| Author | Message | ||
| keith_h
Intermediate Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 106 Registered: 2-2005 |
I am planning on ordering a fretless this next week and am still undecided on whether I want ghost frets and the type of wood, if I do go with them. I spent some time talking with Susan (thanks again for your time Susan) but still have problems visualizing what they would look like after aging. I don't want a wood that has a real high contrast with the ebony but it can't be so dark as to defeat the purpose of the frets. Looking through the archives I found a number of fretless basses that are said to have ghost frets but very few detailed pictures. Can folks post some neck shots and wood types that I might be able to use for comparison? I am a fretted bassist and have gotten used to feeling the frets to determine neck position. Since I don't have this tactile feedback on a fretless I have decided on some type of fret line. If I go with the side lines I will use maple but am concerned they will have too much contrast on the face. Thanks, Keith | ||
| dadabass2001
Advanced Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 397 Registered: 6-2002 |
Hi Keith, I have maple ghost frets in my Epic fretless. They are thinner than real frets but appear about like frets when viewed from head on (the audience's perspective when you face them). The worst case scenario would be that the audience would think you were playing a fretted instrument. Let me suggest the best alternative I know, getting side leds (which I also have on the same fretless). I absolutely LOVE them, and could easily do without the ghost frets because of them. But you tell me from these shots taken at a Noah Gabriel show I played this winter:    Mike | ||
| sfnic
Member Username: sfnic Post Number: 82 Registered: 3-2005 |
Here's a thought: Go with padauk (vermillion) fret lines. They'll be nice and subdued, and will age over the years from red to a nice dark brown. So, as you gradually outgrow the need for them, they'll gradually disappear into the ebony. Of course, cherry would be a good intermediate color. Not as in-your-face as, say, maple, but a bit more visible than mahogany. | ||
| richbass939
Advanced Member Username: richbass939 Post Number: 310 Registered: 11-2004 |
Mike, no idea what kind of music you guys are playing. However, in pic #3 it looks like you're definitely in the groove. Rich | ||
| son_of_magni
Intermediate Member Username: son_of_magni Post Number: 181 Registered: 1-2004 |
I would definately go for something that doesn't look like actual frets. Something like Purple heart, Ipe, or Walnut. Enough for you to see but not giving anyone watching the idea that it has frets. I've never had a bass with fret markers but I can see how they might be nice. But actually when I first built a bass, I didn't put any marks, not even side dots, on the neck. I was a very valuable experience playing a fretless that way for about six months. Now to a large extent I can actually play fretless with my eyes closed! But for performing you really want to have something to fall back on. | ||
| trekster
Junior Username: trekster Post Number: 38 Registered: 7-2004 |
If I recall (not sure if Alembic did this or not), I remember seeing a bass where the fret lines had been sawed out, inlaid with white plastic, then fretboard glued with the lines down..thus giving only the ends showing on the two sides. Was planning on doing that after I get my 8-string done. --T | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 574 Registered: 6-2002 |
Trekster, You're probably referring to the "sidelines" option. Nice try on describing how it's done, but I think you will find that it is impossible to do it that way, as the surface of most fretboards in existence is not flat. | ||
| trekster
Junior Username: trekster Post Number: 39 Registered: 7-2004 |
adriaan, Impossible? Not the way I'm thinking. Lessee if this works -- an ASCII view of the side of an neck, my way of thinking: string ------------------------------------------- _____________________________________ fingerboard wood ___|_______|______|____|____|__|__|__| neck wood _____________________________________ This is based on sawing your own fingerboard, and keeping the side you inlay the fretlines into flat. After you glue it to your neck, then camber the top of the fingerboard to whatever radius. Like I said my thinking. I've seen it done before. Is this what you were thinking, or something else? --T | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 2571 Registered: 6-2000 |
When we inlay sidelines on a fretless fingerboard, we only "nick" the edge and do not extend the fretline all the way across. You can see the finished result on Barry's Featured Custom, and also on Kent's. Before the days where I took 300 pictures a week, we made an Orion 5-string fretless in Vermilion with Vermilion fretlines, for just the reason sfnic stated. Of course, once the board is resurfaced, those orangey-red lines will be bright and shining. We've done both Koa and Walnut fretlines as well (again, not pics, sorry!). I personally found that since these woods have variations in color, it looks a little funny, almost like we didn't inlay a strip of consistant width. Unlined is best - as lines are really only guides. If you can force yourself to take the pluge, don't get lines, rely on your ears/brain. But if you want to guides, the sidelines are second best - they leave the surface free from different materials for wonderful gliss. Over time as the wood shrinks at a different rate than the glues that hold the fretlines in, you won't hear any even slight ratcheting as you slide. Many players are attracted to fretless for the precise reason that they want to play the notes between the frets, and the pull those fractional intervals that never seem to intonate. When I grow up, I want to be a fretless 5-string player. But I think that's a long long way away! | ||
| trekster
Junior Username: trekster Post Number: 40 Registered: 7-2004 |
Ah...I can see the Alembic way, and it is good. Certainly would save on inlay material! The way I described earlier is also based on using the StewMac template system for sawing fretlines -- where you use a blank fingerboard that has not yet been trimmed to the neck dimensions. But all in all, I agree with what you said as far as going the unmarked route. --T | ||
| keith_h
Intermediate Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 108 Registered: 2-2005 |
Thanks for the responses. I don't want high contrast ghost frets and still had/have qualms about the different woods in the fretboard with the extreme changes we have in humidity here in NC. After looking at as many pictures as I could (I had already looked through the custom archive when I openned this topic) I decided that sidelines are the best way for me to go. I will always be a fretted bass player first. I don't look at its neck today except for very rare occasions when I'm not sure which way I'm facing. I rely upon feeling the frets and hearing the note to gauge where I'm at on the neck. As a substitute for fret feel the sidelines should work as a visual subsitute (at least till I start playing the fretless while doing lead vocals). Thanks again, Keith | ||
| jetbass79
Member Username: jetbass79 Post Number: 55 Registered: 2-2005 |
I find that fretlines cause me more problems than an unlined fingerboard...I don't know if anyone else has this issue. I just figure take the year of constant playing to play a fretless with no lines and you will be good to go. But that's just me... | ||
| haddimudd
Intermediate Member Username: haddimudd Post Number: 140 Registered: 6-2002 |
This post is probably obsolete now since Keith has already made his decision, but maybe someone enjoys to see some variations of subdued fretlines as on the website of this gentleman who happens to offer epoxy jobs for Jaco-like fingerboard surfacing: http://www.woodwiz.com/guitarlab/epoxy.html At some point I discussed with him using mother of pearl or abalone inlays as fretlines for a Fender neck he would be upgrading for me. It was an intreaguing idea but I wasn't brave enough to go that route, I chose black fretlines on rosewood fingerboard instead. However, there was inspiration for the shell idea when I saw this inlay provider: http://216.105.59.114/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1287 Maybe one day I will try this on... my next Alembic fretless maybe? I would love to see this done on somebody's bass for sure. I must admit, I do like fretlines on fretless basses, regardless of the fact that I am comfortable on an unlined fretless just the same. Especially in the higher solo register and when playing chords I am much faster in the correct pitch than I am if I have to slide into pitch by ear first, which still works too. I never experienced the lines causing any problems for me. If I decide to play by muscle memory and ear I won't be looking at them anyways. But when I feel for a guideline it is there. The same goes for side markers or LEDs, I like them when I am looking for a guide and ignore them when playing by ear. To each his Dulcinea, I guess. Hartmut (Message edited by haddimudd on June 28, 2005) | ||
| son_of_magni
Intermediate Member Username: son_of_magni Post Number: 183 Registered: 1-2004 |
I think I just posted this somewhere else so forgive me if you already read this. Since I just built a couple basses and I was reluctant to drill holes in the edge of the fingerboard to put in side dots, I spent a few months playing with no markers at all. It was a great learning experience. But in response to Keith, I think it's harder to play a fretted bass without looking than fretless. So I want to warn you, when you start playing fretless you might stop considering yourself a "fretted bass player"... be careful! ;-) | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 575 Registered: 6-2002 |
One day I will order myself an unlined fretless 5 - for now, I'll get by with my beloved defretted Epic 4. Here's a picture of the fretlines:  I asked for a low-contrast wood, and builder Peer Dellen suggested darkened maple - from what I remember he said it was treated with water to get that color. No problems with uneven shrinking or swelling, but then I live in a temperate climate ... | ||
| mpisanek
Junior Username: mpisanek Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2005 |
This will probably get a few people a little upset. I was under the impression that fretless meant without frets. If you are going to use a fretless instrument why even have fret lines anyway? Doesn't that mean that when you play your instrument you have to stand there and stare at your fingerboard in order to get the correct pitch. I was under the impression that you should try to look at the audience as much as possible, not down at your own instrument! One of the biggest reasons for using a fretless instrument is some of the tonal inacuracies that a real player tries to use to his advantage. This is the beauty of the instrument. How many of you have seen a lined upright bass? I have not. When I go out to see musicians perform, I like them to be paying attention to the audience. If they are looking down at their instruments all the time, I feel that I might as well not be there at all! Playing a fretless is a state of mind, a feel. More of an art. I believe if you are going to go fretless then go fretless without going half way. If you want your instrument to look like it has frets on it get it with frets on it! Sorry about that! Just couldn't resist. By the way, I am registered blind and can't see the frets or fretlines when I play. Michael. | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 470 Registered: 11-2002 |
Michael, It happens that I can still see, yet I would never have fretlines either, and after much consideration I eventually decided against LEDs because I recognized that I played better when I wasn't looking. As SOM said, I think it may actually be harder to play fretted without looking, and I find the lines distracting. I was having dinner with some friends recently, and one of them - not a musician - asked a very insightful question: if you're playing a fretted instrument, don't you always want to put your finger just where the fret is? As to whether it's important to look at the audience, while I agree that connecting with them is important (not that I actually perform live, I'm on the other side), you don't have to be able to see to do so. As far as I'm concerned, you can stand there with your eyes closed, as long as you hear and respond to what else is going on, and make it better. It is most definitely a state of mind. -Bob | ||
| reinier
Junior Username: reinier Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2003 |
"One of the biggest reasons for using a fretless instrument is some of the tonal inacuracies that a real player tries to use to his advantage. This is the beauty of the instrument" ..... Is it not pre-eminently the fretless that allows us to circumvent the tonal inaccuracies of fretted basses (or it must be you have a "Buzz Feiten" system installed)? It's a matter of good taste of course (and fortunately we all differ in that department) but I think that my ears would be most grateful when a "real player" would stop staring into the stage lighting while trying to use tonal inaccuracies to his advantage ;-D! | ||
| haddimudd
Intermediate Member Username: haddimudd Post Number: 141 Registered: 6-2002 |
Yes funny, this is one of these religious topics. Of course any purist would hate the idea to have people think he might be so much of a beginner that he would need these little helper lines, thus he rather wants to stand up as a mature player who can do fine without them. It is a very legitimate psycholical phenomenon. I don't feel my maturity questioned though just because I like the lines. You could surely drive a car without a speed indicator if you got used to the feel of speed. I enjoy playing unlined fretless basses just the same. And they look as pure as a fretless instrument can look. But it is just looks. What do I care about looks on an instrument when it comes to usefulness? Ok, I do care, otherwise I wouldn't be on this forum, but besides that, I did play unlined fretless and lined fretless. Now, who says you do have to look at your fretlines just because they are there? What a silly idea is that to believe you wouldn't be able to take your eyes off the instrument just because it has these little lines on them? And who says you have to play your pitch at the spot where the line sits? I play it in front and behind the lines wherever the pitch sounds best, it is still a fretless instrument. I play it exactly where I would play it on an unlined fretless. Fretlines are just guides, like side markers. Do you leave away your sidemarkers just because you won't find them on an upright bass or a violine? Maybe you would and I am sure you would be able to play just as fine. I just have additional options available with fretlines or side markers. Whether I make use of these options during playing or not is purely up to me and usually a matter of the musical situation itself. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I for my part have never understood why purists get so upset about other people's lined fretless instruments. There are discussions about 4 string vs. 5-string, flat strings vs. roundwounds, bolt ons vs. neck through, etc. The fretlines discussion is just as much dependent on personal taste as any of the other. I don't think Mr. Pastorius was ever embarrassed at his fretlines and he surely could have played unlined fretless instrument if ever he wanted. I guess, you decide what is right for you and that is all that counts. Other people will chose differently for themselves and that is just as alright. Hartmut | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 578 Registered: 6-2002 |
Just because there are fretlines on my fingerboard doesn't mean that I have to look at them ... But even when I do, my fingers are all over the place! | ||
| mpisanek
Junior Username: mpisanek Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2005 |
Please don't think that I am a purist! More like a stirrer in this situation. I love bass! I love to play, work on, and listen to other people playing then! I love to talk about them and listen to what other people have to say. I also love to agree to disagree about them. Personally I play a fretted spoiler 6 string and a Mosesgraphite upright 6 string with no markers or lines. They are obviously very different beasts for very different jobs. My personal preference is not having lines or markers on an unfretted instrument. But as I said earlier I can't see them anyway! I don't look at my fretted bass when I play either! | ||
| keith_h
Intermediate Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 110 Registered: 2-2005 |
First my apologies I didn't mean to start a religous war. I was just trying to locate lined fretless bass pictures to determine what I want on my new bass. It was a personal taste and aesthetics thing. Hartmut, I can partially agree with your car analogy. It would work as long as there is no music playing. It has been shown time and again that different songs will result in different speeds. One of the more dangerous ones I have found was Radar Love by Golden Earring. In addition to myself I know several other people caught speeding while it was playing on the radio. :-) Keith | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 1970 Registered: 5-2002 |
I guess they don't call it "Radar" Love for nothing <g>! | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 1971 Registered: 5-2002 |
I think that perhaps the more important thing might be the music itself that is being produced, rather than whether the instrument has lines or frets or scallops or whether the player is looking at the instrument, at the other players, at the audience, or has eyes closed. I think it possible that a player can make a very strong connection with the audience without looking at them if the player is playing from the heart. | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 579 Registered: 6-2002 |
By the way, Michael: "How many of you have seen a lined upright bass? I have not." Really old double basses and gambas (like before 1800) often have organic pieces of string (gut?) around the neck, across the fingerboard, serving as frets. | ||
| mpisanek
Junior Username: mpisanek Post Number: 15 Registered: 1-2005 |
Adriaan: You are right, I have also seen gut fretted banjos, and the like as well. Good point! | ||
| haddimudd
Intermediate Member Username: haddimudd Post Number: 142 Registered: 6-2002 |
Dave, you made the very right point. The music that comes out of the instrument is the only thing that really matters. Michael, in your very personal case I wouldn't suggest fretlines either. | ||
| gare
Advanced Member Username: gare Post Number: 226 Registered: 11-2003 |
I've seen lined electric uprights. I've always played fretted instruments, guess I liked the safety of the frets. About 5 months ago I picked up a used fretless to try out..unlined..and I'm now thinking of an Alembic fretless, and considered lined. Because I like the visual reference, but the sidelines seem like a great alternative. Ms.Mica brings up a valid point about the aging process. Dave also makes a good point, isnt it important whats being produced by the instrument and the musician ? Although I've never found it all that entertaining to watch someone with their eyes glued on the neck, I believe we all do it to a point as a reference. Not meaning to offend anyone..but some of this sounds like mine are bigger than yours because you use lines and I dont. Gary | ||
| bracheen
Senior Member Username: bracheen Post Number: 757 Registered: 11-2003 |
I might as well throw in my opinion. I like the safety factor as well. I've never had a bass with side markers, my fretless Jazz had lines, but I think that would be the way for me to go. I like the look of the clean fretboard even to the point of no inlays. Also it's easy to glance down at the side of the neck but the face of it is not so readily visible to me. Sam | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 472 Registered: 11-2002 |
No offense taken, but just to make my personal position clear: it is not a matter of pride to me to not have fretlines, nor do I think poorly of those who do. I simply find them distracting, and also prefer the clean look. I could go on at some length about just how expensive visual processing is, and the rather surprising limits of the human brain to multi-task on simultaneous sensory input... but that would be another forum. Of course, if I played more, and in particular switched between fretted and fretless, perhaps the distraction would become less of an issue over time. No judgement implied here, just expressing a personal viewpoint and preference. -Bob | ||
| jetbass79
Member Username: jetbass79 Post Number: 58 Registered: 2-2005 |
I played the cello for 7 years with an unmarked fingerboard. I find it comfortable to play with an unmarked fingerboard on a fretless electric bass. I think if people want to have fretlines that's all cool to because this whole debate goes directly back to one of the arguments made in the early '50s when the electric bass came on the market: who is going to play this thing? Turns out guitar players, bass players playing electric bass, and bass players who started life out on double bass all play fretless basses if they so choose. Line, unlined, whatever...I find lines confusing and prefer the challenge of having to really listen and I think everyone should try playing with no frets and only side markers as clues. It would make us all better players. I do think learning to play with no lines is a great accomplishment, and yes Jaco did play basses later in his career that had no markers. However, I'm not going to go to someone's show who is playing a fretless bass and go "What a loser, he's playing with lines." However, in my head I think I should be able to give that person some light-hearted crap about it in principle... | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 473 Registered: 11-2002 |
While the "light-hearted crap" is admittedly tempting, it's still not how I think about it, so let me try this again. For a new player, or casual or infrequent player, fret or side lines are probably a great idea. It's still going to be a little odd, trying to play more or less "on" them rather than between, but it can certainly be helpful. But if your plan is to become a regular fretless player, then ask yourself this: if you play a note a little off, and want to figure out why, do you want to teach yourself to look at your finger and see how far off it is from a line, or do you want to just hear it (with your eyes closed) and learn how to adjust before anyone else notices, or thinks it was anything more than artistic freedom? It seems to me that playing a non-fretted instrument is a matter of training the ear, rather than the eye, and you have to learn how to adjust on the fly. If that's your goal, and you have the patience (think a couple of years or more), then skip the lines. If you just want to play occasionally, and still have a chance of sounding decent, then they may be a good choice. | ||
| mpisanek
Junior Username: mpisanek Post Number: 16 Registered: 1-2005 |
Daves point is absolutely dead on! The music is the most important thing. Music is an art and as such is open to all sorts of different ways of doing things. What is right for some might not be right for others, and one way is not better that the other. Both instruments with fretlines an without fretlines work perfectly well. I think it is just very interesting to hear other peoples' thoughts on the matter. | ||
| beelee
Member Username: beelee Post Number: 63 Registered: 11-2004 |
I 'm mainly a fretted bass player, but do play fretless bass on occasion, depending on the type and style of music I have to perform. My first fretless bass was a 1980's Ibanez Musician 4 strng ( they copied the style of an Alembic), it had no lines, but did have dots on the neck under the G string only, I kind of liked this and thought it was a neat idea( they looked like the dots on the side of the neck) I didn't have any problem adjusting from frets to no frets. I would use a combination of the dots and my ears to play in tune, but relied more so on my ears, also so I don't stare at the neck all the time, which even with frets I have a bad habit of doing. I had sold that bass last year, along with its fretted brother cause I don't play 4 strng as much anymore, have other nicer instruments and ordered a custom Alembic. I now use a Pedulla Pentabuzz lined fretless 5 strng, a Zeta crossover upright 4 strng unlined, Guild Ashbory 4 strng lined and a Fodera Monarch Elite fretless 6 string, unlined, but it has fret markers in the side of the neck, they are not very visible. lines, no lines or side markers........makes no difference its still a fretless bass, in the end its what ever you are comfortable and happy with on your instrument. its your decision, try as many types of fretless basses as you can. best wishes, B. | ||
| matthew90046
Junior Username: matthew90046 Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2005 |
I have a padauk fretless bass with padauk fretlines. I think it looks rather nice. (Message edited by matthew90046 on July 01, 2005) | ||
| matthew90046
Junior Username: matthew90046 Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2005 |
 (Message edited by matthew90046 on July 01, 2005) | ||
| keith_h
Intermediate Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 116 Registered: 2-2005 |
Matthew, I do like the look of the fret lines. This was the look I had in mind (and wood suggested by Nic) when I was considering ghost frets but wasn't sure what it would look like. Now the question is do I reconsider or not after all the order is only a couple of days old...... I guess I'll be having waffles for breakfast. :-). Keith (Message edited by keith_h on July 01, 2005) |
