| Author | Message | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4886 Registered: 6-2002 |
"Cutting through the mix"is one of those phrases I see written a lot about our basses and other makes of basses that I just assume I understood what it meant, however after playing a jazz funk gig at a club with PA last week and being told by a pro bass player that my Series II bass sounded just ordinary and wasn't cutting through the mix well, I started to wonder if I really understand exactly what that means and what I need to do to make my bass sound better out front through a P.A. system. All the gigs I go to and records I listen to that have a bass instrument, I can hear the bass so that would mean the bass is cutting through the mix.... right? Not always with the clarity to hear every note being played, I might add, so isn't cutting through the mix merely a product of what the sound guy/engineer wants to bring forward with volume or tone rather than the characteristics of a particular instrument? For an example If I listen to Stanley Clarke on record, he is right up front in the mix and is for most of his stuff the dominant instrument even when he is not the soloist at any given point. Another alembic player Jimmy Johnson when I've listened to his playing on record or you tube, not a lot to my shame, he does not tend to dominate the sound on the record in the same way, he sits more in with the band but still comes across clearly and I can hear exactly what he is doing. So for me, both are coming through the mix effectively. However some guitar dominated heavy rock music can have the bass way back in the mix but that would be because the band wanted it that way rather than the bass guitar not being able to cut through, i assume. So what my question is really what practically "Cutting through the mix" really means and what do I need to do to make that happen. Most of my gigs are reggae so for those I use a very small part of the alembic spectrum however on the other gigs I use much more of the range of the bass and this is where I want to be sure my alembic sound is being heard for what it is and not being eq'd to sound like something it's not like an F or P bass if it's going through a PA system. (Message edited by jazzyvee on January 27, 2016) | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 2545 Registered: 9-2002 |
It's a loaded question. OF COURSE you're going to hear Stanley: Despite how gifted his sidemen are or have been, SC is the draw and he's paying the cost to be the boss. You wouldn't expect him to be 'even' in the mix with the band, who'd pay to see that? Jimmy is of course exercising the discipline of anyone who'd done lots of recording: He's very carefully staying in his own space to get that separation. Let everybody play in the same register or octave, and it's a big blur. That he's in a band full of session guys who also know this helps a lot as well. He even plays thru his in-ears or wedge only, as he's repeated so many times that a big amp would only complicate the out-front mix, and color so many of the onstage mics. This adds to his presence in fronting the house mix an isolated signal. And in both cases, you're dealing with top-shelf front- and monitor-mixers and professional reinforcement. I often think Entwistle was the most extreme example. His tone was essentially clavinet-like, and while it works for The Who, if I'd ever showed up on a gig with that tone, I'd have been sent home. But because of who he and they were, it REALLY cut thru the mix, as that's how they wanted it. When I first came to Nashville, I went to a club and this guy was playing a beautiful Modulus five, running thru a pream/power amp into a pair of the Hartke cabs, the good ones with the 4-10's and the 5" driver instead of a horn. Was absolutely the most perfect, bright Rotosound tone I ever heard live, and yet it provided utterly no bottom to the band, no foundation with the kick for the rest of the mix to lay upon. Wonderful but useless. All you can really do: Aside from the reggae dates and their 'flatwound LaBella' tone required for the genre, you stay away from big EQ pushes. You want enough low end to anchor the band, a little low mids, and enough top end to get articulation. I agree with Mica that too much mids is just not helpful, and tends to stack up with the guitars or bright keyboards. Stay in your lane like Jimmy. After that it's a crapshoot. How much PA are you working with? Does the FOH know his butt from a hole in the ground? Are you overwhelming the mix from your stage amp? Is it adding just enough to couple with the PA to screw up your tone? Are you trying to maintain a highly sophisticated tone thru a dud system? And on and on and on . . . . . I don't envy you as I've been there, and I'm very happy not to face it any more. In twenty years, I was truly happy with my tone on stage a handful of times, and never, ever was able to consistently reach any kind of equilibrium. And after it's all said and done, unless I was Victor or Stanley or ______________(add a likely suspect of your choice), why would I be 'cutting thru the mix' for most of the stuff I played. Everybody else was supposed to be riding on my back and THEY were supposed to cut thru the mix. Joey | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 2353 Registered: 2-2005 |
When you are going through the PA you are at the mercy of the person running sound. If that person thinks all basses should sound like a Fender Precision then that's what you'll get unless you can convince them otherwise. One thing you can try if time allows is to have the sound person listen to your tone on stage. This way they know what you expect the bass to sound like and how it mixes with the rest of the band. Keith | ||
| moongerm
Advanced Member Username: moongerm Post Number: 343 Registered: 8-2013 |
For live performance if you simply want to stand out during certain parts of a tune, if you haven't already invested in a good quality stereo or mono boost pedal, you may want to investigate. For certain tunes, like one that involves mainly slapping throughout you may even choose to leave the boost on the entire tune. That will certainly do the trick along with dialing in a filter combo that will work best when boosted. | ||
| lidon2001
Senior Member Username: lidon2001 Post Number: 565 Registered: 4-2005 |
Spending too much time on talkbass Jazzy? If you're worried about that, I guess you need a Sadowsky, since that's the only bass that can cut through, according to the "experts" there. lol | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4887 Registered: 6-2002 |
Hahaha I have been on there a lot lately. But no that wasn't the trigger for the posting here. So am I to take it that the cutting through the mix is not a property of a particular bass but more the ability of the person dealing with the eq-ing of the said bass, to get the clarity of that bass to come through clearly and balanced to the audience. Now that could be the sound person or the bass player if its a backline only gig without support PA. | ||
| gtrguy
Senior Member Username: gtrguy Post Number: 989 Registered: 9-2004 |
It's a question of volume and tone or frequency. I also believe the human ear will train itself as a gig or concert goes on to be better at hearing the group and the mix. Also, the style of music has a lot to do with it and the number and type of instruments playing and the amount of background noise, plus the ambient stuff, like the walls and floor and the amount of booze consumed, the listener location, etc! There are so many factors, which makes it all interesting! | ||
| s_wood
Senior Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 410 Registered: 5-2002 |
"I often think Entwistle was the most extreme example. His tone was essentially clavinet-like, and while it works for The Who, if I'd ever showed up on a gig with that tone, I'd have been sent home." I read this and doubled over with laughter... because I DID show up with that tone a few times after I got my first Alembic, and I WAS sent home! Only upon reflection did I realize that Entwistle got away with his tone because he was often playing what were effectively lead parts. I eventually learned that Alembics cut through exceedingly well, but not because of their high end response - it's just inherent in their natural acoustical and electrical properties. I do agree with those who think that best way to turn one's tone into mush is to boost any frequency, or set of frequencies, too much. The old "cut before you boost" rule is spot on! Problematic boost frequencies, at least for me, are in the 100-180 HZ range roughly), and then again around 400-800 HZ (roughly). Boosting in those ranges can turn one's tone to pudding quite quickly. And, Jazzy, this is soooo true: "So am I to take it that the cutting through the mix is not a property of a particular bass but more the ability of the person dealing with the eq-ing of the said bass, to get the clarity of that bass to come through clearly and balanced to the audience. Now that could be the sound person or the bass player if its a backline only gig without support PA" We have a tendency to judge a player's tone based upon what she or he hears. Of course, we all know better, because the player on stage has no clue what it sounds like through the FOH. Even in my case - a bar band rat who often plays without FOH support for my signal - what it sounds like on stage often has little relationship to what it sounds like 30 feet away, where the patrons are. The acoustical properties of a given space are probably more important than one's choice of bass or amp... and radical EQ boosts only make it worse. | ||
| jimmyj
Senior Member Username: jimmyj Post Number: 622 Registered: 8-2008 |
Good thread! There are many many factors involved, don't trip out on it because YOU are not doing anything wrong. Joey, thanks for the comment about "staying in my lane", I like that. But my sound on recordings and live has very little to do with ME. I've been lucky to work with many talented audio engineers who I'm sure could make a washtub bass "cut through the mix". Jazzy, I'm quite sure the sound of your bass as it comes out of your rig is GREAT. In a small venue where there is no bass in the PA, I bet it sounds fantastic. In a larger venue with a proper PA it's completely up to the sound guy to translate your bass to the audience. And it might sound great right where the sound board is - and then terrible 5 feet away. There are no perfect rooms. And the funkier the club, the less likely they are to have a well tuned, or placed, or fully functional PA. Geez, in a reggae band THE BASS should be the prominent thing! But again, next time your friends come to a gig tell them to stand by the back wall and dig it. Entwistle was indeed a rare case but keep in mind that was essentially a guitar trio and that leaves a very WIDE lane for the bass player! I've thought a lot about this subject so maybe we'll keep this going. Jazzy, tell the sound guy to get his act together! Jimmy J | ||
| musashi
Advanced Member Username: musashi Post Number: 267 Registered: 5-2004 |
My take on it is, the key to cutting through is in the midrange: Jaco bumped at 700 HZ (so I understand); the Wal basses cut through just about anything and that's a midrange thing; and I read somewhere Marcus Miller's tech said they bump Marcus in the midrange as well, despite the apparent "scooped" sound he gets. It's the midrange that cuts through, it just has to be the right midrange for the room... And, obviously you need to bump the volume. Of course, if you want to "cut through" it helps that you are saying something meaningful, a la Pino Palladino with Paul Young-- or Stanley-- or Mark King-- or______________. (Message edited by musashi on January 28, 2016) | ||
| ed_zeppelin
Advanced Member Username: ed_zeppelin Post Number: 240 Registered: 2-2010 |
I'm with Joey, especially because I sacrificed my spine to Ampeg SVTs and Sunn Coliseums (I hate pickups - the vehicles - but had to drive one for decades just to haul bass amps around). You never see folded-horn enclosures any more. Gosh, I wonder why? I wonder if it had anything to do with the fact that those low notes "break" about fifty feet away, so that you could barely hear anything when you were standing in front of it and thirty feet away people looked like they were bouncing around in an air-castle. Over the decades it gradually sunk in through my rather handsome yet remarkably thick skull that sound works kinda like a cone; low frequencies denote power and higher frequencies provide definition. A recording engineer who had done tons of mobile recordings for everything from Charlie Parker to orchestras and big bands told me that the problem is that all the instruments "hog" the spectrum from 250 MHz to around 1K. Basically, that's the root of the problem you're describing. Without the upper harmonics and partials to provide definition, even an Alembic sounds like a floor tom, with more sustain. (Boy, wouldn't we love to hear Ron Wickersham or Sonicus' take on that? And a translator to tell us what they said?) To return to the cone analogy: the higher the frequency, the more directional. That's why 5.1 home theater systems stick the woofer behind the sofa. The best example is the Bose 812 "flexible array" system. Note the 1,000 watt subwoofer stays in the same place, alone, forgotten, with no direction. Hell, it's only one 12" speaker! As Joey said in his brilliantly-written, concise treatise on the topic;
I like that he also noted the influence of your stage amp on your overall sound, but for a different reason: as bassists, we're in the worst place in the room to hear ourselves. We compound that by tweaking our rigs to get the "perfect" sound, then show up at the gig and it sounds like somebody playing a tuba over the radio. So we blame the soundman (I noticed that happens every time this topic comes up, even though the soundman is the only person there with a vested interest in making you sound your best). Maybe it's because I'm primarily an upright bassist (even when I'm horizontal) from an orchestral background, and nobody goes to a symphony expecting the 3rd chair bassist to suddenly break out in a wild improvised solo, but I think you have to know the factors - without using adjectives - and minimize the discrepancies. What I mean by that is trust the soundman and use the language of sound. I learned that the hard way when my Bassman amp decided to self-immolate midway through the second set at a gig with Roomful of Blues, in front of around 4,000 people. Luckily the soundman (an English bloke  ) had a SansAmp bass DI thingie and in a couple of minutes we were back up, and I couldn't believe how much better the bass sounded! From that moment on, I rethought - and reconfigured - everything. I paid really close attention to both the settings on the FOH and monitor boards, and instead of gazing off into the distance, growling nonsense like; "more beefy, with a little 'shimmer' on the high end" I noted exactly what the settings were on the board(s) and started thinking of my stage amp more as a monitor rather than the source of all that is holy and good (like I said: SVTs and Coliseums will give that false impression, if you don't get bitch-slapped back to reality before your backbone gives out). I think of soundmen as being like salesmen: everybody only remembers the bad ones. The good ones want to help you, but they can only do that if you convey what you want, and it's in service to the sound of the ensemble. The truly great ones surpass your expectations because they're so good at what they do they don't care what you want. Treasure them. Learn from them. Bring them offerings. As for every time this topic comes up (a couple of times a week, by my figgerin'), somebody decries soundmen as the enemy and they always seem to make the same accusation: they try to make our Alembics sound like Fender Precisions. As though that's a bad thing. Notable Alembic players John McVie, John Entwistle and John Paul Jones (the "three Johns?") all used Precisions. ("Live At Leeds" featured Entwistle on a Precision, a fact I didn't know until very recently). James Jamerson of Motown/Tamla and Carol Kaye used Precisions, on literally hundreds of the most popular songs in history. I'd kill to have my '62 Precision back, and for the cretin who stole it to have his haunches infested with abscesses. In fact, one of my favorite settings on my Series 1 sounds a lot like a Precision. Ain't nothin' wrong with that. But I defy anyone to make a Precision sound like an Alembic. | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 2354 Registered: 2-2005 |
Whoever is responsible for setting up the sound is the one to blame or congratulate be it the person running the PA or the bass player. Tone also has a lot to do with where you are listening from. As I stated on another thread it was not uncommon for me to not like my stage sound as I had set the tone for it to sound good out front in the audience. That whole room acoustics thing. There were times where the bass amp was nothing more than a monitor for myself and the drummer so even though it looked like I had a lot of speakers we were only using a single 2X10 to keep the stage volume down. In those cases I thought I sounded great but is was not nessecarily what was being heard through the mains. When I ran the PA I would say it was pretty close to what I hear in my head. When it was someone else I could only hope it was what I hear. Another area that can cause good tone to go bad when running through the PA is the bleed from the stage. Not only can the two sources be EQ'ed such that they create mush but the time delay involved with speakers 10-30 ft behind one another will cause problems. The result can be an area of the venue cancelling out notes or in another reinforcing them. This is why controlling stage volume if very important when the PA is doing the heavy lifting. One last thing that can really affect what people hear out front or on stage are the other instruments in the band. I had a case of a drummer who kept telling me to turn down. I tried to tell him it wasn't me but the rhythm guitar on that particular tune reinforcing the area where I played along with the keyboard player. I finally got tired of hearing him complain so one day I turned my volume all of the way down and he still complained. When I showed him the volume setting he finally shut up. It also goes to show just how close he was paying attention to everything else going on around him not to notice no bass at all. Keith | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4888 Registered: 6-2002 |
Thanks for your insight jimmy J, I must want to add, that this is NOT a problem with the reggae band, Musical Youth, I play with as we have our own sound engineer who is superb and also a bass player who loves reggae and has engineered it globally throughout his career and understands how I like my bass to sound on those gigs. It's with venues where I'm doing jazz funk gigs with the in house PA that I am now realising that I should have concerns with how they are dealing with my bass. | ||
| gtrguy
Senior Member Username: gtrguy Post Number: 990 Registered: 9-2004 |
The X rated version: The drums get people grooving, the bass gets butts moving, the guitar and keys get people approving, and the singer gets people screwing. | ||
| stephenr
Intermediate Member Username: stephenr Post Number: 161 Registered: 9-2014 |
I agree about the midrange being key to cutting through and I also feel it is the key to finding a personal tone. One thing I love about the Alembic filters is that you can effectively change and highlight certain frequencies and then goose them a bit more with the Q switch effectively controling/changing the resonant peak of the pickups. Numerous times when I start to have difficulty hearing myself onstage (usually as a result of the guitar player soloing with a distorted tone) I adjust the filter a wee bit to a frequency that helps me to hear my bass clearly again and that is usually not a high frequency. High frequencies can give you air and "clank" but not punch. So, sometimes cutting through is as simple as finding the "magic" frequency that needs a slight boost or a competing frequency that needs a slight cut. There is really little you can do about a someone running FOH who does not know how to get a good bass tone other than try to get him/her to listen to your rig on stage in the context of the band during sound check. If there are enough channels on the board to run a D.I. and mic your cabinet, too, that will also help to get your sound into the mix. On the other hand, from the stage we can't hear the room, particularly after the show has started and the room is full of people. Getting a wireless system or a long cord and standing out front during sound check only gets you so far and is not representative of the way the room sound changes during the gig. I have mixed feelings about how helpful it is to send a post-EQ signal to the board. If you don't use a lot of EQ and processing it can help to get "your" sound into the PA but a lot of heavy EQ can make it difficult for the person mixing to help you sit properly in the mix. Room sound is a whole different animal and it certainly helps to have a FOH person who not only knows what the are doing but you trust. As far as Entwistle... I saw the Who many times between 1967 and 1982 and for some reason until the MSG shows in 1974 it never fully struck me how much of the overall sound of the band was coming from the bass and drums. As loud as Pete played, his guitar was more like icing on the cake and a structure on which to hang the bass, drums and vocals. With other trios like Cream the bass and guitar were both equal partners and with the Jimi Hendrix Experience it was all about the guitar... IMO Noel Redding's bass sound was awful and just there to fill space. Doubtful anyone ever left a Hendrix gig complaining about how they couldn't hear the bass. | ||
| wick5
Junior Username: wick5 Post Number: 33 Registered: 10-2014 |
When I complemented the folks at Alembic shortly after getting my bass made in heaven, I commented that it "cut through the mix" so nicely. I was simply referring to the bass's highs, mids, and lows were equally as prominent in the mix (I was only using a DI that first gig with it). Haven't we all had gigs where it seemed the mids and or highs weren't cutting through like the bottom? | ||
| wick5
Junior Username: wick5 Post Number: 34 Registered: 10-2014 |
Oh, and how many times have we suffered through a 30 minute drum check, and then the sound guy tells you to play and 5 seconds later he signals "OK, got it." (Message edited by wick5 on January 28, 2016) | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2178 Registered: 5-2002 |
Cutting through the mix is also not just about what's going on with the bass. Not only does the tonality of the other instruments have a lot to do with it (are they prominent in the range where the bass has definition?), but also arrangement. If everyone is crazy busy, no one really gets heard. I've kind of let go of worrying about what's going on in the house. Excellent engineers have told me that all they have to do is bring my fader up and they get the sound they need, so I know it's not a function of my signal that would mess things up. And, I've got lots of positive feedback from the audience, including other bass players and sound people. I think I'm just very lucky that I largely get to work with great engineers. It's a good thing to cultivate good relationships with them. If they like you, they will pay attention to what's going on with your sound and the good ones will even take the time to listen to the genre you are working in as homework (it's been pretty crazy to show up to do a tribute show where the house sound guy has done more homework than the band!). People say that the music business is all about relationships and this is doubly true when it comes to working with sound people. But, quite often my part of the sound check is 5 (well, maybe 45) seconds of playing and the sound guy says "OK, got it." and I know he does. Oh yeah, sound people seem to really like it when I bring an RE 20 to put in front of my speaker. | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 2546 Registered: 9-2002 |
Boy, the good endorphins must have been running last night. Kudos from the Double J and Ed Zep, to quote, 'Ha!' Thank You ! As you can see, once you're away from those tiny gigs where everyone's riding their own amp and just a PA for vocals, it's out of your hands. My old music store manager had a standing question when someone would ask about buying a PA: "Are you just gonna sing thru it, or are you going to include bass and drums (and everything else)?" As it's the difference between a Beetle convertible and an 18-wheeler. Jimmy's been VERY fortunate: The Flim records and the live James Taylor set were done by George Massenburg, one of the very best engineers in the world, on a par with Rupert Neve. And touring with JT, they have their own long-time engineers and top-shelf touring contractors. But even at that, it's up to who's on the other end of that XLR from the direct box or mic. And then, the room: Standing Wave and the Acoustics is not a new band, but a dark force like gravity, always trying to pull you down. And it will. You know what you should sound like. The best you can do is present the best tone you can build, shoot it down the line, and hope for the best. You've been around plenty, you know what works, what it should sound like, but the unfortunate part of being a professional is many times, ya just got to grin and bear it. The funny yet really aggravating thing is: There's not a person reading this who has not gotten lots of compliments on a given night when you just wanted to hide, it sounded so bad !! On the other hand . . . . get a Precision with Seymour Quarter Pounders, stainless round wounds, and a heavy pick (I prefer Fender 355 Heavy triangles), run it thru a cranked SVT, and just fram the hell out of it ! ! Joey | ||
| elwoodblue
Senior Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 1811 Registered: 6-2002 |
Man, this thread cuts through the mix! Glad to be in the same 'room' with y'all | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4905 Registered: 6-2002 |
I had a big theatre gig last night with Musical Youth, my main band, and gave the signal to the PA from the DI, pre and also the cab was mic'd up. Sound check sounded good but later on after the gig the clarity of the alembic bass and notably the B string got the thumbs up from a very discerning jazz drummer who was in the audience last night. She is acutely aware at how indistinct the notes on this string can be, when she is gigging or listening to bands, and was highly complimentary of the fact she could hear every single note clearly all the way down the neck. Even her mum commented and she is not a musician. Great news for me, the bass, the sound engineer, and just what I needed to hear. :-) The sound guy is mixing the concert for TV broadcast today so will be sending me a copy of the audio and video once it's done so I guess I can hear what went on out front. | ||
| s_wood
Senior Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 412 Registered: 5-2002 |
Excellent! Compliments from a discerning drummer are high praise, indeed. Do you if the FOH mixer favored a particular EQ solution for your signal? | ||
| s_wood
Senior Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 413 Registered: 5-2002 |
Excellent! Compliments from a discerning drummer are high praise, indeed. Do you if the FOH mixer favored a particular EQ solution for your signal? | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4906 Registered: 6-2002 |
Hi Steve, I haven't had a chance to ask him yet but I will as I know him well, he is the sound engineer for the reggae band I play with and also the venue we used is at the college where he is senior lecturer for the sound production courses and so he knows the room better than anyone. Usually when we gig he asks me to give him the sound post but this time I asked him if I could give it to him pre just so I could find out if there is a difference. I'll have a chat with him once he has mixed the music and find out what his view is. (Message edited by jazzyvee on February 14, 2016) | ||
| dtothec
Intermediate Member Username: dtothec Post Number: 103 Registered: 3-2015 |
Jazzy, in the future you might want to get a wireless system, go out in the venue during the sound check, and work with the sound man to get the sound the way you want it. That way, he can hear what you want it to sound like. Then as the venue fills up and the acoustics change, he has an idea of what you want it to sound like and can adjust to maintain it the way you want, as opposed to him guessing or making it sound how he wants it. Just a thought. | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4907 Registered: 6-2002 |
Yeah that sounds like a good idea. I do have an old Samson True Diversity rack mount wireless that I got in about 1992 but I think its VHF system so not sure if they are still legal to use but It's worth a try. I read somewhere that Scott Henderson uses a loop pedal to set up a groove with the band then walk off stage to the mixing desk to get his sound sorted out. | ||
| wfmandmusic
Intermediate Member Username: wfmandmusic Post Number: 180 Registered: 1-2012 |
Do it while the whole band is playing. Lots of low end on guitars can kill your cut. I am always amazed at how much high end seems to disappear from my bass tone coming out of the pa or onto a recording. Usually if I don't turn the treble up on my bass to a point where it's a little more than I like to hear on my stage rig it ends up sounding a little muddy. Yes you have to sort of find your sonic space with the rest of the instruments. I rarely boost mids. A clean high and a punchy thump on the low usually gets me there. I leave the mids to guitars and vocals. | ||
| gtrguy
Senior Member Username: gtrguy Post Number: 1020 Registered: 9-2004 |
I have a looper pedal I use with my bass looped on a song that I can fire up and walk out front and hear the mix. Works great! Also keeps me from playing the riff to Lowrider all night long. | ||
| willie
Advanced Member Username: willie Post Number: 284 Registered: 11-2003 |
Here is how I cut through the mix. 12000 Watts!!! Try to stop me from being heard!!!! Ha Ha Ha  | ||
| mavnet
Member Username: mavnet Post Number: 79 Registered: 2-2003 |
Long ago, I had a 50 foot long 5-pin xlr cable, just so i could walk out and check sound with the band. Definitely had to switch to the shorter one when actually playing, though - 50 feet of cable loves to wrap itself around your feet. I think it becomes sentient and angry when it gets longer than about 25 feet. | ||
| llobsterbass
Intermediate Member Username: llobsterbass Post Number: 131 Registered: 5-2004 |
That's some crazy mofo rig there Willie. Do the lights dim in town when you hit a low B? Just stopped by 'cause I wanna say my Orion is one of the best recording basses I've ever played. Just set flat, maybe a bit towards neck pickup. preamp or just DI. Sounds warm but defined and punchy, very three-dimensional. | ||
| 5a_quilt_top
Member Username: 5a_quilt_top Post Number: 58 Registered: 6-2012 |
Look closely at the lamp shade in the pic - I believe that may give a clue as to the force of the low end generated by that rig... ;-) But, what I really want to know is how well did all of those acoustic guitars fare in that situation? I ask because we have several acoustic guitars hanging on the walls at the small guitar store where I work part time and any time we fire up a bass rig that's a fraction of that size, even at a relatively low volume, the sympathetic string vibrations in the acoustic guitar area are significant. | ||
| willie
Advanced Member Username: willie Post Number: 285 Registered: 11-2003 |
The power amps weren't turned up that much. Most Acoustic guitars had their own amp. And a small PA for vocals. It was overkill for the Gig. But when it came time and everyone was yelling for a Solo I had plenty of headroom. And the tone is amazing. Nobody complains about it. Ironically if I play with a band with electric guitars going through Marshall Amps they are al intimidated and complain that it is too much. I am never too loud. The amps have Volume, (Input Gain Controls), so I can play as loud as I need to. It always ends up with me telling the guitar players to turn down. Go Figure!!! | ||
| 5a_quilt_top
Member Username: 5a_quilt_top Post Number: 61 Registered: 6-2012 |
Oh, don't worry - yer preachin' to th' choir re: clarity and headroom and the power required to achieve it. I know your rig sounds amazing (and crystal clear) at low volumes just by looking at it. Besides, you're holding an Alembic, so 'nuff said. My remarks were tongue in cheek - just couldn't resist when I saw the angle of the lamp shade. And - since I'm both a guitarist and a bassist, I've been on both sides of the fence re: volume wars and, IMO, it is pretty basic: Guitar is perceived as being (too) loud in the immediate proximity of its amp / cab and bass is perceived as being (too) loud about 30 - 50 feet away from its amp / cab. Since the bass usually can't be heard real well / distinctly within close proximity to its amp, the first inclination for the bassist (who is usually standing right in front of the amp / cab) is to boost the volume "just a bit" for better clarity / cut - which in turn ups the ante for the rest of the band - and it's game on. This goes back to the topic of this thread - "cutting through the mix". As long as the bass cuts through adequately at a reasonable volume while occupying its own little sonic spectrum and the guitars and drums both behave themselves and respect that turf - all is well. The best solution I've found to date is to use a DI capable of feeding both the PA and a private powered monitor that is angled up at me and away from everyone else. This way I can blast myself with as much bass as I want (within reason) and the PA delivers the correct mix to the house. | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4935 Registered: 6-2002 |
Hi Willie, since you are playing in a band with acoustic guitars I wonder if there is any difference in how and what you play compared to playing with electric guitar bands. Also I'm curious as to how you develop bass lines for original material when doing acoustic gigs also. The reason I ask is that I have a dep gig with an acoustic band, guitar, drums and vocalists, coming up next month and as well as learning some music from their recently released album I have to put a bass line to a song that hasn't isn't on the album so all I have is guitar drums and vocals on a recording from my phone at rehearsal. For the album tracks I'm staying close to what is recorded for obvious reasons and the baselines of the tracks pretty much stay on the beat and follow the roots of the chords and on the beat and that works really effectively with the rest of the band, but I would like to do something different with this other track since it's an opportunity to give something of me to the gig. Another side to this which fits in with the original posting is that my plan has been to do this gig on my 4 string series I bass since the regular bass player in the band also uses a 4 string bass. However this afternoon I decided to try playing along to the tracks with my series II Europa 5 and that bass seems to bring the track more alive. To my ears It seems like the cleanliness of the fundamental notes compliment the acoustic guitar chords a lot better. Hopefully Jimmy will chip into this since he's already contributed to the thread and maybe I can get some feedback on how he approaches this. I have a rehearsal with the band in a couple of weeks so will most likely take the two basses to hear what works best in the flesh so to speak. Here is an example of the band and one of the tracks I'll be doing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdQb1e12Eus | ||
| jimmyj
Senior Member Username: jimmyj Post Number: 636 Registered: 8-2008 |
Hey Jazzy, A bit off topic but since it's your thread we'll all come along! Ha! I'll post some thoughts here but I don't know if I can describe "my approach" because I don't really know what I'm doing... Plus, if you're thinking about my playing with James Taylor remember that his guitar parts already include all the bass parts so that's more about choosing what to double and what to leave out. I don't feel like I make those bass parts up completely, if you know what I mean. Subbing on a band, the main goal is to make it a seamless experience for them. You want them to forget there is somebody else playing the parts so they can concentrate on what they're doing. For instance, that's a nice and slightly unusual bass part in that track and your goal should be to honor it by playing it just like that. As far as which bass you might want to play - sound-wise I'm sure any of your axes would be great. Alembics have such an open and natural sound that they work well with acoustic instruments - IMO. As long as you don't kick in the wah-wah pedal I think it'll be good. Also be sensitive to volume levels, be sure to ask at rehearsal if you're playing too loud (even if you can barely hear yourself). And again the goal is to not distract the other band members in any way. With that in mind, if you think your 5-string fits better sonically then play it, but I suggest rarely using the low string because that will be a new and distracting sound for the band. You know, if a song is in D I would certainly end on a low-D, but might not play it anywhere else in the song (OK, maybe the downbeat of the choruses). If you go down below E too often the singers are going to turn around and make a face at you. Now, making up a part for the new song... I guess you should try to channel what their regular player might do. Keep it simple and in the same style of course. The personal touches in what we do are very subtle. A moving / passing note between vocal phrases, a little slide up to the upper octave... That kind of thing. That's about all I've got. Our job in these situations is to support the song and the singer(s). And even if you were to play exactly the same notes their bassist plays, your "me" contribution to the gig will be your lovely clear bass tone. I'm sure they will be happy to have you there. Jimmy J | ||
| willie
Advanced Member Username: willie Post Number: 286 Registered: 11-2003 |
Hi Jazzyvee That Gig with the acoustic guitars a once a year event that I play in the mountains of PA. I tend to be making up what I am playing as I go along because I only get to play with these people once a year. It's musicians from Massachusetts to Virginia and by invitation. Luckily I am the only Bass Player there so they are kind of stuck with whatever I come up with. It can be quite difficult to hold back with what style you play and how loud and I would be lying if I said that I didn't overdue it once in a while. But they seem to be happy with it and always insist at some point on hearing what my Alembic Basses can do through that rig. They all say they never heard a Bass sound that good and clear. I get comments like. "I saw a Bass Rig like that at an Arena or Stadium Concert. Which it can certainly handle. I do however prefer to play with an electric band where I can be more aggressive and louder. So? Just go with what Jimmy J said. He knows better than I do. | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4939 Registered: 6-2002 |
Hi Jimmy there is a tenuous connection with the topic somewhere, anyway thanks for your words. It's always a pleasure when I read your responses to members of this forum, and your willingness to share your knowledge and experience with us even if it's true that "you don't know what you are doing", you know far more than me. I just know who to ask. :-) I will take on your points and work on the new bass line. I did one rehearsal with them a few couple of weeks ago and went through all the songs right first time which they were pleased about. The guitarist in particular loved the sound of my series I bass. Then they dropped the new song on me so I just recorded them playing it and will get something worked out before next rehearsal in a couple of weeks time. Thanks again Jimmy J. | ||
| wick5
Junior Username: wick5 Post Number: 36 Registered: 10-2014 |
Jimmy J, Since you might be looking at this thread, I've got to say this. I went to a James Taylor concert in Raleigh, NC (Walnut Creek Ampitheater) around '92/93ish expecting to hear the great Leeland Sklar (wasn't following too closely JT's bandmates). After the first song, I was mesmerized by the bass tone. After the second song I was wondering who that bass player was. By the intermission I telling my friend that I was thinking I was hearing the "tastiest" bass player I had ever heard. I still think that. Don't blush! I just had to say it. | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 2749 Registered: 3-2004 |
To me, "cutting through" is about identifying the bass as an instrument and hearing the distinct notes. One of the things I find important to my success as a bass player is keeping the ego in check. Cutting through isn't always the right tone for the genre or the group. I try to serve the song. If you're playing with a multiple other instruments, that often means a lows-heavy tone that ties in with the drummer, providing a foundation that everyone else can groove to. One of the biggest problems with cutting through in a multi-guitar rock band, or with a keyboard is that both the left hand of the keyboard and some overdriven guitar tones invade the bass's traditional frequency range. That can be the environment where you need to find the right place in the mids to bump if you're looking to cut through. Playing with a single guitar does make for a larger lane, but it also can create quite the challenge. I've been in that situation with my current band for over ten years. There are times when I am playing bass lines, replacing lines for a second guitar, covering sax solos, and who knows what else. There's no one else on the bottom, so my tone has to provide the thump, but that cutting through comes into play when serving some of the other needs. If the lows get too thin, the song suffers. In my experience, that cutting through comes from multiple sources. Yes, we've all spoken about EQ adjustment. Recognize that it is sometimes not your EQ that needs to be adjusted, but rather the guitar player that needs a tweak to make room for you. That thick, driven guitar tone that sounds great when you're playing alone doesn't always fit into the band mix. The other thing that is critical is all in your hands. A significant part of hearing the bass notes is about attack and articulation, as well as controlling the ending of notes. If you play mushy, you sound mushy. My playing style has to be different if I'm playing an old-school 50's tune than if I'm replacing a sax solo or an upper-register keyboard line. This is where the Alembic rules because it is so responsive to playing style. I can play with slow attack around the neck and get the 50's tone and move to plucking over the bridge pickup with more aggression for a sax solo, all without touching a knob. Fortunately, we play 90% of our gigs either without FoH support, or with a sound engineer who has the right mindset to makes us sound like us, only louder. After rambling here a bit, I guess the point is to examine your playing technique as well as looking at settings when you're thinking about cutting through. -bob | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2241 Registered: 5-2002 |
Jazzy, you have hit on something that is important for every musician to understand. As a recording engineer, I am often asked by a band why their recording doesn't sound like such and such and why the <insert> doesn't sound as good. 99 times out of 100, it's the arrangement. If people are playing over each other and playing too much, it's never going to sound good. The genius of the Sir George Martin was exactly this. With a great arrangement, you never have to fix it in the mix, it mixes itself. Same thing with live music. | ||
| wick5
Junior Username: wick5 Post Number: 37 Registered: 10-2014 |
To keep from totally hi-jacking this thread, in my above post I meant to type in that JJ's every note was heard and "cutting through" that night in Raleigh. (Message edited by wick5 on March 12, 2016) | ||
| jimmyj
Senior Member Username: jimmyj Post Number: 637 Registered: 8-2008 |
Thanks for all that Steve. Credit for "cutting through the mix" at that gig would have to go to John Godenzi our FOH man at the time - and as Edwin pointed out, the musical arrangements. Everybody in that band plays in a supportive style and it fits together like a nice puzzle. I'm a big Sklar fan too, those folks literally "wrote the book" on this kind of playing. Jimmy J |
