| Author | Message | ||
| cosmic
Junior Username: cosmic Post Number: 14 Registered: 5-2005 |
Are there major differences in tone on neck-thru Alembics when considering painted bodies vs. unpainted, natural finished bodies? Or is this purely an aesthetics issue? | ||
| jetbass79
Member Username: jetbass79 Post Number: 69 Registered: 2-2005 |
There are no unpainted bodies...to clarify things. You would see satin finished instruments with either polyester or oil and gloss finishes. Some would say there is more resonance with a lighter finish like nitro cellulose lacquer or oil than a harder finish like polyester or urethane. You can't have unfinished bodies because the wood would deteriorate over time from not being protected correctly. | ||
| s_wood
Intermediate Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 145 Registered: 5-2002 |
I have a couple of older Spector NS-5's. Both have quilted maple bodies which I assume are made of wood of roughly equal density because the basses are within a couple of ounces of being idential in weight. The only significant difference in the 2 basses is the finish: one has an oil finish, and one has a poly gloss. My ears hear a subtle but real difference in the tone of the 2 basses: the oil finished one is not quite a bright as the one with the gloss finish. Mike Tobias wrote this in a Bass Player article called "The Quest for Tone: From Alembic to Zon:" "There are cases when a piece of wood sounds significantly better with a certain type of finish. I remember building a bass that had a body made of very light swamp ash that received an oil finish. The instrument's tone was okay but a bit mushy and lacking crispness. For some reason, which I can't recall, we had to refinish the bass; the oil was cleaned off and the bass was shot with polyester. When we plugged it in, lo and behold--it had gained brightness and clarity." The bottom line is that every construction detail of a bass will affect the tone, and that's why Alembic pays such attention to every little detail! It's also why their basses sound so great. | ||
| bassplayer2106
Junior Username: bassplayer2106 Post Number: 43 Registered: 5-2005 |
I was recently lucky enough to play to Alembic Orions side by side. Both were 4 string models and both had Walnut facings.One had a high gloss finish and the other a satin finish. The difference in tone was quite dramatic - even my Dad noticed.The one with the satin finish had a deeper/warmer tone. | ||
| bigideas
Junior Username: bigideas Post Number: 39 Registered: 1-2004 |
that's really weird, unless alembic uses a different type of finish for satin finishes. or if it was actually an oil finish. gloss and satin polyester (or nitro cellulose for that matter) will be the same finish with a different "finishing" process.. satin doesn't get the buffing out that a gloss does. other than that they should be the same. oil on the other hand does tend to be less bright. the oil itself adds very little density and mostly acts to preserve the wood, where as a hard finish adds a solid shell. | ||
| jetbass79
Member Username: jetbass79 Post Number: 71 Registered: 2-2005 |
I still contend the actual wood makes more of a difference in the sound of the instrument than the finish does especially considering that active instruments rely more on circuits than anything else for their sound. You could have two instruments made from the same woods and finished identical to one another and still have violently different tones from each other. The main problem I have with oil finishes is that it requires constant maintenance and it looks terrible when sweat and grime come from playing. | ||
| bigideas
Junior Username: bigideas Post Number: 41 Registered: 1-2004 |
i would completely agree that wood makes a much much greater difference in tone compared to finish. finish should be more about the "feel" and look of the bass, taking tone into secondary account. | ||
| jacko
Advanced Member Username: jacko Post Number: 259 Registered: 10-2002 |
Matthew. I'm assuming the satin finish on the Orion Kevin tried out is the same as that on my epic, in which case, it's a different product to the gloss polyester - or if the same, applied in fewer coats as the grain feel is much more pronounced. The satin finish itself is also more susceptible to random damage being that much thinner. Hope this makes sense Graeme | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 585 Registered: 6-2002 |
Have to agree with Jacko: the polyurethane finish on older Epic/Orion/Rogue models was a lot thinner than the finish on other models. I think that it is not an actual "satin" finish, just not as shiny as "gloss". AFAIK the current satin finish is the same thickness as gloss, just that the buffing of the final layer(s) is done differently. So it should not be more susceptible to damage - as the PU finish was, which was the reason why it was discontinued. | ||
| jacko
Advanced Member Username: jacko Post Number: 261 Registered: 10-2002 |
I'm going to have to write this one down in my diary, no-one ever agrees with me ;-) Graeme | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 586 Registered: 6-2002 |
I'm happy to disagree with anyone anytime - just let me know when you're in need of an unsollicited argument. (Message edited by adriaan on July 29, 2005) | ||
| dadabass2001
Senior Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 417 Registered: 6-2002 |
"Oh, but then you're in the wrong cubilce... This is `Abuse' stupid git" Graham Chapman | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 587 Registered: 6-2002 |
No it isn't! | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 550 Registered: 7-2004 |
I'm a lumberjack and this parrot is just sleeping! Bill, tgo | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 588 Registered: 6-2002 |
Nudge nudge, wink wink. | ||
| bassplayer2106
Junior Username: bassplayer2106 Post Number: 45 Registered: 5-2005 |
I bought the bass with the satin finish. It's definately a different type of finish to the gloss.As Jacko says you can feel the grain through it. I had a Wal 5 string a few years ago with a similar finish to it. | ||
| keith_h
Intermediate Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 137 Registered: 2-2005 |
Say no more .... | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 2603 Registered: 6-2000 |
pho-to-graaaaphs The original finish on the Epic basses (and later the Orion and Rogue) is a thin polyurethane, usually only 3 coats or so. It's thin enough to allow the grain to show and be felt, but it's totally sealed. The idea was look like oil, care like poly. We were happy with the initial results, but decided to discontinue the finish because over time, the satin-look of the finish shines up where it's repeatedly touched. It's also so thin, that the wood tends to get damaged, like an oil finish. In my experience, the wood speaks more than the paint or finish, at least on Alembics. We've made instruments with the same spec list at the same time that sound different simply because the individual pieces of wood are different. Each variable, such as the paint, will contribute to the overall result in some way. If you are interested in recreating the sound of an early Alembic, you should have us use an oil finish and probably a different top and back wood, a thin fingerboard, among other things. If you want a really bright sounding bass, and you ask for a Koa top and oil finish, we'll steer you to better choices for the goal. An instrument is a complete picture, you don't play only one variable, and all the parts need to be considered if you want to take an educated guess about how it will sound/behave before you build it. | ||
| the_mule
Senior Member Username: the_mule Post Number: 530 Registered: 1-2004 |
Your wish is my command, lady Mica ;-) http://alembic.com/club/messages/411/15998.jpg You can even see the parts of the bass (both sides of the neck pickup) where the finish has 'shined up' because of repeated touch. Wilfred |
