| Author | Message | ||
| maclamb
Junior Username: maclamb Post Number: 15 Registered: 3-2006 |
For years I’ve played bass and enjoyed, liked and even admired (i.e. Casady’s) other bass tones. But I never really “hit on” that one sound/tone that was “mine” – the one I resonate with the most. Now that I have discovered it – am able to hear and recognize it instantly - the search is on to fine tune and play with the tone as much as possible. So, why am I writing? I have a few questions and, given that I have limited time., resources and funds, I am hoping your experience can help me answer some questions and validate my hypothesis and save me some time and money. First of all the sound is best described as a meaty wooden sound of a large “electrified” log being struck with another log or even a dull axe. A deep, “thunk” with various overtones, etc. I now realize I first noticed this sound on my Alembic Series 1 fretted bass. (Since sold ;-( But that was years ago and it didn’t occur to me then, even though I loved the sound, that it was “my” tone. If I had realized it then, I would have pursued a different course in equipment acquisition. (and would still have that bass!) I noticed it again yesterday when I set my bass (Ibanez SR1005EFM – 5 string through neck, mono rail bridge, 2 Bartolini pups with Vari-Mid III HQ 3-band eq and flat wound strings) to it’s ”factory” settings (all eq knobs at mid settings and no Mid EQ and turned the bridge pickup full. I am playing through an Ampeg SVT3 Pro (tube preamp, solid state amp). Wow. I just love that tone. Would I use it on every song? No. That is where other types of tones or even basses will come in. I like and admire other tones for other things, of course. But “my” tone is at the core. It gives me a starting point for all others. (at least in my mind, such as it is) As I played around I noticed: Increasing the low or highs on the bass eq “muddied” or sharpened the tone but did not eliminate it. Rolling the pup selector from Bridge to Neck pup did begin to eliminate the tone (see hypothesis, below). Adjusting the Mid EQ seemed to have most effect on the tone. Changing setting (low, mid, high) on the amp changed the shape of the tone, without eliminating it – as to be expected. So, my hypothesis. This I where you come in ;-) 1. This is a character of Neck-through basses – the “log” neck is the main factor – connected to the body/bridge. I have tried this with the other basses at my house: Ovation 4 string acoustic electric (set net), Fretless Jazz (bolt on neck), Hollow Body (set neck) and none have this specific tone. If this is true, is it a character of wood only? Or would an all composite bass (ala Steinberger, for example) have the same tone in it? 2. A tube preamp is required – not fully tested yet, but I don’t seem to get the tone with my GK solid state amp. Would a fully tube amp be better? (When I got this tone on my Alembic Series 1 I was playing through an SWR 500 – tube preamp/SS amp) 3. It is primarily a bridge pickup tone (wonder if a piezo bridge pickup would help or hinder) So, if my hypothesis is true, then I know what kind of basses and amps to look for. And, I can begin experimenting by changing one variable at a time (different pups, strings, amps, bridges would be first and are easy-er to test). Woods, finishes, neck composition/laminates layers, body shapes, finishes are more difficult, given limited time and resources. Ideally, I would in the future be able to go to a luthier and tell him exactly what to build – type of wood, shape, neck length and composition, electronics, etc. So my question is really this – if you understand what I am pointing to and asking – I am open to any and all help as I move down this path. Like any search – helpful hints to point me in the “right” direction will be greatly appreciated to concentrate focus and resources. I mean, of course, if I won the lottery I could start just buying every neck through bass and start testing, but that still takes time ;-) It would seem I don’t have to have a Series I/II. So, would any alembic neck through have this tone? Could I get by with a less expensive model? I am fortunate in that I live 15 miles South of their factory and so can drive up and try out basses and even describe the tone and see what they say. I plan to do this shortly ;-) What woods, neck composition, structure, length will be best? Best here is described as providing the “most’ tone and most control of the tone. There may or may not be an ”ideal” tone – or it is simply a facet of all neck through w/ bridge pup and then I can pretty much stick with what I have. Or will different combinations of bass structure and electronics produce different colors of tone – maybe pointing the search to that “ideal” perfect tone, if there is such a thing. Maybe it is not attainable in a real sense- merely an approximation (we’ll leave Plato and Kant out of this for now). I plan to go about this scientifically, - recording different blends and combinations and trying different basses as I can and then comparing. Not sure where this is leading, but if you can relate to my having found “my tone’ then you know the excitement. Thanks in advance – see you along the way ;-) | ||
| maclamb
Junior Username: maclamb Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2006 |
here's a sample of the tone - the vari-mid eq seems to be a major contributing factor. Would any neck-thru alembic achieve this tone - maybe requiring a Q switch? http://www.wakethemup.org/sound_samples.html | ||
| kimberly
Junior Username: kimberly Post Number: 47 Registered: 1-2007 |
Hi Maclamb.  Welcome to the club and best of luck with your project. I'm by no means an expert, as it seems most everyone else here is, but from what I heard of your sound clip you should have no trouble whatsoever attaining what you're looking for with an Alembic. I believe as well, while the variables of amps, speakers, personal style etc. impact the result of the tone, it's truly the instrument where the tone starts and 'lives' so to speak. As well were you to ask Alembic directly, I'm sure Mica or Susan and likely others who work there, could tell you specifically the wood and laminates/choices selections and electronics configurations/options you'd need to duplicate, or attain exactly what you're looking for with 'The Tone'. ;) The members of the board will also be able to give you their personal experience with the particulars of their instruments, unique characteristics and such, different woods, electronics configurations etc.. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Do your research, (which you are) and you won't be sorry. Matter of fact, I'll hazard a guess and say, you'll be very very happy with what you get. That's of course providing you get an Alembic. Bestest, Kimberly | ||
| maclamb
Junior Username: maclamb Post Number: 17 Registered: 3-2006 |
thanks Kimberly! I'm hoping to come in on the lower end - Rogues or Essence ;-) | ||
| kimberly
Junior Username: kimberly Post Number: 49 Registered: 1-2007 |
You're very welcome. I can relate and understand with the lower end aspect, as the price of admission is daunting no doubt. I went with a used '96 Epic a year ago February/March. I'll never go back. ;) Kimberly | ||
| maclamb
Junior Username: maclamb Post Number: 18 Registered: 3-2006 |
Can you get the kind of tone I have in my sample? | ||
| kimberly
Member Username: kimberly Post Number: 51 Registered: 1-2007 |
Hi Maclamb, I think this is something similar, or it seems like it. The circumstance was playing on a break at a gig at a tavern some friends of mine were playing at. It wasn't my amp, (an SWR head and SWR four 10 cab), and it was running through the PA that had a couple of 18 subs, with 15's and horns. As well, my Roland GS-6 effects device was new to me at the time and I just did a plug and play with minimal tweaking. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSQ7aHiZ_rc However, this isn't exactly representative of what I'd 'normally' sound like. My current rig, an Aguilar SC 500 2-12 cab when hooked up to my Eden 4-10 can kick it out pretty well with plenty of bottom and crunch. Unfortunately, the rest on my YouTube videos only 'show' the Aguilar without the Eden cab. If you like you can check them out also, as they do sound okay, though as I say they're 'different' from what it sounds you're looking for. Just do a search for 'bassplayerkimberly' on YouTube. Regards, Kimberly | ||
| maclamb
Junior Username: maclamb Post Number: 19 Registered: 3-2006 |
Wow - great solo - nice work. Is the Epic a bolt on? | ||
| kimberly
Member Username: kimberly Post Number: 53 Registered: 1-2007 |
Thank you. It's a set neck. http://www.alembic.com/prod/epic.html As I mentioned the price of admission is daunting, http://www.alembic.com/prod/prices.html But, you can find them for pretty reasonable prices used. Someone bought a lefty Epic yesterday on EBay for $1,000. And with a real big positive, when you have an Alembic, new or used, Alembic will treat you like family, because you are. Regards, Kimberly | ||
| maclamb
Junior Username: maclamb Post Number: 20 Registered: 3-2006 |
Thank you, but I think I'll pass so the epic - matter of fact all set neckss I've heard are missing an "organic" feel - to my ear ;-) - the feel of a real log of wood that I think is possible only with neck through. one person said it seemed to have an almost African feel to it in the upper registers. I wonder if that is the source of the Bass originally - natives banging on logs. Perhaps I am resonating/reminded with a very old memory. Who knows? Good story, though ;-) | ||
| maclamb
Junior Username: maclamb Post Number: 21 Registered: 3-2006 |
re: family - I know - I've been to them a couple times- Mica is real nice and they helped me prep and sell my series I a few years ago. Family, yes, albeit an expensive one. I do plan to go in the near future and check this out with them. For years I['ve been trying to copy casady's tone (ha! good luck). Nice to be resting now in my own voice ;-) | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1135 Registered: 9-2002 |
Let's make this even more of an enigma: 'Your' sound (and 'mine') is in your head and your hands. You WILL find this sound on virtually every axe you play, REGARDLESS of what it is. That you remember the sound from an axe you no longer own, and found it again on a completely different bass (and a Prestige SoundGear Five is a nice axe) should only confrim this to you. Of course, with experience and some education and experience, you'll learn what types of gear serve your vision best. Over time this will begin to reveal itself as far as what kind of bass/amp has the most and easiest way to 'get there'. I would not go crazy switching out gear immediately, if you're not really experienced at gear choices to drive a certain sound: You may spend a lot of money and only 'tread water' and not progress towards that sound. Solidify and live and grow that tone with your present rig to where you can spot it a mile away, THEN start casting around equipment-wise. The tone that came to me is two-pickup bass with a bit of back pickup for that articulation, through an amp tone that's half modern Eden/half Motown. In other words, a bassy tone without the woof and with articulation, but no clanky treble. For me, it was WAY easier to get with a neckthru, inasmuch as I hear something missing as does Kimberly in a set-neck, same with a bolt-on. And ultimately, playing an ALEMBIC five with FatBoys (or the AXYs it originally came with) offered a clarity (via Ron's fabulous electronics) that just wasn't as available even with good pickups like Barts or EMGs. The ALEMBIC electronics also led me to running through the Eden rigs virtually flat, something you've already discovered. Modern basses with 3-band EQ into amps with lots of cut and boost are a terrific way to bury great tone under tons of overboosted,-notched, -cut EQ curves. I'd prefer to hear the bass virtually 'acoustic', hear it for what it is (the 'log' sound you speak of). That's why a real overlooked part of ALEMBIC electronics is NOT using the filter switch, and having straight tone control with active elctronics. I'd never own an ALEMBIC with bass/treble cut/boost, the filter circuits are as clear as cold air and suit me too well. I always say that my ALEMBIC prompted me (hell, forced me at gunpoint!) to really perfect my sound, because suddenly I could hear everything that was wrong with it! My former amps, strings, and cables, even, were suddenly having to explain to that damn bass why they made him sound so indistinct and less than perfect. You've really discovered something VERY fundamental, and WAY more useful than spending the rest of your life trying to sound like somebody on your favorite record. Congratulations. J o e y | ||
| maclamb
Junior Username: maclamb Post Number: 22 Registered: 3-2006 |
Joey - very well said. And yes, the sound is in my head and my hands - literally - as my finger technique to draw the acoustic/hollow/log-resonance is part draw finger across string and part tap/percussive effect (my action is too low, hence the clicking you hear. Maybe not "Proper bass fingering technique" - like I care ;-) It's MY fingering technique. It's hard to express how much crap (trying to sound like;/be someone else) falls away and opens up at this point ;) Like iin Bagger Vanc e- my "authentic swing." At this point I'm a tad skeptical that the inner, deeper "organic" log sound is doable on anything but a neck-thru, but I concede that any bass and amp with enough tweaking could get close. Your point about discovering it with everything set "flat' - that is indeed how I found it - set my bass to flat and amp to 2 pm on bass, treble and mid and tube gain to FULL - that actually seemed a requirement. When I back off the tube gain I lose the tone - As I mentioned, I first heard it on my series 1 thru a swr w/ tube preamp. I totally get that what I have now is a solid "reference" point for my ear - I can build and experiment from there. So, now I can listent for it. I like as a "test' - start all flat and see what it takes to get there. I think, the bass that has this all flat - then tweak to enhance, briing it out mor e- maybe my main baby. SO now I learn on what I have - an excellent teaching device - technically to bring it out and artistically to incorporate it into the music well and tastefully. I do plan to visit alembic and see what they say. I think your point about alembic pups bringing the tone out easier" and a Q switch (var-pan mid?) is spot on. So, a Rogue or Essence with XY pups and a Q switch sounds like the road to take. |
