| Author | Message | ||
| 2400wattman
Advanced Member Username: 2400wattman Post Number: 254 Registered: 11-2005 |
O.k., I put some thought into this for us non-filter Alembic owners. Instead of a seperate switch and filter knob to replace the bass and treble knobs, how about having them both on a concentric pot with the top half being the "q" switch(with three detented points for the flat and boost points) and the lower half for the filter. This would also make it to where two filters could be installed on Epics & Orions or maybe leave either treble or bass controls with the filter. Come on guys, let's see if we can get them to bust this out!! | ||
| keurosix
Intermediate Member Username: keurosix Post Number: 101 Registered: 10-2005 |
I've thought of the concentric knob idea for the filter too, only you beat me to the post! I think it's a fantastic idea and would be cleaner looking even for Series electronics too. Where a nice wood top would not want to be riddled with knobs? I think a CVQ top without detents might be an easier pot to manufacture though. | ||
| lidon2001
Advanced Member Username: lidon2001 Post Number: 229 Registered: 4-2005 |
Mica mentions in this post that Alembic does not use concentric pots. http://alembic.com/club/messages/402/26670.html T | ||
| 2400wattman
Advanced Member Username: 2400wattman Post Number: 256 Registered: 11-2005 |
Mica, would you care to comment on the possibility of this? | ||
| 0vid
Junior Username: 0vid Post Number: 42 Registered: 4-2003 |
I would like to ask of those who swapped the B/T eq for the filter. My Epic is a bit honky with the bridge pickup soloed, i.e. has a strong low mid nasal bark, the sort of tonal diff. you'd get from humbucking coils in series, as opposed to S/Coil or humbucking in parallel.. Works for many situations for me, but also doesn't work for me in other situations. Would the filter help in removing the low mid bark to approximate a cleaner more single coil type tone... | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 1095 Registered: 6-2002 |
Try adjusting the p/u height to find a better sound ... ... but BEFORE you do, check the FAQ section. The p/u mounting on Alembics is different from just about all other builders, so you might damage the p/u if you don't know what you're doing. On an MXY p/u (normally found on Epics) there are four screws, with two sticking up from out of the holes, and two which are holding up the p/u from beneath the opposite holes. The p/u is held firmly by those four screws: there is no foam padding, there are no springs. Loosen the two screws that you can see, then adjust the two screws beneath, which you can reach with a small screwdriver through the hole. Never over-tighten the screws - just make them snug so there are no rattles. ... One limitation of the Epic electronics package is that you probably have to adjust the height for the other p/u as well, because you have only a single level pot inside the control cavity. Starting from the Europa/Rogue package, there is a level pot for each p/u so you can adjust the p/u height and compensate without having to touch the other p/u. | ||
| keurosix
Intermediate Member Username: keurosix Post Number: 106 Registered: 10-2005 |
Ray, I would have to say "yes", because the filter causes a more active global change in the sound than the bass and treble controls do. By adjusting the filter you set the threshold of the low-pass and can selectively remove upper frequencies. By sweeping the filter knob, you should be able to minimize the mid frequencies and enhance either a broader range (top-end - killer slap tone) or narrower range (bottom-end - Reggae Dub sound). Depending on the position of the Q switch, this can be a subtle or profound effect. Of course the primary reason to replace the B & T controls with the AE-2 filter & Q is to do the opposite: To get the trademark Alembic sound which can exaggerate a peaky resonance, usually in the mid-range. The best news is that if you don't like the filter mod after you change it, you can always go back to the B & T controls. There are a lot of Alembic Clubbers who would be happy to buy the filter kit from you, or keep the kit with the bass for a higher resale value? Epics with the set-neck really have a pronounced mid-range. It's a really warm sounding guitar. Hard to make it "not warm". I love my fretless Epic. It really works there. Perhaps you could try a cleaner pre-amp or solid state bass amp to get the sound shaping you want. Kris | ||
| oujeebass
Member Username: oujeebass Post Number: 82 Registered: 10-2002 |
As an Epic owner, those two knobs are more powerful than you would think. Vary your picking/plucking position slightly and things happen. With tiny adjustments in Blend/Bass/Treble can span an impressive spectrum. Plus recall is not as much a problem. | ||
| 0vid
Junior Username: 0vid Post Number: 43 Registered: 4-2003 |
Kris Thanks for that, I'll give it a go. Sounds like what I need... | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 1101 Registered: 6-2002 |
If money is no object, sure - spend money. But I'd give adjusting pickup height a try first. As you're used to the BT controls, you'll find the low-pass filter is a different animal altogether - will take some getting used to. | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1061 Registered: 9-2002 |
I don't like concentric pots, as you lose two controls if only one goes bad. Plus, Series axes are not very thick, so you might have depth problems. Plus, I'm occasionally clumsy enough I don't need the pots sticking out any higher ! My 2 cents: I prefer the filters to B+T. I'm very traditional/old school Alembic. I would not prefer to trade the ultimate clean sound for a bass or treble boost/cut that's available in spades on most amps these days. J o e y | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 4469 Registered: 5-2002 |
Adam; I think the thread that Tom referenced pretty much addresses the question. Alembic's standard pots are high quality sealed self-cleaning mil-spec pots. My guess is that part of the relatively high cost of Alembic electronics are the pots they use. Mica states that the only concentric pots they ever used were hand-made by Ron. So my guess is that off the shelf concentric pots probably do not meet Alembic specs. Anyone who's ever had a special order electronics job from Alembic can imagine how much the cost and time involved for those pots were. It is my impression that Ron's bench time is a bit of a precious commodity and that wait times can be a bit long for a one-off project. So my guess is that it might be tough to talk them into such a project given the projects that are already in line for Ron's bench, and that the cost and wait time would not be small. But I'm just guessing. | ||
| pace
Advanced Member Username: pace Post Number: 267 Registered: 4-2004 |
FWIW, I swapped out the B/T +/- and 3-way selector electronics on my Orion Baritone for a Pan, Filter +Q~ I've never looked back.... That one simple upgrade opened up the instrument's spectrum tenfold. IMO, the LP filter is an essential part of the Alembic equation. Bass & Treble cuts & boosts are great in addition to (EMW, Europa/Rouge), but never a substitute for 'em. So yeah, the concentric pots might not be feasible, but if you're like me and almost always have your Q switch on, perhaps Ron can fabricate a Filter w/ your favored +db notch hardwired?!!? | ||
| 2400wattman
Advanced Member Username: 2400wattman Post Number: 257 Registered: 11-2005 |
Thanks Dave | ||
| lg71
Intermediate Member Username: lg71 Post Number: 177 Registered: 3-2006 |
2400wattman, go for it you won't look back... Meanwhile, I'll be happy to have your old B/T +/- if you won't use it, I won't mind extra holes on my bass, a filter is fantastic, but for a "control freak" like me it's not enough... "more" is definitely NOT "less"! | ||
| keurosix
Intermediate Member Username: keurosix Post Number: 109 Registered: 10-2005 |
OK LG, I'll bite: How would you hook up the filter with the B&T circuit to make an EMW set? I know a few more holes need to be drilled, but do the circuit boards connect up in tandum, or is their a need for a special harness? Kris | ||
| lg71
Intermediate Member Username: lg71 Post Number: 178 Registered: 3-2006 |
keurosix, good question! I was just going to amend and ask that... Does anyone know if we can simply/easily "insert" the B/T +/- switch(es) easily? and what frequency and by how much does it boost and cut? Of course, the treble might not do anything when the Filter cuts below its point. But the Bass + might/should ad more bass at all time, if it's set below 350Hz (most likely), this can/should be good. | ||
| the_8_string_king
Intermediate Member Username: the_8_string_king Post Number: 199 Registered: 9-2005 |
My custom 8-string Europa has both a filter and variable Q AND bass, mid, and treble controls -for each pickup. While having both eq and filter controls is the ultimate (except for having a built-in SUPERFILTER AND EQ controls -or a synthesizer), I agree that the LP filter & Q are much more versatile; they have a broader and more... fundamental type of effect on the sound. Eq controls are great, but they just make you have more or less bass, treble, and/or (if applicable) mid. The the LP filter and Q let you sound like you have 10 different basses, or 12, or whatever. This is why Distillates, and the Europa and Rogues have my favorite stock electronics. They're the best of both worlds. Taking it step further by upgrading the bass & treble controls to variable dials -like the EMW setup- is even better. Also, getting a variable Q is great. After having the Q setup I have, which has 2 toggles for each pickup that let me adjust the Q 0/4/8/12 dbs, I'd need to have at least a 3-position Q. The 4db setting between the 0 & 8 is VERY useful, a more mellow setting that very noticably adjusts the Q. I don't use the 12 db setting too much, nor do I turn the Q off much. Yeah, having the LP filter & Q is MUCH more versatile than the EQ controls; but having both is incredible. My next bass is going to have Europa controls plus a mid-range switch and a 3 or 4-position Q, hopefully 0/3/6/9 dbs. I hope you can add/retrofit the controls to your bass with little/no difficulty. I'll look forward to hearing the results! | ||
| lg71
Intermediate Member Username: lg71 Post Number: 179 Registered: 3-2006 |
The_8_string_king, thanks a lot for your comments, I am very interested, but also a little confused with your explanation, you say you have 2 positions Q-switches and get 0/4/8/12 dbs out of it, can you clarify please? I am glad to know that the treble, mid and bass switches work fine with the Filter + Q-switch, I didn't know there was a mid one, that's great. Would you know the values (Frequency/db)? Also you are saying that there are 4 positions Q-Switches, that's interesting too, I didn't know... I wasn't given many options when I ordered mine. Well, I really like the idea of boosting/cutting, Bass, Mid and highs as well as using the Filter + Q-switch. Further, I think it would great to have a sweep-able frequency using a pot, as opposed to three different switches for bass/mid/high (although that would only give one chosen frequency to play with, which I'd favor anyway, over fixed multiple frequencies, as used on switches) , I guess we could have a pot and a switch. This idea of a pot would be a bit like having a CVQ as opposed to Q-switches. Thanks, LG | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1365 Registered: 3-2004 |
Mark- I suppose that's why they do 0/+6/+9 on the stock Series I electronics. LG- I would guess that Mark has one switch that is 0/+4 and another that is 0/+8. If the switches are additive, you can get 0/+4/+8/+12 depending on how they are set. | ||
| lg71
Intermediate Member Username: lg71 Post Number: 180 Registered: 3-2006 |
Bsee, thanks for your reply. That's very interesting, I fink that it would be great to have a section on the FAQ dedicated to this sort of "techie" stuff, with more in detail specs. I still don't know what the bass/mid/high switches do and were, in terms of frequencies/db... Then I just saw in a brochure that they also do the treble and bass pots. That's a new one I am learning, 2 Q-switches in series! Any photos or diagrams out there? I though of trying two Low-pass filters in series... obviously, it would mainly make a difference while used in conjunction with the Q-switch(es) I still think that the NEXT BEST thing would be a notch/peak filter (sweep-able with a pot), and two available options for cut/boost; a preset Q-switch (-/0/+) or with recycling an "altered/tweaked" Pan pot, to cut/0db/boost, maybe -/+15db and 40Hz to 8Khz. | ||
| the_8_string_king
Intermediate Member Username: the_8_string_king Post Number: 200 Registered: 9-2005 |
Each pickup has 2 3 position switches that work with the filter. On is what I call, "the control switch." It chooses between 3 options: filter off/filter on (no Q)/filter on (4/8/12 db, depending on the position of the other 3 position Q switch. This setup works really well. Although I've found that I rarely actually use the control to turn the filter off (which just means it sounds maximum brightness regardless of what position the filter is in, and the filter doesn't affect the sound while it's turned off.) If I did it again, I'd probably have 1 switch be 0/X/12 dbs of Q, with a second 3-position switch deciding between 3/6/9 for the other switches middle position. But yeah, when I got my custom, they told me I could use the 4-position switchs they use on the series basses for Q functions (or about anything). I do seem to recall they were more expensive than the 3 position switches. Being able to vary the Q from 0-12 in 4 db increments is close to perfect. For my next custom, I just thought of having a 4-position switch to adjust the Q from 3/6/9/12 db, and a 2-position off/on for the Q. Or maybe even a 3-position, where up and down are 0 & 15 dbs, and the middle position is 3/6/9/12 depending on the 4 position switch! But I'm not overly interested in the 15 db position. I find the 12 db setting is more than strong enough, and I don't use it that much. For my purposes, if I were to retain the 0 and 12 db options, but have 3 positions in-between (3/6/9 db) instead of 2 (4/8 dbs) this would be completely perfect!!! The mid switchs were custom for my bass. I don't know the value, but they're VERY useful. I had my bass for some time before I realized they actually apparently adjusted the range differently for each pickup. How thoughtful! I LOVE using the bridge one for boost, and I usually use the neck one for a cut, which really enhances the whole "smile" curve. If I had the $, I'd have a second mid-range switch (another 3-position toggle) that selects upper/middle/lower mid-range -to be cut or boosted. But the mid-switches are great; they interact with the Q in the mid-range very well, and add a lot of options to what you can do with the sound. | ||
| the_8_string_king
Advanced Member Username: the_8_string_king Post Number: 201 Registered: 9-2005 |
Each pickup has 2 3-position switches that work with the filter. One is what I call, "the control switch." It chooses between 3 options: filter off/filter on (no Q)/filter on (4/8/12 db, depending on the position of the other 3 position Q switch. This setup works really well. Although I've found that I rarely actually use the control to turn the filter off (which just means it sounds maximum brightness regardless of what position the filter is in, and the filter doesn't affect the sound while it's turned off.) If I did it again, I'd probably have 1 switch be 0/X/12 dbs of Q, with a second 3-position switch deciding between 3/6/9 for the other switches middle position. But yeah, when I got my custom, they told me I could use the 4-position switchs they use on the series basses for Q functions (or about anything). I do seem to recall they were more expensive than the 3 position switches. Being able to vary the Q from 0-12 in 4 db increments is close to perfect. For my next custom, I just thought of having a 4-position switch to adjust the Q from 3/6/9/12 db, and a 2-position off/on for the Q. Or maybe even a 3-position, where up and down are 0 & 15 dbs, and the middle position is 3/6/9/12 depending on the 4 position switch! But I'm not overly interested in the 15 db position. I find the 12 db setting is more than strong enough, and I don't use it that much. For my purposes, if I were to retain the 0 and 12 db options, but have 3 positions in-between (3/6/9 db) instead of 2 (4/8 dbs) this would be completely perfect!!! The mid switchs were custom for my bass. I don't know the value, but they're VERY useful. I had my bass for some time before I realized they actually apparently adjusted the range differently for each pickup. How thoughtful! I LOVE using the bridge one for boost, and I usually use the neck one for a cut, which really enhances the whole "smile" curve. If I had the $, I'd have a second mid-range switch (another 3-position toggle) that selects upper/middle/lower mid-range -to be cut or boosted. But the mid-switches are great; they interact with the Q in the mid-range very well, and add a lot of options to what you can do with the sound. | ||
| the_8_string_king
Advanced Member Username: the_8_string_king Post Number: 202 Registered: 9-2005 |
Oops! | ||
| lg71
Intermediate Member Username: lg71 Post Number: 183 Registered: 3-2006 |
The_8_string_king, I wished I was told that I could do stuff like that with the Q-switches, it's never to late anyway... Your post is very valuable to me, I am very grateful that you went in so much details. I love synthesizer and my favorite section is the Filter(s), before it used to be; Low pass filters and resonance (Q) and envelopes, but these days, they have taking this so far, that IT IS EXPECTED to see low pass, band pass, peaking, combing filters and so on... so once you start playing with a low pass Alembic filter, it makes you want to have a bit more control, which is understandable. My favorite tools are Dynamic processors (compressors, limiters/levellers, gates...) and Filters (fully parametric EQs, Low pass, band bass, notch and so on...) and I am very comfortable with them. I am NOT too crazy about Choruses, Flangers, Distortions and so on... although useful, they are plenty good ones out there and cheap, so not much of a challenge... I was offered to have a Filter bypass option on the first bass, I didn't go for it though, I though it would have been much more useful to have the filter frequency response extended the a point, where it could bypass itself, like a "full blown" low pass filter that you find on most modern DSP software EQs, they go like, 20Hz to 20KHz. So, is it really unusable when you bypass the filter? Because that gives me ideas, like it could work nicely with the treble and mid switches... I agree with you when you said that the MID switch is useful, I haven't heard it with my ears, but I can hear what it might sounds like with my inner ears. To me its a must I think, I really need/want that Aria SB "Mid" sounding flavor, it cuts through the mix so nicely, for the type of music I like. I am going to put an AD on the relevant section of this forum; looking for some bass/mid/treble switched or pots... - i want a MONSTER, like me ;) LOL ... so I am not alone! |
