| Author | Message | ||
| jetbass79
Member Username: jetbass79 Post Number: 95 Registered: 2-2005 |
I used to work for Guitar Center, but only recently, when the appearence of boutique basses became non-existent. But I remember 10 years ago when you could walk into a small GC and they would have many Epic basses at the very least, and the larger ones would have the fancier more expensive Alembic basses. So if there is a thread which explains this separation, I would like to know where it is because I am curious, or if the story has never been told, I would like to know it. It's more for historical purposes than anything else... I will say given Guitar Center's rapid expansion business model, it's good that Alembic does not cater to this because there would be no way to keep such high standards of integrity for a product of Alembic's calibre. | ||
| 88persuader
Intermediate Member Username: 88persuader Post Number: 149 Registered: 5-2004 |
Speaking of integrity ... I have to add this. 1st I'm an Alembic player and lover HOWEVER several years ago I went to the Guitar Center in Danvers MA just before Christmas looking for a more high end bass. They had taken delivery of several 4 and 5 string Epics. I at the time had never tried an Alembic, all i knew was Stanley clark played them. When I went to take one off the wall a salesman who knew me ran up to me and told me to be careful because the frets were so sharp he was afraid I'd get cut. Well he wasn't kidding, the necks had shrunk and the frets were sticking out of the sides and were very sharp. Honestly i was blown away that a guitar store would allow an instrument to be put on the wall in that condition, especially considering they were some of the most expensive basses in the store. I ended up buying a Musicman Stearling and being totally disillusioned at Alembic. Years later I discovered a choice used Persuader at the very same GC and became a hard core Alembic lover. My point thought is if a music store expects top dollar for an instrument they need to set it up properly. When i mentioned the frets to the store salesman his response was "If you buy it we'll get it worked on." My feeling was I'm spending almost 2 grand for a NEW 4 string bass and it has to be repaired before i take it home? You have to be kidding! Sooooooooo if that's how the GC represents Alembic basses I for one am glad they don't deal Alembics anymore ... they'll give them a bad name! | ||
| hb3
Junior Username: hb3 Post Number: 37 Registered: 2-2005 |
They don't set up the basses before they stick them on the wall...I don't think I've ever played a playable bass off the rack at guitar center. as far as alembic and guitar center, I once asked long li about this at the la bass exchange -- before they went out of business -- and he told me his version of what happened, which as I recall was pretty salacious, but frankly I can't really remember what it was now. I've posted here asking about it...no one seems to want to talk about it. | ||
| rockbassist
New Username: rockbassist Post Number: 7 Registered: 8-2005 |
The condition of basses off the shelf really depends on the store. I deal exclusively with Guitar Center in North Attleboro, MA (despite the fact that they are 1 hour from my house)and have always had good luck. However, there is only one salesman that I will deal with. Any instrument will need some adjusting after purchase based on the player's individual style and preferences. Also, the fact that settings change during shipping and handling. I recently bought a used Epic at the GC that I mentioned. All I had to do to it was set the intonation and adjust the action. I liked the bass so much that I bought another one from a private party and had to make similar adjustments. I have been told by several people who own music stores that the reason most do not carry high end gear is because they can sell more of the low to moderately priced and make more profit. | ||
| bassjigga
Junior Username: bassjigga Post Number: 11 Registered: 8-2005 |
It's true that any instrument will probably require some adjustment depending on the player's tastes. But the GC where I live has the action on their basses so high they're not even playable. I want to say it's over 1/4" which is ridiculous. It's not that hard to take an allen wrench to the bridge and at least make it reasonable. | ||
| jetbass79
Member Username: jetbass79 Post Number: 96 Registered: 2-2005 |
The fret end issue has more to do with temperature and humidity conditions than it does with the store that is selling the instrument. The problem is when these conditions do arise someone has to fix them and sometimes that means putting extra money into the piece because of the labor required to fix it. Then there's a competent person required to fix it and that can be a problem, too. There are lots of "luthiers" out there but a lot of them are hacks at best. So it can be a real quandry... | ||
| pace
Intermediate Member Username: pace Post Number: 171 Registered: 4-2004 |
I think it comes down to the whole quality / quanity debacle and I admire the folks in Santa Rosa for making their romance w/ GC a short one. When a small company deals with a corporate entity such as GC, Walmart, or the like, they are at the whim of whatever rules / regulatory procedures the buying agent puts forth.... From shipping/receiving to marketing to packaging if your product does not meet their "requirements" chances are you will be penalized in some way. In essence, doing business with "big business" can sometimes open up pandora's box~ you sign a contract that looks lucrative and promises big numbers but all of a sudden you find that you are being micro-managed from some outside number cruncher!!!! Think about it~ why do so many companies that do business w/ WalMart move to Bentonville AR?!?!?!? THEY ARE SLAVES!!!! | ||
| dannobasso
Advanced Member Username: dannobasso Post Number: 305 Registered: 3-2004 |
I believe that it came down to GC's usual hardball tactics. They wanted pice breaks on quantities. They do this to everyone and really beat up the suppliers. If you want to sell in their stores, thats what you do, sell them to GC cheaper. Alembic stood its ground. It takes the same amount of time to make each instrument regardless of quantity. Why should they sell for less if the order is higher? IMHO, really knowledgeable and qualified sales staff at chain stores are hard to keep around. They get jerked on a regular basis. I do all my own adjustments so it's no big deal for me. I went into Ash in Paramus NJ after a call from a friend who works there. He said an Essense 5 was waiting for me. When I got there I asked them for some tools and lemon oils and I set up the bass for display. About a week later, I went in and bought it. So with that, a Rouge 5 I'm buying used privately and my lastest custom Excel. I'm done with buying basses for a good while. An Alembic baker's dozen is enough for now. Oh, BTW GC Paramus has a very nice used MK Balance K 5 for sale. Danno | ||
| hasadari
Member Username: hasadari Post Number: 81 Registered: 6-2005 |
A MK Balance K 5 - Standard or Deluxe? Any details? Please let me know. Bob Brown hasadari@aol.com | ||
| dannobasso
Advanced Member Username: dannobasso Post Number: 306 Registered: 3-2004 |
as memory serves, deluxe stinger omega w/led's and walnut top though I could be wrong. Call them up, I'm sure they will talk shop. Danno | ||
| mgatov
Junior Username: mgatov Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2005 |
I admire Alembic for not seeking endorsements. The instruments speak for themselves and their worth/value is apparent to anyone who picks one up. Besides, I bought my Tribute because of what it is and does. I couldn't care less who else uses it. Alembic and the WalMart mentality seem to be diametrically opposed. Kudos to Alembic for maintaing their standards and the concept of fairness. Michael | ||
| hb3
Junior Username: hb3 Post Number: 38 Registered: 2-2005 |
it was a strange match, that's for sure... the other one that mystifies me is pedulla. I actually did buy my buzz bass at a GC...they're listed as official dealers, far outnumbering the independent music stores who carry their instruments. weird! | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 485 Registered: 10-2003 |
Additionally, GC is owned by Fender... | ||
| jetbass79
Member Username: jetbass79 Post Number: 97 Registered: 2-2005 |
If GC was owned by Fender you would think that they would have more Fender product in there than standard series and american series basses, no? So I would have to assume that statement is a joke. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 488 Registered: 10-2003 |
Nope. Fender also owns at least part of Epiphone, if you can believe it (like Honda owning part of Harley Davidson, which I'm told it does). Fender doesn't sell their entire line through GC, only lower-line stuff and instruments others would deem seconds. The *nice* Fender stuff goes to dealers like Sweetwater and such, and is very difficult to find discounted nearly so much as the GC inventory. Kind of sucks the life out of free enterprise and any sense of competition, doesn't it... John (Message edited by 811952 on September 15, 2005) | ||
| jetbass79
Member Username: jetbass79 Post Number: 98 Registered: 2-2005 |
Fender doesn't sell their entire line through GC because not all of the entire line turns quickly enough for it to make sense for GC. GC is also a publically traded entity therefore, Fender does not own it. The public does as well as stockholding employees. Gibson owns Epiphone, owned 'em since '57. Isn't this supposed to be a thread about Alembic and the separation from GC and not about whom owns whom? | ||
| rockbassist
New Username: rockbassist Post Number: 9 Registered: 8-2005 |
Jet, you are right on all accounts. Gibson owns Epiphone, Fender does not own GC and this was supposed to be about the Alembic/GC relationship. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 489 Registered: 10-2003 |
John, It just helps explain why things are the way they are. I remember back in the mid '80s the Guitar Center in Hollywood having a dozen or so new Series Alembics at any given time. It is sad to me that now, instead of carrying the best tools of the trade they carry those with the best profit profile period. Fender controls GC. Fender controls Epiphone. Gibson doesn't own Epiphone, but they do own Kramer, Steinberger and Tobias (though Toby no longer seems to appear on Gibson's musicyo.com). GC exists to harvest the greatest profit it can by emulating the WalMart retail model and selling the absolute least expensive gear available. Stocking Alembic products doesn't fit that model. That's why it's so important to patronize your local music vendor (or one of the independents like Bass Central or Bass Northwest), even at higher cost, lest one day nobody can afford to sell Alembic. It really, truly, saddens me that this is what our economy and culture has done to the music industry in the United States. If not basses and guitars, then computers (look at Dell) or televisions or long-distance service or radio stations (think Clear Channel). It really is all about the money. Alembics, on the other hand, are all about the state of the art. John | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 490 Registered: 10-2003 |
Next time you talk to him or her, ask your friendly Fender factory rep about it and I bet you'll get an uncomfortable explanation about why you don't really want to know, followed by a "well, yes, we own many popular brands..." If you can convince me I'm wrong, I will freely admit it, but this information has come from too many legit sources (endorsees, vendors and reps) for me to not put some stock into. Having said that, it totally blew me away when first presented with the notion. It's kind of like cats and dogs living together...  John Edited to add that I posted what I posted because I think it's relevant to the discussion. I don't intend to p*55 anybody off, especially not fellow Alembicians... john (Message edited by 811952 on September 15, 2005) | ||
| dnburgess
Senior Member Username: dnburgess Post Number: 438 Registered: 1-2003 |
John F. "If you can convince me I'm wrong, I will freely admit it" If you are referring to GC's ownership - as previously pointed out, GC is publicly listed. There are only two shareholders with over 5% of the stock - both institutional fund managers. you can check it yourself by going to: http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/ Key in GTRC (the code for Guitar Centre) and then click on "Ownership" in the left menu bar. | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 605 Registered: 6-2002 |
Hm, I'm not steeped in knowledge of the stock market, but afaik not all stock is necessarily in the public domain, only the stock that gets traded. Not sure if all stock owners must be listed publicly. Couldn't it be that GC hires business resources from Fender Musical Instruments? | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2362 Registered: 5-2002 |
According to their history page, Epiphone is a division of Gibson. | ||
| dnburgess
Senior Member Username: dnburgess Post Number: 439 Registered: 1-2003 |
I don't want to labour the point - but GC is NOT owned by Fender. Trust me - I do this stuff for a living. Of course they have extensive commercial dealings with each other - as one would expect of two leading players at different parts of the value chain. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 491 Registered: 10-2003 |
David, Adriaan, John, Dave - I don't do this stuff for a living, so I trust what you guys have to say. I do know from personal experience that corporate strings are often far less than obvious for many a reason. The Epiphone thing may only be that Fender (or Fender people) own the manufacturing and distribution, or something like that, in which case what sounded clear and concise in my head wasn't clear or concise in my posting without me providing a context whose specifics I've gone hazy on. I once knew the details but I don't anymore, but I'm going to try to contact a person who definitely would know all of this as it relates to Fender later today (when said person is awake) and get whatever clarity that person will not protest me sharing online. In looking for a seemingly logical explanation to the music industry money trail, do keep in mind that Michael Jackson owned (still owns?) most of the Beatles' catalog and there is probably a reason why they don't sing "Happy Birthday" to you at Bennigan's. I'll post what I can when I can, which should be later this afternoon. This does all relate directly to why GC's business practices and Alembic instruments aren't a good match, but wasn't intended to hijack the thread. Remind me to never post when I'm tired and stressed out (wife left for Morocco yesterday on business and I'm Mister Mom). And Dave, it's abundantly clear that you never sleep... John Edited to add that I figured I'd catch heck for referencing Honda owning part of Harley Davidson. Anybody know if that's true? Simply a curiosity, so feel free to email me offline.. John (Message edited by 811952 on September 16, 2005) | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2364 Registered: 5-2002 |
LOL!!! John, I get plenty of sleep; but sometimes I wake up too early! And I look forward to your friend's report. I would imagine that Fender, being the giant that it is, has significant requirements in its contract with Guitar Center. And it may be the case that such requirements literally constitute a degree of "control" over Guitar Center's inventory. For instance, the contract may require a certain percentage of floor space be devoted to Fender stock, similar to how Coca-Cola's contracts with grocery stores require a certain percentage of shelf space for its products. A grocery store in the US that caters to the general population can ill afford to not carry Coca-Cola products and therefore has to accept their requirements. Similarly a mass market music store like Guitar Center has to carry Fender products and therefore has to meet Fender's requirements. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 667 Registered: 7-2004 |
As the old saying goes: "Don't believe anyting you hear and only half of what you see" Now everyone shake hands and go play with your Alembics! Bill, tgo | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 607 Registered: 6-2002 |
There was a story on Gibson forcing stores to pay for a rather large stock of instruments of Gibson's picking - take it or leave it, and regardless of the store size. Not sure how much truth there was to that. | ||
| rockbassist
New Username: rockbassist Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2005 |
With all due respect John, Fender does not own Epiphone, or any part of the distribution. Gibson owns Epiphone. Go to the Gibson website and check it out. The Epiphone Les Pauls even have the word Gibson on the truss rod cover on the headstock. GC sells products where there is a decent profit margin. The reality is, stores survive by selling low to moderately priced instruments to beginners and intermediate players and then selling to them again when they decide to trade up. Most players (there are exceptions) will never have the financial resources to afford a high end instrument. Most buy the brands they recognize based on what they see their idols use and what they see in ads. By the time a player is advanced enough to afford a high end instrument there is very little chance that they will be trading it. They usually hang to them much longer than intermediate players do. (Would you trade your Alembic?) Therefore there is little chance that a store like GC will see that buyer again. Trust me, I have worked in retail management at the store district and regional levels. Retailers sell what they can make money on and that's all. The average beginner and intermediate player has not heard of Alembic, Pedulla, Zon, etc. Therefore it's difficult for a retailer to move them. Now, open a beer, pick up your Alembic and GO HAVE SOME FUN! | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 493 Registered: 10-2003 |
Okay, my information is old. Fender was heavily invested in Musician's Friend, which GC bought five or six years ago when they decided to sell online. It is also *believed* that part of that deal gives Fender a great degree of control over what GC carries, which is a win-win situation for both. GC at that time was beginning to flounder due to a number of factors, a discussion of which can be found here: http://www.fool.com/dtrouble/1999/dtrouble990615.htm It looks like Musician's Friend was in deep doo as well... I haven't been able to reach anybody about Epiphone yet... John | ||
| smichaels
Junior Username: smichaels Post Number: 45 Registered: 6-2002 |
Epiphone has been owned by Gibson since the late 50's. They have handled every aspect of Epiphone's business since then - manufacturing, marketing, and distribution. (Message edited by smichaels on September 16, 2005) | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 668 Registered: 7-2004 |
The real problem is TPC - "The Phone Company". They own everything. If you don't believe me, rent "The President's Analyst" starring James Coburn. Also, Chevy owns Ford, Nissan owns Toyota and Honda, the U.S.A. owns Mexico, Canada, and a half interest in Nepal. Kelloggs owns Post, Coke owns Pepsi, and somewhere in the world a dog named Peabody owns a young boy named Sherman. This is all true, believe me. I heard it from my friend's neighbor's mailman's barber's mechanic's plumber. It has to be accurate! (nyuk, nyuk). Bill, tgo | ||
| keith_h
Intermediate Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 187 Registered: 2-2005 |
And they're all after our precious bodily fluids. Keith | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 494 Registered: 10-2003 |
The Epiphone story comes from manufacturing negotiations with a Korean company some years back, and ultimately didn't come to pass. My bad, which as you'll note I'm admitting. Other than that, yes Gibson owns Epiphone. Now I'm off to shed some of those pesky bodily fluids the aliens hold so precious... John | ||
| jetbass79
Member Username: jetbass79 Post Number: 99 Registered: 2-2005 |
My whole point in posting this thread was to find out from the source what caused the separation of Alembic and GC...I could care less whom controls or owns whom...I'm glad to be backed up though because if there's one thing I cannot tolerate it's lots of misinformation. But whatever...I am still waiting for the answer to my question and whenever the people who have created these fabulous instruments have some free time, I would like their input. I certainly would not want to take away from their busy work schedules, however. I'm a man of patience. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 497 Registered: 10-2003 |
John, If you want it from Mica and/or Susan, then I would recommend emailing them directly. The Alembic/GC discussion has come up several times in the past, and I don't recall them ever giving an answer more direct than the "our business models were different" sort of response. For legal reasons, this being their official corporate website, I can't imagine they would want to post the gnarly details (if there even are any) for the world to read in perpetuity via cached pages on Google. They are both extremely busy, but also extremely responsive to direct queries of all sorts. And it's just an awesome cool feeling to get an email from a Wickersham (and from you too, Val). As far as that goes, maybe directly contacting one of the old-timers off-list wouldn't be a bad idea either. Some of these guys (and gals) know very nearly all there is to know about things Alembic. I am not a fan of misinformation either, and the web is unfortunately mostly just that. The friendly and informed discussion is what makes this forum one of my most-visited sites, and I look forward to reading and participating in the Brain-share with you and everybody else until my eyes quit working... John | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 670 Registered: 7-2004 |
It occurs to me, given that Alembic is already able to sell every instrument they make and that all of us know the wait to have our axes built, Alembic just doesn't need GC. Bill, tgo | ||
| rockbassist
Junior Username: rockbassist Post Number: 11 Registered: 8-2005 |
John, I could be wrong in my assumption but I think the main reason that GC does not carry Alembic or any other high end bass or guitar is because of what I explained in my earlier posting. They make too much money on repeat business to beginners and intermediate players. Why tie up thousands of dollars in inventory that a very select few people will consider buying. GC does of course have a limited number of vintage instruments in every store but I believe that it is more for the so-called WOW factor. (Wow look at that 65 Jazz Bass, Wow look at that 59 Les Paul, etc). It's an interesting topic. I have a good firend who works for GC. I will see what I can find out. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 500 Registered: 10-2003 |
Kevin, I think we are (and have been) in complete agreement on that. Bill's post addresses it very succinctly from the other side. Neither of them need the other. Taking it a step further, neither of them could be what they are with the other involved. I would love to be able to walk into a GC (or any other store for that matter) and see a wall of examples of the full Alembic line (or at least one or two instruments), but recognize that would be like having a Bugatti or two at every Volkswagen dealer. Which would be waaay cool, but that's not my point. BTW, my sourcing for some of the statements made earlier consists of a former Epiphone employee, more than one former Gibson people, a former distributor rep (those people will tell you anything) and someone who has had intimate dealings with FMIC. So you can understand my trusting a lot of their information. They don't all know each other. Oh, and the "Honda owns part of HD" came from a "Top-Ten Reasons Why Other Riders Don't Wave" list, so I have no idea if it's true or not. Truth is usually stranger than fiction though. John | ||
| valvil
Moderator Username: valvil Post Number: 760 Registered: 7-2002 |
Hello John (jetbass), if you look up Danno's first post on September 14, on this thread, he's got the story right there. Valentino |
