| Author | Message | ||
| rockbassist
Intermediate Member Username: rockbassist Post Number: 149 Registered: 8-2005 |
I just had an interesting converstion with another bass player. At first, he sounded reasonably intelligent. Then he asked me to sell him my Epic 5 String. When he offered me $900 for it I laughed. I asked him to double that offer and I would consider it. He then went on to tell me that for $1,800 he could buy a Sadowsky which is in his opinion is much better than any Alembic ever made. He also told me that Epics and Excels are basically the Alembic equivalent of Made in Mexico Fenders. Needless to say, I quickly ended the conversation. (Message edited by rockbassist on August 26, 2008) | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 1467 Registered: 10-2003 |
There are people who will never appreciate an Alembic. Then there are those who will. John | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3221 Registered: 7-2004 |
And the Dino and 308 GT were the Ferrari equivalent of MIM Fenders. Of course they still kicked butt on the top of the line Oldsmobile of the day. Bill, tgo | ||
| eligilam
Intermediate Member Username: eligilam Post Number: 127 Registered: 2-2006 |
I know Jason Newsted moved from Alembic to Sadowsky a while ago. It wasn't his little brother you were talking to, was it? The Mexican Fender analogy could hold water: A Series II is to an Epic what a Custom Shop Jazz is to a MIM Jazz. It's all a matter of algebra...as long as the equation MIM Fender = Epic is not what they were driving at, I could see their point. Personally, I say that 2(Custom Fender) = 3.2(Epic) = (Series II)/14 | ||
| funkyjazzjunky
Intermediate Member Username: funkyjazzjunky Post Number: 160 Registered: 5-2007 |
What bolt-on neck bass compares to a set-neck (or a neck-thru)? | ||
| eligilam
Intermediate Member Username: eligilam Post Number: 128 Registered: 2-2006 |
My opening exclusatory statement is: Nothing compares to Alembic. However, past that, some decent bolt-ons exist, such as Lakland, Bee, Ritter, F-Bass, and Wal. I'd probably take one of those over a Carvin neck-thru. | ||
| dfung60
Advanced Member Username: dfung60 Post Number: 358 Registered: 5-2002 |
It's hard to judge what the right bass is for any particular person. With all due respect to Roger Sadowsky (who seems like a very honest and nice guy), it's a little hard for me to understand exactly how he's developed that cachet that his brand has. His top line stuff (which I believe is much more than $1800) are pretty much kit guitars with a really good setup. Sadowsky doesn't manufacture the bodies, necks, electronics, or hardware. They also don't finish the instruments. They spec the parts or select off the shelf stuff, assemble it, then do a high end fret job. Customization is pretty limited, although I don't think that's a problem for his market. The pickups are Duncans and EMGs; even the famous Sadowsky active EQ has always been built by Aguilar Electronics. Nothing can be more important than setup and QC, but I think you're truly paying a huge premium for that in a Sadowsky vs. a Fender or Musicman. On the flip side, everything on all the Alembics is totally Alembic (with the exception of the tuning heads). All the woodwork is done by hand in the Santa Rosa factory (Sadowsky stuff is produced by a CNC contractor), as is the finishing. And everything is customizable even on Epics as well, so you can spec string spacing or scale length as a matter of course. Of course, that new Epic costs a lot more than $1800 new, and a lot more than a Sadowsky too. If you're ordering a 34" 4-string Epic then it's not clear that you're getting any value from the fact that you could have ordered it as a 33" scale with wide spacing, so perhaps that's money wasted. And ultimately, if the sound you want is like a J-Bass, then having Alembic pickups may not be a win either. But, I wonder whether a prospective Sadowsky owner would think of a USA Jazz or similar bass with a $400 setup... There are a number of boutique brands that are like this - I believe Lakland is basically the same sort of company, focusing on instrument designs and final assembly but farming out all the core manufacturing. David Fung | ||
| 82daion
Advanced Member Username: 82daion Post Number: 201 Registered: 5-2005 |
It's just a case of different strokes. While my Series I was entirely worth it to me, it has a number of features that might be entirely offputting to people used to other styles of basses. The critical statement here is "in his opinion." While it's certainly ill-founded, it would have been more productive to tactfully educate him than to walk away and then put him up for collective judgment on an Internet forum, in my opinion. I'm sure you would see similar responses to a similarly ill-founded statement on a Sadowsky forum if you replaced a few names and models. ;-) As an aside, as long as the neck joint is solidly constructed, it shouldn't matter terribly much as long as the rest of the bass is constructed to a similar standard. There are some times when I prefer the more "open," less compressed sound of a bass with a bolt-on neck, especially for slap playing. And I'd say that Ritter, etc. are a little better than "decent." ;-) | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 662 Registered: 11-2003 |
In response to David's excellent post, I'd offer the following. I own a Sadowsky Vintage 4, a relatively early Lakland 4-94, a '73 Fender Jazz Bass (modified with a Badass II Bridge, Seymour Duncan Pickups, Schaller Tuners, and a J-Retro preamp), and an '05 MIA Fender Jazz Bass Deluxe. I also own five Alembics (a SC Sig Std, a Dragon's Wing, two Essences, and a Europa; my Series II Entwistle replica is nearing completion). David is absolutely right when he states that it's difficult to judge which bass is the right one for any one person. This being said, I can say that the Sadowsky, Lakland, and my modified '73 Jazz are heads and shoulders above my MIA Jazz Deluxe. It's not that the MIA JD is a bad instrument, it isn't. Tonally, to me, the Sad, Lakie, and the '73 are just better. Now, is the Sad all that it's cracked up to be? Yep, it is, for me at least. Regardless of how it's made, it has that great Fender tone down in spades. The workmanship is flawless, the fretwork immaculate, and the setup perfect. IMHO, Roger took the Fender model and took it to the next level. And live, it just kills in the mix. I was a naysayer until I tried it (many had told me about this and I was skeptical). It really is all that, to me anyway. The Lakie, well let's just say it's like a Jazz Bass and a Stingray got together and decided to raise a family. The 4-94 is the result, and it's amazing. It's been my go to bass in the band I've been playing with recently, even more than my Alembics. To me, that instrument is definitely worth every penny. The coil tap on the the Lakie's MM-style bridge pickup should be standard on every MM product if you ask me - an extremely versatile feature IME. The neck is just about perfect for me too - thin in depth, and only slightly wider than a Jazz bass at the nut (I prefer Jazz style necks for the most part). Build quality is flawless, as is the finish (mine has a beautiful quilt maple top over an ash body). David's right - one is paying a large premium for a Sad or Lakie when compared to an Alembic given the construction of the instrument and the methods employed. In the end only the individual can judge whether it's worth it. For me it was. My Sad I bought new; my Lakie I bought used for about $1450. Best $1450 I've ever spent bass wise (with the exception of the Burkha King, of course). BTW, the pickups in my Lakie are Barts; the Sad has Sadowsky humcancellers. Lakland recently started making their own pickups and preamps as well, and that's what they use in their instruments for the most part now. Sadowsky has installed Nordstrands in some models too. To hear the my Sadowsky in action, go to www.kennyhuffman.net, and click on the link for the song/video "Magic Street." The tone was mixed more subdued than I liked (I'd have preferred more of a Geddy-like tone), but it really came through in the mix anyway. To hear the Lakie, go to http://www.myspace.com/arcticfoxvideos and click on the videos for Workhorse. Alan | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 571 Registered: 11-2004 |
rockbassist - maybe the guy was a wind up merchant looking for an argument or maybe he is just plain stupid in coming out with statements like that. Me being absolutely baised towards Alembic ever since I set eyes and ears on one over 30 years ago and owning one for 10 years the bass in front is an Alembic, nothing else compares at all..but as I said I am totally biased(more than a multi tube amplifier lol) | ||
| rockbassist
Intermediate Member Username: rockbassist Post Number: 150 Registered: 8-2005 |
I wasn't realy offended by his opinion that Sadowsky was better than Alembic. We all have our own opinions. I own some vintage Fenders that I love. I just didn't like the comparison to Made in Mexico Fenders. I understand the point that he was trying to make and I realize that Epics and Excels are at the lower end of the Alembic scale but I don't think it's fair to compare a $5,000 custom made bass to a $250 assembly line one. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3223 Registered: 7-2004 |
The comparison isn't that offensive to me IF you put things in perspective and realize that the "El Cheapo" Alembic is still a far better instrument than the "top-of-the-(assembly)line" Fender. Bill, tgo | ||
| white_cloud
Senior Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 451 Registered: 11-2007 |
Excuse me??? At least the Epic and Excel models are original designs (as all Alembics are)- last time I looked sadowsky basses were basically a high end fender jazz copy!!! Yes, they are very good..but a high end copy and a cheapo copy have one thing in common - they arent original! John. | ||
| dfung60
Advanced Member Username: dfung60 Post Number: 359 Registered: 5-2002 |
rockbassist - I agree that his comparison to the Mexi-Fenders was off the mark. The funny thing about this is that if he bought a Sadowsky for $1800, it would almost certainly not the the USA model, even if it were used. They have a Metro line which is assembled in Japan, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were sourcing parts from China, Korea or elsewhere in the Far East. The comparison to a Mexi-Fender is more apt for a Sadowsky Metro or Lakland Skyline. And, of course, Alembic doesn't have any equivalent to that. I don't know how big Sadowsky's shop is these days, but for many years it was just a small handful of people - maybe 5 highly-skilled builders. So, when you bought a Sadowsky bass (now, a NYC Sadowsky) there was more than a good chance that Roger was the last guy to tweak something before you got it. Every company goes through these phases of nurture and growth. I stopped by the Seymour Duncan plant in Santa Barbara just to see if I could get a tour once many years ago, around the time that the Antiquities were released. It's pretty impressive to see all the people winding bobbins out on the production floor, but the really impressive part is when we wandered back to their Custom Shop lab and you see Seymour himself matching coils with the two CS guys. This wasn't a special order for Jeff Beck - they were putting them in Antiquities boxes. I'm sure it's not like that now, but back then, I don't think you could do better than that. David Fung | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 663 Registered: 11-2003 |
To White Cloud: No, the designs aren't original as far as Sadowskys are concerned. But you have to remember that Roger began by modifying Fenders. His whole intent was to make them better, and as a Sadowsky and Fender Owner I'd say he's succeeded, in spades. In my view, guitar and bass manufacturers have been ripping off Leo Fender's designs to some extent ever since he developed the Telecaster, P-Bass, and Stratocaster. And that's not a bad thing in my view - it's says a lot that Leo got so much right that other builders would copy him, and the next generation is taking it further. Without Leo, there would arguably be no Alembic, so my hat's off to Leo, wherever he is. David, I've been to the Sadowsky shop - it occupies space on the fifth floor of a an older warehouse building right next to the Brooklyn Bridge in Brooklyn, NY (20 Jay Street). From what I could tell, it's not very big, and I didn't see everyone who worked there. I have, though, on occasion received emails from Roger, as well as responses from him directly on several online bass forums. If you go to sadowsky.com I think there's some info on there that speaks to who's working there now. Alan | ||
| longhorncat
Advanced Member Username: longhorncat Post Number: 263 Registered: 8-2005 |
Back to this guy's original offer. You really shouldn't have been offended. He was only a hundred dollars off current market price for an Epic 5. A quick look on eBay shows the last one listed sold for $1025. After eBay and paypal fees, that seller netted less than $950. As nice as our basses are, they don't really hold their value very well. (Message edited by longhorncat on August 27, 2008) | ||
| oujeebass
Intermediate Member Username: oujeebass Post Number: 127 Registered: 10-2002 |
I stand to say that my Epic is the best sub $1000 bass I have ever owned. It was all I could see spending for a bass cause I would have felt foolish to spend much more. The typical wholesale value given for any instrument is .25 of its original list price. So getting an Epic at the current prices also makes it a real value. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 1471 Registered: 10-2003 |
I had a problem with the push-pull volume pot on my Lakland Skyline (Korean) bass not long after I bought it. I sent a blind email to the company and ended up conversing quite a bit with Dan Lakin himself via email about bass stuff. He sent me a new pot and a fresh set of strings, and for about a year afterward I'd still get the occasional "how's the bass?" email from him. Those people/manufacturers are out there. Alembic and Lakland fill distinctly different niches with just a little overlap is all. Lakland and Sadowski, on the other hand, are aiming for pretty much the same target as far as I can tell.. John | ||
| rockbassist
Intermediate Member Username: rockbassist Post Number: 151 Registered: 8-2005 |
I have seen Epic 5 Strings selling for as much as $2,200 on ebay and 4 strings for as much as $1,600. I didn't say that I was offended by his offer. I was offended by him comparing Epics and Excels to Mexican made Fenders. To me, it would be like comparing a Mercedes to a Hyundai. He said that he had seen Sadowkys on ebay for $1,800. On that point, I have never been able to understand why basses such as Alembic, Sadowsky and other "boutique" basses never seem to hold their value. I love my Alembic even though it's only an Epic. I've always said that there is no such thing as the "wrong" bass. We should all play whatever makes us happy and satifies us as musicians. Thanks for all the responses. It does make for interesting conversation | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 6959 Registered: 5-2002 |
As to the "comparison", I would like to add the following to all the thoughtful comments made above. The same artisans that made Stanley Clarke's personal bass, made your bass. | ||
| 2400wattman
Senior Member Username: 2400wattman Post Number: 584 Registered: 11-2005 |
now if they could only make us play like Stanley! | ||
| jacko
Senior Member Username: jacko Post Number: 1874 Registered: 10-2002 |
And mine. And Jimmy Johnson's, and Gerry's guitar and Phil's bass and JAE's bass and JPJ's bass. And a whole bunch of really nice people on this forum's instruments. I feel privileged to keep such exalted company;-) Graeme | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 1922 Registered: 2-2006 |
I just want to play like Adam!  | ||
| alembic76407
Senior Member Username: alembic76407 Post Number: 574 Registered: 5-2002 |
Olie, your no slouch, your bass playing blows me away Sir David PS I was not paid to say that | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 1923 Registered: 2-2006 |
Thanks David, OO PS. Wait until after Tuesday to cash the check. | ||
| glocke
Senior Member Username: glocke Post Number: 429 Registered: 9-2002 |
From what Ive seen, even the lower models that Alembic offers have far superior fit, finish, and craftsmanship to not only mass produced guitars, but also to some of the higher end manufacturers. I had a fretless Elan that I sold for some stupid reason, and even that was a better bass than anything Ive seen in a music store before and since. I once knew a guy who tried telling me that his Carvin was better than any guitar Alembic ever made. Im sure Carvin makes some nice instruments, but better than Alembic? No way.... (Message edited by glocke on August 29, 2008) | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 1475 Registered: 10-2003 |
I've owned a couple of Carvin basses over the years, and they both played absolutely like butter. They sounded good as well, though obviously not nearly as versatile as an Alembic. They were both delightful instruments to play, but yes they came out of a machine and in that respect had no real personality of their own. To me, I think, the thing that really makes an Alembic the desireable instrument that it is, is the ability to dial-in an infinite range of timbres (many very unuseable until I got my brain around the "filters" concept) without having to carry a slew of instruments to the studio or gig. And of course it has the absolute best shiny-bright roundwounds sound of any bass I've played.. Another thing to consider would be that every other instrument I've played naturally compresses the signal as I play harder, whereas the Alembic just gets louder. For me, this makes me much more likely to have a bad experience and sore fingers and arm everytime I play another bass. Other people have a hell of a time getting what they want out of the Alembic because it's reproducing their sloppy technique very precisely. We've all experienced that humbling experience and have chosen to grow through it, while many have chosen to hide from it instead. For them, yes, an Alembic probably isn't a good value at any price.. John | ||
| aquaman
Member Username: aquaman Post Number: 64 Registered: 9-2006 |
The uniqueness of the hand-crafted Alembic bass is evident. No Alembic is exactly like another since they are hand selected and built. Question: did the same Alembic craftsmen build all of the basses since inception of the company? Are certain craftsmen associated by year to the basses built? | ||
| daveski
Junior Username: daveski Post Number: 23 Registered: 10-2003 |
I have to agree with John that my technique has tightend up tremendously since aquiring my Alembic,i've had to work on it of course,but it's very satisfing when you plug in an Alembic bass,play quite well and get that sound you're after.So much so that i've sold all my other basses and ordered another Alembic!. I have never played any other models apart from the ones i've owned,but would rather own one of the slightly cheaper Alembics if i had no choice,than any other bass....... I am a total convert and i'm glad thats the way it's going to stay! | ||
| white_cloud
Senior Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 452 Registered: 11-2007 |
Sadowsky - a great pre-amp in a good Fender copy! Thats where it ends for me! For some people that combination makes for the ultimate bass and good luck to those folks, but I prefer an original design..its a personal choice! Jaco swore by his beat up old Jazz - even though to most of us it looked fit for the bin - and Hadrien Feraud swears by his Japanese ken Smith Burner bass...some times a certain bass just grabs us and it becomes special! In this respect surely a "low end" Alembic can be just a special as a "high end" one? Flea loved his Excel enough to record with it, why didnt he source a series 1 or 2, or even have a custom build? Do you catch my drift? John. | ||
| glocke
Senior Member Username: glocke Post Number: 431 Registered: 9-2002 |
Technique: I almost embarrased to play my series I at times. It exposes every single flaw in my technique, no matter how minor. Those same flaws are unnoticed on my jazz bass, and even my SCSD. End result? Alot more of my practice time happens on my series I because of that. Other basses: It is very rare that I walk into a music store, pick up a bass, and get that "I gotta have it feeling". Usually there is something lacking in tone or feel that just doesnt do it for me. I also own a72 jazz and 64 jazz that is all original. Both sound good, but the 64 is simply the best sounding bass Ive ever played that is not an Alembic (and to be honest at times I prefer the sound of that bass over my Alembics). Its got a very dry, warm, and woody tone that I have yet to find in any mass produced bass | ||
| white_cloud
Senior Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 453 Registered: 11-2007 |
A 64 Jazz is probably as close to bass perfection as can be found - you are a lucky man! No sadowsky could ever compare to a 64er! leo Fender astounds me. He so very nearly got it right with the Precision and then totally nailed it with the Jazz! Musicman and G&L basses werent half bad either..what a guy John. | ||
| glocke
Senior Member Username: glocke Post Number: 432 Registered: 9-2002 |
Yes, the 64 jazz is as close to a perfect bass Ive ever found (for me personally). The neck profile is perfect for my hands, and the sound is perfect also. With flats on my series I, I can get close to that sound, but I cant reproduce it exactly. Ive heard arguments that the tone of those early fenders is due to the wood being from trees found in old growth forests, which may have different sonic characteristics than wood from younger trees. Who knows.... I wish I had it in me to play the bass more than I do, but I am scared to death to take it out on gigs for fear of it being stolen. Its pretty much the only instrument I have I consider being truly irreplaceable. | ||
| white_cloud
Senior Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 455 Registered: 11-2007 |
Modern timber harvesting certainly doesnt allow for slow growth so there might be a lot of truth in that!! I wouldnt take 64er out much either..I dont blame you! John. |
