| Author | Message | ||
| stout71
Advanced Member Username: stout71 Post Number: 218 Registered: 7-2011 |
Alright fellas - I'm pretty good at analyzing exactly what I need to do to get a signal from point A to point B, but at the very least I'd like some confirmation that what I'm doing is the easiest/best way to go about it. My setup is a little different than it was a year ago. The mix will be stereo at the venue. I was a little surprised by that but I figured, what the hell - I have the capacity for it, so I might as well use the goods. The plan is to run a TRS out from the bass into a Y-splitter (monos) into each channel of the F2b, then use both outputs into a stereo direct box (Radial ProAV2 - pic below) and out of that into the mixing console via 2 XLR's. The problem is that the guys will still need bass on stage (not so much me, as I use in-ears) so I am having to also use the mono out on the F2B into a bridged Crown power amp and out to my cab. I know that using all 3 outputs on the F2B isn't ideal, so any thoughts on this are greatly appreciated.  | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 2079 Registered: 2-2005 |
Stereo for the bass and stereo for the PA are two different things. The sound person is not going to run one bass pickup in into one PA channel and the other pickup into the other PA channel. Most likely they will be run full center which is the equivalent of mono. However unlike true mono it will complicate setting the bass in the mix because you have two channels to deal with as opposed to one. Personally when I am running sound for a band all I want is a mono signal from the bass. If I am using the DI on the preamp/amp I want it to be pre-eq. If I am not using the bass players rig for the DI I use my own portable DI and put it between the input of the amp and the bass or last effect in the chain. Using pre-eq signals allows me to make the bass sound good for the room independent of what the bass player does to make it sound good on stage. If you are using the venue's sound person I would talk to them about how they prefer to setup the bass in the PA. I suspect it will be similar to what I do. If they want to DI they usually have their own so you shouldn't need one. Keith | ||
| mario_farufyno
Senior Member Username: mario_farufyno Post Number: 1063 Registered: 9-2008 |
Calling dual output as stereo is what makes all confusion. Alembic Series may output each PU to a different path, this is not stereo at all. Use them panned in stereo system just if you wish stage each side audience to hear a different PU... or let sound engineer to balance them (and define your tone) instead of you. Make your life simpler sending them summed in a single mono DI unless your sound guy is used to that dual output setup, if he knows the exact way you like your tone and if you both have plenty of time to sound check just the bass... and be sure he will probably mix them in mono before sending it to FOH. | ||
| stout71
Advanced Member Username: stout71 Post Number: 219 Registered: 7-2011 |
The sound guy IS running two separate channels for me. I guess stereo vs. dual output is in the eye (ear) of the beholder. We are going to work on the sound together before the show to get it right. He will be getting post-EQ from the F2B and will be using my DI, because I can run left and right through it. He would have to use two DI's to accomplish the same thing. BTW, this sounds more like a lecture than help about my signal chain. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 11514 Registered: 5-2002 |
When I started reading through this thread, my first reaction was that this is a good idea; if the sound person gives you two channels, why not use them. Keith and Mario have good points that one side of the audience might be hearing more neck pickup and the other side might be hearing more bridge pickup. Here's what I would do ... I run my neck pickup into one channel of my F-2B, and I run the bridge pickup into the other channel. At that point of course, I can further EQ each pickup's signal. I then come out of the mono out jack into the rest of my signal chain. What you can then do is go into a multi-effects unit that will split the signal and run it through stereo effects. From there you'll have two outputs which can then go into your stereo direct box. The result out front will be a more spacious bass sound that will tend to feel wider. And the effects can be subtle; just a little bit can make a nice difference. Personally, I disagree with going pre-EQ to FOH since, as has been discussed here many times before, some sound mixers aim for their typical Fender sound with no character and no high end since, in their view, the vocal is the main thing going on and the bass is just a minor supporting role. Whereas I tend to think the bass is the most important thing going on, and the vocals just take up space on the stage.  | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 2080 Registered: 2-2005 |
Dave, I don't think you can validly say that just because the FOH gets a pre-eq signal you end up with a sound with no character any more than a post-eq signal is going to reflect your sound out front. In my experience post-eq frequently turns into mud because what sounds good on stage is not going to sound good in the rest of the room. Since it is post-eq it limits what I can do to fix the sound. You also get tweekers that all of a sudden decide to change something on their amp and blow the whole mix. The way to resolve the conundrum of getting your sound out front is to have your own sound person or adviser or for the sound person running sound to preview the band before the gig. While it doesn't always work I try to listen to a group I've never run sound for before my event. I also try to get some time to talk with the band to get a feel for how to run things. I know it doesn't always work out and there are those house guys that won't listen to anyone but in my Pollyanna world I like to think these are rare exceptions. As far as mixing style I tend to put the bass up front where it belongs and consider the rest window dressing but then again I am kind of jaded. Keith | ||
| stout71
Advanced Member Username: stout71 Post Number: 220 Registered: 7-2011 |
To continue the discussion, the room we'll be in is a small one, so the left side/neck pickup, right side/bridge pickup won't be an issue. If it were a huge, deep room with the mains spread way apart I wouldn't even consider it. Once you get back far enough from the stage it just sounds like mono anyway. To me, music is all about trying new stuff to see what works, what doesn't, what sounds good, what doesn't, etc. I'm not stuck in the "This is the way I've always done it, so why should I change it?" mindset. There are far too many examples in the music industry of musicians and producers pushing the boundaries and coming up with new and exciting, sometimes brilliant stuff. Yeah, there will always be variables, but sometimes you just have to say "WTF." I can think of countless times a bassist should have gone pre-eq and didn't, but I know many that got it right. I like to think I fall into the latter category. My ears have always treated me well. I don't always get it right, but I still get compliments on my sound after 30 years of playing. Making my life simpler is not my plan. Making it better is. Example: I have kids. | ||
| mario_farufyno
Senior Member Username: mario_farufyno Post Number: 1064 Registered: 9-2008 |
The problem about sending postEQ signal is that you can't change your tone at stage without affecting the sound audience will get from a different set of loudspeakers. If you have already noticed how different can sound 2 different cabinets, or if you just move your gear towards the corner, you know that you can't simply expect coherence between them. The sound behind FOH usually lacks brightness (lows can spread everywhere, but highs are very directional and wants to move forward only), so you tend to boost highs and cut lows at your amp. If you send this signal to mixing board, they will probably hear an odd tone. And things can get worst since room's tone change when house is crowded because people's flesh absorbs mainly highs. So is not unusual musicians having to make some adjustments in show time and all effort made during sound check ends being wasted. You can always try to compensate that, but common sense tells us to not let the tree grows bent to straighten it afterwards. In audio any EQ implies in phase shifting and distortion, so there will be always some sort of degradation. Ideally the EQ should be used to enhance your tone or to fit it in the mix, not to correct differences in how musicians hear on stage and what people hears at audience. (Message edited by mario farufyno on September 16, 2014) | ||
| mario_farufyno
Senior Member Username: mario_farufyno Post Number: 1065 Registered: 9-2008 |
My choice on sending prerEQ is more related to the fact that I want to feel free to change my gain and tone at stage anyway it presents being needed during performance, and being secure that this will not damage FOH mix. The fact is that you can't control what the engineer will do. He can always try to emulate that Fender tone despite the way you send your signal. You depend on his skills and good will to understand how each musician wants to sound during sound check and rehearsal. And can miss all this good will if you end changing your tone at stage during performance. My moto is: "I'll try to do my best, let he does his". If I can hear myself and bandmates, the issue of delivering a great tone to audience is his. I can just show how I prefer my tone asking him to hear me at stage and pointing what characteristics matters to me. But none of this considerations means a thing if he agreed to do that way, though. I never force them to do something they are unconfortable with. Who am I to disagree if he is confident to deal with the extra complexity that could bring? | ||
| mario_farufyno
Senior Member Username: mario_farufyno Post Number: 1066 Registered: 9-2008 |
Oh my, I totally missed your point, Jerry. Sorry... You must just check if F2B outs are compatible with DI ins because preamp outs can be too hot for some regular DIs, sometimes. But it seems to be the only way to sent both PUs splitted and postEQ. Lucky that there is a third summed out to feed an amp. (Message edited by mario farufyno on September 16, 2014) | ||
| stout71
Advanced Member Username: stout71 Post Number: 221 Registered: 7-2011 |
Yeah, I wasn't really asking for advice on whether it was appropriate for a live setting. I was asking about the technicalities of how to run everything. I have no plans to screw with my EQ once the show has started - especially during a set. I get a tremendous amount of warmth from my F2B without losing the high-end, so it's important to me that that timbre ends up in the mix. The FOH engineer can compress it if he wants to. As I mentioned before, I use in-ears so I could care less what it sounds like on stage as long as my bandmates can tolerate it in their monitors. The power amp/cabinet will be at a low level as to not interfere with the main mix. It's just there to provide a bump for the other guys in the band. Also, there is a 15db pad on the stereo DI. I think it will be fine. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 11518 Registered: 5-2002 |
Mario, I'm curious; I'm not an FOH person, so I don't know from experience. When you listen to my demos, do you think an FOH person can come up with that on their own with three or four knobs on the console? Do you think they'll take one look at me and suddenly know what sound I'm looking for and be able to create it then and there? The reason I tend to think that an FOH person isn't going to get that sound is because it takes me, in addition to my S2, an F-2B, an SF-2, a BBE 422A, and a Sansamp PSA-1; and that's just for the frequency curve and the gain structure. In the effects loop of the Sansamp are reverb, delay, chorus, tremolo, and volume control. Personally, I don't think a pre-EQ direct out to the FOH is going to result in that sound; but I could be wrong. | ||
| fc_spoiler
Senior Member Username: fc_spoiler Post Number: 1561 Registered: 5-2006 |
Not sure if it was mentioned here, but will a TRS plug into the bass work for the Activator electronics? | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 2081 Registered: 2-2005 |
I think this bass has Anniversary electronics looking at it's pictures in the FTC thread. As far as the DI goes it looks like it should handle line levels so the only thing to listen for is distortion caused by the F-2B and cut back the gain if you hear it after switching in the pad. Dave, In all likelihood you aren't going to get your sound with a post feed either. I'm not saying nor do I believe Mario is saying it is impossible just unlikely that you will get what you hear on stage out front. Also once you get out into the audience what you hear on stage can be completely different than what the audience hears due to room acoustics and dynamics. Assuming a post signal is sent to the PA there is still going to be a need for adjustments to make it sound like what you hear on stage. At this point though you are in the situation that Mario brings up about not being able to make changes on stage as they will affect the mix. A digital mixer could get around some of this by setting different scenes for your different settings. However this is something that is prone to error with an hour sound check from the house engineer who isn't intimately knowledgeable with your material. One last thing is my comments refer to a non-soloist situation. If it is just you playing getting what you hear on stage out front would be easier since you don't have to fit in the mix like you do with a combo but even as a soloist room acoustics will affect what the audience actually hears in different locations. Keith | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 1413 Registered: 1-2005 |
If you have a supportive soundman who is motivated to work with you to get your sound, let alone experiment, then I say more power to you! My general experience was that even the soundmen who were on my side weren't willing to put in that much work, so thinking about this whole thing still brings out a nervous reaction in me! I know that during many live shows with my band in the early '90s I wasn't in the PA because we had a lot of board tapes and I was almost never in the mix- grrr... | ||
| wayne
Advanced Member Username: wayne Post Number: 217 Registered: 5-2002 |
Good stuff here. Commenting back to one of the original questions. Once you plug into the Mono out of the F2B there will be a certain amount of cross-talk between the stereo outputs. I've never had an issue with it, just be aware that you will not have "total" separation. Also, it was recommended to me by Mr. W that the cable runs be kept as short as possible out of the F2B C-Ya..............wayne | ||
| 5a_quilt_top
Advanced Member Username: 5a_quilt_top Post Number: 358 Registered: 6-2012 |
More power to you if you can make this happen and successfully present the tone of your instrument as you intend it to be presented. As for me - I feel lucky if A. I can hear myself on stage B. My bandmates can hear what they need of me, without hearing "too much" C. The bass is present / somewhat distinct in the mains That's the holy trifecta of minimal satisfaction! | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 2252 Registered: 11-2004 |
Personally I cannot see the point of running any bass/guitar in stereo in a live enviroment, apart from the purists(mostly on here), does the audience really care how different it sounds on either side? Just looks like too many cards to deal with when all you want is one ace! | ||
| mario_farufyno
Senior Member Username: mario_farufyno Post Number: 1067 Registered: 9-2008 |
Dave, I was just talking about Eq, since it depends mostly on what acoustics environment you're into. It doesn't matters how much Eq circuits you need to feel your tone as right, you can only do it by your own perspective. As audience are seated in a different spot, they will be under another acoustic scenario and so they'll need different Eq settings to get the same tone you get at your spot on stage. And that's why we can't adjust our tone anymore after sound check in a post DI situation, as Keith explained. Any sound engineer who wants to be respected as a professional must not assume any tone as being the only way any instrument should sound. What could be a Fender tone, anyway? Marcus Miller's tone, Geddy Lee's, Larry Graham's? So it is basic walk up onto stage and hear what a musician is trying to achieve before trying to reproduce it to an audience. Anything less than that is for rookies or lazies. But, you're right. We can't use a DI before Modulation, Delay or Reverbs, as they are part of your tone. I was just pointing that you need first equalize to match your amp/cabinet's response with room acoustics before focusing in setting your tone. You can't simply assume the room will not interact with your cabinet, because it will, a lot. So, regardless choosing an amp or monitor wedge, we must compensate room acoustics at our particular spot first at the risk of thinking we're setting our tone while we're really ruining it. I'm probably less demanding about tone as many of you look to be, but I see my Alembic as being able to give me any tone I could come with (and it is not a Series). So I tend to take its circuit as being enough for the job of shaping my tone. Ok, I could probably use one external parametric Eq section with joy, but is essencial having one dedicated solely to flat monitoring different from the one used to help shape my tone. As I'm little used to record my bass in studio's controled enviroment with supposedly flatted monitor systems, I assume that I know how it should sound without any processing. This is the tone I seek on my amp on stage first time I turn it on. That way I'm closer to predict right which tone I am sending to house console. And I can even change the way my amp/monitor sounds like after turning FOH up loud or after audience came in, without messing everything, if I'm sending my signal before this last Eq. So you can have any amount of sound processing you wish, need or think you need, just guarantee setting flat your monitor first. The risk of having tons of Eq gear in our sinal chain is loosing the point we're looking for. Am I really equalizing my bass or am I correcting room acoustics? Hope I'm not being too repetitive and hope you get what I'm trying to say in my limited english, but there are so many skilled professionals that end eluded by this, so I stress that point anytime these questions present themselves. (Message edited by mario farufyno on September 21, 2014) |
