| Author | Message | ||
| angelboy
Member Username: angelboy Post Number: 53 Registered: 1-2004 |
I'll tell you what I understand first.... Both basses have the filter and Q for each pickup but the signature has a pan whereas the series has a selector. The signature has one volume control and the series a volume for each pick up. Both basses have similar tone control but is the overall sound that much different? I have a Series 1 but I'm looking at a SC Signature but can't try before I buy. Will I be disappointed with the sound in comparison to my Series? | ||
| marcky
Intermediate Member Username: marcky Post Number: 109 Registered: 11-2005 |
First of all your series-1 has single coil pickups and signature basses have humbucking pickups, there's a big difference in sound. I used to own a Mark King signature but I traded it for an old series-1 because that's where the real alembic sound is, but that's just my taste. Also check out the scale length, it does make a bit of a difference in sound, more heavy strings don't work very well on medium or short scale basses IMHO. Hold on to your series-1 no other bass will sound like that. If you just want to add the SC to your collection it's ok, but it's a very different bass. But it is all up to you, you might like it! Marc (Message edited by marcky on February 02, 2006) | ||
| serialnumber12
Advanced Member Username: serialnumber12 Post Number: 356 Registered: 12-2004 |
The signature basses come with a two position Q switch whereas the series basses come w/a three position (or) a continious /rotary Q (seriesII)switch,and yes there's a big diffrence in the sound the series basses are 'hollow' (chambered) which adds to the overall tone of the bass,where the other models are solid body basses, there's more "meat" in those series basses and of course the pups are like marky says single coil pups which is more defined in sound or more PURE sounding,,,,,,just ask your wallet! | ||
| angelboy
Member Username: angelboy Post Number: 54 Registered: 1-2004 |
Thanks Marc, I've no intention of letting the Series go but I've got an itch to get a short scale SC Deluxe. If I could find one at a reasonable price with Series electronics then I'd go fo it but they don't seem to be found too easily. I play a JayDee Supernatural and a Warwick thumb and love them all for their different sounds, so maybe I would be fine with the Signature electronics. I've also got a Super Filter so I should be able to get the Signature to sound pretty reasonable against the Series...............with a bit of tweaking of course!!! I've been looking for a Status S2 or Kingbass but I don't think they can compare to the Alembic. | ||
| angelboy
Member Username: angelboy Post Number: 55 Registered: 1-2004 |
Serialnumber12: If I could only afford the $20k for my ideal Series 2 then I would but it wouldn't be too different to the Series 1 that I already have. I've got used to not having a master volume (a bit of a pain to start with) and the sweeping Q's are a real luxury. In the UK you don't see many Alembics around, especially Series basses. Every sound engineer I've worked with has fallen in love with the bass, but I guess in comparison to what they're used to mixing the Alembic is real top shelf stuff. I play in the same venues with my Noble and Cooley drums and Brady snares and they fall in love with them too. It's hard to put a price on top level equipment!........well, $20k maybe ;) | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 2259 Registered: 9-2002 |
Yowdelyhow ...Paul the aaaaaaaaaaah one is there! So ...do I read this right? I have to conclude you are a drummer too?? Sounds VERY Mark King-ish! Paul the bad one | ||
| keith_h
Advanced Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 328 Registered: 2-2005 |
There is a variation of the Signature Electronics that gets closer to a Series 1 setup (not the pickups though). It is the Anniversary package. It has separate volume controls, two Q switches, a pickup selector switch and a stereo/mono switch. This is what I have on my Brown Bass. Still it is no Series I/II. Keith (Message edited by keith_h on February 02, 2006) | ||
| angelboy
Member Username: angelboy Post Number: 56 Registered: 1-2004 |
palembic: I thought I could sneak back in unnoticed!!! Yes, for my sins I'm a drummer to.................in fact..............I didn't want to tell anyone but..............I am..............Mark King! | ||
| angelboy
Member Username: angelboy Post Number: 57 Registered: 1-2004 |
keith_h: So the controls are pretty similar then. Is it just the output from the pick-ups that are different or a whole different tone? | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 744 Registered: 6-2002 |
No you're not - you have too much hair! J/K | ||
| angelboy
Member Username: angelboy Post Number: 58 Registered: 1-2004 |
Ahhhh! You see, that's not really me, it's Marks son...........I mean my son.... | ||
| keith_h
Advanced Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 329 Registered: 2-2005 |
Paul, You will need to add a moniker to your first name so the other Paul's don't get confused. LOL. The Anniversary Electronics use humbucking pickups not the single coil that you have on your Series 1. I like the sound and versatility. In my opinion I can get that Alembic sound whenever I want it. It is probably the next best thing to Series 1 electronics. IMHO. I have never heard both side by side to determine how different they may be (sounds like an excuse to head up to the mountains and visit Asheville Dave). Having heard both separately I do think the Series electronics have a better tonal range. My suggestion would be to see if there is someone in the UK with Signature or Anniversary electronics that is near enough and try to get together see how they sound. I am not familier with distances over there but I do know there are a fair number of folks in the UK that have Alembics. Keith | ||
| valvil
Moderator Username: valvil Post Number: 851 Registered: 7-2002 |
A slight clarification; our non-series pickups are actually 'humcanceling' and not humbucking. The difference is that you can't do a coil tap on humcancelers, but you can on a humbucker. Valentino | ||
| flaxattack
Senior Member Username: flaxattack Post Number: 954 Registered: 4-2004 |
did anyone mention major dollars? | ||
| hb3
Member Username: hb3 Post Number: 75 Registered: 2-2005 |
here's an audio sample of a stanley clarke custom w/ anniversary electronics... www.hb3.com/mp3/BASS.mp3 sorry to everybody who's heard this already. I change the tone settings about halfway through for variation. make of it what you will. I love the sound of the bass but I've never actually compared it to a Series. | ||
| serialnumber12
Advanced Member Username: serialnumber12 Post Number: 357 Registered: 12-2004 |
FUNKY SOUNDS!!!    | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3129 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hugh; no problem, it sounds great! Keith; I would love to hear your Brown Bass! Come on up for a visit! | ||
| jacko
Senior Member Username: jacko Post Number: 500 Registered: 10-2002 |
Paul One of the guys up here in Edinburgh has an MK signature but he doesn't subscribe to this club. If you're ever up here I'm sure we could arrange a listening session. Graeme | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 1701 Registered: 9-2003 |
Paul: Just my $0.02. I don't think you could go wrong with ANY Alembic. They all sound great, and each has their strengths and weaknesses. Sure, an SC will sound different than your Series...the scale length alone will make a significant difference, as will the electronics. There is nothing quite like a Series...there is an "air" around the notes like nopthing else...but the SC is different enough that it should compliment your axes nicely. Other than the potential balance issues with a short scale, small std. bodied-bass, it's all good. Personally, I have a virtually identical '04 clone of your Series I (34" scale, std. exc. for the 5A Quilt top/back) and I have an '04 Custom Orion 34" scale set-neck with EWM electronics (incl. "J" activators). They are like night and day. Both are fantastic instruments, but each has a different sound, feel and vibe. The Series is phenomenal: slim, fast neck, incredible sustain and thundering lows, with a big, heavy body. The Orion has killer midrange punch/growl and a chubbier neck but in a smaller, lighter package. Both are extremely versatile, and both are in 5A Quilt, LOL! They compliment each other nicely. Cheers, Kevin | ||
| angelboy
Member Username: angelboy Post Number: 59 Registered: 1-2004 |
Cheers fellas! I'm over in New York and Vegas from Wednesday next week. I know Ed Romans has a few basses I could check out. They have a SC Deluxe in that I'm gonna try. Does anyone know of any in New York that I could check out? There's a SC with Series 2 electronics going in Europe - bit of a price on it's head though!!! | ||
| worldfamousandy
Junior Username: worldfamousandy Post Number: 45 Registered: 3-2004 |
I was in New York in December, and was somewhat dissapointed in the stuff I saw at Manny's and Sam Ash. I think those stores rely so much on mail order business these days, that they don't focus on showroom inventory at all. I could not find a single 4-string fretless bass at either shop. The place accross the street from those stores, the name of which I can't remember, had some cool vintage stuff. I didn't find much at Roman's in December, either. They have a lot of inventory, but only a few basses that were truly nice. I suppose it was worth stopping by, as I was in the nieghborhood anyway, but it was not the afternoon I had hoped for. Andy www.andycalderbass.com | ||
| jlpicard
Advanced Member Username: jlpicard Post Number: 347 Registered: 7-2002 |
Getting back to Val's post, I don't think anythings ever been mentioned about the internal configuration of a Humcanceling pickup. My guess is the reason you can't coil tap is because there is only one "active" * coil inside. The other may be a dummy with the same amount of windings but no magnet similar to the concept of the series electronics but in a compact package. It has been stated that the Humcanceler has a smaller aperture than the big series single coils so that would account for the thinner sound. Just a hunch, but it has always struck me that the signature or more accurately the anniverery electronics package is Ron' way of updating/modernising/simplifying the series setup for ease of manufacture and cost control while losing little in the way of tone and versatilty. I'd bet that the design of the filter section of the circuit is not all that different from the series setup aside from the Q control capabilities of course. Oh yeah, and the fact that Series circuits run on +/-18 volts gives them more headroom than the 9V signature circuit. This is an oversimplification of what I understand is involved in the series circuit but I would think most of the sound improvement comes from those wider aperture single coils. Bob, care to comment? * just an expression. Yes, I know Alembic pickups are not themselves "active". | ||
| terryc
Member Username: terryc Post Number: 62 Registered: 11-2004 |
For worldfamousandy..It's Rudy's Music Stop, I bought my MK Signature from there in 1998 and brought it back to the UK. I think it would be very hard to tell the difference in Series/Signature electronics by the time you push it through more variations of tone controls on your amp..in the studio it would be more apparent. I must admit there seems to be a lot more tonal variations achievable with the variable Q controls etc but I also would like to try & compare but Alembics are not seen on the wall of SoundAcademy here in Stockton on Tees | ||
| worldfamousandy
Junior Username: worldfamousandy Post Number: 47 Registered: 3-2004 |
Yes, Rudy's. It is a cool store. Thyanks for the reminder. Andy www.andycalderbass.com | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 947 Registered: 7-2004 |
I bought my Taylor 810 at Rudy's back in '94 when 48th Street had a bunch more guitar stores than it does now. 48th Street definitely ain't what it used to be. I was at Rudy's last summer. They had 4 or 5 old strats (late '50's, early 60's) for $35,000-$50,000! The guy said they would sell in a couple of weeks or so. Amazing! I'll be visiting there next wed/thur while I'm in NY. Any suggestions for other shops besides 48th Street? I'm especially interested in vintage and unusual, and, of course, any Alembics. Bill, tgo | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 576 Registered: 11-2002 |
(jlpicard - we have several bobs here, but without being presumptuous I'll say a few words anyway - firstly, that it's nice to see aaaaarghboy back here again! And secondly, this is way too long, but now I'm too tired to prune it down...) It feels to me like we are bouncing around at least three or four completely different factors in this discussion, and as a new reader I would be pretty confused about why (though not whether) "Series electronics sound different from Signature". 1) The most important difference (other than cost) between Series electronics and everything else, is the pickups themselves. Series are single coil, the others are humcancelling. By itself, the tone you get out of the Series pickups before any other electronics, vs. the AXY/MXY/FatBoy pickups, will be the biggest difference. Having never had a Series instrument in my hands for more than a few minutes at a time (and only a couple of times at that), I'm not the best one to characterize this, but many others here have tried. I'm still a little fuzzy on the distinction between hum-cancelling vs. -bucking, and why it matters whether you can coil tap them or not. And yes, the AXY/MXY pickups have a smaller magnet/aperture than the Series, but the FatBoy uses the same larger magnet size as the Series - and I believe I have read that this was in an attempt to get closer to the Series sound, without the expense (but it's still fundamentally different, since it's not a single coil). Regarding the power (9 vs. 18 volts), I really don't think this should be interpreted as suggesting that the non-Series instruments have limited headroom. Rather, the Series circuitry is sufficiently complicated that it sucks more juice, and/or maybe you just need it to properly handle the single-coils. I'm out of my element here, but I have to believe that if it would make a huge difference to throw an extra battery in the non-Series instruments, then it would be there. 2) I'm nearly certain (just short of stating it as fact), that aside from the Q controls, the filter modules are all the same - whether it's Series, or a non-series with one or two filters, or even an SF-2. I believe that whether you have a two or three position Q switch, and what exactly the dB settings are in each position, is mostly a matter of parts values (resistor choices and stuff). You'll get more or less Q, more or less settings, but it's all the same stuff, not fundamentally a different circuit. The Really Big Deal is the CVQ case. As far as I can tell (mostly by guessing), it takes a lot more of Ron's time to build one of these things, which is why they aren't generally available unless you order Series II electronics. Even then, the relatively modest upgrade cost from Series I to II probably doesn't cover the effort, but as long as you're in that deep... In regard to the original question, whether you have a CVQ or a switch is really a separate issue, and not to be confused with the difference between Series electronics and the others: i.e., a Series I does not have CVQ. 3) How many volume knobs do you want? At the very least, you can have a separate volume for each pickup; those two plus a master; a single volume plus a pan; maybe throw in a pickup selector switch. We've had some discussion about volume/pan versus separate volumes (not convincing, in my opinion), but again, this is a totally separate issue from the design of the pickups. I think all of these work well, and it comes down to mostly a matter of personal preference, not something that fundamentally changes or limits your tone possibilities. 4) How many filters do you want? This is probably a case where if one is good, two are better... but Signature gives you two, so that doesn't matter in this discussion (and thankfully, we don't have to get into the difference between a filter and the simpler tone controls, repeatability of settings, etc.). 5) As for the hollow body effect, I think keavin and I have graciously agreed to disagree on this matter. I'll still argue that the empty space is not sufficient to give you an acoustic effect, though I can believe that reducing the body mass may have an effect on tone. More likely, however, it's the Series pickups themselves, and/or more extreme use of the two filters. To sum up (sorry for carrying on): regarding the original question, the key difference is not the number or type of controls, but the fact that one uses Series pickups and the other doesn't. That will make the biggest difference (assuming identical woods, strings, scale length, fingers...). At the same time, that doesn't mean you would be disappointed with the sound of a non-Series instrument. It depends on what tone you are looking for. There probably is a special sound that just plain requires Series, but then again we have an awful lot of people here who are perfectly satisfied with non-Series, myself included. The best thing to do would be to put aside the tone control configuration, and try to listen to the different pickups. -Bob | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3155 Registered: 5-2002 |
Bob; I'm having one of those mornings where I don't yet trust myself to focus on work. Given that, here's my question; if the main difference is the pickups, why do Series electronics require a thicker body? (I could go downstairs and take the back plates off a couple basses, but I'm enjoying my coffee at the moment <g>.) I tend to think there's more to it than the pickups; but I don't really know. I'm thinking there are some mysterious alchemical circuits involved. | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 850 Registered: 7-2003 |
If I'm not mistaken, the reason for the thicker body with Series electronics is that there are more components in the package. I don't dispute what Bob is saying about whether the filter modules, etc are the same in Series vs. Non-Series electronics. But I do know the noise cancellation circuitry required to manage Series pu's (which I think of as huge antennae) is pretty imposing. I don't know how much space this requires, taken alone, but it may make the difference. Don't know about whether the preamps are different between Series and non-Series, apart from the filters themselves. Also (though this doesn't require more body thickness) don't forget the dummy pickup in the middle. Overall, my understanding is that the Series electronic package is significantly heavier than others. From having held a box containing the full S2 package, I can say the components (including the pu's) are a load. | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 988 Registered: 3-2004 |
Another bob stepping up... I think that all we can really do from the outside is to identify the differences. The hollow body is now less of a differentiator as they are doing it to more instruments now than just Series. When I ordered my bass, I had the option of hollow/solid and regular/series thickness and I believe there were no charges associated with the choice. I was also told that hollow is now standard on Signature instruments, though I would seek confirmation of that if I were ordering again. The bodies won't have as many plies as a Series instrument, but I doubt that has a significant impact on tone. The pickups are clearly different. I would love to hear a description of the construction of the humcanceler. If it truely is a live "coil" with a pre-balanced dummy, then the tone should be pretty similar. My understanding is that, as reported above, the Fatboy pickups use the same magnets as the Series pickups, and that they have a wider aperture than the AXY/MXY versions. In terms of electronics, I have never seen the inside of a Series bass. Though the filters and preamps have the same functions in both circuits, I suspect that more compromises must be made the more you try to shrink them down and the less power you have available. That would give a significant edge to the Series package. Unless someone is the type to reverse-engineer the electronics and pickups, I am not sure we will ever know. While I would love to know the full details, Alembic may need to hold some things back in order to protect trade secrets. What I do know is that both Signature and Series instruments sound fantastic. Do we really need to know more than that? -bob | ||
| jazzyvee
Advanced Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 339 Registered: 6-2002 |
I know this is probably quite contraversal bearing in mind I do have a signature bass. I agree that all alembics especially the series and the signature have a great range of tones available to the player. More so than any bass I have put my fingers on. In reality how many sounds do we actually really use on gigs and sessions. I would argue that none of us use all the full flexibility in tones we have on our instruments we generally have a few that we can whizz the knobs to when needed. The rest of it is about knowing we can get all the other sounds we need if required. But i doubt we ever do. I spoke to a guy last year, when I was searching for an alembic bass, who has a series II 6 string bass and he had found the setting he liked and never moved it from there. Jazzyvee | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 2265 Registered: 9-2002 |
Hi Jazzyvee! With all my respect for you as human and professional musician but I have to disagree here partially. 1. Assume my DREAM-ALEMBIC: that would be a six stringer with teeny mandoline frets, ebony laminates, neck through, 35,5" scale, bookmatched to center and bla-and bla-and bla BUT MOST IMPORTANT: just 1 PU and just 1 volume pot. I strongly believe that I can have A LOT of tones and sounds out of that bass by simply moving my fingers while plucking the strings (cfr. the Anthony Jackson Fodera Contrabassguitar ...I THINK someone in the club has one). SO in a way ...you don't need soundshaping devices on board AT ALL. Just a decent amp, combo or preamp, filters and a strong Poweramp combination. 2. You are absolutely right in circumstances that -being a profesional- you are on stage and how the sound is projected to the public is in the hands of PA profssionals (we hope) and they take care of your sound so that it is presented in whatever room to the audience in a way that you sound like ...huh ..."you". In that case you are absolutely right: if you find a sound that is "you" ...you will not easily change it. And -with some tweaking- that sound is THERE in a Series II. 3. I disagree with you in two points. - If you play in a cover band that plays a wide range of sounds than you have to switch for instance from a typical "reggae" bass-sound (you know) to the whumpy 60 popsound to a funky khatchaaa extreme setting. Solution: different presettings on your amp and/or change the settings on your bass where I assume that the Europa electronics will come in handier than the Series II. Logically: they are quicker to work with. - Second: if you are a 1-type o'music band (like me in BLUE STUFF ...mainly Chicago and blues related stuff)I found the Series II electronics very handy to make small changings in my setting to get the "THAT'S ME" sound to match the divers small romms (bars-clubs) we are playing in. We have NO PA!!!!!! So depending on the space ...I make those small adjustments. As long you have a decent speaker system with wide range output you can even do this with a power-amp only and counting on the versatility of the Series II. The situations I play in are SO divers that I even work with a SF-2 WITH Bonnie who has the Series II guts!!! Overkill? Maybe. But I can assure you that I can produce with that set a decent bass sound for a public "behind the corner" in a bar complete in concrete in World War II "blockhaus" style or in an Irish pub with wooden walls and full of cosy kiss-,drink- and fumble corners. Though I AGREE again that -once the setting found IN ADVANCE- I don't change it. But (good ol'but) it is really fiddling and tweaking before you find it and YES it asks some time before you are there and that you master it but ...Well ...it IS rewarding. Just my ideas. Paul the bad one PS: the SF-2 comes also very handy in that way when I want to play any other bass in that concrete bunker ...I even bet I will manage to have a decent sound there with "Ol'Broomstick" ...really true! (Message edited by palembic on February 07, 2006) | ||
| keavin
Senior Member Username: keavin Post Number: 664 Registered: 12-2002 |
very well said Mr Palembic! | ||
| dadabass2001
Senior Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 525 Registered: 6-2002 |
Paul, TBO I played in an Irish bar last year called Pint. Why didn't you warn me in advance about the "kiss, drink, and fumble corners"? I never found mine! Boo hoo Mike (drinking in the center aisle with no one to kiss and fumble with) | ||
| jazzyvee
Advanced Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 340 Registered: 6-2002 |
I Knew someone would box my ears lol. I'm in a rush at the moment so I will try to respond another time. Jazzyvee | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 2267 Registered: 9-2002 |
Heheheheeeee ..Brother Jazzy no boxing intended. I merely would say that there are two sides on having a bass with a "complex" tone circuit on board. Paul TBO | ||
| jlpicard
Advanced Member Username: jlpicard Post Number: 361 Registered: 7-2002 |
Thanks to both Bobs for their response. Bob#1: With regards to the 9 vs. 18 volt question, I don't believe any Alembic is deficient in headroom. If memory serves, I believe Bill Bartolini has stated that a properly designed 9 volt preamp can do the the job just fine but an 18 volt circuit can give you that extra headroom if and when you need it which is why he makes some of his preamps work either way. When it comes to the no compromise design of a series instrument, I can certainly see why 18 volt was the choice especially when using an outboard power supply. Ultimately I agree that it comes down to the pickup design that has the most influence. | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 992 Registered: 3-2004 |
Relative to the difference in pickups, I just ran across this description in the aptly named "Must Reads" section. | ||
| terryc
Member Username: terryc Post Number: 63 Registered: 11-2004 |
this is what I do.for palembic we have PA but for vocals only 'cos we play small venues. We do cheesy covers for functions and weddings..60's, 70's 80's. Set neck pick up to bass tone use q switch for boost, set bridge pickup to treble tone use Q switch to boost. Control the whole lot using pan control, leave volume alone unless really necessary and use finger dynamics for quiet and loud sections. If you do three or four songs in sucession you ain't got time to fiddle with loads of controls. See my other thread about filters with Q's plus bass & treble controls. I leave my amp setting at neutral..no cut or boost on high/low controls and graphic..I let the bass do the talking. For the average non musician out there who we play to they wouldn't know the difference but alas as bass players we would!! |
