| Author | Message | ||
| paul_boulet
Junior Username: paul_boulet Post Number: 28 Registered: 8-2002 |
Here’s a request for some opinions so anyone and everyone please chime in! I personally am a real big fan of extra long scale length. All of the basses I’ve ordered custom I’ve had made to 36” scale. My appreciation for long scale basses came from the fact that I can hear such a distinct sound difference. Short scales seem to possess a very flat, dull sound to me that lack a dynamic richness that I hear in longer scale basses. I’ll use the comparison to various kinds of pianos. Big grand pianos have longer scale and larger sound boards, providing more mass to vibrate creating more sound. So, an upright piano with a short scale and smaller sound board still sounds good but cannot compare it to the richness of a full concert grand. Likewise, big full contra/double basses sound fuller than a ¼ scale equivalent, etc. Short scale basses are nice because the small scale makes it more comfortable and it plays much easier. I would think that for slap playing that the percussive nature of the sound over dominates the actual pitch to the point where a fuller range of overtones wouldn’t matter much (BTW: I’m not a slap player at all). Do any of you agree? Disagree? Do any of the sound engineers around here have any insight into the exact physics of this observation? -Paul (Leo) | ||
| valvil
Moderator Username: valvil Post Number: 154 Registered: 7-2002 |
This is an old argument, and one I could rant on forever...but to spare you the rant, I'll just say that I totally agree with you. Valentino | ||
| tylere
New Username: tylere Post Number: 8 Registered: 7-2003 |
Well, there might be some point to that, but I've found build quality to be more important than the scale length. Of course, if we're talking about Alembic, that isn't much of an issue, is it? That said, I've never known for a super long scale to help that much, and I frankly don't think it's worth the marked decrease in playability. Also, I'm not even that sure that short or medium scale basses are inferior sounding. He put down some of the most "ballsey", hard rocking bass playing ever with Gov't Mule in the mid '90s, that was all on a short scale Gibson. Okay, enought rambling out of me! | ||
| thebass
Junior Username: thebass Post Number: 45 Registered: 3-2003 |
The better playablity is definitely an argument for a short/medium scale bass. I also found that the sound of the medium scale basses I've played is more percussive and has a shorter sustain than my standard long scale (34") basses. I like this a lot for slapping. I guess Mark King and Stanley Clarke also like the medium scale basses because of their percussive sound. (not that my bass playing skills could be compared with theirs :-) | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 496 Registered: 9-2002 |
Werner-Werner... don't be toooooo modest. I DO liked your demo's on your website. BTW how did you liked my name-proposals? Paul the bad one | ||
| thebass
Junior Username: thebass Post Number: 46 Registered: 3-2003 |
Hi Paul, thanks Paul. I like your proposal of "naked foot in white sand" for the 2nd one. Please keep me updated when you have your next gig near the german border. I also like to give positive feedback. | ||
| yahyabb
New Username: yahyabb Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2002 |
-Paul (Leo) I think you have to look at the entire neck. Scale length, finger-board material, neck woods and laminates are all factors. The location of pickups is important. I'll stay at 35" scale length. Yahya | ||
| paul_boulet
Junior Username: paul_boulet Post Number: 29 Registered: 8-2002 |
I believe that we are all in agreement here that the total makeup of the instrument makes a big difference. After all, this is the Alembic Club, not the cheap, crap, plywood, bargain-basement, bolt-on, w/exterior house paint finish, Club. I’m isolating one particular design aspect that is an option for any bass, but a definite consideration for having one made to order. My argument here is simply; longer scale = better sound because; more sting makes more and richer overtones. Therefore, I play longer scale – though the difference between 36” & 35” is certainly splitting hairs at that point. So why play 35” as apposed to 19” as was mentioned in another post? I’d just like to hear other’s conclusions as why pick side of the spectrum over the other. I hope that clarifies the position… Paul (Leo) | ||
| eugen
Junior Username: eugen Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hello of friends, the sound comes from the fingers, main thing Alembic!!!! Eugen: Short Scale User | ||
| fretlessoldguy
New Username: fretlessoldguy Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hi, I'm a new Alembic owner, and very happy about it. I've been playing electric and stand-up bass for 40 years and I have played just about all of the scale lengths. It's taken me this long to arrive at the threshold of the Alembic. I agree with all of the observations about longer scale length equals superior tone. But, you can still get great tone with the 34" scale. I really don't like the shorter (30, 32) scale length, the strings feel loose like noodles, sustain is lacking, and the tone is often flabby. I'm speaking about scale length here, not instrument makers. On the other hand, a 36" scale can get to be a stretch down in the lower positions. One needs to incorporate upright and electric bass left hand technique to achieve endurance. And good strings are harder to find. One point to add for the speed meisters out there. The greater string tension of a longer scale (35" is my favorite) also means a faster note recovery, thus faster playing and crisper rhythmic accents if that's desired. Another point is that the longer scale instrument will usually yield more sustain since more tension means more stored energy. Sustain is good, especially for fretless. That said. My Europa is a 34" scale length, sounds great, and I like the conveinience of using just about any string I desire. That Fretless Old Guy | ||
| bob
Member Username: bob Post Number: 63 Registered: 11-2002 |
Welcome to the club, Fretless. Normally, one or more of the Pauls handle the greeting (and if you haven't already noticed, you'll be pestered for pictures of your Europa). But given that (a) I simply can't deal with frets at all, and we seem to be in the minority, (b) you've only got a few years on me (maybe I should be the "fretless old bald guy", unless you've got that covered as well?), and (c) I'm within a few weeks - really - of getting my first Alembic... It's nice to see you here. Your comments are very astute, to the point, and just happen to coincide with mine - I went for a 35, and was strongly influenced by available strings. I hope we'll hear more from you. For one thing, I'd be interested to hear you elaborate a bit on the apparent contradiction between "note recovery" and sustain. I understand that energy storage will be better with more tension, resulting in better sustain, but maybe it would help to have a better definition of what you mean by note recovery? Seems like damping is more likely to be a bigger factor in articulation, and I just don't quite understand how tension factors into this (given that we agree it increases sustain). Maybe the extra tension helps to clarify the attack (probably) and hence definition, but i'd like to better understand your thinking here. -Bob | ||
| fretlessoldguy
New Username: fretlessoldguy Post Number: 2 Registered: 7-2003 |
Bob, Yeah, I've got bald covered too. This is off subject but I am responding to a request for clarification from within this thread. This relates to scale length in that shorter scale length is usually equivilent to lower string tension and vise versa. Regarding "String recovery"; This is just personal opinions and empirical evidence gathered over many years of playing and thinking about electric bass. I don't have an engineering degree so feel free to contribute more valid scientific arguments. To put it simply, I think I can play faster on higher tension strings. Now you don't have to read the rest of this posting. You asked for an elaboration so here it is. In general, higher tension strings are also higher mass strings given an equal scale length. However a low tension string on a short scale bass will have even lower tension than design specifications indicate. Newton said, "That which is in motion, tends to remain in motion." er, approximately. When a string is plucked, kinetic energy is imparted into that string and it is set in motion. So sustain is Newtonian motion effected by various dampening factors such as body resonance (transduction of energy), friction of the string against the fingers and fingerboard. Acoustic coupling, string characteristics, etc. "String recovery" is the time it takes the string to stop motion and reinstate motion for a new note, when the new note and the old note are played on the same string, such as an ostinato. If the new note is on another string this is less important but is still a factor in speed due to rise time (the amount of time it takes a string to propagate a frequency along it entire length and to stabilize) of a plucked note. When a new note is plucked the finger first touches and dampens the string, at this time the string continues to move with random harmonics and vibrations moving up and down the string, because some of the previous energy is still effecting the string. Sort of like waves shloshing around in a small pool. Then, within milliseconds, the plucking finger continues to move across the string imparting enervating energy to create the new note. It is at this time that "String recovery" is important. The string must be able to be rapidly dampened and the pluck impulse of the new note must be converted into motion (percussive impulse and then sustain). I belive that the inertia of a string with higher tension characteristics is easyer to control than one with "floppy" characteristics. Just as a firm spring is easyer to control than a Slinky. It may take more countering energy (dampening effort) to bring the higher tension string under control (dampened) but it will occur in less time. The lower tension string will still be jiggling with random harmonics milliseconds after the higher tension string has been fully dampend, or a new note has been plucked. I belive this is due to the high tension string having more effective induction with enervating and dampening forces. A lower tension string will continue to vibrate along its length for a longer period even though being dampened because its motion is less powerfully inducted (linked) to the dampening force. Conversely, when the lower tension string is enervated, this same inferior induction creates a longer rise time, and more unstable harmonics until the string settles into a regular oscillation for the note to propigate. The important idea is that to play very quickly the string needs to minimize the time that random oscillations between notes occur and enable the string to respond to the players plucking impulse rapidly. Ramping up the new note frequency without combining latent energy left over from the prior note. Of course there are aways exceptions. The newer slap technique using lighter gauge strings completly obviates this entire argument because the slap technique is so dynamic that the percussive impulse of a thumb hit or a pop overwhelms latent vibrations. Best regards, and I look forward to your superior argument. Fretless (bald) Old Guy | ||
| jet_powers
Junior Username: jet_powers Post Number: 34 Registered: 2-2003 |
My hat's off to you fretless guys. I started with fretless and played them exclusively for the first five or six years of my bass playing life. I still have my '78 Fender P-Bass fretless. It rarely sees the light of day anymore but am glad to hear there are people carrying on the tradition. Fretless (bald) Old Guy: No engineering degree, huh? You could have fooled me. I too, look forward to hearing a superior argument. I'm not sure there is one.... Cheers, John Paul | ||
| dnburgess
Member Username: dnburgess Post Number: 53 Registered: 1-2003 |
Thanks for the exposition, Fretless Old Guy. I am still not 100% clear on the interaction of string length, tension and finger pressure at the fret. The fact that a longer string must be at higher tension to produce the same pitch as a shorter string seems clear enough. That would seem to imply that an infinitely long string would have to be at infinite tension. Wouldn't it be impossible to fret a string at infinite tension? Hmmm - time to dig out the old physics text books. | ||
| bob
Member Username: bob Post Number: 64 Registered: 11-2002 |
Fretless, Okay, how about Fretless Old *Bearded* Bald Guy? (and just to save some time, the beard has to have quite a bit of grey). Okay, I'm off topic too, but it happens here with surprising frequency... and we're among friends. I certainly don't have a "superior argument" (good one, that), and I'm truly grateful for your elaboration. it's very much in line with what I was thinking, that higher tension helps you start the new note more clearly, though I really hadn't thought through what that meant about ending the old one. I have a pretty fair understanding of string vibrations, but you've given me some new things to think through - and unfortunately I'm so swamped with work right now that I haven't even played in about three days. When I get a little more time, I want to read through this again, and experiment a little. Good stuff, thanks. | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 501 Registered: 9-2002 |
Hello Brothers! Welcome Fretlessoldguy (I finally understood that it is Fretless "old" guy and NOT Fretles "sold" guy. My mind is not always follwoing my english, that's why I talk toomuch..LOL). Welcome to our club, Paul the good one (or the other one) will come soon to start yelling with me "pictures-pictures-pictures". Pestering?? I dunno. I consider ourselves as the "Waldorf & Slater" of this club ;-) Fretless ...well that's one of my dreams to play once ...I simply LOVE the tone! Thanks for the clear explanation: from nopw on you can consider yourself as belonging to the "printable brothers" together with such famous brothers as Bob and Joey and Werner! However, I have a question that is merely linguistic. If you guys use the word "Dampening" or "dampened", is this word related to what I read in Amp-specs the "Damping" factor??? And than" on the SF-2 also is a "damping" control. Are all those things related or ...? Paul the bad one BTW: Bob it's good to hear from you again. I'm happy that your Rogue is almost there. Please keep me posted. And how''s the "cuisine" going? Tasty??? | ||
| adriaan
Junior Username: adriaan Post Number: 33 Registered: 6-2002 |
[.... I thought I had cancelled this one ... ah well...] (Message edited by adriaan on July 10, 2003) | ||
| adriaan
Junior Username: adriaan Post Number: 34 Registered: 6-2002 |
Great discussion! When my Epic was converted to fretless, I first put on an old set of Ken Smith Slick Wounds (44-105?) which are roundwounds ground to flatwounds. They were really high-tension, and not really nice on my fingers. They sounded dull, and for some reason also harmonically off. Response to touch was probably okay, due to the high tension, can't really remember. They were soon replaced by a set of the fabulous Thomastik Infeld Jazz Flats (44-106). These are low-tension, and though they feel floppy, they sound well focused and they respond to the touch really well. Conclusion: don't underestimate the effect of the string. As to the issue of the infinite string, my guess is it would 'vibrate' at 0 Hz. You need a finite length of vibrating mass to get a fundamental frequency. Organ pipes can be closed at both ends or open at the long end (IIRC that halves the frequency) but they can't be open at both ends -which would be a virtually infinite organ pipe. Strings must be 'closed' at both ends, period. | ||
| fretlessoldguy
New Username: fretlessoldguy Post Number: 3 Registered: 7-2003 |
Paul, Re: dampening and dampened In this case, the conversation is focused on scale length and string characteristics, thus these two derivations of the verb, to "damp" meaning to check (cancel) or reduce the energy therein refer to canceling or reducing the motion of the bass string. Your question is well founded however, as the words "dampen, dampening, dampened" are used in many processes both mechanical and electrial. For example: Automotive shock absorbers are dampeners. Your bass speakers require dampening in order to prevent self destruction. The air volume in the enclosure acts as a dampener in both phases of speaker motion. Your power amplifier also has a dampening function when it reverses phase and limits the excursion of speaker motion. Without dampening, your speakers would be attempting to move beyond the normal range of motion as designed by the engineers (in the surround, voice coil, spider, and air volume) and the speaker would not last long. If fact this is why low powered amplifiers blow more speakers than higher powered amps due to poor control of speaker motion . Of course, if I had hair I would want it dampened before I went out on an excursion. Yes, the English language is full of exceptions and double meanings. Fretless Old Guy | ||
| dnburgess
Member Username: dnburgess Post Number: 58 Registered: 1-2003 |
Paul re amplifier damping factors. "Damping is the ability of a power amplifier to control loudspeaker motion. It's measured in Damping Factor, which is load impedance divided by amplifier output impedance." There is an excellent discussion at: http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/amps/damping%20factor.pdf David B. | ||
| oggydoggy
Junior Username: oggydoggy Post Number: 12 Registered: 3-2003 |
Paul. I own an Essence 34'scale and a Stanley Clarke 30'scale. I like my SC bass the most, to me it sounds better in every possible way. I think the sound of any bass no matter how long or short depends on quality of workmanship and what kind of electronics it has. To me the SC sounds superior (possibly because of the electronics.) or the type of wood it is constructed of. Later -ED | ||
| tsarter
New Username: tsarter Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hi Paul, It's been a long time. Hope all is well with you. Funny, but a year or two ago I would have totally agreed with you. These days I seem to prefer short scale basses in just about every way ( including my Alembic). Think I own 5 of them. I may even be selling my longest scale - my 36" David King Headless 5 ( http://www.sitesolid.com/tsarter/Kingbass ) Take care, Tim |
