| Author | Message | ||
| glocke
Member Username: glocke Post Number: 77 Registered: 9-2002 |
For years Ive played my Series I and my jazz basses through 15" Bag end cabs, and prior to my bag ends through other 15" speakers... All this time Ive been told by other bass players and guitar players how much better tens (4x10) or twelves (2x12) are for definition, clarity, and punch.... I finally had a chance last night to play through a 4x12 (SWR). To me, it didn't really have any of the above qaulities...I was using my series I, and it just sounded way to "thin" for me...It didn't seem to have as wide a tonal spectrum as my bag end 15" (which does not have a horn), or the warmth and fatness of that cabinet...The 4x10 seemed to be slighly better for slapping, but not much. So I was just wondering if there are any other 15" users out there that feel the same way, and for the guys that are into the ten and twelve speaker size, what is it you like about them, and does it have anything to do with the type of music you play? | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2459 Registered: 5-2002 |
To state the obvious, warmth and punch are not the same thing <g>. I think one of the main differences between 10's and 15's involves the physics of moving a 10" speaker and a 15" speaker. A 10" speaker should have more "definition, clarity, and punch" because it's easier to move the smaller speaker; it's response should be quicker, and thus more accurate in the higher frequencies; there is less travel. However, the larger speaker should be able to reproduce the lower frequencies more easily. And that's probably the reason it sounds "warmer" to you. Of course these are just generalizations and I'm ignoring things like cabinet design. It sounds like you're happy with the "warm" sound you're getting from your 15". You may want to try combining your 15" cab with a 2x10 cab, with or without an active crossover. This will maintain that low end warmth and add some high end definition. You wouldn't really need a crossover; if your power amp has gain controls for each channel, you can dial in each cabinet until you find the combination that works best for you. Since you like the Bag End cab, you may want to try their 2x10 in combination with your 15. But if you're happy with your sound the way it is, that's great! | ||
| phys49
Junior Username: phys49 Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2005 |
All speakers have fundamental resonant frequencies. These are the frequencies that are loudest when notes are played. In general, the smaller the diameter of the speaker, the higher this fundamental frequency will be. Cabinets are designed to smooth out these peaks without losing the efficiency of the speaker. People who like "big bottom end" will usually be happier with larger speaker diameters. People who want to hear more of the midrange and high end frequencies will like smaller speakers. Some cabinets try to balance the sound by including several different sizes or types of speakers(paper cone, horns, piezo tweeters, etc.) To further complicate things, the diffraction patterns produced by different size speakers will vary with speaker diameter and the wavelength of the sound being produced. The acoustical characteristics of the venue will also affect the sound. In order to avoid getting bogged down in the physics of sound, the best philosophy may be " If it sounds good, use it". | ||
| son_of_magni
Advanced Member Username: son_of_magni Post Number: 215 Registered: 1-2004 |
I have to point out also that you are comparing Bag End to SWR. The SWR just isn't a worthy opponent. Also the SWR is probably rear ported. You might have a better comparison if you tried an Eden with front ports or a Bag End cab. I think the best of both worlds is a 210 with a 118, both front ported. With a variable x-over. | ||
| lowlife
Intermediate Member Username: lowlife Post Number: 187 Registered: 12-2003 |
I have to agree with Karl. The "name" on the cabinet (SWR, Eden, Bag End, Mesa etc) and the "type" of cabinet (front port, rear port, one port two ports) can make all the difference in the comparason. For myself, 10's don't have enough rumble or warmth, and 15's alone don't have enough punch and definition (IMHO). So I use both in my setup, in order to get the best of both worlds. Ellery (Lowlife) | ||
| worldfamousandy
Junior Username: worldfamousandy Post Number: 27 Registered: 3-2004 |
I prefer to have both 15's and 10's in my rig, as well. I am very happy with my Mesa Boogie 2X15 on the bottom, with a Mesa Boogie 2X10 on top. I use an F-1X and, and send the low-pass to the 15's, and the 10's get full range. It's awesome, but a real pain to move around. For most weddings and othe casuals, I end up with only the 10's. One of my students recently picked up an Accugroove 1X12, and it's incredible. The sound is terrific, and it is very portable. I might pick up the Epifani 2X12 ultralight. As a stand-alone box, the 12's are able to give you more useful frequencies than 10's. I like those low-mids. | ||
| rogertvr
Advanced Member Username: rogertvr Post Number: 368 Registered: 1-2003 |
I've got a Trace Elliot 1 x 15" and a Trace Elliot 4 x 10". They're both front ported. the head is a Trace Elliot AH250. I can't use either of the cabs on their own, I don't overly like the sounds of them if I do that. But combined, I get a very wide tonal spectrum that I just love! | ||
| keith_h
Advanced Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 211 Registered: 2-2005 |
I also use a combination of 10" (2 or 4) and 15" (1 or 2) speakers. If I had to pick and use just one I would probably go with my JBL 15 inchers but they sound the best combined with the 10's. Keith | ||
| bigbadbill
Advanced Member Username: bigbadbill Post Number: 206 Registered: 10-2003 |
My favourite cab that I ever owned (or even heard) was my Mk 1 Trace Elliot 4x10 (pre-Kevlar). I loved that cab, but unfortunately when my back problems started I had to sell it. I've been trying varying degrees of downsizing ever since. For a long while I was just using a Trace 1x15 1153 compact with a 300SMX head. I then moved to an Ashdown Klystron Bass Magnifier 200w 1x15 combo, which sounded very different to the Trace (and it wasn't just the heads). The Trace 1153 1x15 is very punchy for a 1x15 (although it lacks some dynamic sensitivity IMHO) and is very fat sounding. The Ashdown is not as punchy but is more sensitive to dynamics. It's also more "papery" sounding. However as even the combo has been causing me problems, I recently switched to a separate head and two 1x12 Aguilars. In a test between the combo and my Ashdown 500 head with single Aguilar, the combo (despite being only 200W) was louder, more open in the midrange and deeper sounding. Again, more papery. The Aguilar, run with the tweeter flat, has a tighter response, still very acceptable depth and fatness (in fact I would say was just as fat as the Ashdown 15, but not quite as deep), and is all round a very acceptable compromise. It remains a compromise though, although obviously the tweeter helps give a few more options. Haven't gigged the rig yet though, and haven't tried the two Aguilars together either but I have it on good authority that I'll be doubly impressed. At the end of the day not all 15s sound similar; nor do all 10s or 12s. I always think you should use your ears. And it also depends what amp your using and what bass you're playing. The rigs that suit my Ricks generally sound poor with everything else, and vice versa (which is a right royal pain!). | ||
| lothartu
Intermediate Member Username: lothartu Post Number: 111 Registered: 8-2003 |
bigbadbill, I'm trying to put together a similar rig. F2B > (some power amp) > 2 Aguilar 1x12's Make sure to pop back in and let us know how using the two Aguilar 1x12's turned out. - Jim | ||
| kayo
Member Username: kayo Post Number: 74 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hello Folks - I've been out of circulation for a year... and I am back. How refreshing it is to see the same folks chiming in with respectful, professional and educated points of view! I used to use a Mesa 1x15 (pre-walkabout series) - and I felt that the cone diameter was just not responsive enough for the type of sound I was hearing in my head. Then I had a Trace Elliott 1x15 and to me - it was a downgrade in terms of impact on tone as opposed to the Mesa. Then the Hartke aluminum cone craze hit the market - and I did not like it either (never owned it but everyone else did) - followed by all the major vendors dishing out their version of 4x10's. Ultimately, I came across Bag End - whom I really am partial to. I really dig their ELF series, and the deep red extended range 4x10 is what I use now. My ideal config would be to add the ELF 1x18 to my extended range deep red 4x10. I also like the EBS version(s), and the Victor Wooten model Ampeg 1x15. But as the other's stated - it's personal - and above all else - be true to thineSelf. If you like it - 'nuff said. Lately - I have been very curios about a new trend... yet smaller cones!!!! I opened up for a Blues band that had Mario Ciopllini (from Huey Lewis and the News) here in SF about 2 months ago and he was using those new BOSE Tower PA set up - and he loves those (I think) 4.25' cones... of which I belive there are 24 in each tower - and he uses 2 BOSE enclosures that have (I think) 16x4.25. I was rather impressed with the sound... and there is this manufacturer (Phil Jones) that is now seliing various versions of cabinets that have 5" cones that I really would like to try. I guess in an ideal world - we'd all have the resources to own every configuration possilbe... then again there's reality. | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 1128 Registered: 9-2003 |
Welcome Back, Kayo! As always, let your ears be your guide. Personally, I use two Eden 210XST 4Ohm cabs. They sound great, but I chose them for portability first. I'm always looking out for my aching back, knee and wrists, LOL! Cheers, Kevin (Message edited by kmh364 on October 20, 2005) | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2464 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hi Kayo; Since you've been gone, there have been maybe a couple threads on the Bose thing and several threads on the Phil Jones stuff. So if you're interested you might want to run a search. If I recall correctly, neither received glowing reviews from club members; but then my memory isn't very reliable. | ||
| dnburgess
Senior Member Username: dnburgess Post Number: 453 Registered: 1-2003 |
Speaker diameter is just one parameter in a complex system and on its own really doesn't tell you much. e.g. some boxes built around 10" speakers have better bottom end than other boxes using 15" or even 18". | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 536 Registered: 10-2003 |
One of the bands I play in uses 2 of the Bose personal PA systems (or whatever they're called) with the Bose subwoofers. For smaller venues they are the bee's knees. No monitors, no feedback and they sound great on the vocals, which are all we run through them. I have of late been playing through 2 (or 1 if I'm lazy) Kustom Groove Bass 410H cabinets, which I A/B'd against a couple of different Ampeg 410 cabinets prior to buying. They are worth giving a listen if you can find one. The cabinet uses the ubiquitous Eminence 10s (Deltas I think, but I'm not certain about that), is front-ported, has a tweeter with an attenuation knob and the tuning of the combination sounds very musical to my ears. It's warm with plenty of smooth bottom. Other than the weight, I really really like the way my basses sound through them. And I can get them into and out of the back of my truck by myself, although it's not the most fun thing I've ever done... http://www.kustom.com/products/bass_amps/groovebass.asp John | ||
| lidon2001
Junior Username: lidon2001 Post Number: 43 Registered: 4-2005 |
Speaking of small boxes with "better" bottom end, here's my current setup. But after playing nothing but 15's, I felt I needed the Ashdown to make it "feel" right. Of course, the limited power and headroom of the WT400 doesn't push the AccuGroove to its full potential, so that adds to needing the additional 15" IMHO. But in the end, very portable, very nice tone, and the Ashdown 15" gave me what the AccuGroove was missing.  (Message edited by lidon2001 on October 20, 2005) | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 478 Registered: 9-2002 |
I'm old enough to remember the folded 18 bins. Talk about rumble . . . . although of course when I see the old pictures of Jaco playing through a pair of Acoustics thru the old MXR rack mount delay, it reminds me how cyclical this all is. Of course all of this re-arranged landscape is possible NOT because speaker/cabinet design is vastly improved since the 60s/70s. The horsepower increase in amps really makes using these toy-sized cabinets possible, especially with the vastly improved PAs available now. Remember, a DC300 Crown was thought of as a MONSTER powerplant in those days. The thought of cheap, light, and reliable 1000 or 2000 watt amps was a pipe dream. With the materials improvements in speaker fabrication to stand up to those current levels, there you are. And remember, FOUR 10s divides that power to acceptable warranty claim levels a lot easier than sending it all to ONE 15 or 18. I prefer 15s. But I do admit it's easier to hear myself on 4-10s because of the interaction between the four drivers instead of a single-point source I get with a single 15 bin. J o e y | ||
| keith_h
Advanced Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 212 Registered: 2-2005 |
Joey, Lugged 2 of those 301's around in my younger years along with 2 370 heads (pretty heavy themselves). My back is glad we can use "toy-sized" cabinets these days. Keith | ||
| bigbadbill
Advanced Member Username: bigbadbill Post Number: 208 Registered: 10-2003 |
Jim, I'll let you know about the Aguilars asap. Although as I haven't got any gigs coming up in the immediate future I'm not quite sure when! | ||
| jet_powers
Advanced Member Username: jet_powers Post Number: 235 Registered: 2-2003 |
I have an early '70's Peavey 612 w/ horn cabinet (I believe it was their answer to the SVT) that I reloaded with, gasp!... Carvins. It sounds better than any of the other combinations I can put together, i.e. a 115 and 410, a 215 alone or with the 410. The 215 and 410 makes an inpressive looking skyscraper stack but I've never been one for image, give me the sound. And the sound is best out of the 612. Unfortunately, unless I have help to move it and someone's truck to move it in, it stays in the band's rehearsal space. My bandmates not so lovingly refer to it as the Queen Mary's anchor but they love the sound it generates and usually don't bitch too much about helping me move it. My Exploiter is the only bass amongst my arsenal of axes that actually sounds good with the 215 alone as it has a nice, punchy sound to begin with. When I do fill in gigs or work with my cover band in clubs the 115/410 combo covers the sonic spectrum pretty well regardless of which bass I use.... I know this doesn't answer Greg's original question, but thought I would share it anyway. JP | ||
| gbarchus
Intermediate Member Username: gbarchus Post Number: 130 Registered: 6-2002 |
Back in the "good ol' days" when my back was still good, I played with two Acoustic 360s (each with a Cerwin Vega 18"), then an Ampeg SVT with two cabinets (16X10"), Swithed to two Sunn 200s cabinets (2X15" JBLs each) with the SVT head. They all did different things. You could hear the 360s at the back of the room without going through the PA. The 16X10s would rumble the stage so much the soundman couldn't turn up the vocal mics. That was a sound I really loved, but it faded not far out into the audience. Switching to the 4X15" JBLs with the same SVT the sound punched farther out into the audience and I still got some solid low end on stage. Part of the equation depends on whether or not you are going through the PA, if your stage rig is just your personal bass monitor or necessary for the overall mix of the band. I'm still a big fan of JBL 15s and 12s (w/ 4 in. voice coils) and you'd be surprised how much high end comes out of them with a good tube preamp like an F2B. I put flatwound strings on my 20th Anniversary so I could use more of the high end on the filters and still couldn't use the treble on my F2B past the 12 o'clock position with JBL 15s without being too bright ...with flatwounds and no tweeter! http://alembic.com/club/messages/411/1941.html?1033976607 There are so many variables in the matrix: bass, strings, amp/preamp, speakers, cabinet... Then there are players who sound the same no matter what rig they are using. Is it all in the fingers? Gale | ||
| ed_r
Junior Username: ed_r Post Number: 18 Registered: 10-2005 |
"Back in the "good ol' days" when my back was still good, I played with two Acoustic 360s (each with a Cerwin Vega 18"), then an Ampeg SVT with two cabinets (16X10"), Swithed to two Sunn 200s cabinets (2X15" JBLs each) with the SVT head. " No WONDER your back went out.;) | ||
| raffy
New Username: raffy Post Number: 4 Registered: 7-2005 |
Right now I'm using a new Aguilar GS 410. It's 4x10" with some front ports and a tweeter, and it really hits the lows but is also very punchy and clear. I tried it with a bunch of diferent heads when I was shopping, and they all sounded good through it. Unfortunately it's really heavy, but it sounds great. | ||
| gbarchus
Intermediate Member Username: gbarchus Post Number: 131 Registered: 6-2002 |
ed r, Yeah, my doctor says there could be any number of contributing factors including family history, but I'm pretty sure lugging those cabinets around set up the "stage" for my back failure. I was never SO happy as to be in a band with a road crew! Gale | ||
| gare
Advanced Member Username: gare Post Number: 271 Registered: 11-2003 |
In reference to Gregs original question, if it was me, I'd checkout the Bag End 2x10 w/out the coaxial speaker. And combine that with the 2x15's. The cabinet should be close to same design, same speaker mfgr (in theory). You should maintain your sound plus a little depth, definition, and range. As a yutte in 'the good ole days' I was foolish enough to haul around 2 Sunn Coliseum 880 heads, 2 4x12 cabs and 2 1x18 cabs, which I finally narrowed down to the 880's and 2 Sunn 200s's. That final configuration is still one one my favorite amp setups. At one point I used 2 few DC300's that Joey mentioned. Thank God the technology has allowed for substantial downsizing. I swear, some of that older gear had to have bricks inside those cabinets. | ||
| alembic76407
Advanced Member Username: alembic76407 Post Number: 397 Registered: 5-2002 |
you guy's have to admit, as big and back breaking as those monster amps were, it was sure was fun to walk up to an amp that was taller than you!!!! there are times I wish I could use Tornadic Thunder again!!!!! but nobody will let me !!! David T (The loud One)  | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 2121 Registered: 9-2002 |
Yeah David ...and you forget the "influence" it has on dancing girls!!! Hehehehehehe Paul TBO | ||
| jacko
Advanced Member Username: jacko Post Number: 377 Registered: 10-2002 |
Just to stick my two-pennorth in - I've been using a trace elliot 4x10 combo and 1x15 extension cabinet and although I like the sound, they both weigh a ton so they're going to have to go. I'm currently looking at either Eden or Markbass speakers - probably Markbass (they're cheaper than Eden and lighter) - and the dealers have recommended I use the 4x10 with a 2x10 rather than going for a 1x15. They seem to think I'll get all the warmth and punch I can handle but I'm not convinced so I'm going to have to do some comparison testing. Front end will be an Eden navigator and QSC power amp. Graeme | ||
| ajdover
Advanced Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 250 Registered: 11-2003 |
I've been an Ampeg user for years now, though I've used Fender, Peavey, Hartke, and others. What I've found is this: More power is better for most folks. More power generally means more headroom. Better to divide your signal, if you can, amongst different speaker sizes so you can get a "balanced" sound. If you can't divide your signal, decide which tone/sound appeals to you most and go with that. Like Keith, I remember the days of heavy amps and cabinets. I still live those days now due to my choice of Ampegs. However, the tone is perfect for me. I run my SVT IV through an SF-2, and the outputs go to two Ampeg BXT series cabinets (1X15 and 4X10). I run the Low Pass to the 15, and the high pass to the 4X10, which I run full range. It works for me. With 490 watts per side (the SVT IV has a built in crossover) at 4 ohms, it's plenty loud, too. Keith has played through it, so he can vouch for the tone/power. We couldn't turn it up too loud when he visited, though! Bottom line is get what works for you. I've been playing for 28 years, and I'm still learning about tone, rigs, power, etc. If you like 15s, that's all that really matters. After all, it's your money and your choice. My two cents, Alan | ||
| keith_h
Advanced Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 216 Registered: 2-2005 |
Yep, Alan's rig has very good tone and balance between highs and lows. It confirms my opinion that using a mix of 10's and 15's give the best overall sound. A mix of 10's and 18's might be good also but I have never tried the combination to see how they sound. Keith | ||
| gare
Advanced Member Username: gare Post Number: 272 Registered: 11-2003 |
I also think one needs to match their ampage to the instrument. Does one really need a rig that will go 8hz to 20k hz ? From discussions in previous threads, the instrument range just isn't there. If you play 4 string, your low fundamental is what 41.3 or there abouts ? And from the previous discussions getting out to 6k to 7k is a stretch. Of course 5 or 6 string basses are another story. I'd agree with Keith that 10's and 15's cover most of the range needed. But with todays technologys, 10's and 12's are getting down in range to match alot of 15's. I do sometimes miss earlier times when when you plugged in to 1 of 2 inputs and there was a volume, bass, & treble knob. And no horns in the cabinets. I'd like to hear Tornadic Thunder sometime, bet that could make your hair go straight back (think wind blown effect) | ||
| phildo
New Username: phildo Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2005 |
hey guys. im new here. so howdie, but anywho. i play through a 4x10 and a 15. honestly i am a big fan of the 15 because it can actually handel the low end part of my tone and i continually ruin my 10's. so i usually play through the 15 by itself. but as for practice. i use my minx 110 peavey. just sounds good for practice. | ||
| ed_r
Junior Username: ed_r Post Number: 30 Registered: 10-2005 |
Most people are over-rigged, if you ask me, but thats' OK, it keeps people employed all over the planet.;) | ||
| jacko
Advanced Member Username: jacko Post Number: 388 Registered: 10-2002 |
Especially doctors ;-) | ||
| alembic76407
Advanced Member Username: alembic76407 Post Number: 400 Registered: 5-2002 |
hey Paul (TBO) that rig would make their cloths fall off, and I have the pictures to prove it!!!! HEHEHEHE!!!!! David T (TLO) | ||
| gbarchus
Intermediate Member Username: gbarchus Post Number: 132 Registered: 6-2002 |
phildo, welcome to the club! gale | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 482 Registered: 9-2002 |
Yes, I DID love waling up to those big stacks . . . and Gale, I'm forever jealous: I'd give my eye teeth to find a pair of of Cabaret 115s in mint shape. I always wished for a bass equivalent of a Twin Reverb. Super Redheds, Metros, etc. are close but they never really sound right to me unless they run an extension 15. I'd always hoped Steve Rabe would have engineered a 212 Redhead (and no the Silverado wasn't it at all). . . maybe one day. I convinced 212s in the right cabinet in a combo style would be close enough to my beloved 15s to do it. Incidentally, Mesa's Venture combo is my-T-fine and pretty close. J o e y | ||
| mpisanek
Member Username: mpisanek Post Number: 80 Registered: 1-2005 |
Do any of you guys know anything about the newer neodynium speakers. They are supposed to be much lighter than conventional speakers and be able to handle much more power. The new Tech21Soundsystem stuff is an example of it. The DB rating of the newer cabs fitted with these speakers is supposedly higher as well. Any thoughts? | ||
| phys49
Junior Username: phys49 Post Number: 23 Registered: 4-2005 |
Neodymium is a rare earth element that is being used as magnet material in some applications to replace the conventional alnico magnets. The advantage is that neodymium magnets are lighter in weight and smaller in size than an equivalent strength conventional magnet. The weight of a neodymium speaker can be half of the weight of a conventional speaker. I haven't tried one yet, but I have noticed that my conventional cabinets(SWR 2X12 and 1X15) get heavier each time I use them. And these cabinets are light compared to the rolled and pleated Kustom folded horn 18 I used in the good old days when I could easily lift 150 lbs. Eminence and some other speaker companies are offering neodymium speakers as replacement options. The next time I replace a speaker, I will try one to see how they sound. Perry | ||
| jacko
Advanced Member Username: jacko Post Number: 391 Registered: 10-2002 |
I'm going for Markbass due to the weight. 56lbs for the 4x10 and 53 for the 1x15. Combined that's roughly the same wheight as my trace combo! Just hope I can live with the bright yellow speaker cones ;-) Graeme | ||
| worldfamousandy
Junior Username: worldfamousandy Post Number: 29 Registered: 3-2004 |
My conventional cabinets also seem to be gaining weight as they age. Then again, so am I. | ||
| karl
Member Username: karl Post Number: 59 Registered: 7-2002 |
I have to put a word in here for Phil Jones' 5" speakers - unconventional for bass speakers, for sure, and like everyone else, I kinda assumed you needed the bigger speakers to get the warmth and the real bottom end. But Phil Jones does it by loading his cabs with six of these 5" cones. Trouble is, that's six magnets, which makes the thing damn heavy for its size (83lbs). Beautiful deep round and responsive sound though. K. | ||
| gare
Advanced Member Username: gare Post Number: 278 Registered: 11-2003 |
I don't have any first hand experience with the neo's, but reading the the spec's they also seem to have better frequency response. (that may not just be from the magnet tho) And they seem to command a premium price (like the Beymas), but they appear to be worth the investment. Also from what I've read, neodymium magnets are more sensive to higher temperatures than conventional magnets. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2491 Registered: 5-2002 |
Some previous comments on neodymium are here. | ||
| chip
New Username: chip Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2005 |
Re: other alternatives. I use my Series II 6-string with a rig suggested by the folks at Alembic. A 4X10 BagEnd cab (#Q10BX-D)( with one co-ax tweeter), a 1X 18 BagEnd cab (S 18 E) , and using the BagEnd sub processer (MX-2). Pre-amp is Alembic and powere is a stereo Carver 950, which comes after the processor w/ one side pushing the 10's and one side pushing the 18. I was promised "HI-FI" and it certainly delivers. | ||
| gare
Advanced Member Username: gare Post Number: 285 Registered: 11-2003 |
Chip That rig sounds like great..the bag end stuff is nice. Which wizard at Alembic did you consult with if we might ask. | ||
| chip
New Username: chip Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2005 |
It was Ron Wickersham. I had asked the dangerous question, "If you owned this bass, what amp would you buy?" Later I found out that he had co-invented technology behind the sub processor. When I bought the gear it was called "ELF" for Extended Low Frequency. If you're interested, you can go to www.bagend.com, click on "tech library" then "legacy" then click on "guide to ELF" for the 15 page version, or for the short version, click on "ELF-1", scroll to the bottom and open "About ELF". It's a pretty amazing and smooth sound, top to very bottom. | ||
| gbarchus
Intermediate Member Username: gbarchus Post Number: 135 Registered: 6-2002 |
Chip, Have you ever used the Bag End Q10BX-D as a stand alone (without the 18"). I'm curious how it sounds by itself. Gale | ||
| s_wood
Intermediate Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 159 Registered: 5-2002 |
After years of using an Eden rig consisting of a 210 XST and a 115XLT or a 410XST and a 118XLT depending upon the gig I have switched over to Accugroove stuff and I must say that I have never been happier with my tone. These cabs really get it done, and my back loves the fact that they are very light weight. I have a Tri112L that I use for rehearsals and light assault gigs....38 lbs and it will smoke any 2x10 out there. I also have an El Whappo, Jr...2 12" drivers, a 6" mid driver and 2 tweeters. It weighs 69 lbs (which is less than just about any 4x10 or 2x15 cab) and it just blows them away. When the El Whappo, Jr is combined with the 57 lb Tri 210 (which itself will blow away any 4 x 10) the volume produced by the stack is just sick...a felony in all 50 states. These cabs have the best and cleanest bass response (below 200hz) I have ever heard. What I really like, though, is that to my ears the frequency response is quite flat, as compared to many cabs which by design have a hump around 200 Hz. The problem with that is that many rooms produce standing waves in the same frequency range which, especially when coupled with the extra bass energy that can be created by the typical dive bar hollow stage, means that your pristine and clear Alembic tone will be sadly transformed into something like the "sea of mud" setting on a old EB-3 (remember those?) Because the Accugrooves are so flat, I can spend my soundcheck time getting MY tone, instead of simply fighting the cabs and room to neutral. Of course, in that regard the Accugroove design philosophy is just like Alembic's: let the player decide! Accugrooves: Check 'em out (YMMV, of course) PS. I am aware of the controversy over whether the impedence selector on Accugroove cabs (which they call the "Accuswitch") is bogus or not. Who cares? The cabs sound fantastic, are very light in weight and I would have bought them in a second without the Accuswitch. | ||
| chip
New Username: chip Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2005 |
Gale: Yes I have, in two situations: 1. In a small or quiet venue (like a church service) where they just don't seem to appreciate that low B, or 2. Where your gig employs a FOH sound system that has subs. It apparently drives sound guys nuts because, and I don't understand the physics here, but the waves down there at that level must be additive because they can't get a stable volume level and you get low freq. feedback. So, what usually happens is an SM57 on one of the 10's and a DI so's to not interfere with the FOH mix. But in a smaller club/bar setting, I love the full sound with the 10's and the 18. Anyway, the Q10 still sounds great by itself-- very clear and precise at any volume level, which is what I was going for. The co-ax lets the high-end harmonic beauty of the Alembic electronics poke through. (You just don't get that low "feel" without the 18" (...unless there's a PA sub.) Hope I answered the question. Chip | ||
| gbarchus
Intermediate Member Username: gbarchus Post Number: 137 Registered: 6-2002 |
Thanks Chip, You did! Gale | ||
| dfung60
Intermediate Member Username: dfung60 Post Number: 108 Registered: 5-2002 |
I was fortunate to see Sir Paul McCartney's performance in San Jose, CA last night. It was really a great show (my wife got the tickets through an associate at work, so had I had to cough up the $500 for a pair it might have been harder for me to say that). In a world where American Idol will make you a superstar (not!) it's amazing to see somebody whose so talented that "superstar" doesn't seem to be quite enough. Well, the reason that this posting is in this thread is of course because of his stage bass amp. He played his Hofner bass about 60% of the show with a long acoustic guitar set, some piano, and even a couple of songs on electric guitar. There was a long row of stage amps across the back so it's a little hard to tell exactly who was playing what (there was a guitarist, another guitarist who switched off on bass, the keyboards/musical director, and Abe Laborial, Jr. on drums who looks like Donkey Kong when he's playing). Sir Paul's main bass rig looked to be a pair of Mesa Boogie Bass 400+ amps. The stage speakers were a pair of Boogie bass cabinets, one with 2-15"s and the other with 1-15" on the bottom half and 4-10" on the top half. These were the older Boogie RoadReady cabinets which they made for many years but are not like the current ones (black grilles instead of chrome). I think the combo cabinet must have been custom made, as I don't remember ever seeing that configuration before. That's the advantage of being Paul, I guess. There was also a large double Vox rig next to that with large cabinets but the speakers were not visible through the cloth (this may have been a guitar amp). There was also a double Ashdown setup that looked to be a 15" and some 10"s. Sound was great, but had nothing to do with the stage rigs I'm sure. The venue (HP Pavillion) is notorious for really poor concert sound but this wasn't bad at all. Paul is a fantastic bass player, which is all the more impressive when he's simultaneously being a fantastic vocalist on top of that. The light show and stage design was just amazing, really superior to anything I've seen before. There was a wall of video displays across the back of the stage that wrapped down under their feet and covered the entire stage floor. Above that there was an even larger wall that had a bank of spotlights, projectors, and rollaway screens. They would have a light show on the screens or would pull them back to create an effect like an uncurtained theater stage. Really cool. | ||
| vladpire
New Username: vladpire Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2005 |
hey lidon2001, I saw that you posted a while back wanting some information on suntech guitars. If your interested, I have some info, as well as a never played N.O.S. suntech neck through strat. give me a holler @ Vladpire@mchsi.com, if you want. Thanks. | ||
| lidon2001
Junior Username: lidon2001 Post Number: 46 Registered: 4-2005 |
Hi Donovan, Thanks for the info. I will be contacting you. Now this is strange. My friend from high school days who owns the only other Suntech I know tragically passed away on Sunday. The best guitarist I've ever played with is no longer on this planet. And then this message comes to me in a faraway message forum that I luckily happen to watch. If anyone has any doubts about an afterlife, kharma, etc., please put them to rest. See it before your eyes. Tom (Message edited by lidon2001 on November 10, 2005) | ||
| lidon2001
Junior Username: lidon2001 Post Number: 47 Registered: 4-2005 |
OK, I take that back. The best I've played with is Jon Weber. Gary was second best... Sorry Jon! Tom | ||
| serialnumber12
Advanced Member Username: serialnumber12 Post Number: 229 Registered: 12-2004 |
I personally like to "feel" my bass,so ive been using 15s since the 70s.  | ||
| gbarchus
Intermediate Member Username: gbarchus Post Number: 145 Registered: 6-2002 |
Not all 15" speakers are the same, or any size for that matter. As I said in an earlier post, I favor JBL 15s and 12s with their 4" voice coils, especially the 60 watt D 140s with alnico magnets. As amplifiers gained in power over the years (I started playing bass with a Fender Showman, 85 watts, and a single 15" JBL D 130 guitar speaker), so speakers needed to be able to handle the power. In the process, they gave up sensitivity. The most "rumble" I have ever experienced was with two 8X10 SVT cabinets and I am told they cannot reproduce the fundamental 42 Hz E string. The 10s in those cabinets are not very expensive either, stamped frames and 2" voice coils. The most midrange sound came from an Acoustic 360 with 2 folded horn 18" cabinets. From my experience, it's not the size of the speaker that correlates to the amount of bass. Speaker sensitivity and cabinet design are more critical. | ||
| mpisanek
Member Username: mpisanek Post Number: 97 Registered: 1-2005 |
Here's my $0.02 for you to laugh at. I used to believe that size matters (in speakers) up until recently. In the past I used SWR 18" speakers for most of the time. Recently, I updated my rig and bought 2 Eden 2X10 XST cabinets. The sound they produce is incredible! The frequency range of the cabinet is amazing. Many people have commented on the amount of bottom end that these speakers can produce. I think that the old stereotype of saying that bigger is better is going by the wayside. With the advent of new speaker materials, new drivers, and new cabinet designs, it will come down to a matter of personal taste in terms of the sound you would like to produce. All of the major bass speaker manufacturers produce reasonable quality gear, but it comes down to purely personal taste as to whether you like one 10" speaker cabinet sound, or you prefer another 15" speaker cabinet sound. | ||
| jacko
Senior Member Username: jacko Post Number: 414 Registered: 10-2002 |
I can vouch for the roundness of Mikes bottom end ;-) Seriously though, borrowing his edens to use with my Eden navigator/qsc plx2402 has made me give serious thought as to which speakers to go with. Hopefully there'll be opportunities to audition various sizes at this Sundays Bass Day. Graeme | ||
| cosmic
Junior Username: cosmic Post Number: 34 Registered: 5-2005 |
I used to be a 15 inch sorta guy until I tried Eden's stuff. Now I swear by their 10inch cabinets. They are full range and give you plenty of low end thump as well as a strong mid range and as much top end sparkle as you want. I find these newer 10's punch through the mix way better than andy 15 I have ever tried. | ||
| markhvn
New Username: markhvn Post Number: 4 Registered: 6-2005 |
Am using 1 4x10" cab, and 2 1x15" Ported custom cab. The 15" are JBL 2226G's, which are 4 ohm 4" vc drivers. These are rated @ 600w AES continuous. A QSC amp drives each 15; one amp per speaker @ 4ohms. That gets the most power at resonable distortion. The cabinet resonance freq and the 15" is 40hZ. So, a low E sounds complete. The F-1X variable crossover makes all this work beautifully. I agree that 10's are better for the +150hZ, however, a Modern 15" with lighter magnet structure. I beleive that for a low B note, you really need to consider an 18" and a cabinet with a resonant freq of around 32hZ. | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 1404 Registered: 9-2003 |
Good ingredients do not a great cake make (?), LOL! It's all about the execution (i.e., the sound), not the specs. I'll have to agree with our Scottish Alembic contingent: I too own two of those Eden D-210XST's and they are the bee's knees! I would never have believed it having coming from the 15" or nothing '70's era of bass amp cabs. After hearing an Alembic demo at a local Dealer through the older Eden D-210-XLT cabs, and then getting a unanimous recommendation from Beaver and his Mgr. Gard over at Bass Central, I just had to get 'em! Two of the D-210XST's are actually superior to Eden's own D-410XST, itself superior to the industry stalwart D-410XLT cab. I would never have thought that a small handful of 10's could go that low. | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 503 Registered: 9-2002 |
I guess I'm in on this from both sides of the street: I went around town and tried all the usual suspects in a 210 combo. I need a new rig, and I just can't justify a BIG rig, plus at 50 I lack the grunt to shove an SVT/810 in and out of venues anymore (geez I hate doddering of into middle age . . .) Super RedHead: I really wanted to like this, but it just sounded cold and weak. Mesa Venture: I expected this to really hit me, but it was just not there, either. Fender Bassman 400: Nice compressor, lot of amp for a grand, Eminence speakers, but just not my cup of tea. Style points though that Fender engineered a single 15 bin with a matching footprint specifically for this amp. Eden Metro: I felt like the Three Bears, it was just right. On its own, it would have certainly handled a four string, but it's asking a lot for a Twin Reverb sized cabinet to truly anchor those low Cs and Ds. As luck would have it, it happened to be sitting atop an Eden single 15, and then with that attached, it was perfect. Not boomy or rumbling, just complete. It went from sounding like a baby grand to a 9 foot concert. I just can't completely get away from 15s I suppose. J o e y | ||
| markhvn
New Username: markhvn Post Number: 6 Registered: 6-2005 |
I fully agree with you knm364; it is the sound that matters, not the spec's. I threw that out there after lots of research, and sometimes it is interesting for comparision purposes. I should honestly listen the Eden D-210-XLT. I have had some Eden users tell me that the sound was cleaner and the could "feel" the than what the Eden setup they were using. Could be they were not using D-210-XLT; but since they sounded that good I would check them out, especially if the weight is comparable to what I use. Mark | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2706 Registered: 5-2002 |
Mark; note that Kevin was referring to the XST's rather than the XLT's. | ||
| jacko
Senior Member Username: jacko Post Number: 436 Registered: 10-2002 |
Well, after all the talk of eden and Markbass, I ended up going for EBS. I now have 4x10 and 2x12 Neodymium cabinets and I have to say I'm getting the best sound I've had for years. the 410 is very punchy and could probably give me all the bottom end I need but adding the 212 has rounded it out a bit and lessened the harshness. On top of the tone, it's very loud - I now have two very frightened guitarists ;-) Together, the cabinets wheigh less than my old Trace elliot 410 combo so my back is thanking me aswell. Graeme | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 1409 Registered: 9-2003 |
Even though I'm "only" 42, a nagging old knee injury, chronic lower back pain and carpal tunnel/cubital syndrome in both hands precluded a heavy rig. Thanks to the great advice I got at Bass Central, I've got what I feel to be the ultimate "portable" bass rig. I can carry each D210XST all by myself without getting hurt, and the Eden WT550 head fits nicely in Eden's padded shoulder bag. All that stuff fits nicely in the back seat area of my Dodge Ram, and with the fold-flat floor, my seats and interior don't get munged-up and I don't have to haul it in and out of the pick-up bed. Of course, portability wouldn't mean squat if it didn't sound good and it does sound very good. BTW, in order to keep the cabs nice, I got super-nice padded cordura covers custom-made for them (factory covers were N/A, at least ca. Jan '04). They were dirt cheap and made to my measurements by Larry LeCover (lecover.com). Kudo's to Gard over at Bass Central for turning me on to LeCover...they were the OEM cover manufacturer for Eden in the pre-U.S. Music days. They fit perfect, protect the stuff, and weigh nothing. | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 1410 Registered: 9-2003 |
Sorry to sound like an Eden commercial...I'm sure there's better out there, but it didn't break the bank nor does it break my back, LOL! | ||
| keurosix
Junior Username: keurosix Post Number: 16 Registered: 10-2005 |
Hey fellows, I would like to add 2 cents that supports Chip's, Steve's and Marks's comments: (BLTN) If you hit a note below the low E, say a detuned D, or a 5 or 6 string's low B (including those detuned heavy rock players hitting a low A or C)or the bottom of the food chain, a low F# 7 string, you need a cab that is capable of reproducing the fundamental frequency. Most 10", 12" & 15" cabs can only support the fundamental of a low E around 40 Hz and drop off fast below this in db as you go lower. For the most part, 4 string basses have been nicely supported all along, but the lower extended range players have had to think hard for good sonic support. I use a BigBen SWR 18" for the low B on my Europa 6 string, and an SWR 4x10 for the highs, but when I bought the guitar at G-Guitars, I played it through an EBS 350 amp and a 3x10 Bergantino cab. It hasn't sounded better and I didn't notice a lack of support for the low B. (It sorta put a nagging discontent on my ears for my SWR rig, too) Go figure. I'm starting to think an AccuGroove El Whappo would be the best of all worlds in one cabinet - however - it is hard to find one to audition in CT. | ||
| smokin_dave
Advanced Member Username: smokin_dave Post Number: 254 Registered: 10-2002 |
http://www.philjonesbass.com/Products%20page.htm Here is an interesting concept in speaker/cabinet design.I recently read a review in BASSPLAYER mag which gave the PJ monster cab/head very high marks.They have heavy weight endorsers with Bob Babbit and Chuck Rainey but the downside is that the stuff weighs a ton and have a heafty price tag to match.But still I'm very interested in trying out the PJB briefcase.Check it out. And after reading this thread more carefully,I see that PJB has been mentioned.If anybody has tried these things out,please post your opinions.I'm very curious to read more about views on PJB stuff. (Message edited by smokin_dave on January 18, 2006) | ||
| kungfusheriff
Senior Member Username: kungfusheriff Post Number: 466 Registered: 8-2003 |
Meh. I haven't tried PJB amps, but I'm loath to lend my reputation to anything made in China these days, be it shoes or bass amps. Tried and tried to like small speakers, but in practice, (at least for me) they just don't cut the mustard. My ancient 100W Walter Woods through an E-VB speaker mounted in an equally ancient Bag End PA sub, though...woo, that little sucker can pressurize my skull at close range, and it seems to throw pretty well too. If only my bandmates would let me turn it down... EDIT--When I saw Babbitt play with the Funk Brothers last summer (an experience I highly recommend) there wasn't a PJB amp in sight. (Message edited by kungfusheriff on January 18, 2006) | ||
| johnbob
New Username: johnbob Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2004 |
Hi, I'm playing an Eden 4x10 XST. I must say it beats the 1818x of trace elliot I've owned. It's more clear, warmer, has lots and lots of punch and it's LOUD!!!! No 15" or 18" for me with this XST beast. O yes, in front there's my Jaydee build for me by John Diggins. I hope to own an Alembic soon...so "sorry" that there is no Alembic in this picture. Kind regards John  | ||
| mrbeezroom
Junior Username: mrbeezroom Post Number: 29 Registered: 3-2004 |
AccuGroove El Whappo | ||
| haddimudd
Intermediate Member Username: haddimudd Post Number: 149 Registered: 6-2002 |
John, That's a beautiful Jaydee nevertheless! | ||
| bracheen
Senior Member Username: bracheen Post Number: 968 Registered: 11-2003 |
The El Whappo is definitely on my list of gear to get one day. I had been using a 2x10. It's just in my practice room as I don't play out. I was pretty happy with it. Then, my wonderful wife felt that I needed a 15" Ashdown to go with it. The 15 really rounded out the sound. It is much fuller now even at low volumes. I am now firmly in the 10" with a 15" camp. Sam | ||
| johnbob
Junior Username: johnbob Post Number: 15 Registered: 11-2004 |
Thanks Haddimudd... Soon there will be an Alembic standing next to it | ||
| rogueman
New Username: rogueman Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2006 |
I found the Aguilar GS 112 's to be best of both. They are singles so they are focused, fat and deep. at 300 watts apiece you can add more for larger areas. Nice horn for highs, but a ton of warm womph. |
