| Author | Message | ||
| mtjam
Advanced Member Username: mtjam Post Number: 327 Registered: 11-2011 |
Musician's Friend is running a sale on the Crown Drivecore XLS Power Amp as their "Stupid Deal of the Day" today, so I thought the time was right to try a preamp/power amp setup. In the past, I have run my F1-X into the Effects return on my Aguilar Tone Hammer or Eden 1205 with great results. Now that I will be getting a power amp, I am hoping that I can get advice on the best way to setup my new rig. I plan to run an 8-ohm cabinet from each channel of the XLS1000. What is the best way to connect my F1-X to the power amp? I know a few people have posted about using these Crown Drivecore amps, so I thought I would turn to the experts! I am also intrigued by Jimmy's ideas of plugging a series bass directly into a power amp. Any advice on how I should make my connections? Despite playing bass for many years, I've never had a pre/power amp rig. Therefore, I appreciate any advice I can get in achieving the best results from those who continue to search for the sound. Thanks! | ||
| edwardofhuncote
Senior Member Username: edwardofhuncote Post Number: 479 Registered: 6-2014 |
I'm watching too... this may be where my journey toward "clean" gain ends. | ||
| rv_bass
Member Username: rv_bass Post Number: 55 Registered: 8-2014 |
The comments by Rusty and Keith in the link below may help with your set up. Although the power amp in that discussion is a QSC, the jumper between the two channels is likely the same process. http://alembic.com/club/messages/393/207982.html?1429926634 | ||
| mtjam
Advanced Member Username: mtjam Post Number: 328 Registered: 11-2011 |
Thanks for providing a link to that thread. I stumbled upon it last night. I would imagine connecting to my Crown power amp would be the same as your QSC. I just want to make sure so I don't blow anything up! How do you like your rig now that you got it set up? | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 11882 Registered: 5-2002 |
Greg; I have an F-1X and a power amp (several that I eventually plan to sell) here at the house. The next time you are in this area, you are welcome to stop by and play through them. (Would like to see your band as well, if you're playing nearby.) Rob; I just looked through the owner's manual for your power amp, and it looks like there is not a normal mono mode, where you plug a mono signal into channel one and have the signal come out through both outputs. So it looks like the jumper solution that Rob links to might be the solution. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 11883 Registered: 5-2002 |
After reading this, I'm thinking maybe the best thing is to call Crown and ask or send an email. (574) 294-8000 support@crownaudio.com | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 2251 Registered: 2-2005 |
From what I'm reading in the manual the XLR and 1/4" inputs on each channel are in parallel. You should be able to jumper one channel to the other using the spare input jack. Keith | ||
| edwardofhuncote
Senior Member Username: edwardofhuncote Post Number: 480 Registered: 6-2014 |
Thanks Dave, I 'preciate the offer! For sure we'll have to do a Western N.C. meet-up sometime. =) There's at least one gig with my Cousin over between Boone/Blowing Rock. That wouldn't be too much of a hop over your way... that's happening up in September sometime. Ironically, I'm gonna' be in Statesville next weekend, and hoping to meet-up with Jimmy J (before the JT concert) in Greensboro the night before. I've been reading some about this pre/power amp alternative idea on another forum too, pros/cons, etc, and it sounds like the natural evolution of where I seem to be headed. Zero experience here, total noob... all's I know right now is Mesa Walkabout bass heads and Scout cabs, which is getting the job done. Still... it could it be *more* better? | ||
| mtjam
Advanced Member Username: mtjam Post Number: 330 Registered: 11-2011 |
My amp has shipped, so the experiment will begin next week. Tonight I'll be playing playing my Series bass through my Acoustic 370 and Greenboy Audio 215. It's great to have choices! Thanks for the advice! Anyone else with tips please chime in. Still want to try connecting my bass directly to the power amp, too... | ||
| sonofa_lembic
Member Username: sonofa_lembic Post Number: 82 Registered: 5-2014 |
Going direct to the amp, you will lose the wonderful tube tone the F1X provides. I never run my stereo amps in stereo. I bridge them to get the most power, and from the mono out, I run 8 ohm or even 4 ohm cabinets in series to also increase the power of the amp. I have been using Carvin DCM3000L amps for the past few years, and find them to be the best I have ever used. ( I know, I too said I would never own a Carvin product). I have had Trace Elliot RA 500s, SWR 800s, CrownXLSs, QSCs, etc. The Carvin is faster, more powerful, runs cooler (even at 2 ohms), weighs only 14 pounds, and is affordable. I have used them on the road, dropped them, and generally put them through hell, and they are absolutely reliable and have never failed in any way. The deal with the Carvin is you want to make sure you are using the 3000 or the 3800 to insure you have one of their class A/B power amps. Digital stuff is not even close to the same, and they make plenty of models that look the same, but are not class A/B. That ultra quick reacting solid state amp with the smoothness of an F1X or F2B is just perfection. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2080 Registered: 5-2002 |
While the F1X has a tube in it, it's not really tubey, in terms of its tone. The tube is a buffer and the gain comes from a solid state device. That said, it is an incredibly delicious sound. A fantastic preamp. What we associate with tube tone may not be due to the tube. As far as "digital" amps go, I find the Peavey IPR 3000 to be the equal of any power amp I've used. Including Crest lead sleds and McIntosh. It weighs 8 lbs. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 6172 Registered: 7-2004 |
I recently switched my rig (for guitar) to an F-2B into a Carvin DCM200L. Sounds great with little weight (only 4 lbs.!) I've also used an old Carvin power amp for the monitors in my P.A. (which are also Carvin) for many years without any problems. Carvin gives you a lot of bang for the buck. Bill, tgo | ||
| rv_bass
Member Username: rv_bass Post Number: 57 Registered: 8-2014 |
Greg, in response to your question above; I like my F-1X/QSC set up. Right now I use it with an Orion bass and can dial in a smooth clear tone that remains consistent at higher volumes (when needed). Dave, thanks for looking into the QSC manual and confirming the jumper solution for the QSC set up. I'm having a bass modified right now that will have a mono/stereo switch, so I purchased a second F-1X that I will incorporate when I want to use stereo mode. I look forward to seeing how that sounds. Greg, let us know how your new rig works out when you get it set up! Rob | ||
| mtjam
Advanced Member Username: mtjam Post Number: 334 Registered: 11-2011 |
Edwin, I've come close to ordering one of those Peavey IPR amps (on more than one occasion) based on your recommendations! However, when I saw MF had the Crowns on blowout last week I decided to try one. I'm very satisfied with my Aguilar, Eden, and Acoustic rigs, but I thought I would add another choice to my arsenal. Maybe the IPR will be a future choice. Of course, being a true disciple of Phil and the Dead, McIntosh would be my Holy Grail power amp, but the weight and cost will probably put me out of the running for one of those! | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2088 Registered: 5-2002 |
McIntosh does sound great, but the weight is a real killer, especially if you get into the 2300, 2500, 2600 territory, which is where you need to be for bass. A Crest CA9 is also a great option if you want to test your spinal fortitude. Let us know how the Crown works out! I do have to say that I wouldn't mind if the Peavey had more options when it comes to high pass filters, although at this point, the Grace Design Felix takes care of that. | ||
| carsbybigd
Junior Username: carsbybigd Post Number: 12 Registered: 8-2014 |
I used to use the XLS 1000 ,but have since upgraded to the XLS 2000. More power and headroom. I play through 2 Mesa 4X10"s and 2 GK RBH 115's.  | ||
| mtjam
Advanced Member Username: mtjam Post Number: 336 Registered: 11-2011 |
The Crown power amp has been working great for me! I have used it on every gig since receiving it, and I have been satisfied with the results. I've been running it bridged, with my F1-X connected from the full range jack to Channel 1 of the XLS1000. I am running my Greenboy Audio 215 from my power amp. At my last gig, I overheard my drummer say, "Man, that rig is intimidating!" Even though the cabinet with rack on top stands pretty tall, I do know how to work the volume knob to fit the needs of each gig! I just got an XLR to TRS jumper cable to try using both channels of the power amp, as mentioned in one of the previous posts in this thread, so I can hear what that sounds like. On a side note, I pulled out an old Carvin power amp that has been in my shed for years just to see if it worked. It does work, and very well! It's a HTM760M (I believe). I connected my Series basses directly to the power amp, and I really like the clear, powerful sound I get. I don't know if I will use that setup at gigs, but I've been experimenting with it at home. I am interested in hearing more from those of you who use such a setup, so I will begin a new thread for that subject! | ||
| enzo
Senior Member Username: enzo Post Number: 511 Registered: 4-2009 |
Good to know Rob, thanks for the info, was thinking to that power amp as well, although I don't need that much power. | ||
| jbybj
Advanced Member Username: jbybj Post Number: 387 Registered: 6-2006 |
you will always need more power than you think. | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4628 Registered: 6-2002 |
And usually less volume that you think too especially if you can persuade the band of that too. | ||
| sonofa_lembic
Member Username: sonofa_lembic Post Number: 91 Registered: 5-2014 |
More power, less volume…..Amen! | ||
| edwardofhuncote
Senior Member Username: edwardofhuncote Post Number: 540 Registered: 6-2014 |
Well, I picked up a nice-condition F-1X secondhand... I'm going to give this tube-pre/power-amp setup a try. Going to play around with it using my Walkabout just set flat for a while, and shop a deal on a power amp later. One thing I'm just now realizing with Alembics is, once you "get" that stand-alone pure, natural sound, it's hard to go back. I never really thought my rig had a "weakness" per se... heck, it sounds pretty darn good, and when pushed will efficiently dislodge kidney stones - but it doesn't feel like it's allowing access to the full potential of my bass. Does that make any sense? | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 2428 Registered: 9-2002 |
EofH, what you're hearing is that most 'bass' amps most of us are used to (in, say, the 100 to 400 watt range) are going to skimp when it comes to pushing the fundamentals. On the other hand, the preamp/power amp rig (built with a sufficiently large power amp, remember, 'overkill' really doesn't apply here) will simply push those 30 and 40hz foundations far, far more easily than most 'bass' amps. This is the classic example of 'great big (power) amp turned up to 2'. While the idea of a 1000 watt or better bass stack sounds like a little much, at the levels you actually play at, it's very comfortably within its' best performance, as opposed to showing up on the gig and trying to keep up with the nitwit with his Marshall half-stack, and your rig is hanging on for dear life and crapping out. It's not the idea of roasting the stage, but having quality tone at your usual levels as you've gained so much headroom. The result of this sudden lack of distortion can be liberating for some, and 'too dry' for others. It all depends on your ears, and what's upstream of the power amp. But regardless, it's a real eye-opener the first time you hear those open E's, etc., so effortlessly clear. All of this really re-enforces when Mica reminds that 'your instrument' is really the whole thing: (Bass+amplification+speakers) + player. Joey | ||
| sonofa_lembic
Member Username: sonofa_lembic Post Number: 92 Registered: 5-2014 |
E of H, The phenomenon you are talking about, where you feel that anything interfering with the pure signal of the bass actually limits the tone potential, is something that becomes very obvious to the user when recording. I spent the last 37 years as a session musician, and I always noticed that my Alembics had the best tone when recorded direct. I always liked the Countryman direct boxes, and the Alembic straight into the board was always a more expansive tonal range than when I played live through a rig. For the first 2/3 of my musical career, this was certainly the case, but as amplification has improved, and I figured out the secret to great tone with my F1X or F2B, there is certainly less of a dichotomy these days. The key for me is a ton of fast solid state power, and the use of a properly maintained Alembic preamp. Let me explain "properly maintained". Years ago, I remember arguing with Ron Wickersham about a perceived difference in tone between the F2B and F1X. He kept saying there simply should not be any difference in the tone between the two, but I was absolutely sure of what I was hearing. None of this was resolved for many years, until performing maintenance on one of my F1X preamps. I had two of them, and could really hear a difference between them. One simply did not have the clarity on the top end, and there was a marked lack of fullness in the low end. This was exactly the issue I had noticed between F2Bs and F1Xs years prior. The difference was it was now between two F1Xs. After an exhausting search for the issue, Ron suggested I clean the corrosion of the mono output jack. Apparently this jack design will corrode slightly where it combines the stereo signals, and this can lead to a diminished signal and thus loss of clarity. One minute and a little emery cloth later, my faulty F1X was sounding as great as my other one, and to my surprise, exactly like my F2B! So, Ron was right in that they should sound identical, but I was right in that there was a marked difference in the two particular preamps I was comparing due to the corroded output jack. My advise to all of you out there who think your bass sounds limited by your use of an Alembic preamp, clean your output jack connections! | ||
| edwardofhuncote
Senior Member Username: edwardofhuncote Post Number: 544 Registered: 6-2014 |
Thanks for the advice fellas. It really does help sorting these things out when you've got some firsthand experience to work from. =) I do like the relatively simple principle of a pre-amp/power-amp/speaker as a bass rig. The The F-1X should be all the adjustment I need, so it's only the matter of amplifying *that*. I'm hoping my issue with the Walkabout is directly related to the preamp. Thing is, that sound is really specific to that amp... I mean, there's a whole following of players that have tried in vain to replicate the Walkabout front-end into an amp with more clean headroom. At some point, I seem to have realized the tone almost everyone else was looking for was not what I wanted... I like the sound of my bass amplified, not the tone of my bass amp's input pre-amp section. I swear it's not a swipe at the Walkabout - it's a great little amp. Heck, I have two of them, and plan to always have one. There's a couple possibilities in our local Craigslist within 10 minutes of here. a Crown XLS 2500, and a QSC GX5, either of which I think can be had in the $200-$250 range. I need to do some more reading first, so I don't end up frying an incredible rig because I didn't have a clue how to use it. :hiding: | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 1928 Registered: 10-2006 |
A word if I may: Yamaha. Peter (who wouldn't spend his money, or yours, on any other power amp. Well, except mebbe MacIntosh) | ||
| edwardofhuncote
Senior Member Username: edwardofhuncote Post Number: 547 Registered: 6-2014 |
Any particular model Yamaha Coz? I'm just sniffing around right now, trying to get a feel for what I need. Up for discussion - what features should be considered essential for ease of use with an F-1X, yet get the maximum utilization? | ||
| hammer
Senior Member Username: hammer Post Number: 737 Registered: 9-2009 |
I'll second Peter on the Yamaha. I've been using the P2500 and P5000S which in stereo or bridged have plenty of power. They're not light at about 25-30 lbs. but they're not MacIntosh either. Got each slightly used for $200-250. Ultra-reliable, clean sound. They work extremely well with an F1-X and SF-2. | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 1931 Registered: 10-2006 |
"Any particular model Yamaha Coz?" How much loud (and/or headroom) do you want? The excellent P series Brian mentions (They & their '70s-'80s predecessors are what I'm familiar with) come in 250, 350, 500, and 700w/channel into 8 ohms;. Some of their other lines go to at least 1350w/side. Pure, clean reproduction & the only brand that's never crapped out on me mid-gig. Peter | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 4436 Registered: 5-2009 |
I actually still have a few P2200'S doing various tasks. I get a about a nice 24O Watts RMS @ 8 OHMS per channel from them . They are convection cooled ( no fan) and have earned the moniker of " Poor Mans , Bryston 4B-ST " in some studio circles . They can be found for about $ 200-$400 . http://legendaryamps.com/latestpro.html | ||
| hammer
Senior Member Username: hammer Post Number: 738 Registered: 9-2009 |
The Yamaha P2500S is 250 watts stereo and 620 watts bridged into 8 Ohms, while the P5000S is 500 watts stereo and 1400 watts bridged. The latter was purchased for playing in a band that had two guitarists, keyboards, and 4 horns and provided plenty of sound and headroom. The top of the line P7000S is rated at 750 and 1900 watts. Personally, I love the Yamaha amps, but there are people here who are just are just as passionate about the QSC line. | ||
| edwardofhuncote
Senior Member Username: edwardofhuncote Post Number: 550 Registered: 6-2014 |
My Walkabout with it's recommended 4 ohm minimum load is 300w... most of which isn't used to drive a single Scout 12 or 15. I found that two Scout 12's spreads that out a little better. Like Joey said above, it's not about "overkill" it's about clean headroom. I don't know... maybe double what power I currently have, and put it out through some neutral sounding cabs. It's not really more volume I'm after here, (though more available is fine), it's volume without fuzzy-sounding mids. I've tried different speakers, in different cabs and same cabs, so I gotta' think it's a trait inherent to the Walkabout. I think every other bass player in the known universe except me likes that voice, and the only cure I have found is to roll off those low-mids using the Walkabout's onboard parametric equalizer. Which kinda' guts your "felt" output when 5 dB of 340 hz is missing. Maybe I'm barking up a lightpole instead of a tree here... but I think a less-is-more approach with a simple bass to pre-amp to power-amp to speakers is going to get me closer. It's just so hard to describe what *that* is. | ||
| edwardofhuncote
Senior Member Username: edwardofhuncote Post Number: 551 Registered: 6-2014 |
FWIW, the F-1X came yesterday but I wasn't home to sign for it... I'll pick it up at the Post Office this evening, and maybe have some time to play with it later tonight. Probably tomorrow. Meantime I'll be reading up on it. =) I'm told sending it to the effects return is the closest I can get to simulating running it to a power amp... may try it in front of the input too, but if what I think is true, it won't help with the fuzzies. | ||
| mario_farufyno
Senior Member Username: mario_farufyno Post Number: 1104 Registered: 9-2008 |
wow, I´ve always learn lots from you guys, thanks! | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2101 Registered: 5-2002 |
My impression is that Mesa rigs are always on warmer and fuzzier side of things and it's a sound built in to the gear because of their heritage of tube amps. I get the same issue with Ampeg gear. Any PA style power amp will be an improvement. I used to be a big believer in the big and heavy amps (Crest CA9 is a great one, but way too heavy). Now I am enjoying (as most know) the Peavey IPR 3000. 8 lbs and lots of power (I don't trust the specs enough to quote them, but it's plenty) and very nice deep, clean, bass. The Yamahas are very nice indeed, but I wouldn't go with them unless you are getting one with at least 500 wpc. What you want is clean headroom and lots of it. My back up amp is a QSC CX1202V. It's an install 70v amp I've modified for bass rig use. Ridiculous amounts of clean power (2200 watts at full bandwidth bridged into 8 ohms). What features do you need in a power amp? Aside from the right connectors, there are some that are useful, such as a high pass filter and limiters. The amps with DSP built in can be quite useful and versatile. I wasn't that taken with the Crown versions. In fact, I'm not a huge fan of Crown, but I don't hate them. | ||
| edwardofhuncote
Senior Member Username: edwardofhuncote Post Number: 553 Registered: 6-2014 |
I've been playing with this F-1X... Only had a couple hours to mess with it, and already it's turned into another one of those, "how did I get by for so long without this piece of gear?" Using my Persuader, I first tried the full-range output to the Walkabout effects return, which basically bypasses everything on the front of the head except the power switch. I also tried taking the full-range output straight to to amp's input jack, with less satisfaction than the effects return. Then I got adventurous and used the low-pass x-over with another bass... I LIKE IT! More later... (Message edited by edwardofhuncote on August 25, 2015) | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2102 Registered: 5-2002 |
The fun begins! With regard to an audible difference between the F1X and F2B, I found that there is one which I attributed to the F1X having a solid state based gain path. The tube is a buffer. The F2B is all tube. I liked the F1X better, in terms of the tone and in terms of versatility. But I needed a stereo preamp, so that's the one that stayed. I experimented with tubes up and down and back and forth, as well as making sure everything was in tip top shape in both units in order to be sure that I was giving them each a fair shot. Neither is a slouch when it comes to tone. Both sound awesome. I always found it interesting when someone would love my tone and then get a non-Alembic tube pre thinking it would deliver the same sound. Demeter, etc., just don't have that tone. The only one that is in the same ballpark for me is the SMS Classic Tube Pre, which is Brad Sarno's homage to the Alembic work on the Fender preamp coupled with some things he learned designing preamps for pedal steel. It's a great time to be a bass player! | ||
| edwardofhuncote
New Username: edwardofhuncote Post Number: 6 Registered: 6-2014 |
I've had almost a week to play with this setup, just running the F-1X into the effects return of the Mesa Walkabout I usually use, and I'm SOLD. Love it... definitely want to build a power-amp rig in the near future, rack up this F-1X with it, and find some cabs capable of handling the extra power. Those Mesa Scout cabs are great when used for their purpose, but they'll never do long term if I start pushing them with 500w. A couple observations... using the low-pass output with my Alembic seem kinda' redundant, I like the full-range much better, and besides that, my bass already has a low pass filter on it. =) That said, I *really* like using the low-pass output of F-1X with a couple other (non-Alembic) basses. It's the next best thing to Alembi-cizing them. Wow, what a difference! At this juncture, I have to pause and thank you fellas who counseled me to "forsake not the filter". Now, dumb question... what's the purpose of the high-pass/crossover output? Stereo amping? What's it usually intended for? | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2107 Registered: 5-2002 |
Actually, both those outputs are designed to be used in conjunction with each other as an active crossover in a biamp situation. Using the filters creatively as tone shaping tools was not part of the primary intention, but is a cool idea. Just be aware that the tone coming out of the DI will not have the same tone shaping. But, don't let that discourage you from experimenting. Sometimes the coolest discoveries are when we repurpose tools. If you like that tone, just put a DI in between the low pass out and your amp. Carry on! Edwin | ||
| elwoodblue
Senior Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 1682 Registered: 6-2002 |
The high and low outputs have matching phase (meant to be used together). It's shifted not quite 180 degrees(maybe 165 averaged) from the full range output. Keep that in mind as you explore. | ||
| edwardofhuncote
Junior Username: edwardofhuncote Post Number: 12 Registered: 6-2014 |
Got an "open-box" deal from MF on a Crown XLS 2000 to pair up with this F-1X... should be here later this week. I'm guessing my next adventure is going to be shopping for suitable cabs. | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 2444 Registered: 9-2002 |
Wolf, as a fellow fan of the old P-series Yamaha amps (we once salvaged a rack of them from a total-loss fire damaged club: Cleaned them out and up, and 4 out of 5 still ran like a train!!), while cruising thru Yamaha's Commercial Sound website, well, we're in trouble: http://yamahacommercialaudiosystems.com/product_detail.php?prodID=1039 . . . . don't even look at the pics of the innards of this beast. Separate power supplies, dual fans, 2-ohms, oh my. At LEAST they left off the VU meters . . . . Joey | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 4479 Registered: 5-2009 |
Joey , Yes , as you know I ran in to a few of the P2200's over the years that I picked up and still use daily. One of them had been stored under a house in Marin , California for years .I took some bench precautions powering it back to life and it was still quite swell . Those things are really tuff ! That new line that you posted is likely to become another marathon winner like the P2200's. Years ago I thought big VU meters were the BEES KNEES on an amp, but that has changed for me as well ( except on a nice old vintage higher end mixing board ) Thanks for posting the link , I like to keep aware of the new stuff as well . Wolf | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 1941 Registered: 10-2006 |
P-Series brethren, let us rejoice! Peter (Who wants the VUs, demmit!) | ||
| edwardofhuncote
Junior Username: edwardofhuncote Post Number: 29 Registered: 6-2014 |
Hey Fellas, any thoughts about these cabs? http://avatarspeakers.com/home/product/sb126/ I've been kinda' shopping around for some cabs capable of handling the higher output of this Crown XLS 2000, and ran across a pair of lightly used ones, loaded with the 500w/8ohm model speakers, and with the upgraded 1.6k crossover. The cabinets are also mirrored. (meaning baffled opposite each other, whatever that means) They look to be made very well, from a construction standpoint, but I've never tried any. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 4509 Registered: 5-2009 |
Gregory, I have done business with Avatar recently and have been very happy with how the business was conducted. I recently purchased 8 ( eight) Faital NEO 10PR300 ten inch 16 ohm speakers from them to replace the OEM SWR units in my four SWR Goliath JR cabinets. I am very happy with the results. Wolf | ||
| edwardofhuncote
Junior Username: edwardofhuncote Post Number: 32 Registered: 6-2014 |
I went ahead and bought these two cabs... based on new price, it was a good enough deal that I shouldn't have much trouble flipping them locally if they don't work out. They should be here later this week, maybe in time for next weekends gigs. =) Reckon I'll need a little advice on the best way to connect all this... F-1X to power amp, and then out to speakers. I see where some of you have used a TRS to XLR cable getting from pre-amp to power-amp. Since these cabs come with both Speakon and 1/4' connections, I guess the choice is mine to make on that. | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 1950 Registered: 10-2006 |
"Reckon I'll need a little advice on the best way to connect all this" I've always found wires work best...... (nyuk nyuk) Peter (Who ofttimes just cannot help himself) | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 2466 Registered: 9-2002 |
Gregory, I made just a quick look at the XLS manual online, and it looks simple enough: These amps don't do the trick where you can plug into one channel and it feeds into both. So . . . I'd make sure the crossover is turned off in the XLS, and I'll leave the onboard compression up to you. You're running two 8-ohm cabs which makes a 4-ohm load, so it's simple. Put the XLS in bridge mode (which it conveniently operates at both 8- and 4-ohms, nice). Come out of the full range output on the F1X into the channel it asks for in Bridge mode ( I don't remember . . . . ), then out of the amp into one cab, and daisy into the second from the first. Short 1/4" guitar or signal cable from pre to amp, and then whatever you want to use for the speakers. As always in a rack, the shorter the better, and this eliminates worrying about balanced / unbalanced, and you want stout speaker cables. Done. Of course, you'll have the manuals and the goods in front of you so be sure and double check me, but just glancing at the available features and jacks, this seemed to be the way. And as always with a power amp rig, always turn the power amp down at power-up and power-down until you get a feel for the relative levels between axe, preamp, and power amp. Joey | ||
| edwardofhuncote
Junior Username: edwardofhuncote Post Number: 46 Registered: 6-2014 |
Thanks Joey, I was hoping to get a chance to play with it some this weekend, have gigs tonight, tomorrow, and Sunday, but if we get the amount of rain here they're talking about, I'm guessing two of the three gigs will be cancelled, and the wedding reception truncated. Ummm, suppose I wanted to use both the low-pass and high x-over outputs (rather than the full-range output) on the F-1X? Send one to each input on the amp? Sorry to be so inept... I know my way around the woodshop but am a dunce when it comes to this kind of stuff. | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 2469 Registered: 9-2002 |
Greg, the low- and high-pass outs are for bi-amping and driving those signals thru two (bi- . . .) amps, or the two sides of a single power amp, into cabinets for lows and cabinets for highs. This sort of thing came about in the old days once people began to realize that Voice of the Theaters and Shure VocalMasters could NOT keep up with louder and louder bands in bigger and bigger venues, especially when back then a BIG power amp was 200 or 300 watts a side and the passive crossovers of the day would distort much more easily in the cabs. Having to mic kick drums and bass REALLY drove this. So we'd take an active crossover of some sort, run the lo-pass thru 15' or 18's with as much juice as we could get because those lows are what takes diesel-strength power to push, and run a small conventional cab or horn bins for the top, which typically took maybe 1/3 the power to be as loud. Lot of rigs with DC300's for bass and D75's for highs. It just takes more juice to push those long bass wavelengths. Bass players jumped on this back in the day. IF you weren't satisified with a big Acoustic or SVT, then you bought a bass preamp with or without a crossover, a power amp and a separate crossover if required, and lots of guys would push a folded horn or front loaded 18 or 15 for lows and 10's or 12's or 15's for highs. Then you just added as many power amps as needed and off you went. The cigar-box-sized, 1000 watt amps and Neo-cabs we have today were only dreams in the 70's. Think about the two cabs you're buying. A crossover circuit card inside those cabinets is dividing the incoming speaker wattage into the low-pass (the bass part of the signal) into the 12" woofer. The remaining mids and highs are being sent to that 6" speaker. This circuit card inside the cab is general called a 'passive' crossover, in that it's a fixed-value circuit. On the F1X, the crossover is doing the same function, but since there are variable controls (the crossover frequency, and the hi freq level), this would be an 'active' crossover, inasmuch as you have control over some of the parameters. If you think about, say, a good computer audio system or the surround sound-type television rig, we see a subwoofer for the lows and smaller cabs for the highs. This would be your basic '2-way' system where those dedicated cabinets split the sound into two into specific cabinets for their load. So, on the F1X, for example, say you set the crossover on the front panel for 150hz. At the back panel, the signal out of the lo-pass would only be 150hz and down and the hi-pass would be signal only from 150hz and up. Commercial sound often begins this way, with flying concert sytems even tri- and quad- amped systems. With the amp and cabinets you're getting this won't work for bi-amping: The Avatars have a full-range-only input. In other words, the inputs on the cabs would be marked hi-pass and lo-pass where you would be plugging those same signals from the F1X into each side of the XLS and passing thru to those inputs on the cabs. One side of the XLS would drive the 12's and the other side would drive the 6's, IF the inputs on the Avatars allowed for this. They don't. The passive vs. direct crossover argument has raged for years, and in the good cases, passives can be fine: Acme's range of cabs work just fine, for instance. Generally, for most commercial sound, active crossovers rule. To hear the difference vs. the full-range operation I mapped out previously, plug your bass into the F1X, and set the front panel crossover at 150hz. Take the lo-pass out of the F1x and run into Ch A of the XLS(reset for normal stereo operation) and hook one Avatar speaker to that channel. Repeat with the hi-pass into the XLS ChB and into the other Avatar. Again, be SURE the crossover function in the XLS is turned OFF, or this will get REAL confusing ! The 'volume' knob on the F1X will control both of the outputs. Do this a low or medium volume one channel at a time only and you'll hear the division immediately: The ChA tone will be like organ pedals or the dead-est tape wounds you ever heard, and ChB will sound like an AM radio. Combine them and you'll begin to get the idea. A lot of times, in a biamp rig, most of your tone is just where the crossover happens, and how much high end you add or subtract volume-wise: This is why the F1X smartly includes that 'HF Level' control, you just dial in as much hi-pass you want to suit. Full-range cabs like you have are obviously not the preferred way to go for a bi-amp rig. However, since you're almost there, it would be easy enough to add a single 15 Avatar (15 only, no hi-driver in the cab) and use it for the lo-pass and the 12 cab you have for the hi-pass. Simple. For the type of gigs you mention, the Avatars full range should work fine. And later, if you join a metal band, you can just expand out from there ! I ran bi-amped rigs once or twice back in the day, and for LOUD stuff it was great, not so hot at reasonable levels. I always wanted to try ELF, but probably won't get a round too-it. Wolf or anybody else out there, what did I miss? Joey (Message edited by bigredbass on October 02, 2015) | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2120 Registered: 5-2002 |
You could probably mod the Avatar for biamp input pretty easily. Just make sure you don't send the lows to the high frequency driver with any real amount of volume. But, passive crossover technology has improved considerably over the years and amplifiers provide enough power to deal with the amount lost to the passive crossover. I used to biamp a lot, but don't bother anymore. That said, the F-1X crossover is a good one. I'd say it's only worth experimenting if you get another cab as Joey suggested. | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 2289 Registered: 2-2005 |
" I always wanted to try ELF, but probably won't get a round too-it." Joey, Here's your opportunity to mark it off your bucket list. My ELF subsystem is still for sale. I'd even deliver it to you. ;) Keith | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 4527 Registered: 5-2009 |
Joey , In your post 2469 regarding Bi-Amp history and application and use . I think you covered it swell . I used to Bi Amp but recently again I just run full range or full range Stereo on a Series instrument . Wolf | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 2470 Registered: 9-2002 |
Keith, since my playing days are over, I could never justify it, but Thanks anyway. I do have a question, though. There's an ELF White Paper still posted on the BagEnd website, and it intimates that a very low levels, the bass is still very present, unlike a conventional biamp rig (which I found to be true). Do you find this to be the case? Joey | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 2290 Registered: 2-2005 |
Joey, You can't say you were never given the opportunity. I would say the bass it is still present. I've never really thought about it but when I play at volumes where you can talk the sound is still full. Overall I would say the system is one of the smoothest I've ever played through. Besides acting as a crossover the integrator also performs time alignment and musical limiting functions (what they call concealment). It is also much lighter than two 301's and two single speaker JBL K140's I used many years ago. One thing about the Bag End ELF stuff is it is well thought of in the home theater realm. When I refresh the listing for selling my subsystem I am going to list it in the home audio as well as instrument for sale section of Craigslist. Keith | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 2472 Registered: 9-2002 |
I appreciate it Keith, and IF I were still playing out, WHEN you delivered it, I'd cook and we'd have a large time (Damn, hand-delivered . . .). Most of the time, I'm afraid the BRB and his green nephew do a lot of closet time . . . . All the Best, Joey | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 2291 Registered: 2-2005 |
I hear you. I haven't played out in forever and what little I do other than for my own pleasure is for a neighbor friend who records backing tracks for local gospel singing groups. This is why I decided to start selling off a lot of the gear I've used over the years. Besides a little bit of cash there is the most important benefit that it makes my wife happy to see the clutter disappear. Keith | ||
| edwardofhuncote
Junior Username: edwardofhuncote Post Number: 49 Registered: 6-2014 |
As usual, I've turned someone else's thread into an epic journey... (sorry Rob) but I really have gained a wealth of education here. I LOVE this F-1X into a power-amp, and I'm just now getting what all the amp itself will do. Just bridged in mono is pretty awesome, but this amp also has built in crossover setpoints... you can assign low or high pass points to either channel. I'm still playing around with Joey's suggested setup, bridged mono and daisy-chaining the 126's, but I have the strongest inclination to eventually put a low frequency only cab on channel 2. No disrespect to the folks in Petaluma, but it only took two days before I put my Mesa Scout mini-stack up for sale. I'll keep one Walkabout head and a Scout 15 cab for quick load-in/out, or upright gigs, but *this* is the clean sound I was looking for! Thanks Again Fellas! | ||
| elwoodblue
Senior Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 1722 Registered: 6-2002 |
yeehaw : ))) ...love that journey. | ||
| mtjam
Advanced Member Username: mtjam Post Number: 342 Registered: 11-2011 |
Hey, no problem! I enjoy reading about your experiences with these Crown amps. I like mine a lot, too, and I've learned a lot thanks to everyone who has posted here. | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 2473 Registered: 9-2002 |
Gregory, IF and when you get a lo-pass cab, be sure and get a 4-ohm cab. This way, you'd end up with a 4-ohm cab on the deep end, and an 8-ohm cab for the high side. Remember you want more juice in the subs, and this would automatically prompt the amp into a higher output on the deep end. Like our basses, this sort of thing may not be for everyone. Lots of guys are fat and happy and sound fine with an SVT and a Jazz. However, once you hear a good preamp coupled to a commercial power amp, the obvious difference in warmth, cleanliness, and headroom can be quite a welcome improvement. And, these days, with the one-space lightweight amps, we don't have the weight penalties I once had with a CS800 or similar transformer-based power amps. CA Crests, P-series Yamahas, all great amps, but NOT lightweight power. The thought of Demeter's preamps incorporating an 800-watt power section inside a single rack space chassis almost seems like science fiction after living through the 70's and 80's. See, there you were minding your own business, and then you bought this used Alembic . . . . we've all seen this movie . . . . Joey | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2123 Registered: 5-2002 |
With the Bag End reference here, I though I should mention that I found a pair of their MM-8 studio monitors on Craig's List for crazy cheap here in Denver. They sound amazing, although they are designed to work with their sub which I don't have. Are people using the ELF or Infrasubs with their bass rigs here? | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 2300 Registered: 2-2005 |
I used the ELF with my rig for a long time. I am selling the ELF's as I am downsizing. The full rig which I used in my southern rock band days was two S18E-C speakers, one D10BX-D, one D10B-D and the ELF integrator. For a mid-sized rig I would usually use one S18E-C and the D10BX-D. I have also used the S18E-C as subs for my PA for small gigs or when I was hired to run sound and I didn't want to drag out the big subs. Of all the stuff I've owned over the years I think it is the best sounding speaker system I've used. It is more of a bass PA than bass rig. |
