| Author | Message | ||
| jseitang
Intermediate Member Username: jseitang Post Number: 145 Registered: 6-2002 |
i know this is redundant, but i wanted quick response to how approx. get the genreal "phil tone off the sf2. anybody have some settings they would like to share? thanks | ||
| crgaston
Intermediate Member Username: crgaston Post Number: 135 Registered: 11-2005 |
I don't have one yet (it's on the way), but in general, the older tone is lots of highs and lows but light on the mids. His more recent stuff is similar, but has a healthy 800-1000Hz component thrown in. I'll check this post in a few days and let you know what I come up with as far as specific settings, although I imagine those will be directly applicable only to my own basses, rig, and touch. | ||
| jseitang
Intermediate Member Username: jseitang Post Number: 146 Registered: 6-2002 |
well if youre talking about the stuff he did with the ebo vs. the starfire, there is a lot of variations within that. then of course is his fabled osage orange alembic bass, which in my opinion was the sum of the two previous basses and more. | ||
| crgaston
Intermediate Member Username: crgaston Post Number: 136 Registered: 11-2005 |
For me, earlier is Alembic (including the Starfire) and later is Modulus (incl. Ken Smith). So I guess I divide it into 4 vs 6. | ||
| crgaston
Intermediate Member Username: crgaston Post Number: 160 Registered: 11-2005 |
OK, this may not exactly work for you, but should get you in the ballpark. Signal Chain: .8mm Clayton acetal triangular pick .45-.130 DR Sunbeam nickel strings 1999 Alembic Rogue 5 with Signature electronics and bass/treble boost/cut switches. F1-X SF-2 in effects loop QSC PLX 2402, parallel mono mode Bergantino EX 112 from channel 1 2 Eden D112XLT's from channel 2 Settings: Neck and bridge filters rolled off 20-25%, a bit more rolloff on the neck. Bridge Q switch off, neck Q off for normal, on for "angry!". Blend anywhere from even to full neck. The F1-X is in mono mode; ignore the crossover setting. The SF-2 is in mono so it acts as a 3 channel mixer. Basically I am using the bass' onboard filters to shape the high end, (which appears at the output as the direct gain), the left SF-2 channel for the lows, and the right SF-2 channel for the mids. Channel 1 of the SF-2 and F1X gain and eq settings-  This filter is in bandpass mode, so I am boosting the lows more the lower I play on the neck. With the 6dB/octave slope of the bandpass, this effect is more gradual than with the 12dB/octave lowpass setting. In other words, the filter kicks harder on the lower notes, so notes above D on the A string are lean and punchy, and the lower you go below that, the more thunderous it becomes. (Also, the room I was playing in has a huge standing wave at 110 Hz or so. I was able to induce feedback by sweeping the filter on and off 110. It was so huge the AC ducts were vibrating.) Here is Channel 2 of the SF-2-  This midrange setting works for my bass and cabinets; you may want to play with the frequency and damping ratio depending on what you've got. The direct gain knob is full up since that is what's controlling the highs (as well as the full range signal coming off the bass.) I really begin to notice the filters when the gain gets up to about 7. Below that, with the direct gain set at 10, I'm really not hearing a significant effect. Also, the low damping ratios help spread the boost out instead of concentrating it on one frequency, to my ears. I had it boosted pretty high to find the freq I was looking for, but then backed it off to get the sound I wanted. My best suggestion, really is to decide what you want to hear from the lows, mids, and highs, and go about finding them in a methodical manner. I started with the high end (direct gain 10, both filter gains 0),ignoring everything else, just using the pick on the open D string and tweaking the neck filter a bit at a time until I heard the sound I wanted. Then I turned down the direct gain, turned the 1st filter gain and damping ratio to 10, and found the bottom I freq I was looking for. Then I turned the direct gain back up and adjusted the filter gain and dampinf ratio down to where they blended well with the direct. Then I repeated the process with the second filter channel. It takes a while to adjust between different basses and different spaces, but I'm getting faster, and I've only had the SF-2 a little over a week. Trust your ears, and be methodical, and you will find what you're looking for. Good Luck, Charles | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 867 Registered: 7-2003 |
Charles: Your SF Channel 1 settings are similar to mine (when I go for Philtone) except I have it set lowpass and the frequency up just a little bit more. Can you elaborate a bit more about the "gradual" effect of using the bandpass vs. the lowpass in the low end of neighborhood? I've been playing an EBO with twin passive Dark Stars through SF and F1-X and a QSC PLX 2402 biamped to a 212 and an ELF 18. The effect is very close to Phil's EBO (not "hooty" like the Starfire) and a bit more raw than Alembic electronics. With TI JF344s the low end is just massive and enveloping and the D and G strings get very close to Phil's tone (think the bridge in "Wharf Rat") - I'd describe it as a combination between a hollow wooden resonance and a rubber band. Sounds like you've really taken to that SF. I've always found it good with Alembics, but even better with non-Alembics. It changes the capabilities of non-Alembic basses pretty radically. Bill | ||
| crgaston
Intermediate Member Username: crgaston Post Number: 165 Registered: 11-2005 |
Bill, I would normally have that frequency a little higher, too, but the room I was in was super boomy around 110 Hz, so it just got out of control if I went any higher. In my basement, I've gotten great results with the freq around 100 and the switch in lowpass mode, but it's small and rectangular and my partner gets disturbed if it's too loud, (stuff upstairs starts moving around). I love how you can be playing it veery quietly in the upper register, the hit a low note and have it pressurize the room, while still sounding quiet. Not loud, but huge?! Anyway, to answer your question: According to the manual, the lowpass setting has a 12 dB/octave slope above the selected frequency, which means that if the boost is centered at 50 Hz, then at 100 Hz it is 12 dB less than it is at 50. With a maximum 10 db boost on the Superfilter, you're not getting any real boost in that area from the filter. The bandpass setting has a 6dB/octave slope both above and below the selected frequency, so if the boost is centered at 50 Hz, then at 100 Hz, it is only 6 dB less than it is at 50. The downside to this is that it also is 6dB less at 25, which means the low B is losing probably 5 dB at the fundamental. With that band, I'm only playing a low B 2 or 3 times a set, but am using the C, C#, D and Eb pretty frequently, so I can live with it. I hope that is a better explanation. Let me know if it's still a bit muddy. This is an amazing little box, and I'm sure I will keep finding new ways to run it. I haven't really delved into running channel 1 into channel 2 yet, so who knows? And oh, yes, it makes the Modulus sound very, very good. Charles | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 611 Registered: 11-2002 |
I wouldn't know Philtone if it slapped me up'side the head (sorry)... But Charles has written a very nice piece here, about how to approach SF-2 settings, so I'll try to help out a little. I especially like the concept of listening to just one filter, until you find some aspect that you like, and then working on blending it back in with the rest of the sound. This works well for me, and Charles has provided a great example. As for the "gradual effect of using the bandpass vs. the lowpass in the low end of the neighborhood"... On Channel A, Charles has the frequency set all the way down to 45, with Q/Damping at a moderate 3. So there are two things going on here. First, the Q is giving him modest boost in a range somewhere around the low E or F. I don't know exactly what the range is, but it probably is making a difference down to B or C, certainly D, as well as somewhat higher (probably up to A, maybe B). Second, the low pass filter uses a 12 dB/octave slope, while the band pass uses a 6 dB slope. So once you get above the boost region, the band pass setting is progressively reducing the level, by half as much per octave compared to using a low pass filter. That's what he means by "gradual". Charles is getting a pretty good boost on the lowest few notes of his 5 string, and gradually ramping down (as he plays higher) from there. Assuming you (Bill) were using the same Damping, but a low pass at a higher frequency, then you would be getting a much sharper peak around whatever frequency you had set. Even if the Damping (Q) was the same, you would not be boosting the lowest notes as much, and above the frequency setting, you would be cutting them off twice as fast. In other words, Charles is getting a nice gradual increase as he goes down the scale, with some extra boost near the very bottom. In contrast, you are getting a sharper and narrower peak somewhere above the bottom. It's a little hard to explain, especially without drawing some pictures. I encourage you to try Charles' approach: turn off the direct gain and the other filter gain, and try both settings (better yet, set one filter each way, and alternately use one or the other). Hope that helps, a little. -Bob | ||
| crgaston
Intermediate Member Username: crgaston Post Number: 166 Registered: 11-2005 |
Dang, Bob, I'm an English teacher and you 'splain better than I do! Thanks! :-) | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 613 Registered: 11-2002 |
Perhaps, but it took me longer, so we overlapped :-) | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 868 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thanks Bob (and Charles). After I posted the question last night, I tried to visualize the effect of using the bandpass rather than the lowp. Pretty close to what I saw in my mind's eye... Now - gotta finish my coffee and get my lazy arse downstairs to try this all out. Thanks Viva las' filters! Bill | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 869 Registered: 7-2003 |
Changing the low end setting on the SF to bandpass reduced some of the boominess and increased the articulation. Overall a better, more useable sound. Thanks guys. BTW. This thread should be added to the SF-2 section of "Must Reads". Bill | ||
| jseitang
Intermediate Member Username: jseitang Post Number: 150 Registered: 6-2002 |
so how do you guys like the dark star pick ups going through a sf2? i think thats the live/dead sound. | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 870 Registered: 7-2003 |
Somewhere between that and Skullf**k. Probably closer to the latter with the EBO. Lots of Guild and DeArmand Starfires got 'em too. That probably gets closer to Live Dead and a lot of Casady's Guild sounds. | ||
| edwin
Intermediate Member Username: edwin Post Number: 139 Registered: 5-2002 |
I remember reading in an interview that Phil found the bandpass filters most useful in the Godfather and Osage Orange basses. Perhaps this is why. Edwin | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3579 Registered: 5-2002 |
Charles; that's an interesting configuration and a nice explanation!! Thanks! | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3580 Registered: 5-2002 |
Bill; added. Thanks! | ||
| crgaston
Intermediate Member Username: crgaston Post Number: 168 Registered: 11-2005 |
You're welcome, and thank YOU, Bill and Dave. Doing some more fiddling with my other (non-Alembic) basses, I'm finding that I need to use channel 2 in bandpass or hipass mode. The others just don't have the high end clarity of the Alembic, but they're meatier in the midrange than the maple-necked Rogue, so it works out. Edwin, that's fascinating...I would love to read that interview. Any idea as to a source for it? | ||
| albrecht
Junior Username: albrecht Post Number: 33 Registered: 8-2005 |
hi & very nice to read your discussions on SFsettings - learned a lot & was inspired to experiment! I like to ad that players wanting to aquire "the phil-sound" would benefit from using german "PYRAMID"-flat-wounds. they worked marvels on my epic as well as on my DARK-STAR-equiped DeArmond. using the f1x+sf2 on any all-tube-amp will bring a very nice "phil-sound". | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 874 Registered: 7-2003 |
I've never tried Pyramids, but have considered trying them. I have heard they go dead quickly. Has that been your experience? Also, what is the texture, feel and guage of the Pyramids? Slinky and thinner, like TI Jazz Flats? or different? | ||
| tom_z
Advanced Member Username: tom_z Post Number: 345 Registered: 7-2004 |
Bill - I can't speak about Pyramid bass strings but I use Pyramid guitar strings and they last longer than any other guitar strings I've used. I order them here - but they seem to be temporarily out of stock on bass strings just now. Tom | ||
| albrecht
Junior Username: albrecht Post Number: 34 Registered: 8-2005 |
hi there/ Me living in europe have no problem obtaining Pyramids - Iīve also been in contact with owner. They are VERY eager to please and give exellent service. Like if you wish for something special, being a small company theyīll fix it for you. Playing on their strings was revelation - supersmooth! havenīt noticed that they age quickly! got the idea to try them from an article that said Phil and Jack used them in the ī70s..... | ||
| cosmic
Member Username: cosmic Post Number: 54 Registered: 5-2005 |
I read the same thing about Phil. Pretty much the only "effects" Phil used was a Pluto Pedal bandpass filter and the filters on the Alembic and Alembicized basses. Now he just relies on a Modulus through an Eden head driving 2 Meyers sound 12's and two Meyer sound 2-18's. (Message edited by cosmic on April 09, 2006) | ||
| glocke
Intermediate Member Username: glocke Post Number: 116 Registered: 9-2002 |
actually he also (as of this recent tour at least)..uses bass pod xt pro...at least he has one in his rack.... | ||
| cosmic
Member Username: cosmic Post Number: 56 Registered: 5-2005 |
Really? I musty have missed that one. I've looked at thoose pods in the past but never pulled the trigger. Have yet to figure out what I used one for I guess! | ||
| spose
Intermediate Member Username: spose Post Number: 102 Registered: 5-2002 |
I'm a big fan of the 70's era Dead..I've been striving for Phil's tone from the 70's for some time now. I use a 1976 Series bass strung with flats and a F2B. It works pretty well for me. | ||
| albrecht
Junior Username: albrecht Post Number: 48 Registered: 8-2005 |
the PODtip was interesting - tried one bassPODxtPRO and it was very nice! some simulations esp. when cabs are added were very authentic and "musical"...you can find some PHILtones there, too! | ||
| jseitang
Intermediate Member Username: jseitang Post Number: 152 Registered: 6-2002 |
add a sf2 and youre pretty much in the there if not in the zone! | ||
| naxalez
New Username: naxalez Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2005 |
can anyone tell me what is phil tone? i don't get it! i feel that i'm very new one of the bass player when reading these comment (Message edited by davehouck on May 10, 2006) | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 1882 Registered: 9-2003 |
They're all referring to Phil Lesh of the Grateful Dead (et al) and his prodigious bass sound (i.e., 70's-era specifically). He's one of the first to use an Alembic-modded Guild Starfire 4-str. acoustic/electric bass and one of the original commisioners of a custom Alembic (ie., the "Osage Orange Bass" featured in "The Grateful Dead Movie). He's also probably the first bassist to use a truly "hi-fi" amp rig (as did the rest of the Dead). If you haven't heard him play, and I'm assuming you haven't, and you're a fan of innovative bass playing, then you owe it to yourself to ck Phil out. He's currently touring with Phil Lesh And Friends. | ||
| albrecht
Junior Username: albrecht Post Number: 49 Registered: 8-2005 |
i suggest staring off with Dicks Picks 35 - my favourite! there are some awesome bass-sounds on this album! offcourse "the philsound" isnīt something static - every fan has his/her own preferences...and yes, itīs not only how they sound, the notes, but what he actually plays thatīs important and defines PL as one of the most & truely innovative bass in history... | ||
| jseitang
Intermediate Member Username: jseitang Post Number: 155 Registered: 6-2002 |
naxalez- start off with live/dead, and if you like, try american beauty and workingman's dead. | ||
| spose
Intermediate Member Username: spose Post Number: 110 Registered: 5-2002 |
Mars Hotel unbroken chain | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3802 Registered: 5-2002 |
Mars Hotel unbroken chain | ||
| edwin
Intermediate Member Username: edwin Post Number: 148 Registered: 5-2002 |
Blair Jackson who not only has written extensively about the Dead but is also a long time writer for Mix magazine, is working on a book about the Dead's gear. He's interviewed just about everyone and it should (like all of his writing) be a great read. Edwin Ps I like just about all the Phil tones. There were some clanky Modulus ones for a while I wasn't so into, but the biggest complaint I have for many years (especially the late 70s) was that he was kept way too low in the mix. | ||
| albrecht
Member Username: albrecht Post Number: 51 Registered: 8-2005 |
thatīs exellent news - really looking forward to read such a book! keep us informed on progress, please! | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 1887 Registered: 9-2003 |
It's all good! | ||
| jimbobv
Junior Username: jimbobv Post Number: 35 Registered: 4-2003 |
The F1X and SF2 settings look interesting, I usually have the MID dialed way low. I'll try these settings out with my clanky Modulus - (love that term!) that has the Alembic P'ups. | ||
| crgaston
Advanced Member Username: crgaston Post Number: 203 Registered: 11-2005 |
Do it, Jim! The mids are flat at 10, so you can really hear the toothy, growly, butt-kickin' BITE that I'm sure your bass is putting out. Modulus with Alembic electronics? Man that is just sweet! | ||
| s_wood
Advanced Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 206 Registered: 5-2002 |
This is hugely important to know about the F1-X. The mid is a "cut only" passive control, so at anything less than 10 you are cutting mids. Also, the flat position for both the bass and treble controls is around 2 or 3. If you set the 3 EQs at what you might intuitively think is flat at 5-5-5, you will actually be setting up the classic slapper's "smiley face" EQ, with hugely boosted lows and highs and scooped out mids. |
