| Author | Message | ||
| rockbassist
Intermediate Member Username: rockbassist Post Number: 104 Registered: 8-2005 |
I have a question. I am not trying to criticize Alembic and I do understand supply and demand economics. A couple of years ago, I was looking to trade my Musicman Stingray 5 string for something more upscale. I went to the closest guitar store to my house which happened to be a Guitar Center which was 1 hour away. I figured tha since I was in Massachusetts that I would find a Pedulla, Modulus or Zon. Instead I found a beautiful Epic 5 string. It has a walnut top, mahogony body, MXY56 activators and the 5 piece maple neck. It also has an ebony finger board, the raised brass script logo, raised brass logo, crescent tail piece, and some other things that are not on the "basic for retail" Epic bass. With all apologies to Series and other higher end users, I think this is the most perfect bass ever built. I love the weight, shape, playability and tone. (Although I might add a filter) My question is why is it that in order to buy this bass from Alembic it would easily cost over $5,000 yet used it is less than 1/4 that price. I have had 1970's Fender Precision and Jazz basses that held their value better. You would think that given the history of great players such as John Entwistle having played Alembic that these basses would hold there value better thna other "boutique" basses? There are even some Series basses on ebay for less than $3,000. I wouldn't sell my Epic for $10,000 yet I see used ones for $1,200. What are your thougts. | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 1380 Registered: 6-2002 |
Congrats on buying a great bass! What you mention is an old problem with ANY instrument that has not come off an industrial assembly line: they very rarely hold the price you pay for them new. When you say - note that actually all the details that you mentioned before that are standard on an Epic. That is the quality that leads to a high retail price. | ||
| terryc
Intermediate Member Username: terryc Post Number: 118 Registered: 11-2004 |
I paid $1800 for my MK standard in 1998 from Rudy's Music Stop, it was immaculate bar a slight dent in the body..brought it back to the UK and was approached by a man in a pub who offered me £2000 for it. They are very expensive over here even second hand but I gather you can get them for silly money in the states. Old fenders..well say no more especially pre CBS | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 485 Registered: 11-2003 |
Keep in mind that when you use the quote generator on the website you are generating a retail price, e.g., what the bass would cost if you purchased directly from the factory. If you go through a dealer, there are discounts applied that will lower the cost quite a bit. As far as holding value, Alembic is not as well known a brand as a Fender. Fender was the original electric bass, has been around for over fifty years, so it's not surprising that these are more collectible/desirable in the eyes of many. They're just better known, not necessarily aesthetically or otherwise better. What I've noted about used Alembics is yeah, they take a hit in value, but rarely will you see one fall below a certain price point, e.g., I've yet to see an Epic go for less than $900 used, or an Essence 4 less than $1100. What Alembics do is hold their value at a certain price point, which is why a lot of folks buy them used. They allow the original owner to absorb the depreciation, then they buy the instrument used (and most tend to be in mint to near mint condition from what I've seen) at what in many cases is half or less of the original cost. I've said it before and I'll say it again - no bass is worth more than you're willing to pay regardless of make. If that vintage Fender is worth $10K to you, than it's worth it. To me, an Alembic is worth every penny, regardless of cost. I have vintage Fenders, Gibsons, Musicmans, etc. I love them all for different reasons, but I can say from experience that they're just not in the same league as an Alembic from a quality and versatility standpoint. Are they worth as much as the Alembic money wise? Well, certainly, I could probably sell my '73 Jazz for at least $2K, maybe more (it has the black blocks, etc.). Same goes for my '79 Stingray, 70's Rick 4001s, etc. But none of them comes close from a craftsmanship and quality point of view. That's the value of Alembic - world class quality, workmanship, attention to detail, and customer service after the sale (and I've been more than pleased with their after the sale support - they replaced a jack and circuit board on my Europa at no cost when there was a problem, and also took care of a finish problem that didn't appear until the bass had some time to "age" a bit after I bought it). Fenders, even the ones that come out of the Custom Shop don't even come close. I'm sure they're fine instruments, but IMHO they're not in the same league. At the risk of sounding philosophical, when you buy an Alembic, you're buying more than an instrument. You're buying the extension of the idea and belief what an electric guitar or bass should be, look like, sound like, feel like. That idea embraces quality above quantity; handmade vs. machine made; custom vs. mass produced; small family owned company vs. mega manufacturer; small quantities produced vs. large quantities produced. All of this conspires to drive prices up. Alembic has to do this to maintain the extremely high standard they've set for themselves. They cannot survive by offering bargain basement prices for world class instruments. What this means is that the cost is passed on to the consumer, but that same consumer receives a world class, second-to-none, superlative quality instrument. To me, the price justifies the end result. My two cents, Alan | ||
| keavin
Senior Member Username: keavin Post Number: 1109 Registered: 12-2002 |
In the 70's alembic was known as the $2,000 bass,so depending on the seller (who doesn't have a blue book handy) if he sees the name Alembic on a bass he's gonna automaticaly jack up the price with out knowing which alembic model he has or if it's a real one,I've seen one of those Cheap alembic copys (the ones with bolt on necks & P-Bass pickups)at a pawnshop for $2,000 & some body Bought the damn thing! | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 2104 Registered: 9-2003 |
I've whined about this subject ad naseum here on the Club, especially with regards to MSRP and discounts available from same VS. resale value. Regardless, even the resident site cheapskate realizes that YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR! Personally, I don't sell my stuff...anything I've ever bought that's good, I still have...so while it's great to get a used Alembic for a steal, no one else is likely to benefit from my original owner hit on resale value. AFAIC, let the masses eat cake: I'll play my Alembics, and they can have all the overpriced vintage Fenders they want. That leaves more Alembics for those of us that appreciate the difference. Cheers, Kevin | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1162 Registered: 9-2002 |
I'm not nearly as confused by a $6k Alembic selling for $1500 used as I am by a Fender that retailed for $500 in the sixties selling for $20k now. Even more confusing to pay Alembic prices for current Fender Custom Shop pieces. I look at Fenders as D-I-Y instruments: You screw one together. Home Depot should sell them. Past hot-rodding a Squier or Mexican Fender, I'd just call Warmoth. Everybody and his uncle makes hot-rod parts. Why would I give Sadowsky or Mike Lull, etc., LOTS of money for something I can do myself? Warmoth sells them painted and even mounted with a roughed-in nut in wood combos to your taste. And there's more places than Warmoth to do the same thing. It's the vagaries of the used market, driven by lots of different reasons. I'm not complaining as it's made used Alembics affordable for folks who might never get one otherwise. This in turn brings them in to our community, and a lot of them later make a way to buy a new one. It's also great for me in that I love old Japanese instruments: Since they're way under-valued in the used market, I've stolen several. That's where cost vs. value comes in. Guitar Center / Blue Book / 'The Market' says Rockbassist's Epic COSTS $1200 used. Any objective person would think hand-production, exceptional wood, and world-class electronics would be WORTH more than a new StingRay Five, which COSTS the same thing. These comparisons happen in any market for all products. And customers vote with their wallet. So in most cases, the used market baffles me, but I'm not complaining for under-valuing everything I like. I always say: PLEASE keep paying those nosebleed prices for Fenders so I can keep stealing my rice-burners ! ! | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 2267 Registered: 7-2004 |
Alan: About 6 months ago I found a five string Epic - superb walnut top - on craigslist for $650! I grabbed it (filthy, missing one knob, but otherwise no problms) and sold it to my bass player for the same price. Why do Alembics lose a lot of their value? I don't know, but did you ever notice that Rolls Royce is very similar in this regard? You can get a used Rolls for quite a bit less than new. But it still kicks ass on the '57 Chevy "collector car" Bill, tgo (Message edited by lbpesq on April 02, 2007) | ||
| tubeperson
Junior Username: tubeperson Post Number: 46 Registered: 5-2005 |
The value isue is similar for many luxury item i.e. boats, cars, audiophile stereo equipment etc. The person that buys these new is willing to pay a premium for the "snob" effect". Snob is not meant here as a negative, hell I own 4 Alembics and Marantz tubed equipment from the 50's, and very few people feel I am a snob about anything execpt for coffee. Rather it is the euphoria from being able to buy new exotic and expensive items first. What that also means is that these same buyers are willing to move their merchandise quickly when the next new item comes along. This dementia is simialr to the vintage market; imagine $300,000 for a Gibson Les Paul? Or any premium for an instrument played by Carlos Alomar, or any known musician (what is it the sweat, the cigarette burns?) What cracks me up about the current vintage market is that it seems there are more pre-CBS bassess now than there were actually made. If Fender can make relics, so can others. My vote find whatever you like, especially but not necessarily limited to Alembics! | ||
| dannobasso
Senior Member Username: dannobasso Post Number: 493 Registered: 3-2004 |
Its not just a bass (or guitar), its a lifestyle! I love em' and have paid all kinds of prices new and used. I have only used the resale argument when I was trying to convince people I wasn't insane and could sell them if I had to to survive. (not gonna happen) I try not to dwell on the sway of the market forces. Carpe Diem and Caviat Emptor! (i appologize in advance to the mj enlightened Latin scholors for any spelling infraction) | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 1217 Registered: 2-2006 |
To "further" elaborate on Bill’s car analogy; I know a guy that purchased a new Corvette a few months ago for a little over $53K. He totaled it one month to the day after buying it. His insurance settled the claim for $48K. 10% depreciation in one month is not a good return on your money. But you know what, he turned around and bought another Corvette. | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1524 Registered: 3-2004 |
The odd thing is that Alembic is primarily known for their basses, but the guitars seem to hold value better. Maybe it's just that there aren't any fifteen year old Persuader-class guitars out there, but you almost never get your hands on any Alembic guitar for under $2K these days. If you buy a new Alembic, you better know what you're after because you'll lose your shirt if you make a mistake on the order and decide to sell. On the other hand, a used Alembic has been a pretty safe buy compared to a lot of other instruments out there. It is what it is. Understand it. Accept it. Act accordingly. -bob | ||
| bracheen
Senior Member Username: bracheen Post Number: 1192 Registered: 11-2003 |
I understand and accept. I'm not complaining. I'm right there with Joey on that. My '94 Epic cost me around $780 in 2003. Sam | ||
| fc_spoiler
Senior Member Username: fc_spoiler Post Number: 458 Registered: 5-2006 |
True, but most Alembic guitars offered I saw were series instruments... I opened a new bankaccount and started saving $$$ for my custom Elan, I'm sure it will be worth every penny (+/-$7500) I've paid 1300 euro's for my Spoilers (1300 each) :-) According to the Quote generator these basses will also be $7000+ new Best investments I ever did regarding bass gear. I also bought a Spoiler for 1100 euro's on ebay and later on swapped it for a Gibson Ripper, the worst decision I ever made regarding bass gear... (the Gibson was nice though, but not great like the Alembic) I believe the "dealer" discount doesn't apply overseas? (on this side of the huge pile of water) Cheerz! Flip FC Bass, my bass site | ||
| glocke
Intermediate Member Username: glocke Post Number: 176 Registered: 9-2002 |
depreciation on anything new is par for the course..if you buy a used alembic, if you need to sell it, you will more than likely get your money back out of it if you need to sell it... IMO, Alembics are worth every penny, wheter you buy them used or new...They truly are one of a kind in terms of craftsmanship, looks, and tone... Ive played a few higher end basses (Smiths, Warwicks ), and while they sounded good, they just did not have the clarity, cleanliness and wide range of tones that alembics have... The things I dont get are the thousands of dollars that people pay for vintage jazz basses...I own two (64 and a 72), that have doubled in value since Ive owned them..>While they sound allright, I dont think they are worth the $$$$... Firearms are this way also, I collect military surplus weapons (yes, I am a gun nut also), and you guys would be AMAZED at what some people, (including my self) pay for some stuff | ||
| inthelows
Advanced Member Username: inthelows Post Number: 369 Registered: 11-2006 |
Like so many things Beauty as well true value is in the eye of the beholder. If you've got the scratch and can afford it I'm pretty sure you're gonna buy it. Why. who knows? Too many reasons not not to. I've got a basement full of all kinds of junk. Why, because G>A>S> got to me. Not to mention at the time something about them appealed to me. Right or wrong isn't an issue here. What's it really worth? I don't know. Is a Quarterback in the NFL really worth $20 million. Some people think so. Kinda takes the fun out of it if ya know what I'm say-in'. You still pay those outrageous ticket prices to cheer'em on. What's my Alembic worth to me? More than I paid for for sure. The others have their place. If someone wants to trade their corvette for a Fender P-bass let'em. Their choice. Right back to Eye of the Beholder thing. Not to mention some habits are darn hard to break! I may be like the fool on the hill or going to hell in a bucket, at least I'm enjoy-in the ride. My $0.02 NLP | ||
| jsaylor
Intermediate Member Username: jsaylor Post Number: 104 Registered: 11-2006 |
When someone decided they don't want their guitar, and they want to sell it they have to go cheap. Demand dictates price. If not many people want them, prices are low. Alembics popularity also has to do with it. Not too many people in "real life" know about Alembic, so that impacts it. People might just not like the Alembic style. To each his own I guess. For example, if I found a Garcia tribute for around $2000 I'd snatch it up, but anything else I probably wouldn't, so you have to take into factor that one person likeing a certian Alembic model doesn't mean nessecarly he likes them all, or anyothers. Judge by model, not by name. tl;dr- Prices are low because demand is low. (Message edited by jsaylor on April 02, 2007) | ||
| 88persuader
Advanced Member Username: 88persuader Post Number: 294 Registered: 5-2004 |
The only thing "I" don't understand is most companies who sell factory direct to their customers give the customer a better price by cutting out the retailer. But with Alembics you can get a MUCH better deal from a retailer then you can get factory direct. This simply doesn't make any sence to me at all!!! A friend of mine just bought a Carvin 5 string bass with all the bells and whistles they offer for under $1,400.00 case included. I was BLOWN AWAY by the workmenship on this custom CHEAP bass. In my opinion it's worth double what he paid for it easy. It's NOT quite up to Alembic standards but for the build quality and price it's an AMAZING value! After seeing and playing it I'd buy one in a heart beat at that price! It definitely blows away any Fender, Warwick or MusicMan I've ever owned. How come Alembic doesn't make it CHEAPER for customers to buy factory direct? It doesn't make any sense at all. Factory direct cuts out the retailer ... since when is retail far LESS expensive then factory direct?! | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 1386 Registered: 6-2002 |
Raymond - it's about volumes. Carvin probably produces and sells as much in a month, as Alembic does in at least a year. They have the funds to market and distribute their products outside of retail. Alembic is a small family-owned business with a bit of an attitude towards perfection, which is what attracts a relatively small, but loyal audience of dealers and customers. Note that dealers who stock Alembic probably also fork out 50% in advance. You may have noticed that some custom instruments can get delayed for months - you won't survive in the retail business if you can't deliver on time as there is just too much money tied up in that system. So small is beautiful, and it can't come cheap, and sometimes you have to be patient. In the US, Carvin only sells direct (they tried overseas dealers, but you no longer see much of them over here) which indeed takes the retailer's cut out of the equation. However, I doubt that you pay Carvin what a dealer would pay - they probably make part of their profit on the difference. | ||
| 88persuader
Advanced Member Username: 88persuader Post Number: 295 Registered: 5-2004 |
Adriaan, I understand Alembics attitude toward perfection ... I love my Alembic because of it. And I understand that volume sales drive down prices. Business 101 ... My confusion isn't "Why are Alembic's expensive" it's Why are they more expensive factory direct then from a retailer? If I understand what you're saying you think it's because the retailer puts 50% of the money down in advance for the discount? Well ... how about the end customer getting a better then the current retail price while going factory direct by paying in full in advance? Just a thought. I don't want to sound anti-Alembic ... I'm an owner and a fan. But retail simply should not be cheaper then factory direct. (Perhaps i'm just not sharp enough of a businessman to understand the reasons behind it.) | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 1389 Registered: 6-2002 |
One Alembic dealer told me that when he orders Alembics from the factory, he pays 50% in advance, and again 50% on delivery - which may take a long time. This is the same for custom orders on behalf of customers, and for his selection of instruments on sale. Of course the dealer gets a discount from the MSRP, but he can't very well sell you the instrument without a bit of profit to keep his business afloat. And he also has to fork out the import duties (something like 20%) when the instruments arrive. With large volume brands, the dealer pays dealer price on instruments that have already been made, or that are coming off a production line, and he pays in advance, on receipt of the goods, or he can even get credit and pay after sale. He can more easily sell these brands, so the cash flow is much easier to deal with. Alembic does allow you to order direct from them, but they discourage that for at least two good reasons: (1) they don't want to spend too much time not building instruments, (2) dealers usually know their Alembics, so they're able to help you make the decisions that you never get to make with run-of-the-mill instruments, and so you stand less chance of ordering one that you will end up not liking. | ||
| 88persuader
Advanced Member Username: 88persuader Post Number: 296 Registered: 5-2004 |
There are instrument makers who will do custom orders however will NOT sell to you direct. You need to place your custom order through one of their dealers. Ken Smith basses is like this. They have a web site, all the information you need about their product but do not sell direct, period. I guess there are aspects of small businesses I'll never fully understand. Alembic charges more for factory direct then they do the same instrument sold through a dealer. This just seems backwards to me. If they want to discourage factory direct orders why not just do what Ken Smith does? Anyway I'm sure Alembic has their reasons for handling orders and pricing the way they do and it works for them. To me their methods simply seem a litte strange. | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 1390 Registered: 6-2002 |
Look what I found: the Smith Bass Forums. This appears to be a new addition to the Smith site. Does it have a Factory to Customer section? No (or not yet, to be fair). But I doubt that they want to discuss on-going build details with the customer. So yes, Alembic does things a little differently. | ||
| jags
Intermediate Member Username: jags Post Number: 124 Registered: 12-2006 |
yes i would have to say that i agree with aj totally and "big reds" first paragraph. how does an old piece of crap apppreciate thousands of dollars when its been gigged and worn down for 35+ years!? one reason IMHO why alembics depreciate so much is because of labour. there is so much involved in making one and the craftsman must get paid for him/herself to live. thats where most of the costs come from. in our society when we purchase something "used" we demand(more or less) that labour shouldnt be part of the cost and see it only as "pieces of wood disgarded by someone for some reason,probably bad, and i should make out well getting it used". with no regard of the craftmenship or the efforts in the electronics from Mr. Wickersham. i must say in the last few months keeping an eye on ebay, i'm amazed at what is being sold. and if i was rich, well lets just say i would have many more then the 6 i have now, thats for sure and many would be used. i wouldnt even be concerned, cause i know they sound just as good 10 yrs used as brand new!!!!  right Will? the killer and unfortunate thing for myself is that using a generator my custom gets up to at least $24 000, and i'm sure it would be more when i talked to them about specifics. it would be a stunning bass,amazing really,but would i be able to sell it for over $20 000 prolly not.  | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 731 Registered: 2-2005 |
Ray, The reason for keeping the factory price at full retail is to protect the dealer network. This is not an uncommon business practice. Another area where you see this is the furniture industry. I live close to many manufacturer outlets here in NC. I can get much lower prices than you see in a store showroom. However these outlets are restricted on how and to whom they can sell in order to protect their dealer networks. Keith | ||
| dannobasso
Senior Member Username: dannobasso Post Number: 497 Registered: 3-2004 |
The price of labor and materials says it all. A huge portion is labor. Though they do sweat, a sweatshop this aint. When i want something unique for me i order a new one. When something used entices me, used it is. I picked up a perfect refurbed Distillate 5 which was used but more like new-old stock. Right place,right time, which sometimes happens. So the current new to used score is 10 to 6 in the bottom of the 9th with 1 new in progress, one for refinish and a used on the way. Yeah, can i get a dog,diet coke and some popcorn please? oh nuts! I'm out of cash! | ||
| u14steelgtr
Member Username: u14steelgtr Post Number: 53 Registered: 7-2003 |
Anyone that knows anything about investment and the nature of the depreciation curve of Alembic instruments in relation to their cash currency of choice could not custom order an Alembic instrument as an investment and expect it to appreciate in value in the short term. Some people as a hobby; collect instruments which they basically never play. Every so often I will hear or read somewhere something like: --> "I got this one as a collector piece only; and it has only been out of its case a few times when I wanted to show off." This investment model can work in the vintage instrument market where people are really engaging in commodities trading instead of purchasing instruments which will be played. But they better hope that the "mint" condition instrument does not develop any finish crazing, develop cracks from being inadequately humidified, or have their 9 year old discover it and pretend to be Pete Townsend. Comodities trading is after all just another form of gambling. I think that the depreciation rate of new Alembic made instruments boils down to this. Every Alembic is a custom instrument. So the price of a new Alembic is based upon some persons willingness to pay a premium to have their current-ideal instrument built exactly to their specifications. However one persons ideal is never a universal ideal. The willingness of a person to pay top dollar for anything that is not exactly what someone's ideal may be is at best improbable. Regards -- Eugene (Message edited by u14steelgtr on April 03, 2007) | ||
| rami
Senior Member Username: rami Post Number: 642 Registered: 6-2002 |
Jags and Big Red, I think the mistake is that some people compare Alembics to Fenders in terms of construction, quality, features etc... Those old Fenders represent more than just instruments. They have been part of our culture since 1946. They revolutionized popular music for 61 years. When Bassists started playing electric Basses, they played Fenders. They played a major role in the birth of Rock 'n' Roll, Motown, The Blues, Country Western, Jazz, etc. Fenders represent Americana - musical and popular culture. They were (and still are) played by most of the great and most influential musicians. You can't view them as mere instruments - they're cultural icons. This is why they hold their value. Sure, a 10k '60's Fender won't have the quality, sound or sheer beauty and artistry of an Alembic - but they're two completely different animals, prized and adored for COMPLETELY different reasons. Rami | ||
| jalevinemd
Senior Member Username: jalevinemd Post Number: 558 Registered: 12-2003 |
I think Rami summed it up perfectly, though why someone would pay $450,000 for a '59 Les Paul is beyond me. | ||
| jsaylor
Intermediate Member Username: jsaylor Post Number: 105 Registered: 11-2006 |
Jonathan, They go for that much because their in high demand for collectors. | ||
| jseitang
Advanced Member Username: jseitang Post Number: 203 Registered: 6-2002 |
comparing vintage fenders and alembics now is like comparing a 55 corvette and a new mercedes benz. its apples and oranges. | ||
| dannobasso
Senior Member Username: dannobasso Post Number: 498 Registered: 3-2004 |
Can't you eat both? Not the cars certainly. | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 4386 Registered: 6-2000 |
Why do we sell at the published price from the factory? Because some customers insist on it, and we are about custom. Every person that wants to buy direct, I try to introduce to a dealer so they can get not only a better price on their Alembic purchase, but also on future purchases on non-Alembic items to go with it. Many Alembic customers realize they have to upgrade other equipment in their signal path at some point, and having a relationship with a dealer can be a very good thing. But there are a few people that simply do not want to go through a dealer. Since they can't get an Alembic made by anyone but us, we do as we are requested. My theory about why the used values are lower: we are still building custom instruments. Who would spend $10,000 on a used Alembic when they could spend $10,000 getting one made exactly the way they wanted? Epics and Spoilers seem to hold more percentage value because there are more of them that are similar to each other, and people are familiar with them. Once you have custom options on an instrument, the supply for that particular piece goes down to exactly 1, and the buyers have more work to figure out what they are buying. Maybe it will be exactly what they want, maybe it will be close, maybe they won't be interested at all. It's a blessing and a curse, this world of custom. | ||
| flaxattack
Senior Member Username: flaxattack Post Number: 1444 Registered: 4-2004 |
and in some cases thats why some customs are still getting a decent return i.e older series 2 imho "lower" end alembics are like the first free hit the dealer used to give you,. hmmmm like that? soom youre hooked,,,,,,,, then those thoughts come in..... you fight it.......... but you cant resist......... sooner or later you need something stronger........ then you see that special discount for coco bolo................. then you place your order for your custom....... you wait patiently........ wondering if you did the right thing........ thinkin you are nuts to spend this type of $$$$$$.......... bass comes......... AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH......... you did the right thing...... then you start collecting...... those wickershams are pretty cagey people,,,, lmao | ||
| jags
Intermediate Member Username: jags Post Number: 127 Registered: 12-2006 |
my thoughts exactly flax,though with myself i was lucky enough to get my nicest one first! my 20th anniversary. sometimes its also like they say,"first one is for suckers". well i definately got sucked in! though it was my best decision ever. now i have 6 including a baritone orion,and i'm not a guitar player but learning. my friends and other people are like"why is it that you only play alembic. is it cause their the most expensive, you can only play that?" then i'll plug in or let them play,then they change their mind when they hear it and find out what a great deal a used one can be. they ask me why i got the guitar. i say cause i want the best straight away, i have confidence in the product. i dont want to get something else only to have the eventual happen, and thats get an alembic guitar. why mess around and waste time and money ,just go straight for it,and start enjoying immediately. thats my philosophy, but usually that's what happens when people dont educate themselves about alembic though,sadly. oh well their loss,one day they may get it. (Message edited by jags on April 04, 2007) | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1526 Registered: 3-2004 |
I guess that means I started out as a pusher. I talked a few people into buying Alembic basses dating back to the mid 80s, but didn't get sucked in to buy one for myself until this decade. I must admit that I did occasionally sample the merchandise over the years. It was probably that loaner Spoiler/Exploiter I had for a few weeks courtesy of a music store managing friend in the late 90s that really got me hooked. That was one heavy monkey to carry on my back, and weight was the only reason I didn't keep that bass. Sure, I admit I have a problem but don't anybody try to start a new chapter of AA.... -bob | ||
| alembic_doctor
Advanced Member Username: alembic_doctor Post Number: 253 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hi. My name is Doc. And I'm an Alembaholic. IT all started when I was a kid. Maybe as young as 4.......... | ||
| flaxattack
Senior Member Username: flaxattack Post Number: 1446 Registered: 4-2004 |
lol | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 487 Registered: 11-2003 |
As I read through this thread again, I keep coming back to the phrase "value" or "holding it's value". Value is relative to the person who owns the instrument. To some, an instrument is beyond value if there are characteristics that instrument holds. In this sense, value is incalculable. If one defines value by price point, then yes, there are many other marques that can meet one's needs. If one defines value by quality and craftsmanship, then Alembic is second to none (IMHO). But I think you will rarely find quality, value, and price in the same sentence if you're looking for "Alembic quality/value" at mass produced instrument prices. My two cents, Alan | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 1395 Registered: 6-2002 |
Ah, the chivalry: "Because some customers insist on it" | ||
| alembic_doctor
Advanced Member Username: alembic_doctor Post Number: 254 Registered: 8-2002 |
To be quite honest, if I was a guy who didn't need a deal on an Alembic, I'd pay retail and deal directly with Alembic. Fortunately for me, I was always very persuasive with my customers and they insisted on dealing with me. | ||
| the_mule
Senior Member Username: the_mule Post Number: 624 Registered: 1-2004 |
Market value isn't the same as personal value. My opinion is that one should be aware of the secondhand market for Alembics being a buyer's market. You should only buy a new Alembic if you really know what you want. If you don't know (yet) the secondhand market offers great opportunities to discover your personal preferences. I've gone full circle. My first Alembic was a new (N.O.S.) Orion. I loved it, but I foolishly considered it to be a budget model and in a way not a 'real' Alembic. So soon I was looking for an upgrade without being fully aware of the great instrument I had in my hands already. What did I really know, considering I was drooling over pictures of Signature and Series instruments but never played one? Fast forward a few years and I can say that I've owned an Orion, an Elan, an EVH Signature and a Series I. The Elan, EVH and Series I were purchased secondhand, and as a buyer I took full advantage of the steep decrease in value of new Alembics when they enter the secondhand market. I've tried them, enjoyed them very much, but in the process I discovered that they're dream basses, but just not MY dream basses. If you look at my collection now my one and only Alembic is again a new (N.O.S.) Orion. Wilfred | ||
| hifiguy
Member Username: hifiguy Post Number: 95 Registered: 10-2006 |
I've been around serious High End audio as a hobbyist and journalist/reviewer for twenty years and the same questions get asked there. The same question always comes up: "Why do these things cost so much?" Alembic basses and Wilson Audio loudspeakers ALWAYS generate that question. The answers are the same in both cases. They are both small companies passionate about building the absolute best products they possibly can build, at the cutting edge of technology. Being small they have few economies of scale, and both work with exotic and expensive materials that require particularly excellent craftsmanship. Alembic's woods and Wilson's proprietary composites (used for speaker enclosures) are hellaciously expensive. They pay their people well and view them as investments, not cost centers. Furthermore, there is a greater demand for both products than their makers can supply. I have owned my Alembic for eight years, and for the last year and a half had the incredible good fortune to have a review pair of Wilson MAXX 2 loudspeakers in house. I can't afford them, even at industry discount - they're $49k per pair at your local hifi hut - but the experience of being in the presence of something special, seeing the care taken in the design and build, not to mention their one of a kind sonic performance, is identical to what I experience with my Alembic. I will miss these speakers like I have missed no other component that has passed through my music room for review. It is ironic that one pays a few hundred bucks for a bass or a pair of speakers that embody the work of hundreds of people, but thousands, or even tens of thousands of dollars for products that embody the love and dedication of a few dozen artisans. But the handmade bass/speaker has something that can best be called soul and the mass produced product ain't got that for jack. Artisanal products are worth what they cost because of the aesthetic and ethic of the people who build them. It seems utterly insane to me to spend $10-20k on a "vintage" (read old and beat up) Fender just because it's old and beat up. It's still just a Fender and it does well the few things that Fenders do well. I suspect many of those doing this are collectors, like a couple of watch collectors I know. But at least they wear their fancy watches once in a while. My guess is that many of the instrument collecting fanatics never even play their instruments. Would you play a Clapton provenance Gibson that you paid $250,000 or more for? I think not. Instruments are made to be played, not mounted like a moosehead or stored in a vault. A Fender Jazz (and I've owned half a dozen, including two currently) is a brilliantly designed simple tool that functions well. My Stan Sig Std is a work of art, a thing of joy, beauty and inspiration. Even after eight years, there are times I just sit and look at it for enjoyment. When I leave this planet, she is going back to Santa Rosa. If I'm not here to cherish her, I want her to go home, where she will be loved as I have loved her. | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 2124 Registered: 9-2003 |
Paul, I should have done a Google search a long time ago: I've been a long-time Stereophile reader (since the '80's) and an even longr-time audiophile (since the '70's). It's an honor and a pleasure to have a distinguished journo here amongst our ranks. Imagine my embarassment for having paraphrased and/or quoted Sterophile in threads you were a part of, LOL! My apologies. I was just having this same conversation with my Bro. We were discussing hi-end instruments and hi-end audio/home theatre. He's been spending a fortune on mid-fi audio/video and is caught-up in GAS. It's easy to do...I've dumped more than my fair share on hi-end audio, home theatre and hi-end guitars/basses/amps. He realises that he will continue to spend and lose money on same...especially since he can't resist upgrading. At least he enjoys it, and is willing to take the hit. Now I'm trying to get him to get back into guitars. I know...I'm evil! LOL! I look at it this way: I keep my stuff for a long time. While severely tempted to succumb to uprade-itis, I try to buy the best quality stuff that I can afford and hold on to it and enjoy same for as long as possible With hi-fi, at least I get my use out of it (i.e., ten years or more) so when and if I upgrade, I don't feel too bad about past money spent. With instruments, they're mine virtually forever. I never "upgrade", I just add to the "collection"...and they all do get played (eventually, LOL!). Alembics to me are heirloom quality. They can be handed-down for generations because of the Wickershams's refusal to compromise design and build quality. While mass-market stuff is what it is, my Alembics will continue to wow (me at least) regardless of age and which trends come and go. Moral of the story: buy what you can afford and enjoy the H*ll out of it! Who cares what it'll be worth? It's worth what you're willing to pay and especially worth it if you enjoy it. Resale doesn't mean that much if you can't enjoy what you bought because of the "investment potential". Cheers, Kevin | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1565 Registered: 3-2004 |
Paul- Is Alembic really at the cutting edge of technology? As far as I can tell, they were there 30 years ago, but maybe not so much anymore. Outside of altering body shapes and tweaking specs on existing electronics, I can't recall the last time they introduced something completely new. If being on the cutting edge were that important, your eight year old Alembic might even be obsolete by now. I would argue that Alembic got it right with their designs and that they have stood the test of time, not that they are at the cutting edge of technology. | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 492 Registered: 11-2003 |
Bob - Is Alembic really at the cutting edge of technology? As far as I can tell, they were there 30 years ago, but maybe not so much anymore. Outside of altering body shapes and tweaking specs on existing electronics, I can't recall the last time they introduced something completely new. If being on the cutting edge were that important, your eight year old Alembic might even be obsolete by now. I would argue that Alembic got it right with their designs and that they have stood the test of time, not that they are at the cutting edge of technology. Is Alembic at the cutting edge of technology? I don't know. We have to define what the "cutting edge of technology" is in terms of basses and guitars. Is it digital, a la Line 6 and their Variax line of basses and guitars? Is it Gibson and their "digital" Les Paul? Is it digital effects and midi? I don't know, honestly. It truly doesn't matter what's "cutting edge," only what sounds good. Is the standard Fender Precision any different from those produced in the 50's? Structurally, not much. Does it sound relatively the same? To me, yes. Would I buy one for $20K? No only no, but "L$K no. Again, it's all about tone. If an Alembic delivers it, buy it. If not, seek life and bassdom and guitardom elsewhere. I agree that they got it right the first time. For everything else, there's Mastercard. My two cents, Alan (Message edited by ajdover on April 30, 2007) | ||
| chuck
Intermediate Member Username: chuck Post Number: 119 Registered: 3-2005 |
If it a'int broke don't fix it.And I would have to agree with Andy Chuck | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 1285 Registered: 2-2006 |
Cutting edge technology and artistic impression, can they really work hand in hand? HMMMM… I would think so, but when the technology over takes the art this could be a bad thing. But on the flip side I’ve heard lazy players have an awful sound (due to either bad equipment or lack of talent or practice) and say it’s “artistic impression” when in reality it’s their own apathetic approach to their “music” that creates the “monster” they call art. We should have good equipment and hone our skills. I personally think that my Alembics are not only good but the best equipment out there. The only negative I can see is that I’ve had to really clean up my playing. Alembic instruments are very unforgiving when it comes to sloppy playing. So to sum it all up, IMHO, Alembics the perfect mix of ART and Technology. Nice to look at but much nicer to hear. (and play) | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 1013 Registered: 10-2003 |
My Series 1.5 is worth far more to me than the cash money it would attract in the marketplace. In agreement with Olie, I think we're all quite familiar with having to clean up our technique when we got our Alembic(s)! John | ||
| keavin
Senior Member Username: keavin Post Number: 1143 Registered: 12-2002 |
I turned down $8,000 Ten years ago for old Alembic Old #12. | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1176 Registered: 9-2002 |
I've often thought that electric guitars/basses are a 'mature' technology. Most practical construction materials/methods have been tried. Pickups run the gamut from mild to wild. Every conceivable amp/speaker rig has been built/tried. There WILL be people that further tweak things, probably a few ingenious ones not surfaced yet. Maybe onboard analog/digital conversion. Maybe a guitar with a plain midi output (NOT the proprietary things that Gibson and Godin among others are trying). Maybe onboard samples, like the VG Strat or the Fishmann system for acoustics. But I'm still a curmudgeon: IF I want MIDI, I'll play keyboards. If I want to play electric and yet upright comes out of the amp, I'd just play upright. And of course digital guitars would require amps with digital inputs, the REAL CyberTwin, which isn't here yet. But in a world where you can buy a groove box and a sampler and produce your own CD's after dinner WITHOUT KNOWING A DAMN THING ABOUT MUSIC, sometimes I feel like the old fool who misses steam-powered trains or planes with propellors. Nap time . . . . J o e y | ||
| richbass939
Senior Member Username: richbass939 Post Number: 834 Registered: 11-2004 |
Olie and John, I couldn't agree more about clean technique. My Alembics are the first basses I've had that didn't, to a large degree, hide sloppiness. At first it was kindof distressing. I could hear the clear, beautiful tone and also hear the crap when I got sloppy. I can imagine that some people don't like the way they sound on Alembics. Rich | ||
| jsaylor
Intermediate Member Username: jsaylor Post Number: 107 Registered: 11-2006 |
Personally, I think digital stuff is crap. Doesn't sound good at all. Plus, whats the point of converting digital to analog back to digital? No point. Analog always sounds better. Music is getting retarded lately, thanks mostly to the internet. People are thinking more strings=better,etc. People are too gear orientated anymore. The continued sucess of the Les Paul, and Stratocaster just goes to show you, gear really isn't that important. Just play the music. | ||
| hifiguy
Member Username: hifiguy Post Number: 96 Registered: 10-2006 |
Kevin: no problem if you've copped a riff or two of mine, prose wise. Occasionally I do the same thing unintentionally, and Jonathan Scull has given me some good natured ribbing about it over the years. "Heirloom" - dammit, that's just the word I was looking for. And you're right on about not treating musical instruments as investments for a monetary return. Bob, I still think that Alembic electronics are far ahead of anything else out there. Nothing else sounds remotely as good as Ron's electronics, and I've never even heard a Series in person. My Jazz and Warwick do three basic things: both pu's on played with pick or fingers, mostly bridge pu played with fingers. Those three sounds are easy enough to find on my SCSS along with hundreds of other distinctive tones, all in the highest of fi. Olie and Rich: Brother Alembicians, I am with you. It took me a long, long while for my playing to be good enough for my Alembic, and it only happened when I sort of fell into a pretty serious band about a year ago. Finally I got rid of that case of "Jazz fingers" that Olie has spoken about so often. | ||
| dannobasso
Senior Member Username: dannobasso Post Number: 534 Registered: 3-2004 |
To revisit the clean technique point, heck yeah you have to be accurate and deliberate. Now that being said, if you want to sound sloppy, no problem there. Garbage in- garbage out. But it is all subjective in the end to those who don't "get it". i do get a kick out of the sounds others get when they play my basses. It's a truth dector of musical sorts. Like drummers who can't play with a click or metronome cause time is just a magazine baby! BTW IMHO I prefer the crisp clear noise free sound of digital product. I can't even stand to listen to tape or vinyl anymore. I wasn't crazy about it before digital. Heck I still have my discwasher gear with anti-static gun. | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 1287 Registered: 2-2006 |
I went in the studio Saturday morning to lay down some bass tracks for a rather large church in our area that releases a cd every year. I took my 4 and 5 strings MK's. It was only the second time to use them in the studio. When I pulled them out of the cases I could see the engineer raise and eyebrow. He said the same thing we've speaking of here, "I sure hope your playing is clean". Well I did a total of 4 songs. I got the first three in 2 takes a piece and the 4th in one, all in about an hour. The MK's sounded AWESOME too. They are more than capable of keeping up with todays digital technology. I'll post some links to the tunes as soon as I can. It also looks like I'll be getting a lot more work form this guy. | ||
| keavin
Senior Member Username: keavin Post Number: 1146 Registered: 12-2002 |
Ive asked Marcus miller does he have any alembics in his bass collection & he said he's not really turned on by them.but you would think every famous bassplayer would have atleast one! | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 5022 Registered: 5-2002 |
Danno quoted Time is just a magazine. Love it! LOL! | ||
| oujeebass
Member Username: oujeebass Post Number: 99 Registered: 10-2002 |
Having done my 2 weeks at Guitar Center a few years ago, the industry standard trade in is 25% of retail, and they try to get 40% on resale. They use the blue book for the figures. Good thing is that standard instruments are treated roughly the same as wild customs. The bad thing is that most don't know what an Alembic is. I got a Mesa Boogie MK3 for $250 because they had it listed as a .22 Come to find out they had $350 in it originally | ||
| jason
Moderator Username: jason Post Number: 53 Registered: 1-2007 |
Using this neat calculator I found online http://www.westegg.com/inflation/ And doing some price searching for early alembics, here are some interesting figures: Adjusted for inflation, "Jack's $4,000.00 Custom" in 1972 would cost $19235.62 in 2006. A new series II should set you back at least 12000 or so through a dealer. A Spoiler, Alembic's "more affordable price than ever before" bass cost $1650 in 1981 would cost $3892.60 in 2006. An Orion new should set you back about 3500.00, again, through a dealer. How to make your bass appreciate after purchase? Well, I hope you play it. Become famous.. or at least respected in your circle. Keep it clean. Oil the fingerboard. Let random people at jam sessions play it. Wouldn't you like to say someday that Joe the now famous guy played your instrument? Let it stop a bullet for you. It will you know. What were Doc Holiday's words? "I'll make you famous" | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 1313 Registered: 2-2006 |
Using the calculator above, 2.30 US spent in 1976 would be 8.33 us today. The federal minimum wage in the 1976 was 2.30 and today is 5.15 I believe. Doesn't seem prudent does it?! | ||
| byoung
Senior Member Username: byoung Post Number: 634 Registered: 12-2004 |
Jason, I think you meant 13,000. | ||
| jason
Moderator Username: jason Post Number: 54 Registered: 1-2007 |
21,137 gdp per capita in 1972 inflation adjusted to 2003 dollars. 38,611 gdp per capita in 2003. 47 weeks of work to pay for an alembic in 1972, for the average American. 16 weeks of work to pay for a custom alembic for the average American today. 1/3rd the price of 1972, relative to buying power and inflation. 5 weeks for an average American to buy an average alembic. 1/9 the price in 1972, relative to buying power and inflation. Should we get into the continual process of perfecting the craft? How perfect the finishes are that leave here now, relative to 1972? How the electronics have been refined to peak reliability and performance over 34 years? The instruments made then were extraordinary and beautiful, but not one of them would pass my QA inspection today, at 1/9 the cost. That is the last word on "Value". | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1575 Registered: 3-2004 |
I'm not sure I follow your numbers there, Jason. I can say that for someone like my mother who was a police dispatcher, the $20K or so that job paid in 1972 hasn't turned into $100K today, it's more like $40K. If the salary for that "average" job has only just about doubled, in real numbers, then it couldn't be up as much as you suggest with inflation adjustments. Bass prices would have to significantly decrease for it to be 1/9 the effective price for someone with her job. Let's say she could have bought a new Spoiler for $1K (if they were made in '72). That would have been 1/20th of her annual salary. At $3900 today, it would be about 1/10th of that same job's starting salary. That's twice as many weeks to pay for it today than it was back then. Not that it particularly matters... As a side note, I agree that the woodworking and finish work on newer instruments seem much more impressive. As far as the electronics go, that's less obvious to those of us outside the factory. It appears that the offerings are the same as they were ten years ago. Maybe a separate thread or a FAQ posting could discuss some of the history of component upgrades? -bob | ||
| gtrguy
Intermediate Member Username: gtrguy Post Number: 106 Registered: 9-2004 |
Interesting discussion here. I'll try to add my thoughts. First, a playable instrument has a certain utility value that equals a certain amount of money. Then there is a collectable value on vintage and high end instruments. Then over and above that there is a luxury value on quality instruments built with nice woods, fancy construction, etc. Take an old Fender bass. By and large many hit recordings were made using a fender bass years ago. A lot of them sounded very good. In fact, without Fender, I doubt the rest of the bass market would have grown, including Alembic. That quality of sound would be it's utility value. Despite what you may think about a Fender, the bass does the job and does it well. Then there is the rarity of the instrument, plus it's iconic value, plus it's investment status. That is it's collectable value. Old Fenders rate very high, partly because they are recognizeable symbols (like a harley davidson). Then there is the luxury value. Although Alembic is crafted to a high luxury value compared to a Fender, old Fenders really are luxury items. Why else would anyone pay 6K for a 60's model when a new mexi jazz is so cheap and still sounds good? Also, I think many folks wanted a Fender bass years ago but could not afford one, which makes them also desireable for a generation looking to re-affirm their life via nostalgia items. Alembic was not known by and large back then, and was not in business in the fifties. Alembics are icons of a generation to a few folks who recgonize them from a few groups who used them. I am always surprised at how many responses that any posting on this forum that mentions the Grateful Dead will get. Or the Who or Led Zepp. However, there were a lot of other groups out there making music back then. I like the car analogy. For instance, I would eguate a old Fender P bass to a 65 Mustang rag top. The Alembic would equal a 70's Porsche mid range 911 to me. Old Mustangs convertibles are worth a ton of money, old 911's really aren't, despite being much more high performance. However, a driver wanting to go fast would still pick the 911 for it's utility value. They would pick the mustang (at this time) for it's collectable value. In terms of luxury, the 911 was more upscale, but the Mustang is very much a luxury item in terms of something that is not a necessity. Of course, the Mustang is an icon and a great investment. Just my thoughts. Dave | ||
| keavin
Senior Member Username: keavin Post Number: 1170 Registered: 12-2002 |
Good thought Dave,what do you think my old 1972 alembic would be worth?... | ||
| jason
Moderator Username: jason Post Number: 57 Registered: 1-2007 |
Bob, you missed the "21,137 gdp per capita in 1972 inflation adjusted to 2003 dollars" Meaning the average person made around 4600.00 actual 1972 dollars. Meaning a $4000.00 instrument would take the average person 42 weeks of work to pay for. We would have to sell instruments for 31 thousand dollars to match that today, instead, a series goes for less than half of that. | ||
| flaxattack
Senior Member Username: flaxattack Post Number: 1487 Registered: 4-2004 |
i hope the powers dont read this chrikee,..... alembic announces 125% increase! order now! lmao | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1582 Registered: 3-2004 |
Jason - I guess I just didn't/don't interpret it the same way that you do. Your numbers don't line up with the "facts" I understand for the starting salary of a particular job with which I am familiar. I'd say also that the street price of a new Spoiler was under $1000 in the mid 80s, again from personal experience. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not complaining about Alembic prices, I just don't think your numbers accurately portray the reality. Maybe attending a recent town meeting where the board was playing with numbers to make a $4.5M land purchase at an average annual cost of about $300/household seem like it would save us money has made me sensitive to these sorts of semantics. | ||
| hodge
Junior Username: hodge Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2002 |
an alembic instrument in the hand , is priceless, there are allway,s two in the bush.. | ||
| hodge
Junior Username: hodge Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2002 |
or , sorry, on ebay.... | ||
| 88persuader
Advanced Member Username: 88persuader Post Number: 302 Registered: 5-2004 |
God ... if they keep raising their prices I'll sell my SC in a few year and pay off my mortgage! ...lol The best basses in the world? Yes I think so! But a 125% increase? You have to be kidding! | ||
| jason
Moderator Username: jason Post Number: 58 Registered: 1-2007 |
Keep whining and it will be 126%. Now, get back to slave pens before I have the lionesses eat you all. | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 1334 Registered: 2-2006 |
I hope that's TIC! |
