| Author | Message | ||
| rockbassist
Member Username: rockbassist Post Number: 64 Registered: 8-2005 |
I was looking for a good metal polish to clean the hardware on my Epics. I saw Flitz Metal Polish in the Alembic store. A 1.76 oz tube is $12.95. I then went to the Flitz website and saw that I could buy the same size direct from them for less than $8. This made me wonder. I would assume that Alembic buys this for less than $8 (probably between $4-$6) so why the huge markup? Also, are the $115 straps really any better than the $30-40 straps at music stores and just how much does it really cost to make a bass? I love my Epics and I am not trying to sound cheap but if Alembic is marking up polish by more than 100% how much are they marking up other products? | ||
| crgaston
Member Username: crgaston Post Number: 84 Registered: 11-2005 |
I imagine quite a bit. Why? To stay in business, and to make a decent living for themselves. Alembic is now making about 1500 instruments a year. If you figure they're grossing 3000.00 per instrument, on average (I have no clue, really, that's just a guess based on looking at the retail price list and figuring they gross about half of that, and guesstimating the percentage of Excels and Epics compared to everything else), their gross revenue from instruments would be about 4.5 million. Then come corporate taxes. Then overhead, like property tax, payroll tax, health insurance, retrement for their employees, liability insurance, utilities, phone bills, internet servers, building maintenance, equipment costs and maintenance. Then come expendables, like sawblades, sandpaper, glue, and finish materials. Then come materials, like exotic woods, fretwire, mother-of-pearl and abalone, silver, brass and gold. Don't forget mil-spec pots, circuit buards, silver paint, wire, and solderless connectors for the electronics. Any screwups in the extremely demanding build process, and any materials they buy which don't meet thir quality standards, they have to swallow the cost. Then whatever is left, they have to split between at least 15 people, just looking at the folks on the website. Now that I think about it, they would probably have to be pulling in a fair bit more than 4.5 million a year to keep the lights on. Remember that Alembic is a manufacturer, rather than a retailer. Retail markup can be significantly less because of the amount of work involved. How much effort does it take to unwrap a guitar and hang it on the wall until it sells compared to actually building the thing? Also, look at this link. http://www.moodyleather.com/strap4inch.aspx 115.00 doesn't sound so bad after that! Let's face it; Alembic doesn't want to sell you Flitz. If you want them to throw it in on a bigger order, they can do that, and you pay a few bucks for the convenience. Alembic wants to sell you the best instrument it can build, and it will build that instrument exactly the way you want it. In today's world, that costs a lot of money. If Alembic ever decided to go public, which I hope they don't, I would invest in them in a heartbeat. They offer a unique product and amazing customer service, and have a rock solid market niche to boot. The Wickershams have been doing this for most of their lives, out of love, and not for the money, and there will come a time when they won't be able to any more. I for one am delighted to be contributing to their retirement and to their grandchildren's college fund, and to be rewarding them for a lifetime spent pursuing a dream. Peace, Charles | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1006 Registered: 3-2004 |
Kevin- I am speaking here as a customer with some business knowledge, not a representative of the company. With regard to the straps, they are great. Functionally, they're probably not much better than a $50 Levy's strap, but I am quite happy to have mine at the price. I think you can get one for a few bucks less direct from Moody and without the Alembic logo. With regard to the basses, Alembic has historically made something on the order of 500-800 instruments a year (my estimate based upon the serial number progression). The care that goes into every one of those instruments is above and beyond anyone else in the industry. The wood and metalworking that they do is fabulous, and ask anyone who has an instrument with a custom inlay how they feel about it. Since most of their instruments come out clear-coated you might overlook the finish work, but that would be a mistake with all the coats they apply to get that shiny and durable finish. While there other builders out there that might match the construction quality, the one thing that sets Alembic apart is the electronics package. There just isn't any competition. What sort of income do you think a company has to make to support 15-20 employees and just stay above water? Don't forget their location and the associated cost of living. There's no doubt that it feels expensive when you go to place an order for a new custom, but I think the numbers make sense when it comes to keeping the company healthy. Think of it also as a basic supply and demand thing. Custom instruments currently take months to get built because there is a continuous backlog at today's prices. If all the prices dropped by even 10%, wouldn't you expect some increase in orders? If so, who would fill those orders? As far as the metal polish goes, that's a service provided by Alembic more than it is an attempt to sell you something. I suspect that even at a $6 profit per bottle, it's not a great return on their time investment compared to their core business. -Bob PS - Just read Charles' post after writing this and before saving. Charles, where'd you get the idea that they are making 1500 instruments a year? From the stolen list, I see that 12403 was a 2000 and 12679 was a 2001. Last I heard, they were still short of 14000 when I ordered my bass on 12/31/2004. That would be about 1600 instruments over four years, even lower than my estimate above. | ||
| ajdover
Advanced Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 313 Registered: 11-2003 |
Kevin, Any product is only worth what someone will pay for it, and Flitz is no exception. If $12.95 is too much for you and you can get it cheaper via the Flitz company's website, I say go for it. As Charles notes, Alembic's not in business of selling Flitz or straps - they're here to sell what I consider the finest basses and guitars on the planet, cost be damned. To me, you're buying more than an instrument when you're buying an Alembic. Without waxing too philosophic here, I submit that you're buying into the idea of excellence. One look at any Alembic instrument, from the lowest model to the highest in terms of cost, tells the potential customer that at least in terms of craftsmanship, no corners are cut, and no detail is too small. I can say this because I own two Essences, one a '91 and one a '92, as well as an '03 Spyder, an '03 Europa, and an '04 Dragon's Wing. I've also seen older Alembics elsewhere, to include an '81 Series 1 Standard Point while I was in Korea. In every case the quality was the same - without peer. I also own four Fenders - a '73 Jazz, a '76 Precision, an '05 Jazz Bass Deluxe MIA, and an MIJ Jazz ('94). I can say confidently that the quality varies from bass to bass. Same goes for the other 10 or so instruments from other manufacturers that I have (Rickenbacker, Peavey, Godin, Musicman, Ovation, Gibson). Not so with Alembic. While mass produced instruments have come a long way in terms of quality, Alembic's quality has always been what it is today - superlative. Whether someone likes the Alembic sound, look, and feel is a purely subjective thing, but there is no denying what I consider unparalleled quality and attention to detail. I can't say that about Fender, Gibson, Musicman etc. to the same level of fidelity. They make fine instruments, but their quality control and attention to detail in my experience is not remotely close to the level of Alembic, nor should they be for the price. Again, you get what you pay for, and it's only worth it if you're willing to pay it. You're also buying into something that sadly is fading from the American landscape - that of the family owned business. You need only look around at the plethora of chain stores, restaurants, Walmarts, etc. to see this. These corporate entities offer the same things everywhere, and usually at the same price. There is nothing remarkable or unique about them, nothing to make the dining, shopping, or purchasing unique or worth remembering. It's just another restaurant, store, etc. When I order a custom from Alembic, or buy a used piece, I feel I'm getting something unique, something made with care by people who put their souls into the contstruction of an instrument rather than a faceless corporation whose sole concern seems to be the bottom line. In short, if you gave me a choice of one Alembic vs. 10 Fenders, I'd go with the Alembic every time. I can buy a Fender anytime and it will be the same everytime (though quality won't be the same in my experience). With the exception of their quality construction and materials, I can't say that with Alembic, but that's what's attractive to me - it is different, it is unique, and in the case of a custom, it's made only for me to my specifications. Sure, you can order a custom shop Fender, Gibson, etc., but it will be a modification (usually) to an existing model rather than something made wholly for you. If you look at the COM thread, you will see numerous examples of instruments made wholly to a customer's wishes. The Alembird comes to mind, as does a doubleneck there, and this month's COM. The Moody Straps are worth every penny IMHO. A Guitar Center bought strap doesn't even come close IMHO. I have one from Alembic and one I bought off Talkbass. They both cost roughly the same, so I suspect that Alembic is making as least as much on these straps as Talkbass is. Bottom line is you should pay what you're comfortable paying, regardless of make or manufacturer. If you think Alembic charges too much, you can look for a used piece or not buy at all and choose another marque. In the end, only you can determine whether the expense justifies the cash outlay. Alan (Edited spelling of member's name) (Message edited by davehouck on February 18, 2006) | ||
| richbass939
Senior Member Username: richbass939 Post Number: 575 Registered: 11-2004 |
As usual, club members have made very good (if differing) points. I think we all agree that there is nothing cheap about Alembics. They are not inexpensive either. I have no idea what Alembic's profit margin is. I think that if a person or family creates and maintains something superlative they deserve to make money from it even if it is more than they need to keep the doors open. Yes, the Wickershams live and run a business in an expensive part of the country. It appears they like it there. I am happy that they are able to live where they want to live. They offer something unique (IMHO) to the music world and I'm happy they have reaped some financial reward for their commitment and efforts. I would rather that they have the things that make them happy than to cut back on what they want personally so that they can offer instruments for a few hundred dollars less. As far as Alembic going public, I would love to see it happen to a degree. If you guys ever want to sell company stock (I hope the Wickershams read this) I know a lot of us would jump at the chance. I would! I'm sure none of us would want half or more of the voting shares to be outside the family but I would love to see a minority interest offered to investors. As far as how Alembic is doing business, I say keep on keeping on. I could find less expensive instruments that would probably play and sound fine. But as I get on in life I've found that I want a few things that I feel are the best. I have loved playing music for over forty years. I enjoy it more than ever since I bought my Alembics. Rich | ||
| crgaston
Member Username: crgaston Post Number: 85 Registered: 11-2005 |
Bob, not sure where I got that number, but I think I remember reading or deducing that that's what they're up to over the past year or two. I could easily be wrong. | ||
| dejan
Junior Username: dejan Post Number: 29 Registered: 1-2006 |
Hi,I play electric bass for livin',and I've joined this club from just a month.I think that Alembic basses are fantastic instruments but readin' your threads I evinced that must of you don't play for livin' but for hobby(and it's good)!I read a lot of discussions about neck laminates,gold hardware,triple omega etc.but music is another thing.I see Alembic instruments only in seventies photos and in tribute band for Who or Grateful Dead.This is OK,great bands and great music but we are in 2006!I hope that in the future Alembic and Alembicians will valute more music than aesthetic,because one thing is to be a rich collector other thing is to play bass and make music(not important if for hobby or for job).When Stanley played "Journey To Love" Alembic was an innovative instrument,and the story must go on!It's hard for me to write this post,but I hate instruments like Fodera and Sadowsky for their incredible price without reason,and I love Alembic but it's important to have respect for money and for young musicians that make great sacrifice to buy a good instrument.... to play it and not to pay too money to polish it.Love,Davide! (Message edited by dejan on February 18, 2006) | ||
| hb3
Member Username: hb3 Post Number: 80 Registered: 2-2005 |
and there you have it! | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 627 Registered: 9-2002 |
I'll say what I always say about this and previous, similar discussions: Their Business is none of my business. I appreciate ALEMBIC for what it is, admire the way the Wickershams and their family do their business, and COULD NOT AGREE MORE how wonderful it is to do business with a FAMILY business, instead of just one more faceless organization that's worried about their stock performance at the expense of everything (even their customers and employees)else. Same thing with Allison @ Moody. I would MUCH rather know who's getting my money, and know I was helping build a small business run by VERY deserving friends. Who gets your money when you buy from Guitar Center? How many of us here came to ALEMBIC first after buying used, and were treated like we bought six Series Twos brand new? So I'm just tickled with whatever they want to charge me, because I'm spending money with friends. These instruments are the best in the world. That's never cheap. But for the magic they provide in my life, I can't put a price on that. J o e y | ||
| peever
New Username: peever Post Number: 7 Registered: 2-2006 |
the price of the instument is mainly based on the labor involved. For example a bass or guitar with many laminations will cost more to do because theres alot more labour involved. But you cant blame them for trying to make money. | ||
| ajdover
Advanced Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 314 Registered: 11-2003 |
"Hi,I play electric bass for livin',and I've joined this club from just a month.I think that Alembic basses are fantastic instruments but readin' your threads I evinced that must of you don't play for livin' but for hobby(and it's good)!I read a lot of discussions about neck laminates,gold hardware,triple omega etc.but music is another thing.I see Alembic instruments only in seventies photos and in tribute band for Who or Grateful Dead.This is OK,great bands and great music but we are in 2006!I hope that in the future Alembic and Alembicians will valute more music than aesthetic,because one thing is to be a rich collector other thing is to play bass and make music(not important if for hobby or for job).When Stanley played "Journey To Love" Alembic was an innovative instrument,and the story must go on!It's hard for me to write this post,but I hate instruments like Fodera and Sadowsky for their incredible price without reason,and I love Alembic but it's important to have respect for money and for young musicians that make great sacrifice to buy a good instrument.... to play it and not to pay too money to polish it.Love,Davide!" All excellent points. I am one of the hobbyists you refer to, and you're right, it's all good. I would submit, though, it's because we want to bring pleasure to ourselves and others through music that we choose Alembic, not because we're collectors, have the money, etc. I think a lot of us discuss hardware, electronics, etc. because that's part of the fun of having something built just for oneself. I know it is for me! :-) When I was younger there was no way I could afford a new Alembic. Hell, I probably couldn't have afforded a used Alembic! That, however, didn't stop me from wanting one. Flash forward to 2003. I get my first Alembic, an '84 Spoiler-Exploiter. I am hooked, I am in totally. It became (and still is) somewhat of an addiction, though a healthy one at that (well, not on my pocketbook, but that's another story entirely!). If I were playing for a living, I'd pick the tool that was right for the job. I own Fender, Gibson, Rickenbacker, Musicman, Peavey, Pedulla, Godin, Ovation, and Alembic basses. All have their strengths and weaknesses. However, of all those instruments, none has the versatility of an Alembic IMHO. Of course, many factors will go into the choice of a professional regarding which instrument he chooses, none the least of which is ease of use in a recording or live situation, requirements of engineers, mixers, type of music being played, desired tone, etc. I've done the same thing myself, and I don't earn my living playing bass. I have and do use all my Alembics on gigs when I'm able to do so. I don't keep them in the closet or under the bed. They are a tool, albeit a finely crafted tool. Do I take more care with them than I do my other basses? Of course I do given their expense. Only natural I think. But this doesn't stop me from using them to effect their stated purpose - to make music. Same goes for my other basses. They're there to be played, not hung on a wall and worshipped. As I noted above, any instrument is only worth what one is willing to pay for it. In my view an Alembic is for any number of reasons. Sadowskys aren't to me, but they are for others. Same goes for Fodera and any other number of marques. It's cliche, but truly this is a case of to each his own. Me? I'm going to continue to patronize the Wickershams and their wonderful company as long as I play bass because I like them and they're worth it to me. Their instruments reach me in a way no other instrument does (with the possible exception of my '73 Jazz - most comfortable instrument I've ever strapped on). I hope to hear more from you in the Club here on your perspectives as a working professional bassist. I'm sure there's a lot we all can learn from you. Alan | ||
| dejan
Junior Username: dejan Post Number: 30 Registered: 1-2006 |
Hi Alan,I appreciate and condivide your post,except the last phrase!I don't want to teach nothing,my last post was only a way to start a discussion about exagerate cost of some musical instruments and accessories,sorry if you have interpretated it like a"lesson of life",absolutely not!I have much respect for everyone here in the forum and I like Wickersham's work,this is the cause I em here!But I think that sometime is necessary to provocate,logically with maximum respect to you!So I think that you can learn a lot from me like from evryone in the Club!Bye | ||
| ajdover
Advanced Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 315 Registered: 11-2003 |
Davide, No worries here. It's all good. I know no one's lecturing anyone else here, and my post was not meant in that vein. Again, no worries. I look forward to more of your posts! Alan | ||
| zn_bassman
Member Username: zn_bassman Post Number: 83 Registered: 4-2005 |
Alan, there's no shortage of family businesses where you are now. ;-) | ||
| dejan
Junior Username: dejan Post Number: 31 Registered: 1-2006 |
No problem Alan,I like this forum because it's important to hear your opinions,and my point of view can be no correct!So,if you need something from Italy or from me don't have problem to call me!I work in Milano but I came from Sardinia and if you want,you're welcome to my house for summer holidays.Bye and sorry for my English! This is a picture of the sea near to my home!  (Message edited by davehouck on February 19, 2006) | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3260 Registered: 5-2002 |
Wow! Nice view! | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 998 Registered: 7-2004 |
Davide: Welcome to the club. No need to apologize about your english. Your command of the language is at least as good as the current President of the U.S., and it's far superior to my Italian (pizza, fettucine alfredo, cappucino, Al Pacino). Here's a picture of the water looking out my deck. The cluster of buidings is San Francisco.   Bill, the guitar one (Message edited by davehouck on February 19, 2006) (Message edited by mica on February 21, 2006) | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3263 Registered: 5-2002 |
That's a nice view too Bill! | ||
| dejan
Junior Username: dejan Post Number: 33 Registered: 1-2006 |
Wonderful view Bill,I hope to come to visit San Francisco in the next future,my friend told to me that it's a great place.In the next picture you can see the pub where I play during the summer with my jazz trio(white house with the garden).If you will come in La Maddalena we can organize a jam session.I hope to meet someone of you in the future!Bye  (Message edited by davehouck on February 19, 2006) | ||
| j_gary
Intermediate Member Username: j_gary Post Number: 187 Registered: 6-2005 |
Hi Davide, great to hear from your part of the world. If the photo above is where you live, you are one of the "richest" people on this forum, beautiful. If I may, a couple of thoughts on the professional vs hobby point. I am a full-time "professional" firefighter in a city of 160,000 bordering Detroit. The outer ring small towns typically use volunteer or part time firefighters. After 20 plus years in this business and having my hat handed to me numerous times, I give the part time, or "hobby" firefighters, as much if not more respect as the full-time. These guys do the work and take the risks not for the money, they do it because they love the job. I was a full-time musician for ten years. I think as humans we become complacent with time. I was making good money for a while but spent little time honing my craft as I spent so much time "working". I was playing bass or guitar depending on the band. Unfortunately, my full-time music experience paralleled my firefighter career. Way too often the full time guys become complacent or satisfied with where they are. This is displayed at the hobby level as well. Their gear is usually old and dirty, they are resistant to new ideas, have the been there done that attitude. I am often suspicious of the poverty plea. I did, and watched others, spend a fortune on babes, beer and fun(God I miss those days), while the equipment languished. While a new Alembic can be a tall order for the average working guy, there are plenty of great deals on wonderful used pieces that anyone working should be able to afford. I feel it is a case of priorities. What is important to you, are you a student of your craft, do you want to be and play the best you can. Not just as a musician, but in your work as well. I have been slapped around twice by the IRS for taking deductions that were work related. Both in my fire and music careers my equipment investments were so out of line with my income, I got red flagged. I vividly recall arguing with the IRS agent that I needed these items to do my job well. Her crushing reply was, "If you want to be the best, you have to be prepared to pay for it, not the American taxpayer". Are Alembics worth the money if all you want to do is make music? Depends on what you want, and your style. If you are a Jamerson type laying down a big fat foundation for a rhythm section, maybe not. If you are the next Clarke flame thrower, you may want to ante up. My point is that this forum, and most Alembicians, appear to be heavily represented by students of the craft. They may be wealthy collectors or hobbyists, but I would give them a wide birth if any were to appear on my stage. I would argue that most players who have made the Alembic commitment are eager students, pushing the envelope to improve or be better. This would explain the close analyzing of every aspect of the instrument. There is little credence given to, "well that's the way it's always been done so it's good enough". My personal experience with Alembic began after I had been playing for 38 plus years. I approached with caution as I wanted a Series bass and they are expensive. I had considered myself a student of the craft and was not convinced Alembic was much different than other high end basses I had owned. I could not have been more wrong or surprised. I found an absolute difference that dramatically changed the way I play. The sound and feel changes you. I sold a Miata I had to buy a beautiful looking and sounding Series II, thanks again Bill, and feel I stole the bass for all it gives me. Well Davide, excellent point about opening up some discussion as you certainly have, well done. Sorry about the length, and my poor English. Yours is quite good by the way. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 1002 Registered: 7-2004 |
Here's some S.F. Bay pics with better lighting. First, here's Oakland  Now San Francisco  Golden Gate  Marin  Bill, tgo | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1009 Registered: 3-2004 |
Davide- First, welcome to the club! I would have to agree that there are quite a few instruments on the market that are more expensive than they appear to warrant, but I don't count Alembics among them. Even then, a new Alembic is still quite an expensive purchase, one that many can't afford to repeat all that often. As such, there is a lot of discussion in order to try to get it right the first time. Even so, there's the occasional player who receives their instrument and wishes they had upgraded something here and there. Many a player has been spoiled by exposure to an instrument loaded with Series electonics. As far as I can tell, this board is mostly populated by players. A few may play as their primary source of income and many of us play regular weekend gigs. I think that few, if any, are collectors who do not play their instruments so performance counts to all of us. I'm not sure of your background, but many players not familiar with Alembic instruments don't understand the impact of all the offered features. Different options on these basses meet different needs. It seems from your post that you're looking at gold hardware and thinking it is purely cosmetic? Not so. The plated hardware is there because a bass that gets a lot of use will require less cleaning to keep it from deteriorating than brass will. I'll grant you that body shapes are largely cosmetic aside from balance issues, but I can say from personal experience that the cosmetics of the instrument can be a source of inspiration. Finally, neck wood choices definitely impact tone, possibly more than any other decision one makes about an instrument. Poke around the FAQ section and do a few searches and you will find a lot of discussion about these things. The tonal impact of wood, the versatility of different electronics packages and how convenient different control setups are for switching tones during a performance have all been popular topics over the past. Hopefully these things will help you better understand where we are coming from and why some of these decisions are important to us. Happy playing! -Bob | ||
| dejan
Junior Username: dejan Post Number: 34 Registered: 1-2006 |
Hi Gary,first I want to show you my respect and admration for your work,difficoult,dangerous and important for all of us,great!Now it's necessary for me to make clear the difference between play for job and play for hobby(by my point of view).Play for hobby is better because you can play the music that you like,with people that you like when you like and where you like,this is the best condition to express yourself throug your instrument and it would be wonderful for me to play always with this state of mind!Now I talk about professional musicians(like part of you,i suppose).I want to describe my situation:I work professionally from 4 years but I work with music since 1994.Actually in Italy it's not a good moment for music,and it's difficoult to work so,it's indispensable to play everytime is possible and in any situation,from Jazz standards to Pop music,ethnic music and ballroom orchestra etc.We have to study to learn a lot of songs and sometime you make a lot of sacrifice for nothin' and when you say that work as musician,people think that you are a "good for nothing"etc.But no problem.I live with a little of money,when I'm not playn' I'm studin'to became a better musician and to have more possibilities to work.So,for people like me,to play is not always a pleasure.I love my instruments,it's throug their voice that I comunicate (or I try to do it)with people that come to listn to me.To buy an instrument is a great sacrifice for me(no problem,I choose to do this job)and sometime I read in this forum "interstellar Price".I know that to Build an Alembic is a great work,state of the art,good sound(like other instrument)but I think that after you have paid 15000$ for a bass it would be nice to hve a strap or a case x homage!Now I desire to exit from this thread because I don't want to continue this argoment....I've nothing to say more about this.I want to thank you everybody for answer to my post...you are great!Bye,now I must leave the forum to go to play at the Ballroom(there are a lot of beautiful girls,medium age 70/80.....WOW)BYE | ||
| hb3
Member Username: hb3 Post Number: 81 Registered: 2-2005 |
no, wait, post more pictures! oh well.... | ||
| dejan
Junior Username: dejan Post Number: 35 Registered: 1-2006 |
Oh,it's late,my director will kill me tonight!This is for you,La Spiaggia Rosa(The Pink Beach),pink sand for coral frames,Budelli Island(La Maddalena Natural Park-Sardinia)here's the link http://www.lamaddalena.com/ Bye!  (Message edited by davehouck on February 19, 2006) | ||
| old_guy
Junior Username: old_guy Post Number: 11 Registered: 2-2006 |
Diverse site! In one day I got outdoor grilling recipies, and went real estate shopping! About brass polish, Having Alembics since the 70's, I've learned that no matter how hard one tries the finish on tail pieces and bridges goes away. Like grey hair it becomes a statis of age and experience. 30 some years of hard work from a fine instrument gives it permission to show i'ts age. I spent 10 years behind a mixing board some 200 feet away and found the drum kit has enough flash and sparkle for one stage. For instruments with brite metalwork be careful as most polished are abrasive. NeverDul and Mothers brand metal polish remove "layers" to reveal new metal, and it shines. Good luck. Michael S. | ||
| crgaston
Member Username: crgaston Post Number: 86 Registered: 11-2005 |
Gary, we may be long lost brothers- I'm a former touring musician who is now a schoolteacher, and I'll be selling my Miata before my custom order with Series II electronics gets here! Charles | ||
| j_gary
Intermediate Member Username: j_gary Post Number: 188 Registered: 6-2005 |
Hi Charles, I'm feeling sorry for the Miata. Looks like she is the first to go from the toy-box. Great minds think alike eh? My Miata was a 91, white, excellent condition. I miss her and hope to get another soon. What was yours? If we are related I hope you got deeper into the gene pool. Although I'm very pretty, the walking and chewing gum thing is an issue. It's reflected in the playing and singing thing. Also, I'm not brave enough to be a teacher. Is your new bass on the factory/customer thread? I'll take a look. You will love the Series II electronics. Takes a while to get her down but the performance is amazing. Davide, great talking to you. About the medium aged babes, 70/80? Hope you are also a paramedic. Have a good show and watch the volume. | ||
| crgaston
Member Username: crgaston Post Number: 87 Registered: 11-2005 |
Gary, Mine's white, '91, excellent condition...haven't started selling any guns yet. I don't know about the bravery thing, though. You go INTO burning buildings. I was pretty intimidated by teaching at first, as I'm pretty introverted by nature. I found myself relying on some of the same skills that I used on stage, though. It's a performance, and I'm playing a part. No FTC yet; the work order just went to the shop on Thursday. Specs can be seen on the thread in Miscellaneous called "A Great Day!" | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 628 Registered: 9-2002 |
La Spiaggia Rosa . . . geez, EVERYTHING sounds wonderful in Italian ! ! J o e y | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 629 Registered: 9-2002 |
La Spiaggia Rosa . . . geez, EVERYTHING sounds wonderful in Italian ! ! J o e y | ||
| rockbassist
Member Username: rockbassist Post Number: 65 Registered: 8-2005 |
I spent 20 years working in the retail and wholesale environment as everything from a buyer to a regional manager. I know how markups work and how much companies markup in order to make a profit. I would never criticize anybody for making money when they can. I honestly hope that I did not offend anyone with this topic. I love my Epics even though I realize they are not the "Top Of The Line" Alembic. They are still better than anything else available at a comparable price. I love the tone, shape and feel of them. I also own a 1976 Fender Precision. Anybody who reads Bass Player Magazine will note that they constantly make mention that anybody who is serious about playing bass must own an old Fender. I do not agree with that. I own it because I bought it for a very low price and I like the way it sounds and plays. My feeling is play what you love to play regardless of who made it. I had 2 points to make when I posted this topic. One was why the markup when Alembic could have just directed users to the Flitz site and worked out a deal on the back end and also how much does it really cost to make a bass? My concern is that if you go to the Alembic price list you will see Epics starting at $4,400 but if you look at EBAY or any other site they sell for less than $1,500. Why don't they hold their value? I have seen 1976 Fender Precisions similar to what I own selling for $1,800 to $2500 on EBAY and other sites. I paid less than $500 for mine. | ||
| ajdover
Advanced Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 316 Registered: 11-2003 |
First, let me thank Davide for the wonderful offer to spend summers at his place in Milano. Davide, you are also welcome to come visit myself and my wife in North Carolina. Bring your Alembic, I'll do the BBQ and we'll have a good time! To Kevin, I too am puzzled as to why a "vintage" Fender (and I own two of them" will hold or increase its value and an Alembic seemingly doesn't. I can only surmise that because Fender has been around so long, is more well known, has the "mystique of mojo," etc., is why they're worth more. They're also historical in the sense that at least the pre-CBS models were the first of their kind (Broadcaster, '51 P Bass, '54 Strat, etc.) and as such have a lot of historical provenance. An Alembic doesn't necessarily have that, unless, of course, you get one of the more famous ones (the Godfather, Wolf, John Entwistle's Spyders, etc.) with a celebrity pedigree. As I noted, I have a '73 Jazz and a '76 Precision. Neither are stock, though if I desired, I could return the Jazz back to stock if I wanted. I've noted that the Jazz basses of that era are going for $3500 or so these days, in good condition. I would consider mine in at least good condtion, and I paid $1350 for it less than 4 years ago, with original (though beat) case. Why are they going up in value? I don't know. Maybe it's because they don't make them like that anymore, they're old, well known? I don't know. Alembics are and have always been, IMHO, a much more niche instrument than your average mass produced instrument. This automatically limits their appeal to the vast majority of players. Exotic woods, finely machined and produced hardware, extremely close tolerances, unique electronics, etc. do not appeal to most players, for a lot of reasons. Price is one, and for a lot of guys and gals, the determining factor. Their controls sometimes give the average player fits because they're not intrinsically familiar to them (roll off, boost cut active, etc.). Given these and I'm sure many other individual and personal factors, they don't have as wide an appeal as I and most everyone here think they should have. I think the biggest reason for depreciation, though, is name recognition. I don't know how many times I've gone somewhere with one of my Alembics and no one else knew what brand it was. I don't know why this is - advertising has something to do with it. Low production numbers (compared to a Fender, Gibson, etc.) does too (limiting the number that are out there and other people see). Alembic also doesn't do endorsements, futher decreasing exposure. However, all of these things also permit Alembic, IMHO, to maintain the quality and reputation it enjoys amongst those who know of and use them. Most folks can't afford a new Alembic. The fact that they don't hold value as well as a vintage Fender etc. is a "plus" for those of us who want an Alembic but can't afford something new. So I don't necessarily see lack of resale value as a negative in this sense. As to why Alembic chose to market Flitz as they have, well, I guess you'd have to ask Susan or Mica about that one. BTW, I bought my P-Bass simply to round out what I have. I always swore I'd never have one, but I do. It is a nice instrument, but a one trick pony IMHO. It has a nice tone, but only one tone for the most part. My Alembics can do it all (well, they can't do a Rick, but nothing else can except another Rick), so for me, they're worth every penny. My two cents, Alan | ||
| crgaston
Member Username: crgaston Post Number: 88 Registered: 11-2005 |
This is a great discussion! I drove for seven hours today, and thought for awhile on this topic, and specifically Kevin's most recent post regarding resale. Alan covered a lot of what I was going to say in his post above, so I won't repeat it. Another thing to consider is that Alembic's list prices have increased drastically in the last 10 years or so. If you bought a new Epic in 95 for 1500, played it for 10 years, and then sold it for 1300 last year, you did good. On the other hand, seeing these basses for 1300 on ebay makes people not want to pay much more than that, so when someone tries to sell his 2 year old Epic that he gave 2500 for, he has to compete with that, or not sell his instrument. Why do people usually sell basses? Because they really need the money RIGHT NOW. Maybe they have bills to pay, or maybe they fell in love with another instrument and need to raise funds before somebody else gets it. In 1994 I had the opportunity to buy a brand new Europa for 1400 in Nashville. Granted, that was a blowout price, but now they retail for 6600. If I had bought that, it would have appreciated for sure. Alan, 3500 for a '73 Jazz? I am now kicking myself for getting rid of my '69 Jazz back in '96. I got it for 250 from a pawn shop where my girlfriend at the time worked. After the relationship ended, seems like every time I pulled that bass out, she would call and try to start something, so I swaped it for a G&L SB-2. The G&L is a much better playing and sounding bass, so I did good on the trade, but it probably wouldn't go for 500 bucks right now. Shows you what the "collectors" know. Gotta go, Charles | ||
| richbass939
Senior Member Username: richbass939 Post Number: 576 Registered: 11-2004 |
J Gary, the story about the IRS agent makes my blood boil. I wonder if she would dare bust on a fortune 500 company that buys or leases luxury cars for execs when three year old Kias would get them from point A to point B just fine. Why not disallow deductions for IBM computers when XYZ brand would do fine. Instead she would rather you go into a burning building with the cheapest turnout gear on the market. People like that would probably never understand why you would want an Alembic. Okay, I'm going to go cool off now. Rich | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1016 Registered: 3-2004 |
I also had a reply covering much of what AJ had to say, but I didn't get around to finishing it yesterday. I agree with all his points. One other thing to toss out about Fender basses. Take a look at their custom shop models. The Jaco and Pino models list for over $4000 each and these are still off-the-shelf instruments without user-specific customization. These basses are the same shape as the $500 instruments and using pretty much the same wood. What's different? The amount of labor they are putting in to make sure they are perfect, I suppose. These are still bodies cut from a single piece of wood with a bolt-on neck. They still have to take less labor to put together than a 5+ piece laminated neck glued to a 2+ piece laminated body with a bookmatch top etc. Then add that wood is alive. If a piece of neck wood goes bad and twists, Fender just bolts on another. That's got to be less work than ungluing a neck-through and building a new neck for it. Certainly no need to respray the whole Fender, but an Alembic needs a new finish if something like this happens. With regard to resale value, I suspect that many of the people paying large dollars for old Fenders were starting to play their instruments in the 50s, 60s and 70s. When we were learning to play, there were less than 2000 Alembics in existence and those were all high-end. Few of us have fond memories of our first "real" bass being a new Series I. I suspect that many of us here and elsewhere started on Fenders or clones. When we're feeling nostalgic, we want to hold that '71 Jazz that we played on 25 years ago. I sold mine 12 years ago and deeply regret it. I'd rather play my Alembic if I had to choose one, but the Jazz had a special vibe. In any case, the point is that a lot more players were exposed to Fenders in their youth and that creates a greater nostalgia-based demand from them in their later years. Just a thought... | ||
| ajdover
Advanced Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 317 Registered: 11-2003 |
Bob is absolutely right on in regards to the nostalgia factor, an aspect I hadn't considered. I bought my '73 Jazz for the very reason Bob succinctly notes - I had one in my youth and sold it. In fact, the Jazz I have now is exactly like the one I sold - All natural, white pickguard, black block neck, Badass II bridge, Seymour Duncan pickups. Same goes for my Rickenbackers - a product of my longing for the basses I played in my youth. Others I bought because they were always basses I wanted when younger but couldn't afford (Alembic, Gibsons, etc.). Others I just had to have (Pedulla, Peavey with a whammy bar, etc.). As time goes on, these instruments are only getting more expensive. I guess even nostalgia has its price! Charles: Yes, $3500 for a 70's Jazz. You would think they'd be less, but there it is. Alan | ||
| dejan
Junior Username: dejan Post Number: 37 Registered: 1-2006 |
Alan,it's incredible,we play the same basses!I own a Peavey,a Pedulla and a Fender jazz with Badass bridge and Seymour Duncan Pickups!!(One of us spy the other one's movements...pay attention) ;-)    (Message edited by mica on February 21, 2006) | ||
| ajdover
Advanced Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 318 Registered: 11-2003 |
Davide, My Pedulla is an MVP 4, while I have three Jazz's; a '73 with the Seymours and the Badass; an 05 MIA Deluxe; and a '94 MIJ with Seymour's and a Badass. My Peavey is an '89 Dyna Bass Unity Series limited with the Kahler. Great minds think alike as they say. ;-) Alan     (Message edited by mica on February 21, 2006) | ||
| dejan
Junior Username: dejan Post Number: 38 Registered: 1-2006 |
Great Alan,beautiful basses.My Pedulla is a MVP PJ 5,the Peavey is a BQuad4(I've only ghanged the finish of the Modulus neck,now it is natural graphite satin),this is actually my main bass,two active VFL soapbar pickups and a Fishman piezo on a Wilkinson bridge with stereo outputs,I have the possibility to split E string on the left and A string on the right x ex.what can I ask more?The Fender is a Deluxe 5 with Badass bridge,Basslines pickups,Aguilar OBP3 electronic(18V)and Hipshot Ultralight tuners.I also changed the nut(real bone)and the pickguard(now is satin black,I don't like Turtoise!) So now I'm ready for an Alembic (I've owned an Elan4 but it was not good for my taste,the Alembic sound that I aspire is Series1).Bye Alan and thanks to invite me in North Carolina,I hope that we will play together in the future!The picture figure a soundcheck before a summer concert in my beautiful little island (La Maddalena)  | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 3083 Registered: 6-2000 |
Usually if someone asks about cleaning old hardware, I advise that you can purchase Flitz from a local marine or gun shop, or you can buy it from us if you can't find it locally. When you get Flitz from us, we include an ultra-soft disposable wiper and a little insert on properly cleaning your hardware. We use a standard markup (or less) for items that we do not manufacture. I'm sure we don't get the best discount from Flitz, since we buy in small quantities. I visited the Flitz website, and they seem to sell the same 50g tube for $10.70. I've seen it priced lower other places, like flitz-polish.com, but of course, they only sell Flitz, so I suspect they buy in slightly bigger quantities than we do. About going public, I can't imagine it ever happening. One look at the "profit" margins would send investors reeling in laughter, they would be looking for more than we can offer in that arena. Nice pictures everyone - it's always interesting to see how threads wander. | ||
| old_guy
Junior Username: old_guy Post Number: 14 Registered: 2-2006 |
Nice knowing the Pedulla's are still out there. I had one in the 80's. Pedulla-Orsini then. Kept cracking at head stock joint. Michael P. always honored his warranty though. Last I herd it found its way to Cincinnati. My 76 S-1 out lived many basses, and still stands in the corner almost laughing! Michael S. | ||
| j_gary
Intermediate Member Username: j_gary Post Number: 190 Registered: 6-2005 |
Hi Mica, I hope you are right about the laughing investors. The ones I worry about have no sense of humor, loyalty or honor. They would pay dearly for the Alembic name and reputation for quality. Then slap the name on everything from biscuits to bunnies. Oh, and the guitars? Boatloads from Tic Tac Toe guitar and beer nut factory. Jeez, I'm sending this stuff to Debbie Downer of Saturday Night Live. Make em show you the money Mica. And require a change in the spelling to Olympic. Davide, PLEASE can I join your band! Beautiful photo. | ||
| rockbassist
Member Username: rockbassist Post Number: 66 Registered: 8-2005 |
I was fortunate enough to buy 2 Epics for less than $1800 total. I bought one at a Guitar Center and one from a private owner on ebay. As someone who spent 20 years working in retail management, I fully understand supply and demand economics. The point of my original email was why the huge markup on Flitz and how much is Alembic marking up everything else? Why not just work out a deal with Flitz and provide a link to them? My second point was that even though I love my 76 Precision and 78 Jazz basses, I cannot understand why Alembics do not resale for more than them. I agree with ajdover and crgaston that the reason Fenders are in demand is because of name recognition and the fact that they were the first. But were they really the first? Ampeg was the first to amplify a bass with it's peg/pickup on upright basses. They called it and "Amplified Peg" which is where the name Ampeg came from. Leo Fender made the first true bass guitar or electric bass. Alembic is better made and has better tone and feel than anything else I have played. While other users might not agree with my opinion, I love the feel, tone and playability of Epics, Essences and other similar styled Alembics. I am not a big fan of the Mark or Series basses because I do not like the style or the way the feel. That is just my opinion so please do not email me. I respect what anyone plays as long as they are happy with it. My philosophy has always been "play what makes you happy and make the most of it". I love my Epics. I live less than 10 minutes from where Pedulla is made and wouldn't even think of using them. I played several of their basses and have a very good friend who worked for them. I have tried pretty much every bass they make and every manufacturer there is. In my opinion the only thing that comes close to Alembic in terms of sound and feel is a Warwick Neck Through Thumb Bass. Alembic is without a doubt the bass for me. | ||
| j_gary
Intermediate Member Username: j_gary Post Number: 191 Registered: 6-2005 |
Hi Rich, just found your post, thanks. I had not thought about my IRS issues in that vain. You make an excellent point as I was making less than $20,000 a year both times I got audited. Once as a musician, and once as a new firefighter. The root of the problem both times was the fact that I spent over 10% of my income on equipment, and claimed it as deductions. I believe the catch is, you may only deduct items that your employer requires you to have. You cannot claim personal choice items that you decide to use at work. Stay low richbass939, with a name like that I fear the IRS is watching! | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 1017 Registered: 7-2004 |
Why do used Fenders and Gibsons sell for more than used Alembics? I believe this can partly be understood when one realizes A LOT more people are familiar with Fender & Gibson. I suspect if you stood outside a Guitar Center and conducted a poll of the people coming out in which you asked them which new bass would they prefer for free: Fender Precision or Alembic Series II, the overwhelming majority would choose the Fender, simply because they never heard of Alembic. Obviously anyone in the know would pick the nearly $16,000 Series II over the $500 Precision, but most people aren't "in the know". Last year I discovered an instrument company called "Daion". They were based in Waco, Texas, and the instruments were built in Japan. The company existed roughly from 1978 through 1982 or 83. Their problem was that they made their instruments too well - not enough profit. They made a guitar, the Power Mark XX (and it's bass brother) that is the finest mass production Alembic-style "Hippie Sandwich" I've ever seen. Absolutely kicks ass on the Ibanez Musician's and Fernandes' of this world. I brought one up to show Susan at Alembic and she said they would need to charge at least $3000 for just equivalent woodwork. Yet I have obtained two of these guitars at about $800 each. I paid $1300 for a new PRS CE24 (a helluva deal) and the PRS still can't hold a candle to the Daions. I guess my point is that fair market value in the used instrument market has less to do with quality of instrument, and far more to do with perception, status, and what other people think. I go to the World Guitar Show twice a year when it comes around to Northern California. It seems like 90% of the instruments displayed are Fendsons or Gibers. EVERYBODY wants a Fengibderson. 90% of the vintage market focuses on a handful of brands and Alembic ain't one of them. There are many, many fine used guitars out there that bring little money because their manufacturer isn't in this "clique". Of course this could change in the future. Old Alembics could easily become the new vintage flavor at some point. A couple of good stories in the right magazines and used Alembic prices could see a steep climb. One thing I do believe is that the price of used Alembics won't be going down any time soon. Of course the reality of used Alembic prices might be disheartening when one is selling, but aren't they wonderful when one is buying? Bill, tgo | ||
| foth
Member Username: foth Post Number: 74 Registered: 12-2004 |
Bill's panoramic view  | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3321 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks Paul!!! I tried to do it but the software I was using at the time wasn't up to the task! | ||
| jlpicard
Advanced Member Username: jlpicard Post Number: 389 Registered: 7-2002 |
Personally, I'm in some ways glad that Alembics are not widely known to the average "Joe guitar player". IMHO, It is a special instrument played and appreciated by a small group of people who first and formost LOVE THE BASS! It is because of this love that we have sought out what we feel is the best way of expressing that love. Do you really want to see Alembics in the hands of some of the butchers that call themselves bassplayers? (I'll leave it to you to decide who I'm speaking about! Cmon, let's be honest. You know you've had the same thoughts while watching a guest band on Letterman or Leno or Saturday Nite Live). Let the masses have their Fenders, etc. I will live in quiet contentment knowing that I have found what is for me the pinacle of the bass world. I consider myself truely fortunate to own not one but several Alembics and hope that I will always be able to do them justice with my playing. Quite frankly, I could care less what the rest of the world thinks or doesn't think of Alembics. Their loss is my gain. |
