| Author | Message | ||
| mtjam
Advanced Member Username: mtjam Post Number: 318 Registered: 11-2011 |
Although I've had a Series bass for a while, I tried running it in stereo at a gig for the first time this weekend. I ran my treble pickup into my Aguilar Tone Hammer 500, and my neck pickup into my Eden 1205. Each of the heads powered separate Aguilar SL 112 cabinets. To my ear, the sound I got was very trebly and lacking bottom end. Not satisfied with what I was hearing, I switched back to mono using the Aguilar gear only. Voila! I immediately heard the full, well-defined sound with plenty of punch that I love with my Series. Just wondering who else has tried stereo and decided that they prefer mono. Granted, I didn't spend a great deal of time tweaking my sound before starting the gig, so I'm sure operator error is to blame for my problem! What do you guys think? Was it my use of two different amp heads that created the issue? Would I have achieved better results by using a stereo power amp? I'm sure that many of you are getting a superb sound by running your basses in stereo, but that's not what I experienced. Any advice? | ||
| 5a_quilt_top
Senior Member Username: 5a_quilt_top Post Number: 549 Registered: 6-2012 |
I've been learning the nuances of the Series II electronics in a home practice situation prior to taking the bass to a rehearsal with others and I've found that it doesn't take much volume on the treble PU to cause it to become a bit overpowering. As such, I've been setting the bass PU at about 2/3 - 3/4 of max and the treble PU at no more than half of that (and frequently less) and then governing the overall volume of the blend with the master. This way the vast majority of the tone is generated by the bass PU and I use the treble PU sparingly to introduce a little "sparkle" which allows the tone to cut without diminishing any of the low end. IMO, the settings on your individual amps may also be contributing to the disparity you're experiencing - especially if the Aguilar is a bright amp. I've not yet begun to mess with the controls on either of my amps because I'm still learning how the individual controls on the bass impact the tone - so I find it best to contain the number of variables in play. In my case, the treble PU is currently being amplified by an amp primarily intended to amplify a jazz guitar (and EQ'd to do so), so that may be having an impact on my perceived prominence of the treble PU. My next experiment will be to simply switch the amps without changing any of the control settings and see what impact that has on the tone. | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4530 Registered: 6-2002 |
I've tried it a small number of times and like you I have not spent a lot of time tweaking my sound to get something special. So I have decided that it is something I could only see myself doing as an exception to the norm depending on the genre of music and the venue I was gigging at. I, like a few others here run through a stereo power amp and alembic pre-amps. I'm just guessing here but could it be possible that your two bass rigs are out of phase and causing the loss of bottom end? | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4531 Registered: 6-2002 |
I've tried it a small number of times and like you I have not spent a lot of time tweaking my sound to get something special. So I have decided that it is something I could only see myself doing as an exception to the norm depending on the genre of music and the venue I was gigging at. I, like a few others here run through a stereo power amp and alembic pre-amps. I'm just guessing here but could it be possible that your two bass rigs are out of phase and causing the loss of bottom end? | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 4271 Registered: 5-2009 |
Jazzyvee , Yes ! I agree . When I run stereo I also prefer to keep identical power stages in relation to the two pickups as you have detailed . " I'm just guessing here but could it be possible that your two bass rigs are out of phase and causing the loss of bottom end" Ditto ! Wolf | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 2239 Registered: 2-2005 |
I've dabbled with running my Series 1 and BB stereo. I used my 2X10 Carvin combo and extension cabinet for the bridge pickup and my two 2X10 Bag Ends for the neck pickup. The rigs were side by side. I didn't have any issues with not enough bass and thought it sounded fuller but that could be due to the additional speakers. Overall it wasn't worth it to me to run that way for live playing. Where I have liked using stereo is recording. It gives me more flexibility in the mixing the sound. Keith | ||
| jimmyj
Senior Member Username: jimmyj Post Number: 574 Registered: 8-2008 |
I used to run a completely stereo rig. An old Yamaha P2200 power amp driving 2-12" cabs for the bridge pickup and 2-15" cabs for the neck pickup. Super huge sound - which worked well for the guitar trio in small clubs situation I was doing at the time... Mostly just fun to stand in front of! But if the PA needed a send I would sum it all to mono. I would also suggest to Rob that the two rigs you tried were not in phase with each other and that's why it sounded like the bottom dropped out. Isn't the 1205 a stereo amp? Try it that way, separate inputs all the way to separate speakers. At least you'd find out if our theory is correct. Be careful though because you may LIKE it. Jimmy J | ||
| gtrguy
Senior Member Username: gtrguy Post Number: 885 Registered: 9-2004 |
I have owned a Gibson ES355 stereo guitar for decades. At first when I ran it through 2 amps, it seemed natural to try to get a great guitar sound out of one amp and then try to do the same thing with the 2nd one. However, this did not really work that well. I finally realized that to get one overall full sound, I had to go for two areas of the frequency spectrum that when combined would add up to a great overall sound. It was counter-intuitive since the amps did not sound all that great by themselves, but together they added up to more than the sum of the parts. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 4272 Registered: 5-2009 |
Jimmyj , Yes Sir , The Yamaha P 2200 power amps are swell ! I still have 4 of them in various configurations from Studio Monitor amps to Bass guitar rigs . I like them . They just keep pumping ! Jimmy I love your input , Thanks ! Wolf (Message edited by sonicus on June 15, 2015) | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 11793 Registered: 5-2002 |
My approach is somewhat different. I run stereo out of the power supply and into the two channels of the F-2B, and then mono out of the F-2B. Thus, each pickup's tone is tweaked further in its own channel to contribute to the overall tone. I always have both pickups on, so I'm adjusting for the overall tone, and not individual pickup tone. Further down the signal chain the signal gets split again by stereo effects, and then into two channels of the power amp and two matching speaker cabs. So the final output is, in a sense, stereo. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2043 Registered: 5-2002 |
Rob, I'm just guessing here, but I would be willing to bet that your speakers were out of phase due to the difference in the heads. Not every amp is polarity consistent. Op amp stages can throw the polarity off. I would suggest trying it again with the polarity flipped on one speaker or with two identical heads. Your description of the sounds seems like the classic description of a polarity problem. I've never had a stereo rig sound thin. | ||
| mtjam
Advanced Member Username: mtjam Post Number: 319 Registered: 11-2011 |
Thanks to everyone for the advice! I figured that being out of phase might be the issue. Maybe I'll try Jimmy's idea to run stereo into my 1205. I'm pretty sure Edwin has discussed use of a 1205 with a Series bass, although I seem to recall someone mentioning that such a setup is not the same as using a stereo power amp. Anyway, I'm having a lot of fun trying different amp and speaker configurations with my bass! | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4532 Registered: 6-2002 |
Seems like you are getting some good advice to help your experimentation with stereo. I'd love to get a chance to set up and try using a totally inappropriate big stereo rig one day with two high speaker count cabs on each pickup. Maybe if I get a few more big festival dates with Musical Youth I can be a diva with the backline spec. and give it a try. :-) | ||
| rjmsteel
Advanced Member Username: rjmsteel Post Number: 244 Registered: 7-2008 |
I run mine in Stereo a little unconventionally also. I (also) run stereo out of the power supply, then in/out each channel of the SF-2 (each channel per pickup). The signal is then sent into a small format Mackie mixer where I blend the channels together (as desired) with the pan pot. The main (and if used control room) outputs are then sent to separate amplifier heads/cabinets. I just adjust how much each side receives using my pickup volume controls on my Series (Sans Filters) Bass. Rich | ||
| 5a_quilt_top
Senior Member Username: 5a_quilt_top Post Number: 550 Registered: 6-2012 |
IMO David (gtrguy) is on the right track re: the blended signal being more than the sum of the parts. And Dave is also on the right track with using both PU's in tandem to adjust the overall tone. For my favorite blended stereo tones thus far, neither the bass PU tone or the treble PU tone is anything particularly noteworthy by itself - but when combined, the overall blended tone is very nice and full. Also, I tried swapping the amps I've been using to amplify my bass and treble PU's - sending the bass to the guitar amp and the treble to the bass amp. It was definitely different - and not in a good way. Had I heard that tone initially, I would have been reluctant to pursue stereo any further. So, the amps & cabs that are used for each PU do make a difference as does how much of each is introduced into the overall mix via the controls on the bass. | ||
| rustyg61
Senior Member Username: rustyg61 Post Number: 1694 Registered: 2-2011 |
My setup is similar to Davehouck's, I go stereo out of my DS-5R into separate channels on My F-2B so each pickup has it's own channel for EQ, but then I take the combined (mix) out of the F-2B into my SF-2 also set to mono with one channel for lows & one for mid/highs. The SF-2 enhances the overall sound of both pickups blended. I also run my mono SCSD through one channel of the F-2B, so this setup works with both basses. The output of the SF-2 goes to one channel on a QSC GX7 amp then into either an Accugroove Wedgie or El Whappo cabinet depending on the size of the venue. Giving each pickup it's own channel gives a pseudo stereo effect without having to haul 2 separate cabinets. I have gone full stereo with 2 cabinets & the sound is mind blowing, but I can get a really amazing sound with one cabinet too & use the same rig for my Series II & SCSD bass. Using a full stereo rig would require lots of adjustment when I switch to my SCSD, my current setup doesn't require any adjustment other than plugging in the 1/4" cable when I play the SCSD. As was mentioned earlier, I too do not use 100% volume on the bridge pickup. I use it to give me the edge I want to color the overall tone. Most of the time it is at 60 - 75% of the neck pickup level. | ||
| 5a_quilt_top
Senior Member Username: 5a_quilt_top Post Number: 570 Registered: 6-2012 |
I recently took Framboise to her first public rehearsal. Since it was going to be a low-volume event in someone's house, I elected keep it simple to go mono using my little AER Amp One combo. It sounded pretty darn good - with compliments on the bass tone from all involved. About half way through the session, I mentioned to the guitarist that the bass has stereo capability and he immediately requested a demonstration. The only amp available to accommodate the request was a 30 watt 2x12 Marshall Bluesbreaker tube-powered combo, so I ran the bass PU to the AER and the treble PU to the Marshall and hoped for the best. It sounded pretty darn good! Everyone remarked that the stereo bass sound was much fuller and more dynamic with the Marshall adding some crispness to the high end that allowed the bass tone to cut through the mix better than when in mono mode. In this case, the two amps in use were quite different, but through the use of the bass and treble volume and tone controls I was able to achieve a nice overall tonal blend. | ||
| smuprof
Advanced Member Username: smuprof Post Number: 251 Registered: 12-2003 |
So I've had a bit of fun searching for that "ultimate" tone, i.e. hearing all of the nuances possible from my SII. The rig (dubbed the fracking rig by my fellow Alembicians at the recent Dallas gathering) is true stereo all the way through the sub-woofers. The front end is an F2-B, which then runs through BBE's Maxcom (stereo compressor and sonic maximizer in one), and then into an ELF-1 (the original which is two independent channels and outputs for both highs and lows) with the upper frequencies going to a pair of Eden D210-XST cabinets (which are extremely efficient and good down to 30 Hz) and the lower frequencies going to a pair of Bag End S18s (the same cabinets the ELF-1 was tested with). The ELF sends only 100 Hz and below to the 18s, which allows the Eden cabinets to "loaf" without trying hard at 100 Hz and up. Two Mackie stereo power amps with the older, large toroidal transformers send about 300 watts @ 8 ohms each to the Edens and 600 watts @ 8 ohms each to the Bag Ends. So essentially each pick up has a bi-amped ELF system with 2 10s and the 18. (you could actually run two basses mono into each input in the F2-B and have two completely independent bi-amped bass rigs). But here's what's interesting: simply adjusting the relative volume controls on the power amps provides an amazing (to my ears) tonal palatte. In essence you're simply adjusting the "treble" and "bass" on each pick-up, but it's feels more like a "mix" than a trade-off in adjusting frequencies, i.e. everything is 100% - you just choose how much of each you want. And of course you can then "paint" each source to taste with the SII filters and the F2-B. Of course there are lots of variations possible with this rig. In addition to the two separate mono rigs, you can sum the subs and wind up with 2500 watts driving them, or run the entire thing mono for extra wattage in the high end as well, or go stereo with the Edens without the ELF rack, or just use a single Eden cabinet for a smaller rig. Disclaimer here: I am not dragging all of this around to play currently and don't know that I would other than for special occasions. While it's hard to imagine your Alembic sounding better, as others have noted, hearing it in full stereo is a special treat. | ||
| ed_zeppelin
New Username: ed_zeppelin Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2010 |
The lower the frequency, the more omnidirectional, which is why home systems usually have one subwoofer you can stick behind the couch. High frequencies are not only increasingly directional, but they define the individual characteristics of the instrument. If you filter out the upper harmonics, it's nearly impossible to distinguish between a flute and a violin playing the same notes, for instance. Bass frequencies provide the power, high frequencies define. That's why bass sounds odd in stereo until you get used to it. Add to that the fact that bass sound waves are very large (and we're usually pretty close to our amps) and unless you've got some kind of hairy monitoring going on, we're in precisely the wrong place to judge how our rigs actually sound to an audience. I have someone else play my bass while I set the sound on my amps, making a trip or two out into the hinterlands to find the "room boom," then swap places to fine tune the controls on the bass itself. Tom Dowd said that it's easier to find what sounds like crap and filter it out than to enhance the good stuff. Saves a lot of time, too. On a parametric EQ, jack the level and sweep through the frequencies, and the crap jumps right out, believe me. Then dial down the level until it goes away. I think of my Series 1 as two overlapping systems with individual controls, rather than "stereo," per se. Makes it a lot easier to visualize the sound when setting up. I rewired the 1/4" jack on my to mono, for gigs where I only need one amp, and to send a summed signal through a direct box into the board. I use the 5-pin for stereo, either through two amps or to two channels on the board (I know it sounds weird, but panning too hard yanks the balls right out of the bass.) Bass frequencies use over 90% of your amp's power, simply because it takes a lot of power to move a lot of air. The advantage is that you can pretty much set it and forget it. I run the bridge pickup (treble) into two small cabs on either side of the stage, on stands. (A Carvin Stagemate and its extension, 100 watts per cab.) The neck pickup goes into a Carvin 600-watt amp with 1-18 and 4-10 cabs. "Room boom" is generally in the 250-500k zone, because most of the instruments share that frequency range. It's the bassist's playground, because between the bass drum(s) and bass, it's where the band's overall "attack" comes from. Too much 250k and it gets muddy, though. Once I set up the bass (bridge pickup) to provide the "thump," I don't touch it. I hope some of this helps. Stereo is terrific, as long as you get used to the idea that onstage, you're in a lousy place to judge your own sound. Leave that knob alone, son. (Message edited by Ed_zeppelin on July 26, 2015) | ||
| mtjam
Advanced Member Username: mtjam Post Number: 332 Registered: 11-2011 |
You're definitely right about us being in a lousy place to judge our sound. I usually find myself standing no more than 3 feet in front of my amp while I'm performing, due to the small venues I often play. I do try to walk out farther sometimes to hear what I truly sound like at a distance. I have learned in the last few years the limitless ways to optimize bass sound while using Alembic basses. On a side note, I play with a few guys who think that they can set their sound for the PA and guitar in a practice room and that will apply anywhere we play (I know better!). Don't get me started on that... : ) I am continuing my Series stereo experiments, and I appreciate all of the advice I'm getting here! Thanks! | ||
| ed_zeppelin
New Username: ed_zeppelin Post Number: 5 Registered: 2-2010 |
>>>I play with a few guys who think that they can set their sound for the PA and guitar in a practice room and that will apply anywhere we play (I know better!)<<<< I know the symptoms well. I played with a guy who thought that buying a PA meant you knew everything about sound. He set the sliders on the graphic EQ in a nice "W" formation and wouldn't change it, no matter whether the gig was indoors or out, or the venue was large or small. I convinced a really good professional engineer to come to a gig and adjust the sound for us (on the theory that "anything is better than this") and engage the PA owner in conversation about it. End of problem. From then on, he let me do it, just because he didn't want to be embarrassed again. Dick Grove used to say that most untrained musicians are engaged in trying to hide what they DON'T know, which is especially true of self-taught guitarists and drummers. The simple truth is that for nearly all other instruments (horns, strings, percussion etc.) you start off learning to play as part of an ensemble, just by nature of learning to play the instrument. So you're used to playing together as a matter of course. It's like learning to speak a language, but someone who learns it on their own doesn't necessarily learn that people use that language to converse, and it's not about everybody screaming at once through 1,000 watt amps at a volume that could pulverize concrete. I'm classically trained on string bass, but hopefully nobody can tell. (Nokie Edwards of the Ventures gave me the best compliment I've ever had; "you count to four really well!" I'm thinking about having that carved on my gravestone.) When people are defensive about things like sound reinforcement, arranging or relative volume (boy, that's an issue unto itself, ain't it?), it's a lot easier to get flies with honey than with vinegar, as the saying goes. If you challenge them it makes them feel threatened, but if you educate them they feel included. As the old joke goes: Q: what's the best way to get a guitarist to turn their volume down? A: put sheet music in front of them! A good approach for getting someone to let go of their "master of sound" delusion is to get a real time analyzer (here's a free app: http://spectrumanalyzerapp.com/ ) and record a rehearsal directly off the board. Then use the RTA (those things cost us a grand back in the day) to adjust the settings, record the same songs and compare. "Doin' beats talkin'" as the old saying goes. The main point of this exercise isn't to teach him what sound looks like or how to run sound himself, it's to wrest control from them in the nicest possible way, and let you do it. Or invite an engineer to a gig. That works too.  Oh what the hell. That guitarist joke reminded me of this one: Q: how many bassists does it take to change a lightbulb? A: one! Five! One! Five! One! Five! One! Five! One! Five! ... | ||
| ed_zeppelin
New Username: ed_zeppelin Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2010 |
By the way, here's those Carvin Stagemate cabs I run my Series 1 bridge pickup into:  (That ain't me. It's just the only pic I could find of a Stagemate and extension cab on stands, to give an idea of the size.) Because the higher frequencies dont require nearly as much power and the higher the frequency the more directional the sound is, this - and a big, nasty amp for the neck pickup - is all I need to "top off" the full potential of the Series sound. (Plus, it's battery powered and has built-in 4-channel mixer with switchable digital effects.)  | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 1548 Registered: 1-2005 |
This has been a great thread - lots of ideas, information & inspiration! I fantasize about it sometimes, but haven't tried it yet. Partly because of the setup time - during rehearsal I would set up a portable recording rig in addition to my rig, and at the only 2 live shows we played, the situation was rushed and "SIMPLE IS BEST" seemed the best way to go. Actually, I also had my Moog Taurus 3 bass pedals to set up too. Another obstacle for me is: I prefer to always play with a compressor running, as well as other effects (distortion, octave & volume boost being the main ones). If I were to go stereo, then either one channel would have to be clean, or set up two effects chains. Another issue is, I'm not sure having the two pickups run separately is the best solution for me. It depends on the instrument in question. If instruments are going to be switched then that's an issue too. Ultimately, mono gives me the most flexibility. HOWEVER, I still fantasize about trying it with my GK MB-112 II for the low end and Phil Jones Bass Suitcase (w/4 5" speakers) for the high end. The bass would either be my 5-string Stanley Clarke Signature Squared or my Guild M-85 II when it is finally Alembicized. I sometimes think about going through my F-2B & then SF-2, then into the amps, using the SF-2 on low pass through the GK, relegating it to just lows below a certain frequency, and the other channel high pass in the other direction - is it wasteful to use the SF-2 simply as a crossover? I'm sure I could get away without it, simply use the graphic EQ on the PJB if there were any issues. OK, you have me convinced, one of these days I'm going to give it a try! Maybe I could get it together before the upcoming NorCal Gathering... (Message edited by hieronymous on July 28, 2015) |
