| Author | Message | ||
| turk713
Junior Username: turk713 Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2004 |
Hi all, it's been a while, and I'm looking for power amp, and moreover preamp suggestions. Some review and updating will help here because this is sort of a continuation of something I'd posted here a while back, and the background could influence suggestions. In the archives from JAN or FEB of 2005 there is the thread I'd been running about trying to figure out what was causing bad fart type distortion with my rig (which at the time was my Orion, a Mesa/Boogie 400+ tube bass amp, and two 15" Mesa/Boogie cabs which actually were really heavy duty flight cases). Lots of suggestions rolled in, and I did a lot of troubleshooting, and a lot of conversing with the fine people at Alembic as well as those at Mesa/Boog, and I laid out a lot of money having amp tests done, exchanging speakers, and so on. The problem had gone on for almost a year. I had bought the Boogie system used but looking great, in order to finally conquer problems I was having with my existing used combos always breaking down and being in the shop half the time. Well, then not ever finding exactly what the problem was among my Orion and the Boogie system, eventually I dropped the thread here and then soon I gave up on trying to solve the problem. That was review. Here's the update and then my request for suggestions. I looked around for a new system, and didn't get a truly confident feeling about any of the manufactured systems that I could afford. I looked at the usuals like Ampeg, and also Demeter, Aguilar and the like; man I went through the list on Harmony Central. I also was trying to find great cabs. I didn't want any repeat problems! I decided to have an all custom, handbuilt system made. I called up Tim Paulsen at Ear Candy Cabs and commissioned him to build me 4 of his Bassbombs in accordance with the sound qualities and look I'm after. Now, these Bassbombs are known to be outrageously great sounding and enormously air moving. After having made a few thousand of these things, Paul had still only ever made one order larger than mine for any one bass player. The point is, I now have a lot of cabinet! Each of the Bassbombs has a 12" Kappa Pro and a 12" Delta Pro. Tim has all the sides tuned to exactly the same pitch; the cabs internal design actually instruments the unimpeded flow of air and sound unlike the sad reality concerning most manufactured cabs. At the same time I commissioned a custom amp designer, at Red Iron Amps, to build me two power amps and one stereo preamp. The power amps would each have 6 high end 6550 tubes, totalling a full 300W. After 7 months (!) the amp system finally arrived, but sadly damaged due to rough handling but also due to inadequate packing for 75 lb amps, and at least partially dysfunctional, and workmanship-wise not measuring up to the very high price I paid. I sent them back and called off the deal at a percentage of financial loss. So now again here I am, dealing with the same issues, looking for power amps and at least one preamp, most likely two. The difference now is that I have new cabs, so I'm not shopping for those. So with that all said, I am asking for suggestions. And at this point, just a little more background info will do. One, my cabs can each handle a max of at least 950W. Insofar as they each have two 8ohm rated speakers, the cabs would either be 4ohm or 16ohm, and I went with 16 ohm wiring because I'm going to be using them in pairs and I didn't want to run into having to connect with 2 ohm amp outputs. Another thing is that I am after power! I am after what will have the capacity to feed each each 950W cab with a minimum of about 1/3 more than a cab's capacity, meaning that I need at least 1250 or so bonafide, functioning watts available to each cab (not over-rated wattage, or spike wattage). Not to ever crank up amps that high, but to have plenty of headroom, filling a sizeable venue with full, intense, heart felt bass sound, while just cruising along at most at half capacity. This way all transients and spikes coming from me maybe pounding real hard on the open B string or from me stepping on my double octave splitter either up or down, or from me or my bass or my effects doing anything at all, will not even come close to overdriving any part of the system. Really, no more of the problems I'd run into for too long already! The third bit of additional info here to help get suggestions, is that I play a full range of dynamics and pitches, and tones, and use a large variety of effects. I play Pink Floyd-ishly, and also hard driving punk style like the Stooges, and Hendrix and Who style/sound, and also straight out sound effects such as mimicking Humpback Whales. Last, I'm after stereo. I have an Ernie Ball stereo volume panning pedal that I will use to split my mono signal from the Orion. From the Ernie Ball I will have two series of effects and whatever else eventually, going to either a stereo preamp or to two separate preamps. After the troubles that have occured in getting together a good system, I am down to a max of $4000 to work with. I'm very strongly considering two Crown CE-4000 power amps. Forget specifically bass amps, I figure. There aren't any as powerful as I want, and tone is established at the preamp level anyway. Each amp would give me 2400W out at 8ohms (two of my 16ohm cabs linked together = 8ohms), in bridge mono mode. That's 1200W available to each 950W cab -- the doable minimum of overhead that I want. By the way, the red and black fronts of these amps would go with the hot firey color of the front panels on my otherwise black cabs. Of course, I'll have two of these mono rigs as my one stereo rig. Anybody have any other suggestions for the power amp stage? And now the bigger question at this point. PREAMPS. Here's some preamp news I could have used a long time ago, I finally got confirmation of something I had suspected all along regarding my Mesa/Boogie system. Someone at M/B said the other day that the 400+ might have been getting freaked out at the signal coming from my Orion, at its input (preamp) stage, and the distortion could have been the result. Well, I do not want there to be any chance of something like that happening anymore at my system's preamp stage! And I'm looking for quick response, warm warm warm, organic tone as my "home" or essential tone, with powerful lows, mids and highs alike. I want unquestionable preamp capacity to handle the full impact and frequency range of every pitch all the way down to low B and all the way up to high G, and amplitude, from my Orion 5-string, no matter how hard or soft I pick or finger. I don't like the modern solid state sounds, or even many of the modern tube sounds. But I'd take solid state if it sounded more good-tube than does a tube pre. I've looked at Alembic's F1-X, Aguilar (expensive!), Demeter, Ashdown, and others that I can find reviews about. I like what I read about the Aguilar the most I think, so far. But I have no clue how one actually sounds with respect to tone. I'm interested in having an easily expandable system, such as one day maybe bi-amping on both sides of this two amp system. Ok, 'nuff said. suggestions? | ||
| keith_h
Advanced Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 256 Registered: 2-2005 |
Turk, You might want to look at the QSC PLX series of power amplifiers in addition to Crown. The PLX3402 is rated at 1100W per channel @ 4 ohms . I use a PLX 3002 to drive my Bag End subs on my rig. I also use one to drive the subs and mains on my PA. So far it has proven reliable and I am happy with the sound. Another plus is it only weighs 21 lbs. Right now I drive everything from a combo but I am planning on going to an F1-X preamp once funds become available. Keith | ||
| mpisanek
Intermediate Member Username: mpisanek Post Number: 104 Registered: 1-2005 |
My recommendation would be either the QSC PLX series or a Crown K2. I don't know if the K2 is still in production, but it is a super amp! There are no moving parts in the amp, and I have used one continuously for 5 years with no problems at all. The headroom was phenominal! and the amps were amazingly clear sounding as wll. | ||
| cosmic
Junior Username: cosmic Post Number: 33 Registered: 5-2005 |
No brainer, Get the Eden Navigator head and feed it into the Crown power amps. I swear by Eden gear. My set-up is an Eden wt-800 bridged into an Eden 410 and I find I have more than enough power for small venues or decent sized clubs. If you need more, go with the Navigator pre-amp and add on however much power you want on the backend with the Crowns. if I was not using the Eden, I'd use an Aleemmbic F-1x mated to the Crowns. n | ||
| bassdr
Junior Username: bassdr Post Number: 33 Registered: 10-2004 |
I am VERY happy with my F-1X and Mackie 1400i driving my custom built cabs. 15" Eminence Omega Pro (800 watt RMS) and 2 Rockford Fosgate 4 ohm 10" running in series (400 watt RMS). Big powerfull bottom with good definition for slap and overdrive sounds. Used Mackies are not too expensive and are built like tanks- heavy too! Michael (Flame Koa Essence) | ||
| kilowatt
Junior Username: kilowatt Post Number: 29 Registered: 12-2004 |
Turk, I can give a thumb's up to the QSC PLX 3402 as well. I run an F-1X (SF-2 in the effects loop) thru the QSC into a Schroeder 410 and a 12/12. This rig has clarity, headroom and bottom end to spare. This is just my opinion, you could like a completely different tone than I do. As others have said before, try out everything you can get your hands on before you make a final decision. Pete | ||
| turk713
Junior Username: turk713 Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2004 |
Hi everybody, Thanks for the suggestions. Due to them I'm looking into QSC power in addition to the Crowns, and into the EDEN Navigator pre which I see is rather dynamic and flexible. I had already been considering the Alembic F1-X also. In fact, I have a question about the Alembic F1-X pre, which I know is highly recommended. I have read several reviews of the F1-X and at least twice I have read that, while the F1-X is a superb preamp, it falls a bit short in the mid range and therefore might not work so well in the rock and roll genre without adding a good EQ unit into the system. What is the Alembic owners opinion on this? Sincerely, Turk713 | ||
| bassdr
Junior Username: bassdr Post Number: 35 Registered: 10-2004 |
I do not find a problem in the midrange with my system as I described it earlier- this preamp will give you whatever sound you want. Look at some of the previous threads about the F-1X. The tone controls are not what you might be used to- they interact in ways that take time to understand (at least for me)  but I have been able to get all the sounds I want out of my Essence. Michael (Flame Koa Essence) | ||
| mpisanek
Intermediate Member Username: mpisanek Post Number: 105 Registered: 1-2005 |
The F1-X is the preamp that I am currently using. It is an amazing preamp. It does take some getting used to though, as bassdr said. As far as the sound for using it for rock genre goes, I find that it is perfectly suited for it. The clean sounds are amazingly clear and full. If you are going to use a lot of effects most of the time, I would suggest a different preamp. The Alembic will give an excellent rock tone! The Eden navigator will also give an excellent rock tone as well. It is a bit more flexible, and does have compression built in if that is what you use. The Alembic preamp has only one DI out while the Eden has 3. One big advantage of the Eden preamp is the footswitch. That is something that I do wish the Alembic did have! At the end of the day it comes down to your own personal taste. I believe that the tone I get out of my rig is perfect for the rock genre. Both preamps are very good, and I definitely prefer the Alembic, but it is not the only horse in the race. | ||
| turk713
Junior Username: turk713 Post Number: 18 Registered: 1-2004 |
Hi, and thanks again folks, for the input. mpisanek -- you make an interesting observation. The way I read it, you said that if I use a lot of effects most of the time, then maybe look at another pre than the F1-X. If I'm understanding you correctly, how come a different one than the F1-X if using a lot of effects? This could make a big difference perhaps, and I want to be clear on your reason(s). You can email me if you like, at turk@panjamon.net Thanks again, Turk713 | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 1281 Registered: 9-2003 |
FWIW, you can easily get an Eden Navigator pre-amp, and TWO WT-1550 power amps (1500W EACH bridged @ 4Ohms) for WELL under the amount you wanna spend for a kick*ss system! Eden's amp link is below: http://www.eden-electronics.com/products/amps/index.asp Ck out this thread from fellow club member F. Michael miller (aka, FMM) regarding his recent visit to Eden's Minn. Factory and their new bass amps. http://alembic.com/club/messages/396/21796.html?1132477821 Eden's stuff is good sounding and potent as it is lightweight and compact, and comes with 19.5" EIA rackmount adaptors. Just my $0.02 Good luck in your quest to set new seismic records both here and abroad, LOL! Cheers, Kevin | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 1282 Registered: 9-2003 |
BTW, Eden's stuff is now available at mass-market retailers like Garbage Center, but I'd highly recommend a place like Bass Central. I bought my Eden rig from them last year. Both owner Beaver Felton and Manager Gard were awesome to deal with, and they priced the stuff right...no extra charge for pro advice and service! | ||
| 2400wattman
New Username: 2400wattman Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2005 |
Hello Turk, I know your delemma all too well. My current and permanent rig is an Aguilar DB680 pre into a Crown Macro-Tech 2400 pumping two 8x10" cabs. The Aguilar has a great effects loop w/mix knobs for dry and wet sigals,built in crossover and a jensen output transformer(clean tone).I've had a CE2000 before and it was o.k. but with the macro there is just no comparison and I never worry about the amp clipping or crapping out on me. I've had that problem w/ QSC,Ampeg,SWR etc. etc. It is a pro quality touring amp that is tough as nails and will produce your sound the way you want.Research the macro line and find the one that suits your needs.An F1-X is also great choice if you can't swing the Aguilar or maybe look at Phil Jones bass. He offers a 1space pre-amp for about $999.00 last time I saw. I just don't know what it sounds like,but his amps and cabs are all EXTREMELY HIGH END with the pre being the least expensive item on the list.It seems that you've taken a no expense spared attitude with your search for great tone, so don't skimp on the power amp. Also with the kind of effects routing you are looking to do the Aguilar does seem to be your best bet in my opinion. Now I'm not a salesman I'm going to tell you where you can get a used Aguilar for $1345.00. It is at Guitar Ctr. Knoxville,Tennessee (no I'm not a fan of this place) and it appears to be in great shape. It has been in there for a while(at least a year!) so talk them down to at least $1000.00 or lower if you can. They have a 30 day return policy & I believe that it also applies to used gear as well but ask them first.If so, that would give you plenty of time to try it out and see if it's what you want.I'll tell you that I have had nearly every major manufacturer's top of the line amp and everyone of them has been about as reliable as a Yugo(remember those?). Good luck and I hope that I was of some help. | ||
| turk713
Junior Username: turk713 Post Number: 19 Registered: 1-2004 |
Hi and thanks again for the responses. 2004Wattman, as I had written earlier I like what I've read in my initial inquiries about the Aguilar DB680, so I'm glad you brought it up. People generally converse about products other than Aguilar's. So if you've also used the F1-X then let me ask, in accordance with your perceptions how would you characterize the essential tone of it, in comparison with that of the DB680? By the way everybody, of course I am not holding anyone accountable for what they say. I'm asking all these questions because I've travelled the road to hell trying to pull Power, Tone and Reliability (The Three Graces!) together in a bass system; and simply put, your valued information helps a lot. Turk713 | ||
| gare
Advanced Member Username: gare Post Number: 289 Registered: 11-2003 |
Turk..just a thought..did you get rid of the 400+ ? If not, try a preamp thru the power stage via the effect s return. The 400's power section does have some gonads.. Gare | ||
| worldfamousandy
Junior Username: worldfamousandy Post Number: 30 Registered: 3-2004 |
Regarding the F1X and it's midrange qualities: When I bought mine, I soon discovered that I liked having that Mid knob turned almost all the way up. Someone at Alembic later told me that the Mid control on that preamp is an attenuator. In other words, flat response = 10. Even though the setting looked out of whack, it sounded the way I wanted it to. | ||
| turk713
Junior Username: turk713 Post Number: 21 Registered: 1-2004 |
Thanks everybody for the input. Now a new but relevant question. Crown amps used to be very popular. But now a lot of people are using QSC power amps. Can anybody tell me why Crown perhaps has been superceded in popularity by QSC? Turk713 | ||
| turk713
Junior Username: turk713 Post Number: 22 Registered: 1-2004 |
Gare, Hey Gare! Been a while since we communicated. That's a good suggestion. I still have it, and it has sat unused, in need of another overhaul and repair. I grew so tired of having it fixed that it is collecting dust. It has a great loss of power right now. One channel barely has any output at all. I could check to see whether the power stage is the current problem, or the pre. I don't even remember any more. sincerely, T | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2669 Registered: 5-2002 |
Turk; based on my reading of the posts made to this forum on the subject of power amps, I believe it can be said that Crowns are still highly regarded. Among the reasons for my choice of the QSC PLX was the relatively light weight. | ||
| 2400wattman
New Username: 2400wattman Post Number: 10 Registered: 11-2005 |
Hello Turk, I believe the reason why QSC has attained some of it's popularity is that the PLX series is very light weight consdering their power ratings.I believe that the lowest wattage PLX up to the highest wattage PLX are the same weight.This would make a big difference lugging your rig by yourself. However, the reliability factor I'm not sure about. Track down some amp repairman and ask them what they see the most of come into their shop. That could also help you in your decision, but I'm still going to push the Crown's, especially the Macro series they are to me hands down the best production amps that money can buy. It's like this, when you've got an Alembic you've got an Alembic,when you've got a Crown.......Hey, you won't be wondering or worrying anymore. Unless you didn't get one with enough power. | ||
| 2400wattman
Junior Username: 2400wattman Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2005 |
Turk, have you decided on a preamp yet? If you are you still considering the F1-X, may I also recommend getting an SF-2 or some other eq to put in line w/the F1-X, as the mid control on the F1-X does not boost mids at all. If you are wanting more control over the mid freqs. take this into cosideration. I had gotten to play on my "B" rig(which is the rig w/the F1-X) 2 weeks ago and I had more time to work with it, only to find out that I wanted more control over those low & high mid freqs. Good luck and Merry Christmas. |
