| Author | Message | ||
| pauldo
Member Username: pauldo Post Number: 59 Registered: 6-2006 |
We all should be familiar with the infamous 'spider' bass of the OX's but when and which Alembic did he start with? What brought his attention to Alembic in the first place? just curious..... | ||
| kungfusheriff
Senior Member Username: kungfusheriff Post Number: 711 Registered: 8-2003 |
As I heard the story, he found a secondhand Series 1 in a guitar shop around '74, and promptly ordered six customs. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 6820 Registered: 5-2002 |
According to Oliver, the Zebrawood four string Series I pictured on this page was his first Alembic. | ||
| senmen
Senior Member Username: senmen Post Number: 771 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hi Guys, as Dave already mentioned: yep, it is the Zebrawood. Oliver (Spyderman)  | ||
| goop
New Username: goop Post Number: 2 Registered: 7-2008 |
You guys probably are well familiar with this excellent resource site. If not, enjoy. Colin http://www.thewho.net/whotabs/equipment/bass/equip-entwistlegear.html | ||
| jedisan
Junior Username: jedisan Post Number: 25 Registered: 3-2008 |
Great site! I had never really had a good look at John's stuff. I was most surprised at seeing the Lakland Fenderbird prototype. Makes you wonder if it would have gone into production if John had not passed. | ||
| white_cloud
Senior Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 407 Registered: 11-2007 |
One of the pivotal moments of my bass playing infancy was at the first (and best) live aid. I will never forget when Entwhistle sauntered onstage with THE WHO, strapped on his Alembic and hit three or four notes nochanlantly - the ABSOLUTE KILLER tone was staggering! I was very sad when John switched to Warwick some time later. RIP. | ||
| hieronymous
Advanced Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 338 Registered: 1-2005 |
But do you remember when his bass wasn't working and the two stupid VJs were talking trying to fill up air time, they finally got a bass working and started and the VJs wouldn't shut up! I forget the story - someone help me out! Something was wrong with the bass or the power supply so that bass was exiled to a Hard Rock Cafe... | ||
| senmen
Senior Member Username: senmen Post Number: 772 Registered: 7-2003 |
Yep, Johns Spyder No.1 is in the hands of the HRC like many many of his other basses. Oliver (Spyderman) | ||
| pauldo
Member Username: pauldo Post Number: 60 Registered: 6-2006 |
John I agree with your statement: "I was very sad when John switched to Warwick some time later." It was about that same time when he really got into alot of processing of his tone and became a "bass guitarist" instead of a "bass player". For me Quadrophenia and the Ox's bass playing on it changed my life for ever. I saw him in 1996 on his Left For Dead tour and was greatly dissappointed to not be able to actually hear his 'buzzard' bass because it was just a roaring over processed sound. It might have worked for him in a stadium situation but certainly not a small venue like Shank Hall in Milwaukee. :-( | ||
| elwoodblue
Senior Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 496 Registered: 6-2002 |
Harry, I think your right in your recollection,the power supply went out,or was it the 5 pin cord?... and the show had to go on...so no more live alembic performances for JAE, cheers | ||
| dfung60
Advanced Member Username: dfung60 Post Number: 345 Registered: 5-2002 |
Did anybody out there watch the VH-1 Rock Honors show honoring The Who? It premiered last Thursday (7/17). There was a very entertaining clip of John that I hadn't seen before. It looks like he's in the warmup room with a Buzzard on and the camera shooting mostly at his back. He turns and says "this is the bass player" and plays a little figure, then flips a couple of switches on his rig and says "and THIS is the Bass Guitarist" and unleashes a snarling burst of Entwistle. Yes, I too think the later Entwistle years were suffering from overprocessed tone. The Quadrophenia sound is amazing, both on the original album (it sounds like this was in the Thunderbird years to me) and on the soundtrack album (mostly the same tracks, but it sounds like the bass lines were rerecorded, this time sounding like an Alembic). Pete Townshend is my favorite artist, period. The VH-1 show was definitely not a memorable Who performance unfortunately, not really measuring up to the last time they were on tour a couple of years ago. I think Pino Palladino is a great bassist, but his playing with The Who seems particularly flat and uninspired. I never had a chance to see the "real" Who with Moon live. The first time I saw them was with Kenney Jones (it seems like it must have been the first Farewell tour; Townshend was playing the Schecter Teles in that show and it seemed like the set list was heavily derived from Who Are You?), and that started the bad precedent of personality-less substitute players. In the VH-1 Honors show, there were covers by Foo Fighters and Pearl Jam among others which were unusually straight covers. Even though Jeff Ament was staying very close to the recorded tracks, I think any Who fan would rather hear somebody like that handling the bass lines over Pino. VH-1 will repeat this show ad naseum over the next month, but if you can't get it, I can blast the Entwistle clip online. David Fung | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 641 Registered: 11-2003 |
I must agree with David reference the VH-1 show and the post-John Who. Pino's a great player, but he's not John. I watched the VH-1 honors and cam away mightily unimpressed. This is not to cast aspersion on Pino - he's a great player, with chops I wish I had - it's just to say that John is a hard act to follow. For me, when John died, so did The Who. Alan | ||
| pauldo
Member Username: pauldo Post Number: 61 Registered: 6-2006 |
It is now the Daltrey/ Townshend Show. They are still great together but they certainly are NOT The Who. Pete's skills as a songwriter are unmatched. | ||
| white_cloud
Senior Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 408 Registered: 11-2007 |
Well, for me THE Who was Entwhistle and Moon! I love Roger and Pete ( such a incredible creative driving force - but not a great musician!) but the musical virtuosity certainly came from The Ox and the Loon! I think (but I may be wrong) that shortly prior to taking the stage at Live Aid John's tech had trouble with last minute, unexpected, adjustments to the neck - it had gone a bit loco! John was distinctly unimpressed with any neck that would not behave to his liking! I think that this, along with the pin problem, led to that particular instruments demise. He should have gave me a call - I would have disposed of it, he he  John. | ||
| aquaman
Member Username: aquaman Post Number: 62 Registered: 9-2006 |
Was there any responsee from Alembic mothership to JE's Exploiter failure at Live Aid? JE was a huge fan/user of Alembics and his decision not to use them on stage after the "musicous interruptus" was likely not well received. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 1431 Registered: 10-2003 |
I had occasion to chat with him online once, and asked about this. He said the main reason that he went away from Alembic was the neck-stability issue (exacerbated by that extremely low action he liked) and the desire for what graphite had to offer. I think the Live Aid incident just helped nudge that dissatisfaction along.. John | ||
| elwoodblue
Senior Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 497 Registered: 6-2002 |
John , thanks for sharing...it's nice to hear things straight from the Ox's mouth ( or fingertips as online chats go). | ||
| elwoodblue
Senior Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 498 Registered: 6-2002 |
Anyone in the seattle area with a good reel to reel? I have an interview with him that should be digitized and shared if it has any new info in it. If there's not, I'll buy a good R to R and take on the task myself. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3170 Registered: 7-2004 |
As I recall, in the very early days of Alembic, when they still worked out of a barn and before they started manufacturing their own instruments, the Who's manager used to regularly show up with a bag full of guitar parts that Townsend had smashed so that Alembic could put it all back together. Thus, there was a very early Who/Alembic connection. Bill, tgo | ||
| willie
Member Username: willie Post Number: 85 Registered: 11-2003 |
I thought the problem with John's bass at Live Aid had to with a battery he had put in backwards or something like that, not the neck but I could be wrong. I think there is a thread about it here somehere | ||
| hieronymous
Advanced Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 340 Registered: 1-2005 |
There's some discussion of it here! Like many legends, the details aren't crystal clear, and there are multiple views of the same incident, Rashomon style... | ||
| dfung60
Advanced Member Username: dfung60 Post Number: 346 Registered: 5-2002 |
Here's the story, straight from John. It's in the August 1989 issue of Guitar Player (before Bass Player spun out): http://www.thewho.net/whotabs/equipment/bass/equip-entwistlegear-74-85.html You'll find the specific quote if you search the page for "Live Aid". So, the problem was both the neck/action sensitivity and the 5-pin jack incompatibility. The action that he preferred was really unbelievable. Entwistle had Modulus build necks that were incorporated into some of his Alembic Exploiters, then later had Modulus build graphite-necked Buzzard clones. I'm close with Geoff Gould who was running the place at the time, and regularly visited the Modulus factory in San Francisco. Entwistle had sent Modulus one of the prototype Warwick Buzzards (it had a special inlay in the neck to that effect), which was in wenge and zebrawood. I'm quite fond of Warwicks from that period (late 80's to about 1990) and the workmanship on this one was quite extraordinary. It was sitting on a stand in Geoff's office, and I asked if I could play it. I did and immediately thought that the action was messed up as it was in tune but buzzed pretty much everywhere on the neck. Geoff told me that this was actually in exactly the action that Entwistle played them in and that they were to duplicate the action exactly (I think they left it with Modulus while Entwistle was passing through town). I never met the bass tech (he's quite famous and his name is totally escaping me right now), but I was told that he was constantly tweaking action on the wood necked basses through a show as humidity and temperature changes messed up the action (and that the Warwicks were worse than the Alembics, again not a suprise given the oil finish). David Fung | ||
| white_cloud
Senior Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 409 Registered: 11-2007 |
Yes Warwicks were of a very high quality from the early 80's up until around 90/91 - then it was all down hill after their subsequent change of location/factory. Then of course the "rockbass" cheap models raised their ugly head and sealed Warwick's fate for me as a top luthier! David, Im really not sure that an oil finish would leave an instrument more vulnerable to moisture absortion than lacquer or any other type of finish. Im a furniture maker and use oils a lot - always seems to do a great job of sealing end grain off from moisture to me! The OX may have loved his graphite necks/instruments latterly but not one of them ever sounded anywhere near as good as his wooden Alembics for me - just my opinion! His action seemed to be ridiculously low to me, when he performed during the latter part of his life his tone was marred by fret buzz all over his bass necks. I didnt like it. John. | ||
| funkyjazzjunky
Intermediate Member Username: funkyjazzjunky Post Number: 124 Registered: 5-2007 |
John, Will the hand sliding up and down the neck wear off an oil finish over time? Won't that make the neck susceptible to moisture? | ||
| senmen
Senior Member Username: senmen Post Number: 777 Registered: 7-2003 |
David, Guys, well that low action is the secret of Johns playing and tone. And as for his playing style you have to forget everything you know about classic bass playing. Remember, even when he played "normally" with his fingers, he always brought the strings to vertical movement, not horizontally. For this and to play fast you need that low action. If you try to rise the action this playing really gets hard and you loose much of the treble, Johns basses were playable, but not in the classic way. It is the same with mine. Also people told me that they cannot play with Tears for John due to the low action and the buzzing that happens when playing in normal fingerstyle. As for the tone: Yes, also for me, Alembic was and is the classic Entwistle tone. The graphite basses are too neutral in sound and you canīt get that piano highs that you can get with an Alembic. Anyone who is interested in a closer description of Johns playing style send me an email. I am happy to help you with this. Oliver (Spyderman) | ||
| white_cloud
Senior Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 417 Registered: 11-2007 |
Funkjazzzunky, my (limited) understanding of oil is that it penetrates very deeply into wood and therefore would never entirely "wear off". Put simply, it isnt just a finish that sits on the surface - it is ingested very deeply (depending on what type of wood was used for the neck of course!)Lacquer/varnishes on the other hand do not absorb deeply into wood but form a surface finish! Also, wood takes very very little moisture in along the grain - minimal really! The end grain is where its at in this respect - it is so important to seal it properly! A lot of people believe that when a piece of timber, through time, is harvested, dried then machined that it is "dead" but that is not the case. Timber is a living thing that is constantly moving/changing, adapting to its environment, for many years. For furniture makers the consideration that goes into timber movement is possibly the biggest concern. If your design does not allow for movement then you will end up with cracks, checks and even a broken cabinet/piece! Im not a guitar maker but I am assuming that all of the above is the very reason all wooden necks must have truss rods fitted! Oil is a very durable & deep pentrating wood finish but offers less surface protection than other finishes John. | ||
| bigbadbill
Senior Member Username: bigbadbill Post Number: 434 Registered: 10-2003 |
I like John's Alembic sound best by far, but I probably prefer his Warwicks and Statii to his Fender/TBird sounds. However I am most definitely a "bass guitarist", as I finally realised recently. Most of my time spent eq-ing my basses is about getting as much treble (though not tweeter-treble as I hate them!) and as little bass (whilst still making it workeable)as possible. Me and Lemmy both I guess. As for the fretbuzz, I love it! I never wanted a big round sound, I want a snarly, aggressive, twangy tone. I've had this discussion with Chris May at Overwater before now who has insisted my action is too low (it's much higher than John's). It's that way because I like how it feels and how it sounds. If I have what most would term a medium action I just don't like the way it sounds, never mind plays. | ||
| dfung60
Advanced Member Username: dfung60 Post Number: 347 Registered: 5-2002 |
Olivier - Thanks for your note. When you say Entwistle played "vertically", do you mean with the string motion parallel to the fretboard or perpendicularly (I can't see how the latter would work at all)? I see that he regularly uses a right hand tapping motion which creates perpendicular vibration when he wants to do something really snarly, but there are also a lot of times when it at least looks like a fairly normal right-hand style. He has an amazingly dynamic and aggressive sound, but with that sort of action, must by playing relatively lightly and precisely to control the buzz. Is there a left-hand fretting pressure/muting thing happening when he's playing "normal" lines? Or is the change in tone all coming from right-hand modulation? David Fung | ||
| tbrannon
Senior Member Username: tbrannon Post Number: 834 Registered: 11-2004 |
I'll second David's question- I'm quite interested in hearing more if you have the time Oliver. Toby | ||
| senmen
Senior Member Username: senmen Post Number: 778 Registered: 7-2003 |
David, Toby, yes and right. it is no tapping but more a touch and let go. The name typewriter says it very well. Touch the strings lightly as if you press down a typewriter and mmediately after hitting the string release it again. It is a bit like doing slapping with your thumb but only with your fingertips. You can use it with one finger or with all four fingers at the end of the fingerboard. But also John used this with a normal fingerstyle playing. If you look closely at his playing you will notice that also then he has the tapewriter motion than the normal plugging of the string. This combined with the low action you really get fast and get that strong overtones. Due to this you have to develop a light touch and that is also what John did. There was no power in his playing, it was the gentle and most controlled touch. And David, you are right: of course a strongt left hand pressure/muting combined with many open string playing. Look closely at his playing. You will see that he buildt up walks and licks combined with fretted and open strings, constantly. Sorry guys, it is really hard to explain without showing. Any questions, plse ask. Oliver (Spyderman) | ||
| 0vid
Intermediate Member Username: 0vid Post Number: 151 Registered: 4-2003 |
Back to the OP's question: some anecdotes re: early Alembics are here: http://www.amazon.com/Bass-Culture-Entwistle-Guitar-Collection/dp/1860745938 | ||
| garethnh
Junior Username: garethnh Post Number: 18 Registered: 5-2008 |
John's first Alembic was purchased from Fred Walecki whilst on holiday in L.A, on the way back from Hawaii around '74. From the horses's (or Ox's!) mouth - 'I could never stand being away from a bass for longer than two weeks. When I got this one home I had it rewired to stereo by Peter Cook. He brought it to a Who rehearsal when he'd finished. I plugged it in - and it blew my mind. I jetted to San Francisco three days before the tour started and bought three more.' John sold his Spyder bass because of a wiring problem...I believe one of his tech's was responsible. He sold it '..as it's punishment for going wrong at Live Aid.' In his book 'Bass Culture' there is a picture of an Alembic Precision with a Modulus Graphite Neck and Kahler Tremelo...WOW, I'd like to get me a go of that! | ||
| bigbadbill
Senior Member Username: bigbadbill Post Number: 438 Registered: 10-2003 |
I seem to remember John once addressing his damping technique and saying that whenever anyone else tried playing his gear it was just a cacophony, simply because they couldn't damp like him. I'm so glad I got to see him (twice). I actually cried when I heard he'd died. | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 541 Registered: 11-2004 |
I am not an Ox fan but I did see the original Who lineup at Charlton Athletic Football ground in 74. I went with a mate who had a spare ticket..they were outstanding. There is a killer bass solo that someone posted on the forum with his graphite bass which shows that 'typewriter' technique. | ||
| danny_bryant
Member Username: danny_bryant Post Number: 65 Registered: 9-2007 |
The best tone from an Alembic player was John Entwistle. This had a lot to do with the ability to run in stereo and seperate the highs and lows.If im not mistaken, he was using the Sunn rig during his Alembic tenure. No one will ever be able to have that sound again. IMO the best that ever picked up the bass and my inspiration for playing. | ||
| senmen
Senior Member Username: senmen Post Number: 794 Registered: 7-2003 |
Danny, yes he did use Sunn poweramps and german made Stramp preamps. I own one of these since last week and the sound is awesome. Oliver (Spyderman) | ||
| s_wood
Advanced Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 277 Registered: 5-2002 |
Put me down as a charter member in the Ox Appreciation Society. The day I first heard "Quadrophenia" changed my musical life forever. Even though that album was recorded with a Gibson Thunderbird, JE's tone just kills. I very much prefer his Alembic tone live, though. There's no doubt that when JE switched from Alembic to Warwick his tone went to hell. | ||
| aquaman
Member Username: aquaman Post Number: 63 Registered: 9-2006 |
Speaking of Quadrophenia, the killer track is "The Real Me." Per Wikipedia, "The song features an impressive bass performance by John Entwistle. According to a 1996 interview with Entwistle by Goldmine Magazine, the bass part was recorded on the first take. Entwistle claimed he was "joking around" when he played the part, but the band loved it and used it in the final version." Just great. | ||
| pauldo
Member Username: pauldo Post Number: 62 Registered: 6-2006 |
Quadrophenia (The Real Me) in particular was certainly a light bulb moment for me and what I would eventually do with my musical career (I think I was playing bassoon in middle school at the time). The whole album is un-frickin-believable - Moon's drumming on it is Master work, the writing both lyrical and musical are out of this world - How did Pete manage to pen such magnificent work time and time again? The Who by Numbers is another all time favorite of mine - fabulous material- Dreaming From the Waist on Down is another one of Thunder Finger's finer moments. I could see him "joking around" with that one also. "Right - listen to this!" :-D | ||
| danny_bryant
Member Username: danny_bryant Post Number: 66 Registered: 9-2007 |
Oliver, You are the true JE buff. If I could only stumble accross that stuff in the US I could get a little of that tone myself. You rock!! | ||
| senmen
Senior Member Username: senmen Post Number: 795 Registered: 7-2003 |
Danny, thank you for your kind words. Well as with the Stramps it is really hard. I looked four years to find one and they are now 30+ years old... But I now have to find two old Sunn Coliseum Slaves. If anyone knows some around in great condition plse let me know. Oliver (Spyderman) | ||
| jeramaya
New Username: jeramaya Post Number: 3 Registered: 7-2008 |
Can anybody tell me specific recordings by the Who that JE played Alembic basses on? I have a couple of his solo albums, but I'm unsure about the Who recordings, even after looking at that link with his equipment listed. Thanks! PS. Right now I'm beyond being in love with "Live at Leeds" and I've moved into some other deep feeling toward that one (knowing that it's not an Alembic, of course). It's so incredible. | ||
| senmen
Senior Member Username: senmen Post Number: 797 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hi Jeramaya, of course. Here you are: the only solo album recorded with Alembics was the Too Late The Hero Album As for WHO albums: parts of Who By Numbers, parts of Who Are You, completely Face Dances and Itīs Hard John got his first Alembic, a Series 1, in 1975 and played them until around 1985, when he switched to Warwick. If you want to have more details, let me know. Oliver (Spyderman) | ||
| jeramaya
New Username: jeramaya Post Number: 4 Registered: 7-2008 |
Thanks Oliver! I'm sure you can tell which songs the Alembic is played on for those albums you listed as "parts of." Believe it or not, I have not heard all of Who By Numbers or Who are You, so I'll have to put those on my short list. I'm skeptical about those last two Who albums, though (hehe)...Jeramaya | ||
| garethnh
Junior Username: garethnh Post Number: 20 Registered: 5-2008 |
You'd be surprised...Face Dances has some really, really good stuff on it, and of course contains JAE's typically fantastic bass lines. You Better You Bet, Cache Cache, You, Quiet One... all belters! | ||
| tomhug
Junior Username: tomhug Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2008 |
Although clearly "Who are You" and "Who by numbers" are IMHO more potent and coherent offerings, "Face Dances" and "It's Hard" have a lot to offer, especially if you're interest is around JE's tone and playing. "How can you do it alone?" in particular has that unique Alembic/JE sparkle and drive. "You" (on Face Dances) has some truly filthy (in a good way) Alembic tone. JE, "Emminence Front", and "The Kids are Allright" movie were largely the reasons I plunked down the small fortune (to me at the time anyway) for that used Series 1 way back in the 80's. Tom | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 1439 Registered: 10-2003 |
John's tone on "The Kids are Allright" is mostly responsible for me having 811952 built as well. John | ||
| garethnh
Junior Username: garethnh Post Number: 21 Registered: 5-2008 |
Yep, I quite agree Tom. WBN and WAY are probably superior albums not only for the songs, but WBN especially is a master class in rock drumming (Keith was a bit lost by the time of WAY,unfortunately).'Dreaming From The Waist' has to be one of the greatest Who performances on vinyl and live ever. But as you rightly say, those last two Who albums aren't the 'albatrosses' many think they are. Jeramaya, if you can, get hold of the remixed 'Who By Numbers' there are cracking live versions of songs on there too. (Message edited by garethnh on August 05, 2008) | ||
| s_wood
Advanced Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 278 Registered: 5-2002 |
If you are a fan of the Ox you absolutely MUST get a copy of the "The Kids Are Alright Special Edition" DVD. The Special Edition has a feature called "Ox Cam" which allows you to use select camera angles that at are focused on John. You can also isolate his audio track! By doing that, you can really get a sense of how wonderful and utterly unique his technique and overall concept were. No matter how great you think JE was, the "OX cam" will blow you away! | ||
| borisspyder
Junior Username: borisspyder Post Number: 31 Registered: 10-2004 |
Entwistle had a lot of complaints about wandering necks...but I wonder if that was only with his Spyders and not with the older Series One that he used prior. I played the Entwistle instrument that sat for a dozen years in a case at the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame and while the instrument was filthy and the strings were toast the action was still insanely low and it played really well. No neck movement there. |
