grill.
The two bottom cabs are 2x12's with one driver being a dual cone with tweeter.
The top cabs are 2x10's with the same tweeter deal.
The 10's are clear, tight and punchy with the 12's adding a bigger fatter bottom end.

"It's a fridge and a bit"

Still playing with it and tweaking the F2B and series I controls.

slawie
tbrannon
Senior Member
Username: tbrannon

Post Number: 1617
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 - 5:54 pm:   Edit Post

Slawie,

Impressive array- especially considering you built that thing while living in AU. I know how expensive gear is in AU/NZ… $$$$
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 1718
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 - 5:56 pm:   Edit Post

OK, I want to know how it sounds all stacked up vertically, twelves on the bottom and tens on the top, all in a row.

0
0
0
0
O
O
O
O
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3240
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 - 6:12 pm:   Edit Post

Edwin ,
A custom little narrow scaffold and #9 tie wire might be needed for that experiment !

(Message edited by sonicus on February 25, 2014)
5a_quilt_top
Advanced Member
Username: 5a_quilt_top

Post Number: 260
Registered: 6-2012
Posted on Wednesday, February 26, 2014 - 7:07 am:   Edit Post

Uh oh...if so, you may be getting dangerously close to going HERE:




Actually my favorite part of slawie's rig is the fact that it's

M - O - D - U - L - A - R
moonliner
Advanced Member
Username: moonliner

Post Number: 217
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 27, 2014 - 1:15 am:   Edit Post

Ahhhh... that looks very pleasing....

I bet it sounds fantastic!
hankster
Advanced Member
Username: hankster

Post Number: 349
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 27, 2014 - 7:48 pm:   Edit Post

I love the TC Electronics cabs. Punchy indeed. I've had nothing but compliments on my sound since I started using my much more meager 2x10 with occasionally a single 12 added. Have fun!

R.
willie
Advanced Member
Username: willie

Post Number: 241
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 9:30 am:   Edit Post

There is nothing like playing through a Big Rig.
But I Love driving them as well.
Long wheelbase means great ride but a slight challenge negotiating turns. But not a problem and worth it for the ride. And it's nice to have a small apartment right behind you all the time.
I did over one million safe miles in 33 states.
Could sustain 120 MPH when conditions allowed it.
On the CB it was referred to as a "Large Car".
But definitely a Big Rig.
WillBig Rig
rjmsteel
Advanced Member
Username: rjmsteel

Post Number: 223
Registered: 7-2008
Posted on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 9:44 am:   Edit Post

Willie, is that the Iowa Hawkeyes football team Semi-Trailer rig?

Looks just like it.

My oldest son is a Hawkeye currently going to UI and your rig looks just like the one we saw on campus at a game next to the stadium, (and in the Main Faculty lot).
I`m in the Steel (Coil) Processing business so I have definitely seen my share of trucks from beat up to full custom. Very Nice BTW!!
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3245
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 10:31 am:   Edit Post

I gained a new understanding and respect for Big Rig truckers when I drove a Bob Tail from Tampa ,FL to Oakland , Ca. and many parts in between . The scale and accommodations available at some of the truck stops that I stopped of at and dined were really impressive. I remember one of the truck stops in a man made oasis in the middle of the Arizona desert surrounded by Saguaro Cacti. Driving up I saw a long line of perfectly parked Big Rigs , at least 50 or so !! Walking in the door I was greeted by a friendly hostess who seated me at a table but the food was buffet style serve your self . There was a huge live music room where the band was just setting up , the bass player had a BIG RIG stack of Mesa "Road Ready " bass cabinets and an All Tube MESA 400+ Amp !!!! At the opposite end of the establishment there was a little movie theater ! This was a trip that I will never forget . Every one was really friendly there ____.
willie
Advanced Member
Username: willie

Post Number: 242
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 10:57 am:   Edit Post

I don't believe so. This is not my truck. But as close of a picture to mine I have that I can upload. The trailers I pulled were actually longer. When I drove mine, I didn't have a digital cameras. All were taken on a 35MM camera. I have a lot of pictures from all over the country I took through the windshield while driving as well as the trucks I drove. This is a Peterbilt 379 just like mine but mine was blue. I also drove a very large red Freightliner. And a Maroon and Silver Western Star. Also had a Maroon Peterbilt 359 but it wasn't as long. The blue 379 was my favorite. The stretched wheelbase is the only way to go. At 320", it is longer than the the wheelbase of a Top Fuel Dragster. Great ride. I was also a driving instructor and road tester for new drivers for my company. I didn't like having to let them drive my truck while I taught and tested them. The extra length of the tractor drastically changes how you must set up for turns, especially in towns or cities. And one wrong downshift climbing a mountain under full power could drop the extra long multiple piece drive shaft right out of the truck. But if you do it right without the clutch, you don't even feel it, just hear the engine RPM change. The interiors of the sleepers are great. Nicer than home. The cab interior is like an airplane. Cool at night with all the gauges and radios lit up. And it's nice going down the road lit up like a Christmas tree. Even at 4 MPG I could go over 1000 miles without refueling. But it cost a lot to fill it up when you did stop. At 120 MPH it sounds and feels like flying a large jet on the ground. My 359 was clocked at 135 MPH coming off Donner's Pass. The State Police frown on those speeds though. And if you blow a steering tire at that speed, the result could look like a plane crash. But I never got a ticket for any kind of moving violation,over weight violation or log book violation. But I probably would have if they ever caught me. But next to playing bass, which I do through a very Big Rig, and a few other things I can't mention here, operating a machine like this was the most fun and rewarding thing I ever did. Not all truck drivers ever get to drive a truck anywhere near as nice as this. It is an elite group of people I was very proud to be part of. A lot of thumbs up and compliments from other people on the road and places I stopped.
Will
rjmsteel
Advanced Member
Username: rjmsteel

Post Number: 224
Registered: 7-2008
Posted on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 11:25 am:   Edit Post

Most of the Steel Haulers in the Midwest cannot afford (length wise) the really long tractors and/or trailer combinations. Doubles are the trailer system of choice until you get into Illinois where double pulls loaded with Coils are not allowed. Michigan and coming out of Canada (Steel) Mills are where the doubles with three axles (or more) each are on the roads. However with this years insane winter conditions I think the Indiana Toll Road has had more Doubles and Steel Hauler restrictions than OK to travel days... not to mention fuel gel problems... what a mess!! Try getting a load of lumber out of Missouri.. good luck!
coop
Junior
Username: coop

Post Number: 12
Registered: 1-2014
Posted on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 12:58 pm:   Edit Post

Slawie, a cool rig, indeed! I have a TC RH750 and have wondered how the TC cabs sound. I normally play 2 Eden 112s, but love the idea of a small 212. What are the pros and cons of TC's cab design, sound, and construction?
jazzyvee
Senior Member
Username: jazzyvee

Post Number: 3884
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 7:23 pm:   Edit Post

I tried a couple of those 2x10 cabs today at soundcheck. The support band bassist had them with a matching tc electronics amp.
I liked the sound but for me it didn't push out and enough bottom end to feel the bass as well as hear it. Thats a pretty important requirement for me. I guess having a setup with 4 cabs should rectify that though. :-)
Jazzyvee
Btw the bassist loved my bocate europa.

(Message edited by Jazzyvee on February 28, 2014)
slawie
Senior Member
Username: slawie

Post Number: 595
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 8:49 pm:   Edit Post

Bradley, I also have an RH750. I have played that head with a single 210, 210+210,a single 212, 212+212, 210+212+212, 210+210+212. The min load is 3 cabinets and it's any 3 in combination. 3 cabs is overkill I found for most venues but my setup of choice for say a 500 head venue is plain old 210+212 and DI to the desk post instead of pre. I place the shallower 210 at the back of the bottom 212 so when standing at around 10 feet away sound from both cabs reaches my ear at the same time and loudness. I don't really understand the physics or even if what I am hearing is indeed what I'm saying but this is what I perceive.
With the RH750 I have 3 fairly broad ranges of presets. One is heavily bottom oriented and most of the tops are dialled out. Number two is selected frequencies across the the range all boosted with the tops also dialled out the result is heavy on the mids. Preset 3 opens all available frequencies and boosts the tops it's like Jaco's sound on steroids. Moving my right hand closer to the bridge brings in some nice piano like tones together with the range of controllable output from my series bass it's a huge and broad sound spectrum. I also use flats and have the tweeter control on the cabs at around 60-70%.
There is much to adjust on the TC amps and took me a good number of weeks to work out how the amp can best reproduce the signal generated by my bass.
TC amps and cabs are designed around each other and are best suited to work together in any combination.
The finish on the older cabs can be a bit harsh and scratchy and if your not careful can take off a couple of skin layers from knuckles. The newer cabs are shiny and not as rough and texturally more user friendly.
I have had no trouble getting a huge full bottom end and can click in a dub sound at the click of a footswitch.
I did have an annoying rattle occur but that just required a 1/4 turn of the screws for the rear port tube.
Stacking them 3 high is great for visual and audio linear array effect but not recommended as you end up with a small footprint with a high centre of gravity. OK if you are on concrete floor but on a stage it's only safe on the sturdiest of stages.
slawie
811952
Senior Member
Username: 811952

Post Number: 2357
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 7:30 am:   Edit Post

I love those TC cabinets!
alembic76407
Senior Member
Username: alembic76407

Post Number: 747
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Friday, March 07, 2014 - 4:12 pm:   Edit Post

this is a big amp

sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3256
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Friday, March 07, 2014 - 5:02 pm:   Edit Post

The above is a Fender PS 400 . Berry Oakley used one in The Allman Brothers Band .

http://alembic.com/club/messages/395/178471.html?1382208142

http://timeelect.com/400-faq.htm
mtjam
Intermediate Member
Username: mtjam

Post Number: 147
Registered: 11-2011
Posted on Friday, March 07, 2014 - 5:09 pm:   Edit Post

Rigs don't get much bigger than the PS 400!
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3257
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Friday, March 07, 2014 - 5:20 pm:   Edit Post

The PS 400, physically had a big "foot print" ,however by todays standards that is not really that powerful . (Check out the specs in the lower link)
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 1720
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Friday, March 07, 2014 - 6:54 pm:   Edit Post

435 clean tube watts is pretty powerful. Given the way tubes operate differently from solid state at the point of saturation (in my experience you need a lot more headroom in a solid state amp to keep from objectionable sounds), it should be plenty. Most of us probably operate under 100 watts continuous power and go over that for the peaks. A few weeks ago I did an experiment during soundcheck, going back and forth between my Showman and a solid state amp rated at a little over 600 watts. The Showman held its own and had better tone. 435 clean tube watts would be way more than enough than I would ever need. Unless I was using a fairly inefficient speaker.
hankster
Advanced Member
Username: hankster

Post Number: 352
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Friday, March 07, 2014 - 7:09 pm:   Edit Post

Great silver shades of 1970, Batman! I have never seen one of those!
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 1721
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Friday, March 07, 2014 - 7:27 pm:   Edit Post

Seeing one is one thing. Playing through it is another altogether! I've only played through one a couple of times and it only had two of the three outputs hooked up. I've wanted one ever since, but they are not that common.
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3258
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Friday, March 07, 2014 - 7:59 pm:   Edit Post

Edwin, Sure 435 tube watts is a good jolt . ____But look at the whole picture on the PS 400 , the 435 watts is distributed over 3 taps @ 145 watts each. Check out the speakers ; JBL D130's . I have had a few of those , and they always seem not to hold out well for me with the transients created from a Bass Guitar( resulting in distortion ) , at least for me. I think they sound better else where. ___ For old school 15's I still prefer Gauss 4580's .If I remember correctly the Gauss 4580's were used in the final incarnation in the Wall of sound in Mr. Lesh's Wall of Sound stack . I recently mounted a Gauss 4580 in an early Mesa Road Ready Cabinet that was originally based on the EV TL-606 design (ported rather then infinite baffle design as in the wall of sound). The Thiele -Small parameters don't match up exactly but the Gauss 4580 sounds nice in that box in my opinion . JBl D130's are great however for a pedal steel guitar. I still have a JBL D130 that I don't use much anymore. It ended up living in an old early Bagend cabinet, where it remains presently.
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3259
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Friday, March 07, 2014 - 9:03 pm:   Edit Post

As far as an all tube Bass rig goes , I think that the McIntosh MC 3500 would be a blast ! Perhaps two with an Alembic F-2B preamp to play in Stereo !

mc3500



350W RMS continuous. 500W RMS Maximum.

Frequency Response: 20-20kHz (+0 -0.5dB).

Total Harmonic Distortion: 0.15%.
Intermodulation Distortion: Unmeasureable - ie behold measuring instrument threshold

Hum and Noise Levels: -95dB.

Output - Rated Load Impedances: 1, 4, 8, 16, 50 and 64 ohms.
Note: Rated Power Output for 1 ohm load is 300W and 4 Ohm load is 320W
Output Load Circuits: Can be isolated from ground - ie "balanced output".

Internal impedance: less than 5% of Rated Load Impedance.
Input impedance: 200k.
Input sensitivity 1.1V RMS


(Message edited by sonicus on March 07, 2014)
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 1722
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Friday, March 07, 2014 - 9:43 pm:   Edit Post

Yeah, I wasn't going to bring the MC3500 up. It's a holy grail, but I can't afford it or the chiropractor. :-)

I wouldn't bother trying to play bass through a K130, regardless of what Rich at Time Electronics might say. A K140, in my experience, is a completely different game. I did the JBL to Gauss transition and while the Gauss drivers do handle more power, it felt to me that at the end of the day, all they did was handle more power. It took more power to get them to the same level that the K140s went to, so the net gain for me was a heavier speaker and a heavier amplifier for about the same results. Of course, all this depends on the right cabinets, etc.

The beauty is that we don't really have to choose. I like having a vintage Fender/JBL rig and also a modern Alembic/QSC/fEARFul rig.
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3260
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Friday, March 07, 2014 - 10:31 pm:   Edit Post

Edwin,
If you remember a while back I did a shoot out between a JBL K140 and a Gauss 4580, both were in identical Alembic A15 infinite baffle enclosures. All parameters were measured. The Gauss did in fact take more power to reach the same SPL , in my opinion it did hold up a tad better in the lower frequencies . ( that thread is here somewhere on this site) I always wanted to experiment with a Gauss 4580 in a ported cabinet and had not done so until recently. The early Mesa Road Ready EV TL-606 type box was a total game changer for the Gauss speaker. It came alive at lower power levels . I still prefer the JBL K140's in my old Alembic A15 infinite baffle& the others as such that I have.

For a big rig;___ What I really seem to like now are my EV 10's in Mesa Road Ready cabinets . I have one 4X10 box and two 2x10 box's . I can throw in the Gauss 4580 perhaps ___I like to power those with a Crest VS 900 and like all Alembic signal processing. For a small rig ; EV 10's and one of my many GK amps.

Here is the Alembic Signal process rack complete with the Alembic IN-2 that I rebuilt that had been in storage somewhere for decades .



IN-2
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 1723
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Friday, March 07, 2014 - 10:55 pm:   Edit Post

What's clear is that one of these days I have to do a road trip out there so we can hang and make some noise!
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3261
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 1:10 am:   Edit Post

Edwin ,
I think that would be cool. A gathering ___.
keith_h
Senior Member
Username: keith_h

Post Number: 1975
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 5:51 am:   Edit Post

The only speakers and cabinets I still own from my 70's/80's rig are my single speaker K140's. JBL hit a sweet spot when they developed the K140. I never tried the D130 for bass but used them in the lower mid cabinets of my PA at that time. Not sure they would have held up as well as the K140's in a bass rig.

Keith
hankster
Advanced Member
Username: hankster

Post Number: 353
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 2:17 pm:   Edit Post

Yep, K140 is a good bet. I used it for years with my Bandmaster. Always sounded good.
willie
Advanced Member
Username: willie

Post Number: 243
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 1:02 pm:   Edit Post

Here is my little rig
hydrargyrum
Senior Member
Username: hydrargyrum

Post Number: 1212
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 9:15 pm:   Edit Post

So I'm just a guitar player, but 22 watts is loud enough for a drummer, and anything louder can be mic'd. How the hell do you guys play at 435 watts and not clear a stadium? (disclaimer: this is most likely a dumb question.)

(Message edited by hydrargyrum on March 18, 2014)
jazzyvee
Senior Member
Username: jazzyvee

Post Number: 3917
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 12:09 am:   Edit Post

The measure of a man is what he does with power.
Plato

Jazzyvee
hydrargyrum
Senior Member
Username: hydrargyrum

Post Number: 1213
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 4:13 am:   Edit Post

Excellent reply.
willie
Advanced Member
Username: willie

Post Number: 244
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 6:37 am:   Edit Post

22 Watts is enough. Not the first time I heard that from a guitar player. They think it's all about volume. And I've heard guitar players play through a 50 watt amp with one 12" speaker that made your ears bleed. Not necessarily the best tone though. I have a combo amp that is 450 watts. I don't use it. Doesn't have the tone.
My main rack has 12000 watts. It's not about volume, it's about tone. Something guitar players don't think is important when it comes to how the bass sounds. I happen to disagree with that. This is the best bass rig I ever heard and I've heard a lot of them. It's a shame guitar players complain about it without ever hearing it. Wills Main Rack
hydrargyrum
Senior Member
Username: hydrargyrum

Post Number: 1215
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 8:05 am:   Edit Post

Sorry but I hate huge wattage amps, and I think your argument that we don't care about bass tone is insulting and outright wrong.

To get back closer to the topic, how does more wattage improve tone? Don't some of the guys around here get a decent tone from small amps like the Bass Briefcase?
5a_quilt_top
Advanced Member
Username: 5a_quilt_top

Post Number: 277
Registered: 6-2012
Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 8:21 am:   Edit Post

Simplistic view:

Power = headroom.

For bass headroom = tone.

For clean guitar headroom = tone.

For distorted guitar, either A or B:

A. lack of headroom = tone (overdriving a low-watt power amp)

B. headroom = tone (overdriving a preamp powered by high watt power amp).

IMO, where most guitarists miss the point is when they overdrive both their pre and power amps and the result is a glorious "bedroom tone" that magically vanishes when mixed with a band. They then compensate by increasing their volume until it's "game on" with everyone else upping the ante until it's a deafening roar.

I'm not picking on anyone - I'm both a bassist and a guitarist so I can empathize with the tonal challenges faced by players of each instrument.
hydrargyrum
Senior Member
Username: hydrargyrum

Post Number: 1217
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 8:29 am:   Edit Post

I definitely can relate to the bedroom vs. band setting. There are some pedals I won't use by myself, but which can cut through a mix and sound good in the other setting. I've got a silverface non-master volume pro-reverb that's 40 watts and I don't think I've ever had it past three on the volume knob. I can hear the speakers distort before I can hear the power amp begin to stretch out.

(Message edited by hydrargyrum on March 19, 2014)
jzstephan
Advanced Member
Username: jzstephan

Post Number: 239
Registered: 1-2012
Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 10:42 am:   Edit Post

Electric guitar and bass are two completely different instruments.; why compare their power requirements? Distorted bass can be an interesting effect, but usually not desirable. Distorted guitar is often employed with artistic results. Lots of instruments are capable of being uncomfortably loud; there is a knob on amplifiers that fixes this problem.
hydrargyrum
Senior Member
Username: hydrargyrum

Post Number: 1220
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 11:38 am:   Edit Post

I guess my distaste for huge 100+ watt amps has tainted my view, and it always surprises me when I see how high the wattage of some bass amps can be. When I first started playing I bought into the bigger amp means better tone myth, and spent a lot of time disappointed that I couldn't the sounds I wanted at reasonable volumes. I don't see how comparing them and becoming aware of the reasons why their power requirements are different is such a bad thing.
keith_h
Senior Member
Username: keith_h

Post Number: 1977
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 12:35 pm:   Edit Post

A lot has to do with what type of music you are playing, the size of the spaces you play in and volume of other band members. A 100W bass amp is not going to keep up with most pop or rock oriented groups even if the guitarist is using a small combo. On the other hand for a jazz trio it can work well.

Some of the amp size just boils down to basic physics and human physiology. Human hearing is generally listed as between 20 Hz and 20K Hz. The practical low end really falls between 40HZ and 65 HZ. Below that cutoff the roll off of the ear is fairly steep. It takes a lot of power to allow these lower frequencies to be heard. If I need 400W to have my lower notes be heard at a balanced level with the remainder of the band a 400W amp or 1000W amp would handle that. The difference is the 400W amp will be running at it's upper limit and most likely distorting. You also run the risk of heat damage. The 1000W amp on the other hand is running well below it's maximums and is unlikely to be distorting or over heating. Also if I need more volume because the drummer starts hitting harder I can utilize the reserve power of the 1000W amp.

Just because an amp is large doesn't mean it can't function well at low levels. I regularly use my rack with a 2X10 cabinet for small gigs. I use a QSC PLX 3002 which is a big amp by most standards. I think the catch to getting better tone at low volumes is the speakers as opposed to the amp. A folded horn is not going to sound good below a certain threshold. The same goes for sub's like the ELF's I use on larger gigs. However my 2X10 gets great tone at these lower levels running full range. I've also had good results with a single full range 15" on quieter gigs. I guess this is why I now have a room dedicated to music as I need a place to keep all of these speakers.

For tube amps typically used by guitarists things are not quite the same. For tubes to reach the point of compression they have to reach certain voltages which correlates to a certain volume. This means a smaller amp will usually reach this point at a lower volume than a larger amp. Guitar also has an advantage of being in a frequency range that the ear is more sensitive to so requires less volume to be heard. All of this is actually good as it helps keep the overall band volume lower. Of course the drummer can screw things up but we have little control over that.

Keith
5a_quilt_top
Advanced Member
Username: 5a_quilt_top

Post Number: 278
Registered: 6-2012
Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 2:27 pm:   Edit Post

Well said, Keith.

To paraphrase: use the correct tool for the task.

Back to the first post in the thread - what I like about slawie's rig is modularity. It's a big rig that can be made smaller if the situation requires it.
slawie
Senior Member
Username: slawie

Post Number: 599
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 3:30 pm:   Edit Post

Willie,
Did you mistype "12000 watts"
I certainly hope so because that's more
headroom than Pharrell Williams' hat!
slawie
willie
Advanced Member
Username: willie

Post Number: 245
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 8:48 pm:   Edit Post

No I didn't type it wrong. My main rack has 12000 watts. I have over 16000 watts if I add the other racks. 15000 is from 4 Crown power amps. The main rack is my favorite and can handle gig. The system is modular and can be configured multiple ways. I have 7 different per amps but prefer an Alembic F-1X. It's a shame people assume the high wattage I strictly for volume. The high power and multiple sized drivers is all about tone. And yes it can get loud. But whatever volume its played at it sounds great. I know a lot of people like their low powered rigs and that's fine with me. But I'll take my system. Has to be heard to be appreciated. And I didn't mean to start an argument. The thread said big rig. Mine is big so I posted a some pictures. I never implied everyone had to like it or would have to play through it. Although if they got to I don't think they wouldn't like the way it sounds. It reproduces the full range of the human ear. My Alembic basses sound incredible through it. And I didn't just throw stuff together. I study sound reproduction and bass amplification. I've been developing this system for 35 years. I was determined to have a bass rig worthy of playing Alembic basses through. And I succeeded. AndII'll never damage a driver by clipping an amplifier. It's a shame though. I thought because of the people on this site that someone might actually appreciate it. I know I like to play through it and that's what matters to me. If you play a 35 inch scale alembic bass through this rig and a 2-10 combo amp the difference is significant. To each his own.
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3283
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 9:34 pm:   Edit Post

Hello Willie , ___Nice Rig . It was hard to see the model number of the Crown Amps , but they look like Crown Macro Tech 9000i . Is that correct ? Here are the Specs ;


Buy it here , I like these guys ___http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/578162-REG/Crown_Audio_MA9000I_MA_9000i_Professional_Stereo_Power.html

(Message edited by sonicus on March 19, 2014)
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3284
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 9:42 pm:   Edit Post

http://www.crownaudio.com/media/pdf/amps/140863.pdf

Crown Macro Tech 9000i
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 1725
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 10:42 pm:   Edit Post

Willie, you'll get no complaint from me. My only question is where do you gig so I can hear this?

I agree that headroom improves tone. Even with tubes. I don't need the volume of a rig that big (nor can I afford the roadies), but I like playing without clipping, so I try to make sure my power amp has sufficient capabilities in that regard. For fun, I just picked up a Peavey IPR 3000. I know, I was skeptical, too, but for $275 and at under 8 lbs, I had to give it a shot. Bridged mono into my fEARful 15.6.1, it sounds great and doesn't get anywhere near clipping (F2B front end). The heaviest thing in my rack is now the DS-5R.
slawie
Senior Member
Username: slawie

Post Number: 600
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2014 - 12:49 am:   Edit Post

Willie,
Apologies if my post was hurtful or negative towards you in any way. My intention was not to be snippity or disrespectful.
It was purely a vehicle for a one liner.

Back to your rig. I would love to hear it! I do not think I could even imagine the fullness of the sound reproduction of your rig. It must be listened to in a live situation to be appreciated. What size venues do you play? I believe that individual rooms would play havoc on your sound with reflections and phase cancellations etc.
Can you write something more about it because quite frankly I am pretty much inspired.

slawie
terryc
Senior Member
Username: terryc

Post Number: 2182
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2014 - 7:05 am:   Edit Post

So are all you guys playing massive clubs, stadiums and trying to be heard on the moon??
I gave all that big stuff up ages ago and although my 'big rig' is an Ashdown EVO 300 combo with a 15" extension cab, I hardly use it and I am considering selling it for some Mark Bass gear as I only play in small bars. Currently for these types of gig I have a Roland Bass Cube with an extension speaker..a micro rig!
You all must have roadies, fork lift trucks or steel spines to lug all that around.
willie
Advanced Member
Username: willie

Post Number: 246
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2014 - 7:47 am:   Edit Post

The amps are Crown Macro Tech 9000i Touring sound amps. They are made to run line array elements in large concert sound systems and are fully Ethernet capable but I use them for their brute force and high power output. I prefer an F-1X pre-amp. I send the bi-amp outputs into the inputs of an SF-2 running in stereo. The outputs of the SF-2 each go to a separate DBX 160A Compressor. The outputs of the compressors go to each Crown Amp. This way I have full tone control and compression of my lows and highs independently. The amp receiving the lows drives 1X15 cabinets I designed and built with my brother, (who is a master carpenter), that are loaded with Beyma 15G40 15" woofers. The amp receiving the highs drives two Eden 4X10XLT cabinets. I re-configured these cabinets to allow them to perform their job in the system better. I replaced the Eminence 10" woofers with Beyma 10MI100 mid bass drivers. These reproduce mids better than the woofers did and will never have to reproduce the lower frequencies that are handled by the 1X15's.
I also replaced the Foster horns that only went to 14 kh with Beyma CP22 super tweeters that go all the way to 20kh. I made an additional 3 way cabinet for practice that has a separate shelf vnted section in the bottom currently loaded with a JBL E145 which will be replaced with a Beyma 15G40 for increased power handling and a ported section in the top with two Beyma 10MI100 mid bass drivers and a Beyma CP22 super tweeter.
I power this with an Eden WT 800 amp for practice.
But I can easily add it to the full rig if needed. The Crowns have enough power for all the cabinets but I also have two Crown Power Base Three amps I could use in bridged mono to run the other cabinet bi-amped. And I still have 10 " speakers to build cabinets for. The Eden 4X10 cabinets be returned to their stock setup and I will design and build my own cabinets for the Beyma Drivers.
But the main system truly has to be heard to be appreciated. It reproduces the tone of an Alembic bass so clearly at any volume. I've never heard anything like it. So clear and accurate and I have the ability to turn it up to meet the volume of the rest of the band with no worries of pushing anything too hard. The sound is so big and clear. It has that concert sound I've tried to get since I was 16.
Thanks everyone for asking about it. I'm very proud of it. Unfortunately I have been recovering from an injury and am not playing in a band right now. I'm looking for one. I just need to find one that isn't intimidated by what I play through. It is tough to explain audio physics to people who don't understand. They think I just want to blow the doors off the place. I just love the sound of it. Quite a feeling to stand in front of it and play through it.
Will
hydrargyrum
Senior Member
Username: hydrargyrum

Post Number: 1221
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2014 - 9:08 am:   Edit Post

Willie, your amp looks super cool. My apologies for my ignorance on the topic. I certainly meant no disrespect, I'm just not a bass player and up until now hadn't heard any really good explanations for the differences. Keith's explanation was great and I really appreciate it.
willie
Advanced Member
Username: willie

Post Number: 247
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2014 - 1:20 pm:   Edit Post

No Problem. Glad you like it.
And don't feel ignorant or bad.
Most people don't get into amplification engineering to understand it. When I talk to people about they look at me like I'm from outer space.
lembic76450
Advanced Member
Username: lembic76450

Post Number: 374
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2014 - 2:19 pm:   Edit Post

Once upon a time, when I was much younger, I did the SVT with 16 10's. That gave way to a rack system with 4 15's. Now, Genz Benz Shuttle 9.0 with an Acme Flatwound, just a couple of ounces under 30 pounds. Old knees, Old back...
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3287
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2014 - 2:32 pm:   Edit Post

Willie , at how many ohms are you loading the output stages of your Crown 9000i amplifiers ?

Wolf
charles_holmes
Advanced Member
Username: charles_holmes

Post Number: 314
Registered: 3-2009
Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2014 - 5:27 pm:   Edit Post

Willie,
I gotta stop over some time with my distillate!
I'm digging' your rack man!!!About your injury, did it occur during your fishing trip? Because the fish you catch are incredibly huge! Take care and heal quickly!
Chalie Holmes your Philly connection!
willie
Advanced Member
Username: willie

Post Number: 248
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, March 21, 2014 - 9:32 am:   Edit Post

Wolf
The Crown Macro Tech 9000I's are each run in bridged mono. They are each driving two 8 ohm cabinets for a total load impedance of 4 ohms on each amp.
So the amps, in order to protect themselves from delivering too much current to the load use internal limiters that monitor the load the amp sees and adjusts the output accordingly for it. They come with a CD you can download into your computer and run and monitor them from a PC or laptop via an Ethernet cable and adjust and monitor a lot of parameters in the amps. They are actually only putting out 5000 watts each instead of the 6000 they could put out if run in stereo with 4 ohm loads on each channel. So the actual output of the main rack running the 4 cabinets is 10000 watts. I can use different speaker cabinet configurations to get more out of them. But I get a great sound with the rack and 4 cabinets and only have to move 5 pieces of equipment. I have a van specifically for moving my rig. And it is a lot of weight to move. 260 lbs. just in magnets.
And I have had some serious back injuries so I have to hire someone to help me move it. I don't have a steel back but do have enough Titanium in it to build a small airplane.
Charles. Good to hear from you. Thanks for the compliment and concern over the injury. It is not from fishing, although throwing those giant lures 200 feet about 800 times a day doesn't help. Or fighting and reeling in Muskie's over 50lbs. It is just a complication from the neck injury that forced me to give up driving tractor trailers. It is affecting my left shoulder. Hoping it gets better soon. Had to postpone a new custom build due to it until I get better. But I do intend to be up your way fishing soon. I'll just throw some lighter lures and won't try to do the long bomb casts too much.
Would be great to have you stop by. I would like to hear you play your Distillate through this rig and see what you think about it.
Will
terryc
Senior Member
Username: terryc

Post Number: 2183
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, March 24, 2014 - 3:58 am:   Edit Post

So Willie what venue has enough current useage to power your rig. The rul of thumb(well here inj the UK) is that for every 1kW it draws 4 amps of current.
SO your rig is drawing 12kW x 4 = 48kA..unless it's different in the USA.
Must have bus bars as fuses in your house LOL
willie
Advanced Member
Username: willie

Post Number: 249
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, March 24, 2014 - 7:13 am:   Edit Post

Terryc
Power availability is usually not a problem except at private parties occasionally. Each power amp draws 20 amps of current at full rated power. But one reason for using such powerful amplifiers is that there is enough headroom that they are never pushed that hard. My power conditioner has a digital volt meter for monitoring line voltage to the system and a digital amp meter for monitoring current draw of the system. At idle it draws 4.8 amps. But if the amplifiers don't receive any input signal for a specified amount of time they go into a sleep mode where they are ready to deliver full power as soon as an input signal is received. But it is amazing that when in sleep mode the system draws 3 less amps of current. So far I have never had to push the system to draw more than 20 amps of current. FOH sound people don't want this thing turned up too load. And even when my system is providing all the bass sound for the room when I'm not going through a PA, it is still not required to drive it so hard that the power amps draw too much current. I did kill all the power at a hall one time at a Beef and Beer Benefit. I wasn't going through the PA. Once power was restored, we played with a limited light show to reduce power consumption.
But these amps are class I amps and are amazingly efficient with regard to power usage. They actually take the 60HZ. line voltage coming in and increase the frequency of it. This makes the power transformers in the amps operate more much more efficiently. I was and am very skeptical of class D amps being able to provide the steady high transient power needed for a live bass guitar. I also stay away from Neo magnet drivers. I feel heavier ferrite magnet drivers have more high powered punch. My other Crown amps are class B amps. They weigh a ton and draw a lot of current but are bullet proof and the punch of the sound is incredible even when playing steady heavy slap style such as Mark King's style which I do a lot. But these Macro Tech's have not let me down yet. But I will get a chance to push them hard at a private event at the end of April I'm looking forward to that. It will also be the first gig for my King Deluxe Bass with Blue front laser LED's. Can't wait to see the looks on peoples faces when I crank that bass up through this system and hit those lights on. Should be cool.
Will
terryc
Senior Member
Username: terryc

Post Number: 2185
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, March 24, 2014 - 8:44 am:   Edit Post

Willie..thanks for the explanation..aah Mark King..my hero too..I can play most of his stuff but alas I cannot sing at the same time.
I have the MK Signature Standard and had Martin Sims put LED's on the front face some years ago
bigredbass
Senior Member
Username: bigredbass

Post Number: 2131
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Monday, March 24, 2014 - 11:12 am:   Edit Post

I utterly agree with Willie. IF you are willing to do the homework (as Willie obviously has, Beyma drivers are totally UNcommon in MI applications), you quickly understand that a bass rig built with a good preamp front end and commercial power for the business end is an entirely different proposition for bass guitar. Virtually all instrument amps operate with levels of distortion (even in 'clean' regimes) that would be laughable in even the cheapest, bingo-calling PA components, much less the serious gear Willie is running: It's cleaner from top to bottom, save for whatever the preamp designer left in by taste. Instrument amps often leave in 5-10% distortion which our eras supposedly interpret as 'warmth' . . ?

Obviously it's a bit less portable ! But it's the old idea of a big amp turned to '2'. . . . I dig the hell out of it, and can only imagine what it's capable of. Everyone has their own needs and budget and the constraints of their situation, but for somebody like me who never had the benefit of ever playing with proper FOH and a good system and engineer, this is the ultimate insurance policy that I'd never be pushed into crappy tone trying to keep up with that guy with the Marshall half-stack that's out to ruin my life.

I'm very impressed, both with the rig and the homework done to fully understand what's involved and to operate it properly. You know, you just can't expect a guy who sat behind a 450hp Cat or Cummins to drive a Prius !

J o e y
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 11308
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Monday, March 24, 2014 - 3:20 pm:   Edit Post

I used to have a 400hp Cummins. I would be happy to drive a Prius.
keith_h
Senior Member
Username: keith_h

Post Number: 1981
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Monday, March 24, 2014 - 3:34 pm:   Edit Post

Dave, I'm not sure a Prius would make it up that driveway of yours. :-)

Keith
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 11309
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Monday, March 24, 2014 - 3:50 pm:   Edit Post

Good point Keith!
charles_holmes
Advanced Member
Username: charles_holmes

Post Number: 315
Registered: 3-2009
Posted on Monday, March 24, 2014 - 4:49 pm:   Edit Post

We all need to have a "Go visit Willie" day!!!!!
I'll bring ear plugs for everybody, cause I'm gonna turn dat mother Way..Way...UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mu-ha!!ha!!HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3298
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Monday, March 24, 2014 - 4:58 pm:   Edit Post

I would make sure that the building is well bolted to the foundation and shear walled throughout the structure ,
jzstephan
Advanced Member
Username: jzstephan

Post Number: 242
Registered: 1-2012
Posted on Monday, March 24, 2014 - 8:59 pm:   Edit Post

http://youtu.be/4xgx4k83zzc
terryc
Senior Member
Username: terryc

Post Number: 2186
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2014 - 2:36 am:   Edit Post

'Back To The Future' Part 1 comes to mind with Willie's rig!
Yep we should all make the road trip(USA people) or fly over the pond(UK and rest of us) to hear this set up in action!
I shall bring an audiometer and test everyone's hearing after the event to see if we have all got temporary threshold shift!
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3303
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2014 - 2:57 am:   Edit Post

Terry,
I remember the famous " Flux Capacitors" from Back To The Future' Part 1

And ;TTS , you bring me back to my teachers warning when I reported my weekend activities of concert going to the class --___Temporary Threshold Shift (TTS): During short exposure to noise, most people experience a rise in the auditory threshold which normally disappears in 24 hours, but may last as long as a week.
terryc
Senior Member
Username: terryc

Post Number: 2188
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2014 - 3:11 am:   Edit Post

Sonicus..yep I do remember the flux capacitor..I am sure I had one but threw it away as I couldn't afford the DeLorian to go with it LOL.
1974 Deep Purple at Newcastle City Hall UK, about 10 feet away from PA...I couldn't hear for a week!
Totally not allowed now!
You got insomnia or a early riser??
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3304
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2014 - 3:28 am:   Edit Post

"You got insomnia or a early riser??" LOL -- In the past I have had jobs where I needed start early, that is currently not the case however I sometimes wake up anyway for about an hour or so and then go back to sleep ____ it is quite handy for chat in "real time" with folks in Europe as I am doing right now ! ( that seems to be my rationalization )
5a_quilt_top
Advanced Member
Username: 5a_quilt_top

Post Number: 281
Registered: 6-2012
Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2014 - 8:21 am:   Edit Post

"I wan ev'rythin' lowder than ev'rythin' else..."

"I pointed it at th' singa, consequently his hearing isn't too good. Mine, on the other hand, is perrrfect."

Abuse of a big rig - ?

Possibly...
willie
Advanced Member
Username: willie

Post Number: 250
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2014 - 12:33 pm:   Edit Post

I have to wear a fall protection lanyard attaching me to the rig so I don't get blown off the stage standing in front of it.
Thanks Joey. I had a 600 HP Caterpillar. 15 Speed Road Ranger Trans. But it was more powerful than todays 600 HP engines because mine was before the low sulfur diesel fuel and emission standards for class 8 truck engines.
And I actually do understand how a lot of how this rig works. I have a degree in electronics. I got it because I wanted to run concert sound systems ever since going to my fist concert. I am studying and will soon be taking the certification test to be a Certified Technology Specialist in Audio/Video. I still have JBL E140 and E145 drivers but the 15" Beyma's handle more power and sound great. And the Beyma 10" mid bass drivers sound much clearer than the 10" Eminence woofers that came in the Eden cabinets. And the Bemya super tweeters make the highs more natural and very clear. My preference for PA speakers are JBL Vertec 4889 and 4880 driven by Crown Amps Though.
If we had a day for people to play through this rig we would have to rent a place. It can't be turned up where I live. I knock things off shelves and walls of my neighbors houses. But I don't think the sidewalk cracks or water main breaks are really my fault but who knows. My 35" scale custom Alembic with the Ebony laminate in the neck can seriously shake the ground.
The back to the Future reference is hilarious.
Never drove a Prius but its fun to play Primus stuff through this rig.
I was actually released from a band for showing up with this rig. I wasn't going through the PA. And I had family there and they said my volume was perfect. And I didn't make any mistakes during the show. I was simply told my system was intimidating even though they said it was the best bass sound they ever heard. And I had hired someone to help me move it so no one in the band had to help move anything. I used my 4 string Europa that night. Sounded good to me. Oh well.
bigredbass
Senior Member
Username: bigredbass

Post Number: 2132
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2014 - 4:53 pm:   Edit Post

OK, Willie, let me pick your brain.

Having done all this homework, and while I certainly acknowledge the big difference in serious sound reinforcement / studio gear and instrument amp / cabinets, are there any 'off the shelf' amps or cabinets out there that might bridge the gap at all?

It's not how loud that rig gets; after all, the increase in volume is logrhtihmic (sp!!), not geometric. It's that the headroom ceiling is way past the typical working SPL's. Unbreakable headroom, or at least it is with the knowledge Willie has in assembling and running this system, it essentially is a dedicated bass PA.

Aggravating, yes. I often would have kept gigs IF I looked as if I'd slept off the hangover in a ditch, went out in the alley with them between sets, and forgot I was married. That I showed up with beyond first rate gear and played their show in one pass . . . . just didn't seem to matter.

I'm turning into Uncle Ted more and more every day.

J o e y
willie
Advanced Member
Username: willie

Post Number: 251
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 - 6:26 am:   Edit Post

Joey
My bass Rig is in reality a Full Range Bass PA System. With the frequency response and SPL's it has, I could easily use it as a PA system and it could do that at even higher SPL's than when used as a bass rig due to the tremendous power required to reproduce a live bass guitar as compared to other instruments.
And you are right about increases in volume being a logarithmic function. I had to learn to use formulas to figure out if the person in the 2nd row experienced 115db SPL, then how much loss of SPL would there for someone in the 100th row 200 feet back and what would the SPL be there and you have to use a logarithm in the formula to figure that out. It takes 10X the power to make something sound twice as loud. But I have given up on trying to explain this stuff to members of a band I am talking to about playing for them. They never understand the physics of it. I wouldn't say I have an unbreakable headroom with my system, but I can't imagine ever having to push it to it's limits. But try to tell people they are more likely to damage their speakers with too little amplifier power as opposed to too much and they think you are out of your mind.
And people always say why can't you just show up with a Mexican built Precision Bass played through a 1X15 Peavey combo amp. Well, if that's what they want, I'm probably not the right person for that band.
Are you asking me if I know specific amps to use that are between combo amps and full concert rigs like mine? While I read a lot about amps that are out there and available, I prefer to purchase the drivers I feel will do the best job for what I intend for them to do and then design my own cabinets to put them in. And I do pay attention to mfg. suggestions for internal volume, resonant frequency and square inches of shelf venting or porting.
What are you currently playing through?
I know I have some ideas I would like Charlie Holmes to try with his system. He has a series bass, 2 F1-X pre-amps, 2 power amps and 4 cabinets. I want to try configuring his system so each pick up's output is amplified in a separate bi-amp configuration.
And how did showing up with a professional sound system with a roadie to move it in my own van, have the best type of bass available, (Alembic), and knowing the material better than the other members of the band and having no ego or attitude become grounds for being fired?
Will
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 1729
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 - 8:29 am:   Edit Post

Hey Willie!
If you even want to reduce the footprint of your rig while maintaining headroom, etc., you might look into what Mike uses!

:-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NDxginP3fk

I'm still humping my own gear, so it's an F2B, Peavey IPR 3000 and a fEARful 15.6.1 for me. Or, if I'm feeling old school, a Fender Showman/Sunn 200S.
5a_quilt_top
Advanced Member
Username: 5a_quilt_top

Post Number: 282
Registered: 6-2012
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 - 8:53 am:   Edit Post

Hey Willie -

You seem like a top-notch pro player with a great attitude. Maybe you, your gear and your work ethic were just too much for them.

I can relate - been dere, dun dat and got a few T-shirts along the way for my efforts.

If your rig was better than the band's PA, I could predict trouble right there. If your bass was better than the guitarist's guitar(s), well...game ON.

IMO, you shouldn't ever aspire to mediocrity on any level just to fit in - however, sometimes you need to be a little flexible if the gig is really important to you. That having been said, if you flex too much and compromise YOUR standards, you will be unhappy and will not deliver the performance you are capable of.

This is a lot like using the correct tool for the job. A tank is formidable weapon in the right context, but sometimes a hand gun is all that is required.

Or sometimes just a sling shot.

But, if you really love tanks - you need to go find general Patton and make history!
willie
Advanced Member
Username: willie

Post Number: 252
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 - 11:45 am:   Edit Post

I did get an e-mail from the guitar player from the band who was from Liverpool but moved across the pond stating that being released from the band had nothing to do with my personality. He said I was the best bass player they ever played with or heard. It was just that I was doing things on a much higher level and had higher aspirations than they did and that the leader of the band was intimidated by my rig and basses.
I had way more power than their PA,(but did not play too loud), and although the guitar player had about 30 guitars, none of them compared to my Alembic Basses. And in 1 month I knew their set lists better than they did and had to correct their mistakes. And I don't like mistakes when playing live. They also didn't know how to work their PA. I was trying to teach them.
At this point in my life I just want to find musicians with pro attitudes who are serious about playing and want great sounding bass and don't make such a big deal about what I play through. How the bass sounds is all that should matter. And there must be a band out there that wants the bass to sound good. Shouldn't everyone in the band want to play and sound their best. That way the whole band can sound it's best.
I know that playing through my stuff makes me play better because the sound I picture making in my head actually comes out of the speakers. It took me 36 years of work, research, studying, trying different things and a little bit of money along the way to put this thing together. I just want the chance to use it.
Thanks for your nice comments and encouragement.
Will
charles_holmes
Advanced Member
Username: charles_holmes

Post Number: 331
Registered: 3-2009
Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2014 - 10:39 pm:   Edit Post

I did take note of the shotty leaning on the speaker! I betcha nobody will try and steal your rig!
hammer
Senior Member
Username: hammer

Post Number: 498
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Sunday, June 15, 2014 - 10:12 am:   Edit Post

Good pick up Charles? I've seen that photo a number of times and never noticed the shotgun. Two thoughts...

(1) Has Willie ever experimented with what volume is needed from his rig to fire that shotgun (safety catch in the "on" position); and

(2) If the shotgun is officially part of Willie's rig and he brings it to practices to help "teach" fellow band members, could its presence, more than the incredible amplification and sound production system itself, be the reason they are intimidated (haha)?
jazzyvee
Senior Member
Username: jazzyvee

Post Number: 4065
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Monday, June 16, 2014 - 1:33 am:   Edit Post

I never even noticed that shotgun, I just saw the chains linking the gear together and thought that's a pretty secure way of keeping your gear safe.

I'd actually love a proper big bass rig like that. I do have what I call big rig capability, (F1-x,SF-2,QSC PLX and 3x mesa boogie cabs). However most times I only use one cab usually the 4x10 or 1x15. But for at least one gig I'd like to be able to use all 3 cabs. :-)

Jazzyvee
coop
New
Username: coop

Post Number: 1
Registered: 6-2014
Posted on Monday, June 16, 2014 - 9:57 am:   Edit Post

My "big rig" is usually two Eden 112s with an Eden 212 in 4 ohm, all driven from an Eden 550 (2 ohms total). I've never really needed anything bigger since I go direct for venues that need more horsepower.

For smaller outdoor gigs, I often take one 112 and my SWR SoB 1x15.

Outdoor big rig
charles_holmes
Advanced Member
Username: charles_holmes

Post Number: 332
Registered: 3-2009
Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2014 - 9:18 am:   Edit Post

Although I like the chains, I think it's more fun to use a shotty because it will really expedite the soiling of the pants!
wfmandmusic
Member
Username: wfmandmusic

Post Number: 74
Registered: 1-2012
Posted on Friday, July 04, 2014 - 8:49 pm:   Edit Post

I appreciate Willie's courage and persistence to end up with this rig. I truly believe in the idea of it. I've taken my own rig somewhat in that direction at times but end up bailing because my brain gets all clogged up with the science of it all. And yes I have had other musicians, FOH, and my community say I was crazy. I did a show last month and my band was setting up the back line. I wheeled my rig in and asked the sound tech about where to put it and he replied "How about back in the truck. That's more low end than my PA." I said well I don't have to turn it up very loud and he said "That's right because I'm going to run you direct through the house". I explained that I would have 0 control of my tone that way and he said "That's okay, I got it and I've been doing this for years". After a long explanation I finally got him to agree but it was a process. I for one would really love to try your rig out and if we all get together, I'm in as I live in Philly anyhow. Oh yea I get to hear Mike's rig up close in person this Tuesday and Wednesday as they are playing at the Mann Center right here in Philly.
willie
Advanced Member
Username: willie

Post Number: 253
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2014 - 5:12 am:   Edit Post

Ah, someone noticed the shotgun. It's a Remington 870 Wing Master 12 Gauge Magnum. I didn't mean for it to be in the picture. But I always have at least 1 "Deterent" at my side. Usually several. 44 Magnum, 303 British Enfield Sniper Rifle with bayonet and a 32 cal. Beretta. Not a good idea to show up unannounced. And definitely don't break in. I got to use the rig in Western Pa a while back. It scared people a little but they loved the sound. Couldn't move it without my van. Thanks for all the acknowledgement and nice words on my system. I've put a lot of work into it and it is the best bass sound I have ever heard. Where exactly are you in Philly?
charles_holmes
Advanced Member
Username: charles_holmes

Post Number: 345
Registered: 3-2009
Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2014 - 7:04 am:   Edit Post

Hey Ken, Willie is a great guy! You gotta hook up with him. I grew up in Southwest Philly but moved to Williamsport 26 years ago. There is some kind of fish (but it looks like a sea monster & it's big enough to take your hand off with one bite!!!) over here that Willie fishes for, Anyway he stopped by to see me and tried out my rig/bass. We had a nice mini gathering here in Wmspt. Thanks again for stopping by Willie!
pierreyves
Senior Member
Username: pierreyves

Post Number: 1187
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2014 - 7:56 am:   Edit Post

here are mines, I can use seperatly or both.
The big one with Carvin power amp is "light" ;-) because the amp's weight is 3.5 kg





on stage
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq

Post Number: 5792
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2014 - 8:58 am:   Edit Post

Two Alembic basses? Are you guys playing Spinal Tap's "Big Bottom"? lol

Bill, tgo
pierreyves
Senior Member
Username: pierreyves

Post Number: 1190
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2014 - 9:10 am:   Edit Post

one tenor, one bass yes ;-)
willie
Advanced Member
Username: willie

Post Number: 254
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2014 - 11:55 am:   Edit Post

I tried doing a 2 bass band. Always wanted to do that. But the other bass player said no one could ever say I sound like anyone else. But that was a little unreasonable. Especially when I told him that Alembic basses have a distinct sound and my sound has been compared to Stanley Clarke or Mark King so he said that wasn't acceptable. He played a left handed Precision copy bass upside down with a 5lb weight duct taped to the back so it would balance and was playing through I don't know what piece of crap. Needless to say I quit. But would like trying that situation both ways. I have an Alembic tenor bass as well as 32,34 and 35" Alembics. And 1 very small amp. Ha Ha. Charlie, Thanks for the nice words. Enjoyed the visit and look forward to another. Full moon this weekend but doesn't look feasible. The fish are Muskies and the moon phase is important when trying to catch the biggest ones. Maybe soon. I'll try to post a picture of the replica I had built of one with the guy holding it before final painting. Would have broke PA State Record
Will
WillUnfinished Muskie Replica
wfmandmusic
Member
Username: wfmandmusic

Post Number: 75
Registered: 1-2012
Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2014 - 4:22 pm:   Edit Post

I use to fish Muskies in the rivers in Michigan when I was younger. Tough to land em for sure. I just moved from Mt. Airy to Oreland due to another disaster with a woman. The more it hurts, the more soulful the music gets!
Im curious how Pierre likes that Yamaha amp in his rig?
Mike Gordon's tone was killer the last two nights. I think he tweaked something the second night because I thought it sounded better. That Modulus was kicking!
pierreyves
Senior Member
Username: pierreyves

Post Number: 1193
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Friday, July 11, 2014 - 12:58 am:   Edit Post

Yamaha is an old story: it was the first poewr amp I used in 80' in my first rigs.
And now, is a good reliable poweramp, powerful, clear sound, no noise... just a little heavy (11kg) and not so expensive

http://www.thomann.de/fr/yamaha_p5000s_endstufe.htm?sid=7eea3a976222f490ae67047199ba2c2d

my old one !!

alembics2.jpg

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