| Author | Message | ||
| spose
Member Username: spose Post Number: 95 Registered: 5-2002 |
hi! does anyone use a field recorder to record gigs or rehearsals? I just love the looks of the new Sony PCM D1 and just had to share  I don't have one, but it's giving me serious G.A.S.!! http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PCMD1/ | ||
| spose
Member Username: spose Post Number: 96 Registered: 5-2002 |
looking at this one too. http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MicroTrack2496-main.html | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1002 Registered: 3-2004 |
oops - double post... sorry (Message edited by bsee on February 17, 2006) | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1003 Registered: 3-2004 |
Those things seem more geared toward recording other peoples gigs from the audience than your own stuff. I could see you using one for rehearsals, but where would you put it to record gigs? Anyplace on stage is likely to give you an unbalanced mix, so you'd probably want to get it out in the crowd. I suppose there are several levels of recording quality that you can aim for. The highest is a single track for each instrument and vocal. That would be great for rehearsals and to make demos, but it's more than I want to deal with at gigs. If I were in a band that mics up everything and could get this level of recording for free, that would be a great option. The lowest would be a straight stereo recording from a device like those you are looking at. They are certainly easy to set up and can give you a reasonable recording, but they have a couple problems. They can only sit in one place, so they get the mix at that spot, and many units won't capture the bass very well (important to us Alembicians). The latter is not a problem I would expect from the $2K Sony unit, but is common for the average stereo recorder. In addition to ease of use, this solution also has the benefit of not requiring mixdown. I like to compromise and record four tracks. I take one feed from the mixing board that has the vocals way on top, but bleeds through all the instruments. I hang a couple of mics at different spots on the stage to feature the guitars and drums. Finally, I take a direct feed from my amp to isolate the bass. To me, this is the best compromise of effort/hassle vs. quality result. It does require a bit of mixdown, but not much more effort than it would take to break the recording into individual tracks. There was a recent discussion of hardware to do this here. If you decide to go stereo, there are a few more options beyond what you posted. Some HD MP3 players are now able to make a good stereo recording, including the latest iPod. Add a quality stereo microphone and you're ready to go. One final thing to consider is the purpose for your recording. Any option should do well enough to let you critique your performance, but it may be hit or miss to come up with recordings that you would use as demos or publish on a band website. I think the four track will give you a better hit rate for recordings worthy of public use. As usual, just my opinion, and worth every penny you paid for it. Good luck! | ||
| dadabass2001
Senior Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 533 Registered: 6-2002 |
I use an Edirol R-1 portable stereo recorder with an AKG stereo mic. It's similar to the Microtrack 2496 above but a little bit larger (about the size of a double VHS case) with a mini stereo plug for mic-in and AC/battery operation (AAx2). Bob's comments are pretty close - It's an adventure in audio for each recording. I put the mic on top of my system and wind up with a "bass heavy" but usable for review air-check of the show. Occasionally (when we have a secure table up front in the audience) I set the system up out front for a more accurate rendition of the performance. Mike | ||
| rockbassist
Member Username: rockbassist Post Number: 63 Registered: 8-2005 |
I just bring my laptop loaded with Sonar Cakewalk and a Tascam US-122 interface. I run a couple of mics to pick up the raw sound and then remix, eq and run effects when I get home. I have made several decent quality live demos this way. | ||
| gbarchus
Intermediate Member Username: gbarchus Post Number: 160 Registered: 6-2002 |
I have a Sony MZ R900 MD (MiniDisc) digital recorder that I sit on top of my amp and it gives a pretty accurate picture of what I'm hearing on stage. I've had friends put it at a table in front of the band to find out how we sound. It's pretty good feedback but not a potential CD. I think it was about $300. http://www.minidisc.org/brian_youn/sony_mzr900.html | ||
| laytonco
Junior Username: laytonco Post Number: 45 Registered: 3-2005 |
I use the Sony Minidisc as well, but we plug it into the soundboard and we get HI-Def CD quality recordings out of it. I've tried using the little mic at rehearsals but it cannot handle any loud volumes. It does work well when we're doing acoustic. But, when plugged into the soundboard, it is truly amazing. I paid aroud $450 for mine. | ||
| jazzyvee
Advanced Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 364 Registered: 6-2002 |
I just take my ipod with a belkin mic attachment. It's not fantastic quality but allows me an easy way of listening to the arrangements. Jazzyvee | ||
| pace
Advanced Member Username: pace Post Number: 209 Registered: 4-2004 |
I bring my Sony D8 to gigs where there isnt a house system / soundman. The places we've been playing usually have a CD-R in their rack. Believe it or not, our guitarist does rehearsals with a Fisher-Price cassette recorder! | ||
| matthew90046
Junior Username: matthew90046 Post Number: 22 Registered: 1-2005 |
I use a Sony Minidisc with a Rode NT4 stereo mic. To avoid preamp distortion I use a 40dB pad in the line. It captures a good live recording. I bring it to gigs and place it close to a friend or the sound guy, then hope it is there after the show. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3625 Registered: 5-2002 |
I've just reread this thread and the previous thread here. Lots of helpful comments. Here's what I'm thinking. I want to record our shows. My first goal is to be able to critique the performance. Secondary benefits would be demo CD's and website publishing, and recording rehearsals. As we don't have vocals and mostly play small venues, we don't carry a mixing board; so the recording would be via mics. I want to spend as little time as possible setting up. I'm thinking using one stereo mic or two mics and placing the recorder in the middle front of the stage. And I don't want to do any mix down. At most I'm thinking downloading wav files via USB to a PC for purposes of burning a CD or uploading to a website. I want to record the entire show - and we generally don't take breaks; so I'm thinking three to four hours. Oh, and I want to spend as little money as possible! <g> And of course the bass response is important! I looked at the Edirol. Some mixed reviews. And by the time you purchase a large enough flash card, it looks to be a sizable cash outlay. The Sony site shows two current models of minidisc; MZ-RH910and MZ-RH10. I can't tell what the difference between the models is, other than one lists for $200 and the other $300. A minidisc holds 1GB. Several of you have said that you record your shows with a Sony minidisc. How much can you record on a single 1GB minidisc? Minidiscs seem to have the additional advantage of being their own archives. Comments; suggestions? | ||
| dadabass2001
Senior Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 559 Registered: 6-2002 |
Hi Dave, I recorded via minidisc for about 5 years before I switched last year to the Edirol. I purchased a Sony MZ-R37 portable recorder from Best Buy and used it weekly, then a second MZ-R37 about two years later (the first was suffering dropouts). I also purchased two different Sony home units and started to hit compatibility issues recording portable and dubbing from my home units via optical TOSlink to Phillips CD recorder. Minidisc uses it's own proprietary ATASC (IIRC) encoding (remember Sony Betamax), whereas the Edirol will record in multiple mp3 or WAV formats(i.e. 16 or 24 bit). WAV 16 bit on a 1 gig flash card yields 1 1/2 hours straight recording with no moving parts. I bought two 1 gig flash cards off PC Warehouse for significantly less than Best Buy / Circuit City prices. The Edirol seems to inhale AA batteries, but I always use the supplied AC adaptor and set the sytem on top of my amp (no vibration drawbacks because no moving parts). The Sony portables had the choice of either AGC or manual level without accurate metering. The Edirol has manual level with a larger LCD level indicator and switchable limiting. A USB flashcard reader was maybe $30 at Best Buy, or you can plug the Edirol into a USB cord and access it directly from your computer (I use a Mac). A built in audio editing program (for editing chitchat and normalizing) and CD burner completes the picture. I recorded last Saturdays Noah Gabriel /Pickled BEATS performance and by 5pm Sunday I had the whole show edited on my hard drive and had burned a 2 CD copy (I only got two sets because I forgot to turn on my AKG Stereo condenser mic-DOH!) for review purposes. Bottom line, over 5 years I spent close to $2000 on minidisc units that are marginal for field work and no longer current to minidisc technology and under $600 for a complete system that appears to be performing very well. YRMV Mike | ||
| newuser
Junior Username: newuser Post Number: 26 Registered: 12-2004 |
Taperssection.com and minidisc.org have reviews and info. The 910 comes with a 900mAh battery and the MZ-RH10 comes with a 1450mAh battery and has a backlight. The MZ-RH10 has an small external "AA" Dry Battery Case that you can connect to the recorder. IIRC they are not Mac compatible (via USB-the software is PC only, though if you have a intel mac, fresh WinXP SP2 disc and BootCamp it might work), don't have a line out (only headphones out), and have some kind of DRM protection (I think only for mp3 though). Also pretty sure that a WAVE (or AIFF) is consistent across platforms, so where 24 bit/44.1kHz on a 2GB card = 125 minutes, a minidisk at the same rate will get you 62.5 minutes on 1GB of storage. By the time you downsample enough to fit 180 or 240 minutes you're down to mp3 @ 320k. Mp3 is great for the web, but for RedBook audio (audio cds), you'll have to convert to WAVE/AIFF on the computer. I'm using an AT-822 (stereo mic about $250) into a Edirol R-1 ($425) with a Sandisk 60x 4GB Flash card (about $180 @ TigerDirect.com). The Edirol R-1 has a 2GB/2 hour storage limit bug: You have to start a new file at that point. It also can't monitor levels while recording (I put it in standby, do a level check or just start it during the first tune after setting the levels). This bugs me, but as my old and beloved Sony Walkman Pro tape recorder took one too many falls off a music stand, I had to go with what was available. On a Mac the R-1 is usb plug and play, I use BIAS Peak LE when editing is needed (eg: too lazy to start and stop recording between tunes). Their new model is the R-9, which _can_ monitor while recording, no reviewer verified info on file size/time limits yet and it uses a SD Card (supports 64 MB–2 GB), they claim 110 minutes @ 24/48, 180 @ 16/44.1 and 797 @ mp3 320k. Some may have shipped but most retailers are now saying June delivery. Even w/o a break in a 3-4 hour set you should be able to find time to start a new file (R-1) or swap the memory card (R-9), at the 2 hour mark. Everything I've read says to stay away from the M-Audio MT. Good luck and let us know what you go with! | ||
| dnburgess
Senior Member Username: dnburgess Post Number: 475 Registered: 1-2003 |
Dave I was looking at the Edirol as a way to remotely record Basscast shows. Then Marantz brought out the PMD660 which has had fantastic reviews. Have you looked at it? You could record your whole set uncompressed onto a single 4G compact flash card. http://www.d-mpro.com/users/folder.asp?FolderID=3629&CatID=19&SubCatID=180 | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3626 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks guys! I now know a lot more than I did a few hours ago! At the moment I'm at the site that David cited and the Marantz certainly looks interesting. | ||
| byoung
Advanced Member Username: byoung Post Number: 280 Registered: 12-2004 |
Dave, I was in the same basic boat, and I just decided to use a PC. I installed everything on Linux, rolled up a little web front end, and voila! I'm able to record the preaching at church. Ours comes off the board into a cheap (free!) Sound Blaster, but you could get a sound card with balanced inputs and phantom power (I think there are some available for $100 or under), and Bob would, indeed, be your uncle. As far as recording, I use Linux, since there are no copyright issues on the software, and I'm cheap. One of the problems with the packages that I found for Win/Mac was that they did not record for long enough (1+ hours), or they were pretty expensive. I also thought most packages were too complicated. Anyhow, I'd be happy to send you a copy of the software if you're not afraid of running Linux. Brad | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3628 Registered: 5-2002 |
I know absolutely nothing about running Linux. My laptop doesn't have much in the way of a sound card. And as stated above, we don't use a soundboard. But it's an interesting idea. | ||
| byoung
Advanced Member Username: byoung Post Number: 283 Registered: 12-2004 |
Dave, Your laptop could work, assuming you have a free PCMCIA slot (for the uninitiated, PCMCIA stands for People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms), FireWire port or USB port. Here is something you could try: The M-Audio MobilePre USB. It will show up as a plug and play sound card on Windows or Mac, and does include some recording software which seems like it will work (although it is way too high on my "fiddly knobs" index). Just plug it in to your USB port and you're set. If you don't have enough hard drive space on your laptop, consider getting an external USB hard drive. These are much cheaper than the aforementioned flash drives. As for PCMCIA or Firewire, there are sound cards that utilize these technologies, substitute for USB above. Brad | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3629 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks Brad; that sounds worth persuing. I'll look around and see what I can find that would work with Windows. Anybody have any suggestions along the lines of what Brad is suggesting for working with Windows and a laptop, using USB or PCMCIA? | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3630 Registered: 5-2002 |
At the moment I'm looking at the M-Audio MobilePre USB. With two XLR inputs, this seems like it will do what I want for a very reasonable price. However, the first review I've read was mixed. The reviewer said it worked surprisingly well with dynamic mics but terrible with condenser mics. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3631 Registered: 5-2002 |
Now I'm reading about the Lexicon Omega. I'm starting to reach information overload! | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3632 Registered: 5-2002 |
Now I'm wondering whether something like the Omega would overwhelm my laptop. I have a Pentium III @ 1.0GHz w/ 256MB ram. | ||
| byoung
Advanced Member Username: byoung Post Number: 284 Registered: 12-2004 |
Dave, More memory == joy. The 1 GHz should do fine, and you might be able to get away with 256MB, but I'd suggest 1GB, honestly. Upgrading memory is simple and user-servicable. If you want advice about how to buy computer memory, send me a private email. There are vast price differences in memory, and I'll tell you how to get a better deal. Anyhow, the Omega looks like a much better unit: it has phantom power. I don't see it causing problems unless you're recording a bunch of tracks. Since it looks like you're only doing one or two, I think you'll be fine. Brad | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3633 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks Brad; I'm still thinking about the Omega. At the moment I'm looking at the Fostex MR-8HD Digital Multitracker. It's just one piece. It has 4 XLR inputs w/ phantom power. It has a 40GB hard drive. And it has USB connection to download WAV tracks to my computer at home. It's FAT32, which means my computer at home can access it. And it's in the same price range. It's 16-bit 44.1kHz. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 1217 Registered: 7-2004 |
Reading the above reminds me why I miss my old Sony pro-walkman. I think maybe I'll sniff around for someone who can fix it. In using the Sony mini-disc (and, I would assume most other digital recorders), I realize how much I miss just being able to glance at the walkman, see the reels in the cassette spinning, and know it was on. Dave: Please keep on updating your progress. I'm very interested in what your research turns up. Besides downgrading back to the pro walkman, I'm also considering upgrading from the mini-disc, so I may be riding your coat tails. Bill, tgo | ||
| zuperdog
Junior Username: zuperdog Post Number: 31 Registered: 11-2005 |
Dave- I have the Lexicon Omega. If all you need is two input channels, it's a great unit. The mic pre's are decent, and it comes with Cubase software, which is my personal favorite anyways. I'm using a 1ghz mac G4 with 512mb of ram, and I have no latency problems. All I use it with is dynamic mics, but it really does sound great for everything but quiet acoustic instruments. Only downside is it's another thing to drag around, but it's quite small, and self-contained, just a power cord and USB cable. | ||
| zuperdog
Junior Username: zuperdog Post Number: 32 Registered: 11-2005 |
I would also recommend an external hard drive for use with the Omega. They are cheap and small. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3634 Registered: 5-2002 |
The Fostex MR-8HD weighs 6 pounds and is 12" wide; so the load in, setup, breakdown, load out cost is relatively small compared to the laptop/Omega. Ending up with wav tracks on my main computer seems relatively easy. The only negative comment I've seen so far is its lack of preamps for the mic inputs; which for my purposes of sticking two mics on the stage and recording live sound is probably not an issue. There is no additional media cost; total outlay would be around $400. At the moment, this seems the best solution. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3635 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks Robert. I haven't seen anything about using an external drive with the Omega. How does that work? | ||
| edwin
Intermediate Member Username: edwin Post Number: 140 Registered: 5-2002 |
I use a mic splitter, 24 channels of good pres and an Alesis HD24! But for quick set up and no hassle, I use a Micro Track. The two things that were in its favor for me were the balanced mic preamps (although the phantom power is only 30 volts. My Rode NT5s work, but my 414s don't) and the s/pdif in. With the latter I can use a Grace Lunatec V3 as a preamp with very high quality results. I can also record the output of my Behringer DDX3216 digital board. It also works great with Core Sound mics. It does feel a little cheap and the meters are pretty mickey mouse. the high quality mp3 setting does sound pretty good. Edwin | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3638 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks Edwin! There's something to be said for quick setup and no hassle. | ||
| zuperdog
Junior Username: zuperdog Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2005 |
Dave- I use the external drive as an extension of my laptop. I find that a firewire drive slows the processor down a bit less, and it's more convenient to keep everything seperate, as you end up with some big files after a while. Honestly, for what you're talking about doing, I don't think the Omega is the best choice. It's not huge, but still a lot more work to setup and deal with than an all in one, especially if you're doing it yourself while playing. That being said, if you don't mind the setup, it does work and sound great. |
