| Author | Message | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2141 Registered: 5-2002 |
After years of dealing with directional noise in my Starfire with the ancient Series pickups in there, I finally got a new set from the mothership. The noise is less, although still there, so it looks like I'm going to have to look into better shielding and perhaps an electronics upgrade. What is interesting to me is how the tone has changed. What I've gained: Overall smoothness and consistency of tone. The new pickups bring a very consistent tone across the whole range of the bass, so that different registers sound much more like they all come from the same bass. Fuller low mids. The bass sounds more present in the low mids and more solid. I think this contributes to the consistency of tone as the fundamental and first harmonic live in this range. What I've lost: The original pickups had kind of an airiness to them in the high end and similar extension in the lows. While the new pickups aren't lacking in low end (or the high end, for that matter) and in some ways seem more solid, the old ones had a more nuanced character in the low end. I don't know whether this is due to the number of winds of wire (the old ones had very low resistance, in the 800-900 ohm range) or to the change in shape of the magnets from trapezoid to rectangular. What does this mean for me? Option anxiety! They both sound really good. Right now I'm really liking the consistency of tone and the more solid low mids of the new ones. If I were to draw a comparison, it's like moving from 1972 era Phil Lesh to mid 70s. A slightly more solid body sound, perhaps. Plus, black looks pretty cool. I'll try to get some samples put together and post them. | ||
| adriaan
Moderator Username: adriaan Post Number: 3284 Registered: 6-2002 |
Colour me intrigued! | ||
| stephenr
Intermediate Member Username: stephenr Post Number: 144 Registered: 9-2014 |
Interesting observations. Look forward to more discussion about this. Curious as to why you chose to replace the pickups in an attempt to eliminate directional noise instead of going for the electronics upgrade that is supposed to eliminate the "modern sources" of directional noise in the older electronics? | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2142 Registered: 5-2002 |
Well, apparently the metal mounting bar under the pickups that was used back in the day can create lots of noise, so I thought I'd give it a try. I've also been curious for a very long time what difference the pickups might make sonically. But really, I'm hesitant to take their time up with this bass because they didn't put it together in the first place. They've been really generous with their time on the phone, etc., as it is. I'd like to wait until I can afford to have them really do it right, including some other wood working stuff (like permanently mounting the humcanceller), before I take up Ron's time with these ancient relics I have cobbled together. And then there is the issue of not having the bass for an extended period of time.... | ||
| stephenr
Intermediate Member Username: stephenr Post Number: 145 Registered: 9-2014 |
Hey Edwin Thanks for the reply. Makes a lot of sense. I am always amazed at the level and amount of customer service freely given by Mica and the crew at Alembic. Also very aware of how much work Ron already has relative to the amount of time he has to do the work, especially since he is so thorough and committed to perfection. Best of luck in your quest for sonic satisfaction! | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2143 Registered: 5-2002 |
Yeah, I am well aware of all the people patiently waiting for their miracles of art, science, and craft to be born! | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 4629 Registered: 5-2009 |
Edwin , Your novel description of the sound of your old pickups possibly could apply to the sound of the pickups in my 73-32 as well . The slight "Directional Noise" so far has not been a major issue for me in most places and locations except for one rehearsal studio where I first met her ( (73-32) where she proudly was able to receive several radio stations simultaneously and she did so with bold defiant impudence only to be dismissed by her prior protector into my hands where she prefers to behave well ! It was meant to be . I like her and she likes me . Wolf | ||
| tomhug
Advanced Member Username: tomhug Post Number: 203 Registered: 7-2008 |
This is very interesting to me. My '77 Series I seemed to get a bit "thinner" (sonically) over the years. It's currently back at the mothership getting a shielding upgrade. One of the requests I did pass along was that the bass itself be "re-certified" - that it that it comes back to me sounding like an Alembic. Don't get me wrong, it always sounded very good, but it did seem like it gradually became more difficult to easily get good low and low-mid content from the Series I pickups and circuitry. I"m also having the 3 position switch changed to a CVQ, in part to address the concerns I was/(am) having. It's interesting to hear that there may be some similarities/symptoms with other older Series I pickups or circuitry | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2144 Registered: 5-2002 |
Well, I wouldn't say that the old pickups I have are thin (when I first installed them, I brought the bass down to the Boulder Theatre and ran it through their PA. The engineer was stunned at the clarity and depth of low end. It moved the furniture in the theatre.). The very bottom end is very pipe organ like. In a way, it gives the bass kind of an acoustic bass aspect, which I really love. Having the CVQ really does allow you to dial in all kinds of information with them. The new pickups seem a little less responsive to the tone controls. Or respond differently. Or something. Both sound amazing. I've got an old beat up shell of an EB3 that I was planning on putting Dark Stars into, but now I'm thinking the old Alembics with a very simple preamp circuit might be a cool option. One very odd thing about the old pickups is that the humcanceller only works when it faces the back of the bass. I suspected that maybe my preamp card was mis-wired somehow, but the new pickups operate perfectly. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2145 Registered: 5-2002 |
I just looked at the humcanceller thread. Keavin's bass also seems to have the humcancellers facing the rear. Very interesting! | ||
| tomhug
Advanced Member Username: tomhug Post Number: 204 Registered: 7-2008 |
Yeah, "thin" is an oversimplification and overstatement. (It's hard to write about tone) But I do think the tone of my Series I changed over time. I thought it might have been a side effect of wiring from Stereo to Mono. It will be interesting to see how the bass comes back, and what of the existing circuits needed replacing. I trust Mica and Ron to work their magic. But it was striking to me how your comments echoed some of my impressions with regards to my older Series bass tone. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 4630 Registered: 5-2009 |
Edwin , I think that your old pickups in the EB3 would be interesting ! I have a set of AXY Alembic pickups that I have been thinking of doing the same with. I originally was going to instal Dark Stars with the "Darling Pair" mod but recently I have been thinking that the AXY's might go in there instead eventually. I might build a simple buffer preamp using TLO71 /TLO72 op-amps . I have some leftover from a 1980s Soundcraft Board refurbish that I did a while back . All in all I would prefer just to find a proper Alembic circuit to go with the AXY's ( another iron in the fire ) Wolf | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 2509 Registered: 9-2002 |
I dimly remember something about this ( . . . . . happens more and more . . . . . ), but isn't there some method of 're-magnetizing' pickups that have lost mag over the years? Joey | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2146 Registered: 5-2002 |
From what I understand, Alembic pickups have always had ceramic magnets. Alnico magnets can get effectively recharged, but ceramic magnets generally don't need it. Mine seem pretty strong. Same deal for the alnico vs. ceramic JBL speakers. The K and D series all could use a recharge by now. AXY's might not fit in an EB3. Maybe they would, I'm not sure. I think my old series pickups would fit great, but there is precious little room for electronics. Even a battery would be a tight squeeze. If I had any gumption, I'd get straight to work on this, as my band is covering 5/2/70 and it would be great to have it up and running. Not likely, though. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 4631 Registered: 5-2009 |
Edwin ,with my plan to fit the AXY's I would need to make a two different template's for my plunge router to do a correct job and a pick up ring cover for the neck position , but they will fit . As I write this I am looking at the pickups sitting on the bass in the proposed arrangement  . It can work . As far as electronics , a little op amp buffer will also fit with room to spare. Someday when I have time that could be a fun project. Your 5/2/70 show sounds great , that is from my favorite era of the " Dead" ! Wolf (Message edited by sonicus on December 08, 2015) | ||
| rv_bass
Junior Username: rv_bass Post Number: 32 Registered: 8-2014 |
Interesting thread. I recently purchased a 70s Series I and my first impression was that it sounded more "open" when compared to my 2005 Orion, which I felt had a deeper, richer, and/or smoother tone. I'm using Pyramid Gold flat wounds on both basses. From what I understand, the Series I had pickup upgrades sometime in the 80s. Although, I guess there are a variety of factors that could contribute to this apparent sound difference, including wood combinations. | ||
| tomhug
Advanced Member Username: tomhug Post Number: 205 Registered: 7-2008 |
In addition to the aforementioned Series I, I have a 2000 Orion very similar to yours, rv_bass. Probably the two biggest reasons for the differences are Activator (Orion) vs. Filter (Series) electronics. And then set-neck (Orion) vs. neck-through (Series). | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4801 Registered: 6-2002 |
Pickup location also is a big influence on the sound of the bass. Something Ive noticed on my own basses of the same design. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2159 Registered: 5-2002 |
Another observation. The new pickups are MUCH louder. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2164 Registered: 5-2002 |
Here's a sample of the tone. I chose a ballad because you can hear the bass better between all the other instruments. We hadn't played this one in about 6 months, so there are a fair number of clunkers. https://www.dropbox.com/s/vc2qgvuk67asaf5/Black%20Peter.mp3?dl=0 Just to compare to the old ones (of course, there are other variables, including the DI): https://www.dropbox.com/s/mh4zrbj2c37gwq1/Row%20Jimmy_1.mp3?dl=0 | ||
| fc_spoiler
Senior Member Username: fc_spoiler Post Number: 1848 Registered: 5-2006 |
I can record a comparison between a 1979 and a 2015 Series I pickup, in the same bass with the exact same settings. (only neckpickup btw, the bridgepickup is soldered to the preampcard) I didn't notice any radical changes after replacing the pickup (apart from the corrected phase issue of course) Not sure if I can do it this year, most likely somewhere next week. :-) | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2165 Registered: 5-2002 |
By 1979 I think that most of the specs of the pickups were pretty much solidified. This is a comparison between a set of pickups that I gauge to be ca. 1973, have trapezoidal magnets, and a resistance of about 800 ohms, vs. 2015 pickups. I don't think you'd hear much difference between 1979 and 2015 pickups. Just saying. |
