| Author | Message | ||
| ghunter
New Username: ghunter Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2006 |
Around ten years ago I played someone else's Wal Walnut Mach 1 before a gig and fell in love with both the feel and the tone. Earlier this year I thought that I might look into buying one but it seems that the prices are skyrocketing (poor timing on my part, to say the least). An '86 Mach I just sold for North of $4000 on ebay this week! A friend here in Seattle suggested that instead of waiting a year or more to find the "right" Wal I look at Alembic. I like this idea a lot, also because support for Alembic seems very solid whereas it's tough to get a hold of Pete (Wal's a one man shop) even if you're a dealer who wants to give him tens of thousands of pounds for new instruments, let alone an owner who needs a spare part! I've been reading a lot of posts on these forums and am still trying to digest the MASSIVE amount of information here. Hence, I'm hoping that I can get some quick guidance to point me in the right direction. A bit of background on me... I've always been a StingRay guy and am happy with the multiple Music Man basses I own, including the very versatile 5-string HH I bought a few weeks ago. I'm currently using a Super Redhead, but this is getting swapped out for an Eden WT-400 + cab TBD (prob Bergantino HT112). I also have some Trace Elliot pieces in the garage that I may re-assemble into a working SMX rig. My style is 50% finger/dub and 50% pick/aggressive, either of which mixes in well with a very busy drummer depending on his mood (hehehe). I've seen some gorgeously sleek Europas and Elans that have made my jaw drop, and that's the modern style I'd like to stick with even though the "classic" Alembic is beautiful in its own way. However, do these models have the deep tones and flexibility that will make me forget about the Wal? What other options in the Alembic line should I consider? Series I/II are more than I want to spend, as $2000-$3000 is my rough budget for a 5 or 6 string model. Thanks! Graham | ||
| keavin
Senior Member Username: keavin Post Number: 818 Registered: 12-2002 |
Europa & Rogue basses or the Excel Models are the "Deep Tone monsters" aside from the series basses!............also too keep your eyes on ebay for a Series Model they pop up often! (Message edited by keavin on May 26, 2006) (Message edited by keavin on May 26, 2006) | ||
| lowlife
Advanced Member Username: lowlife Post Number: 225 Registered: 12-2003 |
I own 2 different 5-string Excels and I play them through David Eden amps & cabs. I am completly satisfied with the "deep" end. IMHO, if you are able to try a few out, your ears will be the best judge of all. Good luck on your tone quest. Ellery (Lowlife) (Message edited by lowlife on May 26, 2006) | ||
| ghunter
New Username: ghunter Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2006 |
Europa, Rogue, and Excel are what I'm on the lookout for now, then. You didn't mention the Elan - how do they sound? I'm going to continue to try and play as many Alembics as I can from here on. There was a just-arrived Series I fretless at Bass Northwest last time I was there and played beautifully but the $5000 price tag would be enough to incite a divorce when I returned home! I've never played an instrument that felt so effortless, so I knew that I shouldn't even plug it in or else I really would want to take it home. | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1175 Registered: 3-2004 |
I would focus on the woods more than the model. To me, deep tone means purpleheart or heavier stringers in the neck, or at least a bunch of non-maple. It also means mahogany or vermillion body cores. The Elan has a maple body, so it will have a brighter tone than most other Alembics. Of course, all of this averages out somewhat from instrument to instrument. Not all pieces of maple sound exactly the same. | ||
| jseitang
Intermediate Member Username: jseitang Post Number: 156 Registered: 6-2002 |
hey also consider the difference between solid body and semi hollow. that will, along with the electronics you decide, will give you that deep tone you're looking for. | ||
| ghunter
New Username: ghunter Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2006 |
Semi-hollow was never a consideration, to be honest with you. I have a semi-hollow body Guild Starfire IV guitar and I wouldn't call that a deep tone (crisp and sharp, maybe). "along with the electronics you decide" If I had the budget, I would order a brand new custom model in a heartbeat. I don't think I'll have the luxury of "choosing" electronics so much as them choosing me  Any dos/don'ts to suggest for Alembic electronics with great low end? | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 442 Registered: 6-2002 |
I have both a SC DLX 4 and an Europa5. Both have incredible low end power and clarity. I would say the SC has a more mellow rounder deep tone than the Europa and I've done some reggae with the SC and the bottom end is so solid. I use a Mesa boogie valve head with 2x10 and 1x15 power house cabs which give me a great sound. If the bass isn't deep enough for you, then maybe you could look at getting an SF-2 as well when you get your alembic. Then you will have no Deep End problems. Jazzyvee. | ||
| jseitang
Intermediate Member Username: jseitang Post Number: 157 Registered: 6-2002 |
semi hollow with an sf2 can make your bass sound pretty deep. | ||
| s_wood
Advanced Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 211 Registered: 5-2002 |
Graham: I own a few Alembics, and I've played lots of them over the years. I also own a Wal Mach III, and I can tell you that the low end of most Alembics is at least equal to the low end of my Wal, and is probably better, to my subjective ears. A couple of observations: generally speaking, all things being equal a neck through bass will produce noticably more sustain than a bass with a bolt-on neck. The increase in sustain will often manifest itself as an increase in the first fundamental of each note, or what we call low end. All Alembics except Orions and Excels are neck-throughs. Wals are bolt-ons, like your beloved Stingrays. Don't get me wrong: bolt-ons produce a very pleasing tone that lots of musicians really love, but I don't think that you can say that those basses are stronger in their low frequency response when compared to neck through instruments. I think that when people say that Alembics are lacking low end response what they are really mean is that Alembic electronics are capable of producing more high end than they are used to hearing. Alembic electronics produce a very flat frequency response way up to about 6khz, and there are very few basses that can do that. So, when people say that a XXX bass has a strong low end what they really mean is that the highs are missing, which accentuates what is left. It you want to produce that tone with an Alembic, all you need to do is roll off some of the high end with the filters. But, as Greg Allman once said, you can't lose what you never had, and if the high end isn't there in the first place you can't roll it off. Alembic's whole design philosophy is to let the player make tonal decisions as opposed to forcing them upon him or her. As others have said, if you are really into a sound with less high end you would probably prefer an Alembic with a mahagony, walnut or cherry core. Steer clear of maple. If you can afford it, adding ebony neck laminates to a maple neck will give you more low end than is legal in some states. The top wood makes some difference as well, but as long as you stay away from flame maple you will be fine. Last point: I really hate to say bad things about people as life is far too short for that, but the truth is the truth: Wal's customer service is horrible. I mean the WORST. Basically, there is no customer service. The neck on my Mark III bowed terribly after about 6 months, probably because the wood wasn't properly dried. Hey, it happens. However, this should never happen: it took me 18 months to get a new neck for the bass. It took me 6 months to contact Pete. I must have left him 20 phone messages (and I live in the US!) without a return call. Finally, and in desperation, I complained about the whole sad story on a Wal forum, and some kind soul in England actually went to the Wal shop and told Pete to call me back. At his direction I sent him the neck from my bass, and he didn't send me a new one for a year. Caveat emptor. (Message edited by s_wood on May 27, 2006) | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3870 Registered: 5-2002 |
I agree with Steve and Bob; if you're going for "deep tones" I believe it is the case that, when looking at Alembics, it's not so much the models or even the electronics as it is the woods and the neck. And if you want "flexibility" then you're looking at electronics packages. Given what you said in your post about liking the "modern" body styles, I would suggest watching for a Europa or Rogue. You'll want one with a Mahogany body, as most do. You'll also want one with Purplehart neck laminates which many have, and probably something like a Walnut top. Ebony neck laminates would be even better, but you're probably not going to run across one with Ebony neck lams in the used market. But the Mahogany body, Purpleheart neck lams and Walnut top would probably give you the "deep lows" you're looking for in a used bass; and the Europa electronics will give you the "flexibility". But I'm just speculating about the relative aspects of Alembics, and it's hard to really know from a few typed words what kind of tone someone else is actually looking for. Given your background in MusicMan basses, for all I know an Excel might be right up your alley; and it would be much less expensive than a Europa or Rogue. Depending on your rig and how you set it up, you can get a good low end out of an all Maple Alembic. So if you run across a Maple Elan in a music store, plug it in and play it. (Technical correction to Steve's post. What Steve probably meant to type was that "all Alembics except Orions, Excels and Epics are neck-throughs".) | ||
| ghunter
New Username: ghunter Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2006 |
Thanks to all for this great information. I'm starting to see multiple Alembics in my future I've found two basses so far: - A 4 with mahogany body, cocobolo top, purpleheart in neck - A 5 with mahogany body, koa top, ebony board Would anyone care to comment on the "suitability" of an Essence for my purposes, or perhaps even estimate how much one is worth? I'm starting an Excel workbook to track prices, too. | ||
| pmoran
Intermediate Member Username: pmoran Post Number: 146 Registered: 12-2004 |
hi, graham. i am far from an expert on alembics, but i know basses and i know low end. i'm not the technical genius many of the guys on this site are, but i'm into metal and hard rock, which many here are not into. i'm always looking for that "judas priest live/move your innards around/make the sleeves of your tshirt blow back" kind of low end. i've been able to accomplish that w/my 5100 watts of trace elliot heads and my bag end 18" infra cabs coupled w/my bag end ELF M2 integrator. i like low end. IMHO, you are not going to accomplish that low end goal w/a non-neckthru alembic. not even w/a non-neck thru 5 string alembic. as others here have suggested, you should seek out a used europa, rogue, signature or series. you can find a used europa for a little below or above $2500 and i believe that would do the job. there are some series available for a little more but they usually need some upgrades to the electronics. keep looking and don't jump at the first alembic you find, especially if it's not a neckthru. if you're looking for something more in the $1000-$1800 range, i believe a used persuader could do you fine. i've owned several and w/the right rig, you can create thunder. | ||
| pmoran
Intermediate Member Username: pmoran Post Number: 147 Registered: 12-2004 |
hi, graham. i am far from an expert on alembics, but i know basses and i know low end. i'm not the technical genius many of the guys on this site are, but i'm into metal and hard rock, which many here are not into. i'm always looking for that "judas priest live/move your innards around/make the sleeves of your tshirt blow back" kind of low end. i've been able to accomplish that w/my 5100 watts of trace elliot heads and my bag end 18" infra cabs coupled w/my bag end ELF M2 integrator. i like low end. IMHO, you are not going to accomplish that low end goal w/a non-neckthru alembic. not even w/a non-neckthru 5 string alembic. as others here have suggested, you should seek out a used europa, rogue, signature or series. you can find a used europa for a little below or above $2500 and i believe that would do the job. there are some series available for a little more but they usually need some upgrades to the electronics. keep looking and don't jump at the first alembic you find, especially if it's not a neckthru. if you're looking for something more in the $1000-$1800 range, i believe a used persuader could do you fine. i've owned several and w/the right rig, you can create thunder. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3883 Registered: 5-2002 |
Pat; I'm curious. How much power are you actually pushing through each of your infra cabs? They're rated at 400 watts. | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 449 Registered: 2-2005 |
I play both set neck and neck through. The biggest difference I have noticed is the sustain. I will say that my fretless Orion with EMW electronics actually gets bassier than my Brown Bass due to the bass and treble tone controls. As I recall missing member Danno uses Excel's in his band Doomtree which is very dark music. You are lucky as you are close to Bass Northwest who is a stocking dealer. The best suggestion I can make is try out as many basses as you can. Keith | ||
| pmoran
Intermediate Member Username: pmoran Post Number: 150 Registered: 12-2004 |
actually, my S18E-D's are rated at 400 apiece. my S-18B-D's are rated at 300 watts apiece. my S15X-D's are rated at 200 watts apiece. my trace elliot 1048H is rated at 800 watts. my peavey 18" sub is rated at 800 watts. my behringer 18" sub is rated at 800 watts. my 3 trace heads total 5100 wattsk peak, and i can't get them above 3. so, no need for "11". at 3, my clothes are almost blowing back. at 5, they are blowing back, but i can't stand the pressure i feel in my jaw. that's where it seems to be the worst. i feel a sensation of pressure in my lower jaw and the lower portion of my skull when i start cranking this stuff. then, there are the 2 behringer europower 1500 amps i use to power my ipod, which i use as my practice music source. i think i'm beginning to understand the threat of radiation involved in having this much crap in a small room. | ||
| ghunter
New Username: ghunter Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2006 |
"wow" and "amazing" just don't seem appropriate after reading that description of 3 and 5! I bow to you, o master of low frequencies. If all goes well, a Rogue 5 should be making its way to me this week. | ||
| jacko
Senior Member Username: jacko Post Number: 654 Registered: 10-2002 |
Congratulations Graham and welcome to the club. You can't really go wrong with any Alembic model I have a rogue and an Epic and they both go really 'deep'. I think you'll find the sustain on your rogue will be incredible., especially if it has purpleheart neck laminates. The other good thing about the rogue is that it has a couple of 'quick change' switches that boost or cut the lows and mids 6db either way. It has the famous 'Q' filter aswell and that will take a while for you to figure out what it does. Before anyone else says it, we want pictures as soon as it arrives;-) Graeme (Message edited by jacko on May 30, 2006) | ||
| ghunter
New Username: ghunter Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2006 |
Unfortunately, this Rogue doesn't have purpleheart laminates. It does have the Europa electronics package and an ebony fretboard, though. Pics will be posted as soon as I get it! Well, as soon as I get it and play it for a while (Message edited by ghunter on May 30, 2006) | ||
| ghunter
New Username: ghunter Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2006 |
Sigh - I just got some detailed pics of the Rogue and it's really in Good/Very Good condition, not Excellent. There's more finish wear than I thought, and some pretty deep dings. I know Alembic can fix all that, but I'm not going to spend $2000 on an instrument that needs $1000+ to bring it up to excellent condition. Still looking, but positive this is the right direction for me. (Sorry for turning this thread into a soap opera) | ||
| ghunter
New Username: ghunter Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2006 |
Sigh - I just got some detailed pics of the Rogue and it's really in Good/Very Good condition, not Excellent. There's more finish wear than I thought, and some pretty deep dings. I know Alembic can fix all that, but I'm not going to spend $2000 on an instrument that needs $1000+ to bring it up to excellent condition. Still looking, but positive this is the right direction for me. (Sorry for turning this thread into a soap opera) | ||
| pmoran
Intermediate Member Username: pmoran Post Number: 151 Registered: 12-2004 |
congrat's graham. you're going to love your rogue. although i like the heavy stuff, i also love mellow stuff. surf the web for fleetwood mac or john mcvie. see if you recognize anything he's playing! look familiar? if you find the right pics, you now own one! | ||
| ghunter
New Username: ghunter Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2006 |
Oops - sorry for not being more explicit. I did not buy the Rogue after I saw closeup pics. | ||
| pmoran
Intermediate Member Username: pmoran Post Number: 153 Registered: 12-2004 |
my fault, graham. when i read the part about emailing pics when you get it, i thought you'd bought it and it was already on the way. rogues are great basses. a blemish here or there doesn't affect the sound. good luck in your hunt. i still think you could find a spoiler or persuader for a reasonable price that you would love. i've owned several of each and they're neckthru and absolutely capable of imparting a good lowend. | ||
| ghunter
Junior Username: ghunter Post Number: 11 Registered: 5-2006 |
Thanks for the kind & wise words throughout this thread. With this one it was a combination of it being priced too high given the condition, and my wanting an instrument in a little more "collectible" shape. If it was going to see very heavy use this one was a winner (at a price a few hundred less). Still looking for a nice Rogue or Europa, Graham | ||
| keavin
Senior Member Username: keavin Post Number: 829 Registered: 12-2002 |
Did somebody say john mcvie???   | ||
| bassdr
Member Username: bassdr Post Number: 80 Registered: 10-2004 |
Don't ignore the Essence models- very light and comfortable to play, I get great bottom end with my F-1X, Mackie 1400 in bridged mode through my Eminence Omega Pro 15" in a custom folded/ ported horn cab and 2 10" ducted cab. EBS Octabass pedal helps too! Michael | ||
| pmoran
Intermediate Member Username: pmoran Post Number: 158 Registered: 12-2004 |
hey, keavin. nice pic of mcvie, but what i was telling graham about is the rogue or europa he was playing on their last tour dvd......the one where the usc band comes on at the end of the show. also, there's a webpage that indicates jason newsted used to record much of his stuff w/metallica w/some europas equipped w/series electronics. but those are great vintage shots of mcvie! | ||
| keurosix
Junior Username: keurosix Post Number: 42 Registered: 10-2005 |
Graham, I think you would do great for "Dark" & "Deep" with ANY Alembic, however, the Europa and Rogue model electronics have the quick change switches, and the bass boost is incredible! It's a 3 position switch, and at the boost +6db, an 18" sub really rattles the walls! For ultimate deep bass: Neck-thru, ebony neck laminates, & 35" scale length or longer. But alas, you won't find these options on the second hand market - maybe once in a blue moon, and not cheap EVER! Try to find a rogue or Europa with model electronics, and 18" boxes for best boom! Kris. | ||
| play4zero
New Username: play4zero Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2003 |
I run my 90 Elan strung with DR Lo Riders through my Edens with the EQ set flat and it's quite meaty.  | ||
| play4zero
New Username: play4zero Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2003 |
Oops, sorry, the reason for the picture was to show the lack of "dark" woods. | ||
| ghunter
Junior Username: ghunter Post Number: 22 Registered: 5-2006 |
I played a Rogue 5 with no neck laminates at Bass Northwest last week. Wow, it's made me completely forget about the Wal. Deep, rich tone that goes on for miles and miles, and that's even without the electronics coming into play. This is DEFINITELY the way I'm going, but alas this Rogue was spalted maple and I greatly prefer the darker top woods (call me traditional) I think I've tracked down a NOS Rogue 6-string! It's more than I wanted to spend, but I don't think I'll ever find a new Rogue six again for this price. No neck laminates, but a beautiful top wood. I've been looking hard for one of these for four months and haven't seen one on the used market with neck laminates, and never another 6. | ||
| 2400wattman
Intermediate Member Username: 2400wattman Post Number: 200 Registered: 11-2005 |
snag it quick before someonelse does. Justify the cost by your needs and the availability of such an instrument, especially if you can't afford a custom job. That's what I tell my wife evrytime UPS or FED-EX shows up at the house. Whooooo! | ||
| elzie
Advanced Member Username: elzie Post Number: 388 Registered: 8-2002 |
I have to put my $.02 in here. While my Excel has great tone, my Epic has a much deeper and more powerful tone. I was never too crazy about the looks of the Epics, but after I bought one my Excel is relegated to backup ;) Paul TGO |
