| Author | Message | ||
| Bryan Threlkeld (vikingman)
Junior Username: vikingman Post Number: 12 Registered: 8-2002 |
My bottom line is that I'm looking for a bass that can be set-up with very low, "buttery" action with no fret buzz. I've played a few in my life, but they're hard to come by. The ones I've played are all owned by professionals and not sitting in music stores. The first part of the problem is that I realize that many bassists do NOT like their action really low. That means even high-end basses (Alembic, Fodera, etc.) tend to ship with mediocre action. I've now played hundreds of basses in music stores and most range from fair to pathetic in this department. Perhaps the best input I've received in this area was from a guy who works at Larry Morgan Music in Dallas (Phil McNeese). He likes the same "feel" that I do on bass - very low action. And he owns both a 5-string Alembic and 4-string Fodera that are incredible - perhaps the nicest set-ups I've played on. When I asked Phil about this, he said: “I simply won’t buy a bass unless it CAN be set-up with very low action.” Now he has the privilege of working in a music shop and can mess with all of the different high-end basses that come through (adjusting the truss rods, filing the nuts, adjusting the bridge etc.) to see if a particular bass CAN be set up very low without buzzing, but I obviously don't have that ability (nor do 99.9% of bassists). When I asked him how someone like me can know if the bass they buy or order will take a very low-action set-up, he said “you can’t.” Apparently each bass is unique and there's no way Alembic (or any other company) can tell ahead of time how low their action can go before it buzzes (is that correct?). So, the ideal situation would be to find the bass you like in a shop (one that’s already set-up by someone and feels great) - but that could take a lifetime to find. After all, if many players don’t want a real low action, that means factories won’t ship them that way and shops won't set them up that way. SO, is the average Joe just stuck? Do I take out a loan, and plop down $5K to have Alembic build me a bass with no guarantee that it will play the way I'd like? I've thought about calling the Alembic folks and talking about this issue - but decided to drop a thread and get some input from others as well. Maybe Alembic could purposely build a bass from the outset which could take a very low action and assure me that I'll like it??? OR, is this just an area with "no guarantee" (roll of the dice)? Chime in, folks. There's no doubt about the Alembic sound being amazing - but that's not the issue I'm struggling with. I'll even sacrifice the tone I like (if I must) to get the right feel. Thanks for taking the time to hear me out... Bryan | ||
| Michael DeVincenzo (jlpicard)
Junior Username: jlpicard Post Number: 30 Registered: 7-2002 |
How low is low enough? Have you ever measured the action on your basses so we(the club) can get an idea. For me certain techniques work better with the action raised just a little( slap and tap) When I obtained my Europa from Alembic the action was incredibly low. I play with a fairly light touch so that works out well for fingerstyle but I have let the action raise just a touch on its own after a seasonal change so that I have reached a happy medium for all playing techniques. The lowest action I have ever found on a bass right off the wall in a music store was on a Warwick Infinity model. A dust mite doing the limbo could'nt make it under the E string if his little life depended on it!!! Problem with action that low is it won't stay buzz free very long. Oh well. MIKE P.S. Maybey graphite construction would offer a possibility? | ||
| Michael Walker (rockandroller)
New Username: rockandroller Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2002 |
just a guess, but i BET if you sent $5,000 to Alembic, and asked them specifically for a bass with low action, you would GET a bass with low action. that said, i like to play with "the lowest possible action" too, but I dont know the exact spec for "physically lowest possible action on a bass guitar"- maybe 3/32" @ 24th fret? (or is it to be spec'd at the 12th fret?) Anyway I imagine that spec would vary depending on string guage.. if you like really light (loose) strings for easy string bending i think the strings will "flap" more and require higher action. Also its probably dependent on scale length.. you have raised a VERY interesting question! Hmmm - just checked, and 2.0mm is the string-to-fret height of my "Beatle Bass's" E string (@21st fret) - and it still feels a touch 'high' to me | ||
| Bryan Threlkeld (vikingman)
Junior Username: vikingman Post Number: 13 Registered: 8-2002 |
I really do think this is a very interesting and pertinent question to discuss. My bass doesn't have very good action (unless I set it so low that it will buzz like crazy), so that spec won't help. And I have no way to know how high/low the action was on those basses that I played that had very nice action. I would think there are SO many variables (scale length, string tension, string size, curvature of the neck, width of neck, etc.) that it might be difficult to come up with exact specs that would remain true on all basses. But I could be wrong. This may be question for Mica to tackle. I suppose the big question is this: As the bass is constructed, can a manufacturer control how low a bass can be set-up without buzzing? Since I've played many high end basses (Alembic, Smith, Fodera, Tobias - you name it) that apparently could NOT be set very low, it makes me very suspect. Now you may be right, Michael - Alembic might be up to the challenge of creating a bass that could definitely be set with very low action (without buzzing). BTW - how did you measure the action anyway? To do that with any kind of specificity, wouldn't you need some special measuring tool? | ||
| Simon Taylor (staylor)
New Username: staylor Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2002 |
Maybe this is too obvious to point out, but I think the biggest influence on string buzz (aside from a neck that just needs truss-rod adjustment) with low action is going to be the player's style. I received my Series II with extremely low action -- so low that the low B string had significant finger buzz (for me) when I picked up the bass. Raise the action a bit and it was better, but I came to realize that the finger buzz problem on that low B string was more my playing style than "issues" with the neck. I.e., you take a big fat string sitting _very_ close to the fingerboard and strike it hard, and you're going to get some buzz. Think of it like this: the horizontal profile of a string at rest is a flat plane, but a string that is resonating is not a flat plane, it is curved. However, draw a straight line from nut to end of the fingerboard under any string, and you do have a line that sits (at a profile) in a flat plane, i.e. it is not curved. So, lower the action enough, strike the string hard enough, and the string is going to hit the fingerboard (or the frets if you have them). I spent the first 12 or 13 years playing a less than adequate bass through crappy gear and this taught me to play hard (and get lots of blisters on my fingers) and break bass strings. It also meant, I always had to have a high action. In the last couple years, as I've started to get gear (and now an incredible instrument!!) that gives me way more expression, I'm learning to strike the strings easier and let the lighter playing style clean up what's happening right on the instrument while letting the amplifier do its job too. I think the downside is, your friend at the guitar shop is probably right. On the upside, I agree with other posters, that if you go in on an Alembic and specify that you are looking for very low action, they'll work with you to get it. Just be aware that your playing style may wreak a little reverse-limbo havoc upon the string buzz problem. Finally, there's the inevitable setup issue. From one climate to the next, a bass neck is going to move. With this and the rest in mind, it might be worth your peace of mind to consider the possibility of working "more closely" with folks at Alembic by planning one or two visits to the factory. One to sit down, try some basses and talk "action" with their setup folks, and another once your bass is built and has been setup. That way you can give the best input, get some insight into manufacturing and setup issues related to action, and finally feel that action before it gets shipped to a completely different climate (where the neck will move some). It's not that far from TX -- I made a trip down to Santa Rosa myself last year all the way from Juneau, Alaska and there's not even a road out of Juneau ;-) | ||
| Simon Taylor (staylor)
New Username: staylor Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2002 |
I forgot to mention (though it hardly needs saying), the folks at Alembic are masters of customization. If you invest the time to define your dream, they will tell you if they can build it. | ||
| Daniel Tracey (dannobasso)
Junior Username: dannobasso Post Number: 11 Registered: 7-2002 |
This summer I played Trip Wamsley's 8 string Alembic bass at summer Namm. The action was extremely low but stable. The neck was very wide with a zero radius. I also have a stick bass and the feeling was the same. You can't really get lower than that. Whatever you want in low action, you will have to keep up the maintaince. Learn how to set up a bass the way you like. Most cats will only do what you will do anyway and charge you for it even if they don't get it just right. Wood moves, expands, contracts, different woods move at different rates, temp, humidity etc. Also if you get down on it, it's gonna growl! Round wounds, ground wounds, flats, all behave differently, gauges affect everything. Change the strings, change the tension, adjust the neck. But it's all part of the game. Those of us who love Alembics know that any quality instrument has to be cared for. I have eight and make sure that they recieve the attention they need. I just turned on a Fender Jazz player to my excel 5. He didn't play his bass the whole night at the gig. All the other guys on the gig heard the difference right away. I made sure that I checked out the action before I handed it to him. He wants one right away. Mica and company have made the most unusual requests come to life. I think that they can make a bass with low action in mind. Perhaps ebony deluxe laminates will help? Sorry about the ramble but I have a deep love and commitment to these instruments and this company. The word mediocre is so far from my experiences with my instruments. Must have hit a nerve! | ||
| Kris Stewart (elwoodblue)
Junior Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 14 Registered: 6-2002 |
I remember Susan telling of a bass made for John Entwistle that had low, low action. If I recall correctly; after John's specified set-up requirements, the bass would buzz by all who played it at the factory...when John( with his sensitive touch) got a chance to evaluate the bass and set-up...the bass played clear without buzz. You might want to find the specs for that bass for clues towards your goal. Kris | ||
| Valentino Villevieille (valvil)
Junior Username: valvil Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2002 |
To throw in my 2 cents... Simon, Daniel and the 2 Michaels, all raised excellent points. I'd like to add my belief that playing with low action really needs a very soft right hand playing. I go for the lowest action I can get myself, and I tend to play very lightly( not slow , mind you unless that's what the piece calls for); when my friends play my basses, though, they invariably buzz, because their right hand playing is much heavier than mine. Mica once told me that most of the basses Alembic made for John Entwistle had zero radius (like Trip's 8 string Daniel mentioned) and extra low action, with the string almost on the frets, and that he actually had a very light right hand touch. As I wrote this I see that Kris just came up with the same story...  I'd be very surprised if Alembic couldn't do it for you. Valentino | ||
| Mica Wickersham (mica)
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 375 Registered: 6-2000 |
Pretty much everything has been said about the action issue above, but I'll join in as well! In my experience, Simon's observation is true: to play with low action you have to play like you're playing with low action. I have seen players who want to play aggressively with very low action, and seem surprised when the string bottoms out on the top of the fret. You can't get around physics. As far as mediocre action, I just can't agree with that. Even though we make each bass with very low action, we do raise it to a more "medium" height before shipping since that is what most players prefer (unless there has been a specific request). If a customer has a specific request for low action (i.e. a measurement), we can accept the job. It's really how we make all our basses anyway. But you will have to learn how to fine tune it later. With very low action, you will notice even the slightest change in the neck. It's no big deal, just make the adjustments. If you really mess around with string gauges you'll be making lots of adjustments as Daniel noted. Phil's 5-string was custom ordered as far as I know - I think he ordered it from Marcus before he started working there. I also think what you've observing in the stores Brian is that most stores do not maintain basses like a professional player does. I read recently in Bass Player's Entwistle cover story that he said "I like my strings on the other side of the frets" Got a big grin over that one! Long and the short of it... with low action comes much responsibility. I also know of no bass we made that could not be set up to the customer's needs - if they didn't involve breaking the laws of physics, that is! | ||
| Bryan Threlkeld (vikingman)
Junior Username: vikingman Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2002 |
Thanks All!!! Well, these posts have really given me a lot of good information. Let me throw out a few more specific questions, though. 1. Wouldn't you agree with Phil that some basses (Alembics included) can take a lower action set-up (without buzzing) BETTER than others? In other words, all Alembics (or any other bass) are not created equal in their ability to "go low" without buzzing. 2. From what I'm hearing, a "zero radius" neck is a plus for lower action. I'm assuming this is a perfectly flat neck, correct? What are the "drawbacks" to such a neck? Are there any standard model Alembics that come with this style of neck? Appreciate the help, Bryan | ||
| Paul Lindemans (palembic)
Member Username: palembic Post Number: 95 Registered: 9-2002 |
Hi All, here my two pennies (the problem is living in another time zone with a holiday I can check my mails so ...I know ...I'm late!) The neck of my SII 5 string is wide and a play with low action. I have to adjust it regularly with the changing of the seaons. It's something you learn to do. I never play with a really "flat = no curved" neck. I discovered that having a (slight) curve enables the (low) strings to move better in lower playing positions but eases playing in higher position. The problem is that I cannot give my bass to other players in use: they always "buzz". It's matter of touch. I have a friend who says that I'm more "carressing" my strings. Though personally I don't hate a "buzz". It's quite normal I think and usefull. If you hear an acoustic upright at play you also gets a "buzz" and a lot of "wood" noises. A littlle buzz adds to the bass-sound defintion (my opinion). As for Alembic: every Alembic I played (I had 3 and played a lot more) had the same characteristic: I could get a low action, and lower than any other brand I used. On the other hand: with most of the basses I played I was able to get a fairly low action but never with that comfort as the Alembics I played. Paul | ||
| Joey Wilson (bigredbass)
Junior Username: bigredbass Post Number: 15 Registered: 9-2002 |
Brian: No the average Joe (that's me, by the way) is NOT stuck when it comes to action. I've been playing and learning for 25 years, and this is what I can tell you about all this: Neck-thru basses always beat bolt-neck basses. The strings are pulling against the length of the bass, instead of the length of the neck. Besides stability, this does great things for the sound (better fundamentals) and sustain (more). Cheap basses can be good, but they're never great. Low action never worked till I learned to let the volume knob do the work: You can't BEAT a bass and expect low action and no buzz. I had to find a string set I could stay with. I couldn't keep going from RotoSound to GHS to D'Addario without chasing the action around after every change. My ALEMBIC allowed me to freely experiment with action because the dual truss rods and the adjustable nut allow a 'fine-tuneability' available nowhere else. Couple this with the stability offered by the multiple laminate / ebony fingerboard neck, and action adjustment became almost child's play. Try this with a Precision Bass: How many times do you want to pull the pickguard to get to the truss rod or replace the nut 'till you get it right? Those multiple laminations make the neck much more stable; that is, the wood moves much less over time due to temperature and humidity. And different woods combined are better than multiple laminations of the same wood. I NEVER PERFECTED MY ACTION UNTIL I LEARNED TO DO IT MYSELF. There are great guitar techs out there, yet few of them understand that a bass is MUCH HARDER to get low and right than a guitar. Read the Alembic tech section, buy Dan Erlewine's book, whatever it takes. My hands 'learned' to feel action changes, and my eyes 'learned' to sight down the neck as I got better at doing it myself. A neck works best a perfectly straight. Most people are gonna tell you 'it's got to have bow in it'. They are wrong. You only let just enough relief back in to cure any buss that's left. I prefer a larger radius (flatter) fingerboard. I would not want a FLAT fingerboard. What to buy? Get something that feels right, right neck feel, right weight, looks cool. And believe me: I've played them all, and there is no better bass built by better people who treat their product like their children than ALEMBIC. Joey Wilson | ||
| Mica Wickersham (mica)
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 379 Registered: 6-2000 |
For Bryan - 1. Sure, they aren't all equal, they are handmade, by their nature each one is unique. But the action can be set very low in qualified hands. Again, if you have a specific requirement, just inform us of the measurement before we build. 2. I suppose it's more accurate to describe Trip's fingerboard as a 180 degree radius, or completely flat. That isn't a description of the relief of the neck, but the surface in which the frets are installed. All our basses and guitars come standard 12 inch fingerboard radius. I asked the James and Jon in the setup department about advantages/disadvantages of no radius. They report that there's no disadvantage, but it does feel different to play. Especially for guitar, the radius makes some chords easier to play. I would not recommend you get a custom made instrument with a flat fingerboard before you try it. The fingerboard radius is independent of the action. Have you been able to determine the action you prefer? Maybe Phil can measure it on his bass and gimme a call. | ||
| Bryan Threlkeld (vikingman)
Junior Username: vikingman Post Number: 15 Registered: 8-2002 |
GREAT advice! Keep em' coming. These posts have really helped me out. Now if I could only get my hands on these different variations. It's one thing to talk about it, but it's quite another to actually feel the different specs we're talking about. What is Dan Erlewine's book about (and what's the title of the book)? And are Alembics the only basses with adjustable nuts? That sounds like a great idea - you'd think others would clue in. Mica, I'm VERY impressed with your willingness to do whatever it takes to make sure I get a bass I'm happy with. I've contacted other dealers who just tell me that their basses are the best - BUT they won't customize because they have the "perfect bass" and "they know what's best for the customer." So my next dilemna is playing on enough Alembics to get a feel for what I need. I'll check with Phil regarding his Fodera and Alembic basses and see what radius he has and the measurements of his action as well. Thanks again - and keep tossing advice my way. I like to hear a variety of different takes on the issue. Bryan | ||
| Joey Wilson (bigredbass)
Junior Username: bigredbass Post Number: 16 Registered: 9-2002 |
Bryan: The Dan Erlewine book is "The Guitar Player Repair Guide" by GPI Books/Miller Freeman Books. ISBN 0-87930-291-7, $22.95. You can find at the mall bookstores or smarter music stores. It has a terrific section on bass action. It's thoughtfully written and understandable for novices to the subject (after all, even I understood it!), and yet thorough in its technical explanations. The only other bass in wide circulation with an adjustable nut is Warwick. It is, however, an inferior design: The nut is actually fixed. There is a phillips head screw in the bottom of each nut slut that screws in and out to provide up and down. ALEMBIC's design is superior. The nut rides on a brass bass, and the height adjustment screws are between the strings. My five string has the center screw (which LOCKS the bridge in place) in the bottom of the slot for the A-string, but the hole for the 5/64" allen screw is tiny. And the bass side is separate from the treble side for extremely precise fine tuning of the action on the multi-string basses(5-strings and more). How does this help your search for low action? The nut can now tilt up on either side (usually a little on the bass side), yet it still maintains the same curve as the neck radius. You always want the nut and the bridge to mirror the neck radius. At the other end of the neck, the bridge is built to the same radius as well. I'm hopelessly sold on Alembics, not just because of what they are. I am always delighted by the insight manifested in the construction and features of these magnificent instruments. And as you can see, this community in The Club is always willing to help. Besides, how often can you own a legend, much less have a legend built just for you? Best Regards Joey Wilson (bigredbass) | ||
| Michael Paskel (Mikey) (pookeymp)
Member Username: pookeymp Post Number: 55 Registered: 7-2002 |
Hey Guys, While talking about bass action, maybe I can be offered a suggestion here for my action. I as well, like an extremely low action. I can't speak in terms of measurements, but low enough that she's clean when I'm caressing the strings, but if I dig in she will buzz and growl a bit, which I like (Hey Paul...another point we agree on). This is the way my Tobias is setup and I love it. On my Mark King, I have my bridge dropped as low as she will go. I like my neck very straight, which she is. While the action is pretty close and comfortable to play with, there is absolutely no buzz and I can't dig in as much because the action is not quite as tight as my Tobias. The problem is I don't have anywhere else to go with the bridge or the nut. I'm not crazy about the idea of filing down the string saddles or shaving the sustain block at a machine shop, which was suggested by another bassist, but would that be the only way or are there any other options. She doesn't need to go much at all, just a hair (I know this isn't very technical). Any thoughts. Mikey/ P.S. I'm using D'Addario RoundWounds Super Soft (40-60-75-95-125) | ||
| Bryan Threlkeld (vikingman)
Junior Username: vikingman Post Number: 16 Registered: 8-2002 |
Mikey, You've brought up another very good topic related to this issue, and that is STRING TENSION. Since you mentioned your Tobias bass, it reminded me of a conversation I had with him on this topic. I had Mike build me a bass ~20 years ago, when I lived in L.A. I asked him why the strings on some of his basses seemed to have a very "taunt" feel, while others had a "looser" feel. Since he was using the same gauge GHS Boomers on all of his basses, it was NOT the strings that made the difference - it came down to the design of the bass. As I recall, his reply was that it had to do with various issues (wood settling, etc.), but that he had no way to gauge this until the bass was actually "born." Is this the case? I personally like a looser string tension overall because I usually play over the back pickup (closest to bridge), which is naturally a very taunt part of the string. I noticed that Alembic places their back pickup VERY close to the bridge, so often times it's TOO taunt for me to play there. I'm sure Alembic could reposition the bridge/or pickup so that I could play over it where it's not quite so taunt, but would that affect the "Alembic sound?" Mica, have you found any way to control how taunt or loose the strings will set-up on the bass prior to it being produced? What does control this (other than string brand/gauge)? Finally, I would suspect that the taunter the string, the lower the action would truly be. However, the looser the string, the easier it would actually be to play. Am I correct? Another topic to explore. Thanks for all the great input! Bryan | ||
| Paul Lindemans (palembic)
Member Username: palembic Post Number: 100 Registered: 9-2002 |
Hey Again, the place WHERE you play the strings has his influence on vibration on the strings (I guess) and so the "buzz" you get. I'm not playing above the bridge pick-up but on every bass I lay my hands on I play on the same place wich is rather close to the bridge. Mark King f.i. plays also that way and he uses very "light" strings (an E string of .90 I think). On the other hand Stanley plays over the neck and gets a very typical sound also created by the (deliberate wanted) sound of the buzzing. Armand Sabal Lecco plays also more to the neck on his Alembic, Fender and Sadowski but I've already seen that he is merely "moving around" in "touch place" to create a specific sound. Something you can hear very good when playing an Alembic: changing "plucking place" immediately changes your sound. Paul | ||
| Michael Walker (rockandroller)
New Username: rockandroller Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2002 |
according to basic physics, playing closer to the fretboard (where, - unless you are fretting at the 24th fret, - the string is more "free" to vibrate) can indeed cause a larger "excursion" (amplitude of vibration) - all things being equal with regards to picking force. However, if you pick there 'more gently', you can get all the "tone" of that area (its "bassier", among other things) without all the rattle! I have noticed that the whole length of the string has different harmonics depending on where you pluck it... so if you learn to play with a very light touch - then you can use the whole range to its maximum. I think the trick is just turning yer amp up a VERY LOUD, and getting used to picking VERY SOFT - then you will get maximum 'buzzlessness' out of yer low action. that said, the better the bass is built (and adjusted) the lower that 'maximum low action' will be... ********************************** There must be some "PHYSICAL LIMIT" based on scale length and string guauge - that is, for a given gauge & length, (and tuned to 'concert pitch') there must be a point where: If plucking force is defined within a given range of forces* - hard enough to excite the string to desireable amplitude (loud enough to give decent sustain, as well as good signal-to-noise-ratio for the pickups, etc) and where plucking any softer will not cause the string to vibrate audibly. *Hopefully (for musical purposes) there is a nice 60dB or more of dynamic range possible! THEN, at the "maximum" of the given "desireable' pluck attack dynamics, the string is moving a measureable distance in its ampitude. FINALLY, the bass is set up in such a way that this amplitude of string excursion does not bottom out on any of the frets! I'm sure some bass-playing physicist could run some experiments, and give a 'definitive mathematical answer' to this age-old problem! Mind you - the answer would only be suitable to those who prefer the lowest possible string action, and are willing to utilize a certain technique in order to get it! I wonder if that magic number is hidden in the Alembic archives somewhere :-) | ||
| Kris Stewart (elwoodblue)
Junior Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 15 Registered: 6-2002 |
hmmm... I always wanted a very long scale guitar (as long as I could still hold the first few frets reasonably),with huge strings, and a tight stable neck to deal with it. The heavy strings would have be tighter to compensate for the length and mass. Also the winding on the tuning post would have to be done well (hopefully a given). All else equal; scale length it seems is what my first concern would be in minimizing buzz when the tune requires a clean sound,...if I thinking right ; ) ... loving my Alembic Baritone for those reasons. Kris | ||
| Bryan Threlkeld (vikingman)
Junior Username: vikingman Post Number: 17 Registered: 8-2002 |
That brings up another question :-) TRUE OR FALSE - The longer the scale the tighter the string tension? Mica, have you found any way to control how taunt or loose the strings will set-up on a bass prior to it being produced? What does control this (other than string brand/gauge)? Bryan | ||
| Bob Novy (bob)
New Username: bob Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2002 |
Talk about "buzz"... lots of good observations buried in here, amidst quite a bit of confusion. I was hoping to wait until I actually have my own Alembic (should be a matter of weeks at this point), but can't bear to remain on the sidelines any longer, so let me take a stab at focusing the discussion a bit. The original question had to do with how to achieve the lowest possible action, and so far we've covered construction, setup, string selection, playing style, and of course physics - which is probably the right set of topics. Construction: Mica sort of said as much, but to be clear I think it's fair to say Alembic is not going to build a bass differently depending on whether you prefer high or low action. They'll set it up specially if you ask, but there's no need for a fundamentally different design. You need a strong, uniform neck (all frets exactly the same height, no weird twist or anything), securely attached to the body, but you'll get this on any Alembic. On a lesser instrument, the frets may not be even, or more likely you'll get some bumps or dips in the neck itself, particularly with higher tension strings (and more truss rod), which will give you buzz in some particular locations before others, so you won't be able to get the overall action as low. If you want to push the limits of low action, you'll have less tolerance for environmentally-induced shifts of the neck, so you would probably benefit a little - but only in the sense of having to adjust it less often - from a neck-through design and having some laminates in the neck. Frankly, you can meet these basic requirements for a lot less money than an Alembic will cost you, if you know what to look for and have enough patience. But Mica is absolutely right, that if you just walk into a guitar shop and try things, most of them aren't going to be set up very well, and even if they are it will probably be with a more medium action, so that it's "easier" to play for an average customer. (Mikey's case of having the bridge as low as it will go sounds a bit extreme - I suspect something is wrong here, not that the bass wasn't built to support low action.) Setup: Joey is absolutely right, you'll never be happy until you learn to do your own setups (unless maybe you have a dedicated guitar tech who understands and can mimic your playing style perfectly...). It's *not* that hard, just takes a little time to learn, and is definitely worthwile. And like he says, settling on a set of strings is a big help. Once you get things to your liking, about all you should need to do is adjust the truss rods a little for seasonal (or traveling) changes, whereas switching to a completely different set of strings is probably going to cost you several hours, over the course of a few days, by the time you get everything tweaked just right again (bridge height, intonation, pickup height, in addition to neck relief). Let's try to clear up any remaining confusion about neck radius vs. relief. When you sight up the neck, radius is the curve you see perpendicular to the length of the neck, i.e. in the usual case the middle strings stick up higher than the outer strings, and the neck radius (and bridge and nut) generally follow this curve. Classical guitars, and Trip's bass, are flat in this respect and may be said to have zero, or perhaps infinite radius (sorry Mica, I'm not sure "180 degrees" is an appropriate term here). Unless you have a very unusual playing style, you almost certainly want a more typical radius of 12 to 15 inches (12 is the Alembic standard, which seems just fine for most people). Neck radius is absolutely *not* related to action, assuming everything else is properly constructed and adjusted. Relief is the term used to describe the concave bow you see sighting up the length of the neck. A neck which is setup perfectly straight is said to have zero relief - you could lay a straightedge across the frets and every one would just barely touch. You normally want a *tiny* bit of relief (even "perfectly straight" Joey says you "let just enough relief back in..."). One way of measuring this is to hold down a string at the 1st and 24th frets, and then measure the gap between the string and the 7th fret (not quite the middle - normally you'll get a little more bow up towards the end of the neck, which is where you want it anyway). Buy a cheap capo to hold down the strings at the first fret, use one hand to hold down a string at the 24th, and then try slipping a playing card between the string and 7th fret, without displacing the string. Personally, I'm happiest with just a touch more relief than one card, but definitely not two (my deck of 52 measures 15mm, so my card is not quite .012 inches). You should check both outer strings, and they should be close (though if necessary, favor more on the fat strings because they're going to move more). Note that by holding down the string at both ends, we've eliminated nut and bridge height as factors. Other than putting on the strings you want to use, the first step is always to adjust the truss rod tension to get the relief pretty close to right, and then you can start working on the other stuff. I'm not going to get into that, just wanted to give you some idea that this really isn't very hard - by all means pick up a book and give it a try. I never even considered "letting" someone else set up my basses or guitars for over 25 years. If you were trying to characterize the action you prefer, I think the most useful measurements would be the amount of neck relief, and the gaps between the outermost strings at the 24th fret, and possibly the strings you use. (Nut height mostly affects only notes at the first few frets, so it's somewhat less critical assuming it's not grossly off.) Just to throw out some numbers, I'm using Thomastik jazz flatwounds, relief is about .013-.015", and string height averages about 3/32" at the 24th fret (mine happens to be fretless Carvin). I play fingerstyle with a fairly light touch, and consider this to be moderately, but not extremely, low action. (Mica - would you share with us the specs for your standard "medium" height setup?) String tension: is determined *solely* by scale length, pitch, and the design of the string. Nothing else matters. In fact, the only thing that matters about the string itself is the mass. There's a good discussion of the math involved at http://www.mcdonaldstrings.com/String_tensions.pdf (The problem with doing the calculations yourself is that you really need to know the mass of the string, but if the manufacturer publishes the tensions you can work backwards to calculate that. I did this myself when trying to figure out how much more tension I'd see by putting a 34" scale set on a 35" instrument.) Note that what counts about the string is the mass, not necessarily the gauge. There's enough variation in materials and design, even between different types of sets from the same manufacturer, that two strings of the same gauge may result in different tensions (a flat wound will typically have more mass than a roundwound of the same gauge, because it's "filled in" with metal). Anyway, assuming the same style of string from some particular manufacturer, putting the same set on a longer scale instrument (with the same tuning) will increase the string tension, as will using heavier gauges of the same strings, either of which will allow for slightly lower action because the string excursion will be less (for identical plucking, etc.). Note that this does *not* imply that a 32" scale instrument is going to have less tension or higher action than a 34" - you'd most likely use a set of strings which were designed for that scale length, and they'll probably be smaller gauge or otherwise constructed somewhat differently to have less mass. String tension is simple physics. Assuming the same scale length and tuning, a given set of strings will have exactly the same tension no matter who builds the bass or how it's constructed (assuming you don't make the neck out of rubber or something). Playing style: it seems everyone understands that if you play hard, you'll need more neck relief and/or higher action and/or more string tension to avoid buzz, and that if you want low action, you're going to have to be gentle with it. But there are some slightly off-topic comments in here worth elaborating on. Michael W. mentions he's "noticed that the whole length of the string has different harmonics depending on where you pluck it", which is an excellent observation. In fact, the distribution of harmonics you get also depends on *how* you pluck it - if you pluck it in the same position, you'll get a wider or richer set of harmonics by using the broad side of your thumb (a wide plectrum) as compared to the sharp edge of a pick, because it excites the string differently. Now, Bryan mentions that he likes to play over the bridge pickup, and wonders about moving it to a place where he prefers the tension of the string, and whether that would affect the sound. Yes, moving the pickup would affect the sound, but we need to consider that as a completely separate issue from where the string is plucked. It's really not at all like putting your mouth closer to the microphone, for example. Where and how you pluck determines the relative strengths of the different harmonics which are set in motion. Pickup position determines which of those harmonics are "heard", and at what relative strength. If you put a pickup under the 12th fret and played an open string, it would not pick up the 2nd harmonic at all, because the 2nd harmonic has a node (a place where the string doesn't move) right there in the middle of the string. (You know this, of course, because you can play the harmonic and actually leave your finger on the string as it continues to sound, right?) So generally what you want to do is position the pickups at positions which are a good compromise for picking up a wide mix of harmonics. And it's always a compromise, because if you did the best you could for an open string, it would be quite a bit different as you fretted notes higher up the neck, and the harmonic nodes start getting more bunched up. There's some interesting stuff on pickup placement and harmonic sensitivity at http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponse/ - you can skip the math and just look at the pictures, and get a pretty good idea of what's going on here. For anyone who wants to get really deep into how strings vibrate (among other things), a classic reference is "Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics" by Arthur Benade. Unfortunately it barely mentions electric guitars (and not solid bodies at all), but many of the principles of pianos and violins are relevant to some degree. (Caution: it's a pretty serious book - I've read it twice now, and still haven't grasped everything in there...). I know this has been an outrageously long post. I hope it's helpful, but if you feel I've wasted your time or space, go ahead and let me have it. -Bob | ||
| Mark DuFresne (markus)
New Username: markus Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2002 |
Geez Bob. Waste of time? No way! Was there ANYBODY out there who just couldn't help reading Bob's post to the end? Mark | ||
| Michael Paskel (Mikey) (pookeymp)
Member Username: pookeymp Post Number: 62 Registered: 7-2002 |
I certainly couln't stop reading it...I was in the middle of watching "ER" and decided to check the club real quick during commercials...but I can't leave now...I think I'm gonna re-read it to make sure I got it all. Mikey/ | ||
| Paul Lindemans (palembic)
Intermediate Member Username: palembic Post Number: 106 Registered: 9-2002 |
Well Bob, I didn't read it but it was the second info of the club that I immediately printed out to be with my bass in a plastic envelope. (The first printout was the post of Mica about how to "tweak" the humcancelling device with the four small screws on the back of a SI or SII). Great info! For Bob (and all inputs her in this club) 3 x Hurray!. Bob it was defintely more than 2 cents! Paul | ||
| Wayne McLemore (wayne)
Junior Username: wayne Post Number: 28 Registered: 5-2002 |
I'm with Paul - this got copied into Word and printed out for a permanent file. Thanks Bob!!! C-Ya..........wayne | ||
| Bryan Threlkeld (vikingman)
Junior Username: vikingman Post Number: 20 Registered: 8-2002 |
Fantastic post, Bob. Now let me make sure I'm clear on a few issues, by asking a few probing questions... I'll spread these over several posts. I may be off base, so I appreciate anyone who can help me to see the error(s) in my thinking. Bob said: >> to be clear I think it's fair to say Alembic is not going to build a bass differently depending on whether you prefer high or low action. << But why couldn't Alembic (or any other company) purpose to build a bass that will allow for lower action? I would think they COULD do this in a number of ways, including: 1. A more rigid neck. You can build a more solid neck by using multiple laminates, harder woods, multiple truss rods, graphite reinforcements, etc. Ken Smith mentioned that the consistent "low action" found on his basses is in part due to his ultra-strong graphite re-inforced necks (made with unique high-quality material, that others simply don't use). 2. Smaller frets. I've heard that filing the frets is one way to get lower action 3. Adjustable nut. What about a nut that could adjust up/down for EACH individual string. What do you think? Bryan | ||
| Joey Wilson (bigredbass)
Junior Username: bigredbass Post Number: 20 Registered: 9-2002 |
Bryan: While Ken builds a nice guitar, the graphite reinforcements are so 'unique'? You can buy these at several luthier supply houses, and are common in lots of basses (Carvin, for instance). There is no more rigid neck than graphite (Steinberger, Modulus, the ALEMBIC graphite neck instruments from the 70's). Doesn't guarantee low action. ALEMBIC also offers the stiffest lamination I can think of: The ebony/maple laminated necks with the ebony fingerboard. None of these guarantee low action just from the stiffness. Filing frets is not the same as smaller frets. Filing frets is a bad idea: If you ever need a fret filing to eliminate worn spots, you have nothing left. The adjustable nut needs fo follow the curve of the fingerboard radius for the best action. Slotting the nut when built handles that best. Bob: The bigredbass: 15 thousandths over the first fret, 20 thousandths at the twelfth under the B, 15 under the G, and 3/32" over the 24th fret both sides, 5/16" over each pickup on both sides. I prefer a little taller nut height to set up the rest of the neck, and use automotive-style feeler guages. Once you have your Alembic, when the time comes, the adjustable nut and twin truss rods make adjustments SO easy. I'm SO spoiled by these features. Congratulations. Best Regards, Joey Wilson | ||
| Bryan Threlkeld (vikingman)
Junior Username: vikingman Post Number: 21 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hey Joey, Thanks for the input! When I talked to Ken, he said that his graphite (or perhaps an alloy used in his neck) was indeed a special stock (used by the Space Program), and that he rejects material that the other companies use. At least that's what I understood him to say. Did I understand you right in that you use "automotive-style feeler gauges" to measure the distances? And how did you do it exactly? Thanks Joey! This board is INCREDIBLE! I've learned more in the past week than I have in years of talking with other bassists. Bryan | ||
| Bryan Threlkeld (vikingman)
Junior Username: vikingman Post Number: 22 Registered: 8-2002 |
BTW - will small frets improve your action? and does Alembic still put graphite in their necks (as a standard) today? If not, what is the DISadvantage to graphite? Thanks all! Bryan | ||
| David Fung (dfung60)
New Username: dfung60 Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2002 |
Lots on this already, but I'll chime in some too. I play pretty hard, so "buttery smooth" is NOT equal to "low" for me. But regardless of your playing style, you do the same things to tweak your action for perfect playability. Your ability to lower the action is bounded by your tolerance for fret buzz. When you pluck (or pick) the string, it vibrates perpendicularly from the direction you hit it. If you pluck exactly parallel to the face of the bass, then the string's motion is side to side across the neck. If you're not exactly parallel, then some amount of the string motion will be up-and-down relative to the fingerboard. That up-and-down motion over the frets is where fret buzz comes from. The harder you hit the strings, the more up-and-down motion you'll have. And the lower you set your action, the more likely that the up-and-down motion will hit the frets causing buzz. This is why you generally dial in some relief or "bow" into the neck. If the neck/frets were perfectly flat, then it's highly likely to buzz since any up-and-down motion will clank on the frets. So, you dial a bit of relief in which in effect makes a little more space between the vibrating string and the fingerboard - voila, less buzz. For most quality basses (all Alembics qualify here), the truss rod(s) are key to getting the action the way you want. This lets you dial in the exact amount of relief that you need for your playing style, strings, and the climatic conditions you're playing in. Too much relief and you won't buzz, but the action will feel high and slow in the middle registers. Get it just right, and it'll feel low, fast, and buzz free. Learning to do the truss rod adjustment is one of the best things you can do as it will allow you to maintain optimal action regardless of the humidity or temperature. Alembics are really superior instruments from a workmanship standpoint, so it's unlikely you will encounter some of the many neck problems that prevent the truss rod from tuning your action. With Alembics, you have an excellent chance of getting properly aged, straight neck wood, properly assembled, properly levelled, etc. With cheap instruments, the effect of the truss rod might not be even across the length of the neck - you won't get low action if your truss rod makes an S-bend in the neck short of a refret! Straight from the factory, they would normally have done an excellent "regular" setup, but if you live in a place with radically different climate than when they did the setup, you'll need to at least tweak truss rods for best action. If you really want to go super low, then you will need to make sure everything is super precise. When they build the instrument, the fingerboard is ground to precise flatness, then they insert the frets then grind the fret tops to precise flatness as well. If the fret tops aren't precisely flat (either due to a grinding error, fingerboard error, or a twist that developed after assembly), then the high fret will limit how low your action can be set. In this case, you should take your bass to a qualified luthier who lives in your geographic area. They'll do a fret "grind" or "level" which will bring everything into alignment. You should pick somebody good who lives near you so they'll be doing the setup in the same humidity and conditions that you'll be playing in. Then your setup should be optimal again. Depending on your playing style, you will also experience fret wear. When that happens, you'll be buzzing again, since there are low and high points over the various frets. Usually fret levelling will fix this, but eventually, you'll need new frets. When doing a fret job, they'll pull all the frets, sand the fingerboard flat, refret and level the frets. Alembic uses great materials, but hold on to your hat if you need a fret job on your Series II with LEDs - you won't be a happy guy. Once you get the frets level and relief set properly, you'll be in business. Given good construction (e.g., working truss rod), this is all that it takes to get a perfect "pro" setup. Most players are keyed into all this stuff, and it's just easier to try a lot of instruments until you find one that happens to be right for your style and location. But with a little work, any of them could be perfectly tailored for you. Just a couple of other notes... Somebody asked about stiffer necks. That's isn't required for good action, but makes it a lot easier to maintain. Even small changes in humidity and temperature can effect your relief - since the wood is a natural material, you won't know how subject it is until the neck is built. Adding laminations or stiffners can help resist some of the environmental stuff and make it easier to maintain. A graphite neck (a la Modulus) is pretty much impervious to regular environmental conditions, so once you get it set up, it generally will stay that way. The caveat there is that the Modulus neck didn't have a truss rod until recently which means that once you built the neck, the relief wasn't going to be easy to change without grinding it into the frets. For most people, I think that was undesireable, which is part of the reason Alembic doesn't offer them anymore. I speak from experience here as the owner of a graphite Series II. The action from the day I picked it up was always buzzy due to lack of relief during construction and it's so stiff that you could tune it up a third with no visible change in the relief. When I got it I wasn't as sensitive to this, but over the years found I wasn't playing it much because it wasn't that comfortable to play. I recently had this cured by a super-duper fret grind that was done to match the relief to my main bass. The luthier that did this grind is the custom shop builder at Modulus, but with the LEDs, he told me that he wouldn't do it if he had to actually refret - too risky. It's great now though. Somebody also asked about the importance of a flat fingerboard to low action. This shouldn't be an issue on basses, but flatter fingerboards are pretty common on shred guitars. It's for a totally different reason though. The curvature of the fingerboard is there to make it more comfortable for you to play, especially when playing barre chords on guitar. More curve makes it easier for you to barre successfully. But when you bend the high-E string across the neck, that curve will cause fret buzz as the string crosses over the center of the neck (think about it for a while and it'll make sense). So a lot of technical players went to a flatter neck to avoid this problem. Of course, it's much harder to barre then, but this doesn't seem to be much of a problem for Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, or Buckethead. Unless you bend sideways across the neck of your bass a lot, it won't matter. There was also a question about small frets. This is also mostly a guitar thing, since your fingertips actually touch the fingerboard on the thinner strings. A taller, thin fret is a different feel. Unlikely you press your string down that hard on bass! David Fung | ||
| Joey Wilson (bigredbass)
Junior Username: bigredbass Post Number: 22 Registered: 9-2002 |
Bryan: The feeler guages are an assortment of thin metal blades shaped like popsicle sticks. They are made to a thickness that's marked on each one. You can pick these up wherever auto parts are sold for a couple of bucks. (They're from the bygone days of measuring the gap on the rotor in the distributor on your engine, now replaced by various electronic spark systems.) Like I mentioned, we use these to measure the height between string and fret along the neck, once the bass is tuned to pitch and capoed in several spots. Using these measurements is the way we can work towards a particular setup. As you can see, my particular setup is a set of numbers. Therefore, I can always achieve my setup. No guesswork. ALEMBIC could build me another bass, set it up to these numbers, and it would come out of the box ready to go. I'm pleased you're learning. There's a LOT of BS out there. Learning the hard facts of it all will make you a much smarter consumer, and a much happier player. Remember, none of us learned this overnight. But believe me, if I can learn this, anyone can ! Best Regards, Joey Wilson | ||
| Bob Novy (bob)
New Username: bob Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2002 |
Joey - I remember the days of tuning the dual carbs (among other things) on my MGB/GT, and a Triumph Spitfire before that. So I'm certain there's at least one set of feeler gauges out in the garage, but they're pretty grungy... and even new, I still wouldn't like sliding them against my fretless fingerboard. The card trick is enough to get me close enough to fine-tune by feel, and everybody can find a deck of cards, right? Certainly the gauges would be a bit more precise, if I had to specify an action for someone. I thought about doing that with my order, but figured that no matter what Alembic did I'm going to be messing with it myself anyway. And though Mica drops these little hints from time to time ("Maybe on your next one we'll do..."), I'm really not even dreaming about getting another one. | ||
| Paul Lindemans (palembic)
Intermediate Member Username: palembic Post Number: 111 Registered: 9-2002 |
Hi friends, maybe tghis weekend there were some people like me sitting down with that old faithfull bass and see what could be done at the action of the bass putting it low for easy play and the less possible buzz. Anyway ...I did. Bob ... I followed your steps and it was a fine thing to do. BUT (for some reasons there is always a "but" with me ...well apart from THAT but ;-)). Measurements on the B and G string on my SII 5 string were really "clowe" and without to much buzz or at least a "buzz" I could control by my playing style and fingertouch. But it didn't worl for the A string (who is rught in the middle of the neck as you all know). The A string was'nt really "buzzing" but had "clapped" (a nasty claping sound) when I plucked that string. How can that be? I'm a litlle nervous now because I think I have to loosen it all up a bit again and concentrate myself on that A string. Someone an idea. Bob? Paul | ||
| Bob Novy (bob)
New Username: bob Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2002 |
(thought I successfully posted this several hours ago, but guess not) Paul, Glad to hear you're experimenting with setup. I think I understand what you mean by the "clapping" sound, but just to be sure - it's like when the entire length of the string slams against the frets, or fingerboard, just when you first strike it. A good example would be when you play an open string (unlikely to buzz) and strike it in such a way that you push the string down hard towards the neck, rather than pulling it across horizontally. Or like when you're putting on new strings and haven't got them up to pitch yet. Assuming that's what you're describing, it's most likely because your A string is lower tension than the others. You could confirm this with a simple experiment. Try tuning the A up to A# or maybe even B, and see if it gets better. Conversely, tune your B or E down a half step or so and see if they start "clapping". (I think of this as "fretboard slap", anyone know a better or more offical term?) If so, then lookup the tensions for the strings you're using (on the package, or maybe on the web) and see how they compare for the different strings. Every set has different variations from string to string, sometimes radically so. If you can confirm it's a tension problem, then you may wish to consider different strings, or even just a slightly different A. If not, I'm sure you'll be back with another "but"... -Bob | ||
| Paul Lindemans (palembic)
Intermediate Member Username: palembic Post Number: 115 Registered: 9-2002 |
Hi Bob, not much "buts" this time. As a matter of fact I INDEED switched strings: from d'Addario soft gauge roundwound to DR some special thight wounds with 120-100-80-60-40 as measurements. It indeed happened for the first time with these strings. They have a pretty feel and are sounding very "even" wherever you play it. I'll try out what you suggest and come back with the info. Thanks again! Paul PS: any news from your new bass yet? | ||
| Brian Ceasar (bbe1020)
Member Username: bbe1020 Post Number: 59 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hello Paul, I must have missed your post in the past, but I found it while searching the archives. I'm assuming that you are still using the DR strings you mention in your post, right? I'm using the THOMASTIK POWERBASS strings on my series II, and I couldn't be ANY happier with my bass. These strings are low tension, with the following gauge: (B)119, (E)107,(A)98, (D)68, (G)47. The strings are made in AUSTRIA, so you should be able to get a set with no problem. A music store in my area, (the ONLY dealer in my area)is listed here: www.centralmusicwarehouse.com (Laron Young)When your DR's go flat, try a set of the THOMASTIK. Hey Paul, I also recently changed the hat knobs on my series II, and replaced them with the collet style knobs. Now we can say that our basses are related! LOL | ||
| Paul Lindemans (palembic)
Advanced Member Username: palembic Post Number: 257 Registered: 9-2002 |
Friend Brian! Long time no see (HA). How did it go with the F1-X / F2-B struggle? For me there's a SF-2 and a DS5-R on his way as you propably know. Next step will be F1-X and Power amp. Faaaaaaaaaa-aaaaaaar in the future. I don't use the DR strings anymore (I sended my other set to brother Mikey). I re-use the d'Addario soft gauges again and things are a lot better. Those TOMASTIK I'm gonna try. I think I now a place where I can find them! BTW: The "collet" style are those from Switzerland? Mica said that the knobs on Bonnie are Swiss made. So they make something else as pocket-knifes. Paul |
