| Author | Message | ||
| hifibassman
Junior Username: hifibassman Post Number: 29 Registered: 12-2002 |
What combination of body wood and neck laminates would yield a combination of that impressive 70's classic "buttery" alembic series bass sound (which got me hooked on the series bass in the first place 20 years ago) with today's general preference for a punchy, tight bass sound- or is that impossible to get? Maybe the new series basses already have all of this (i can't afford one so i can't tell except by other recordings of it, and i've only played a series 1 once in my life- incredible experience at a music store with nice salespeople). All of the recordings of a series bass i've ever listened to (live or studio) sound like absolute bass perfection to me. In general, are the recordings i've been listening to over the years getting that buttery sound influenced more by the bass rig being used or the recording studio sound board using that "over easy" compression? Hope i didn't confuse anyone with my babling. | ||
| hifibassman
Junior Username: hifibassman Post Number: 30 Registered: 12-2002 |
No one wants to answer my question?? Am i that bad at asking?? I thought this was a friendly forum. | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 562 Registered: 9-2002 |
No brother -no-no! I mean yes-yes (oh s**$!->?¿ ...I'm confused , maybe the babbling LOL me and babbling ...oh-o) The question you ask is not THAT simple (AND i think we're all in a lazy mood). The sound of a bass from the past is brought to us by a lot of factors so evaluating them and comparing to now is not THAT easy. You blame the wood for a "buttery" sound (love that word). It's part of it in my opinion. Moder Mica pointed it out somewhere but (hopla) wood CAN mean a lot of difference (I think for sure in neck-through design) but is not the only thing. More: wood (and the guitar) changes by aging and being played. I think I will hurt nobody by saying -IMO- that giving the known techniques of reproducing and amplifiing sound it's VERY difficult to have a bad sounding bass. Than you have the bass + the amplification (or recording) as creators of yout "Buttery sound". Taking the bass as a stand-alone unit with "amplification technmology constant" (= we only change guitars and not the amplification) I guess you will truely HEAR what the Alembics can do! About woods. Somewhere on this club -in the dark ages of passed time (so let's say about a year ago)- I wrote in a thread about the tonal differences of wood (as far I could find them here and there and puzzle them together), I know that our Moder Mica has very definite ideas about this issue, also written down in that "era". She talked about the early experiments with woods. Please be so kind to wander around and use the search function, it must be there. I'm sure my collaegues will come quick and give some more insight! Brother Michael knows a lot of these older Alembics, I'm sure he will come this way soon! (anyway ....I'm the bad one here, not them LOL) Paul the bad one (Message edited by palembic on August 27, 2003) | ||
| mdrdvp
Member Username: mdrdvp Post Number: 53 Registered: 7-2002 |
Hi, Have a look at http://alembic.com/club/messages/393/5724.html?1061230499 I had a similar question about the differences between the old buttery and the new sound. Manfred | ||
| hifibassman
Junior Username: hifibassman Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2002 |
guys, thanks for responding. whew! for a minute there i thought i violated some club rule or something by asking forbidden or awkward questions. you guys really are nice and i appreciate it. | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 1099 Registered: 6-2000 |
On older recordings using Alembic basses (we're talkin' 1970s here), many artists used flatwound strings. The preferred brand was Pyramid Gold made by Framus company in Germany. These sounded good for one song then the artists would restring for the next song they recorded. I've heard from experienced players tha the Thomastik jazz flats are a good substitute string. | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 1100 Registered: 6-2000 |
Hey, maybe I should try answering your original question, huh? You'll want less dense neck woods primarily - Mahogany, Walnut, Vermilion, Beech. The neck is the most influential wood for the tone. Maybe you should try a Brown Bass when you get a chance. That's made with a recipe of woods the same as bass number 80, and I've heard many people refer to its sound as "buttery" We once made a bass for Stanley Clarke with the Purpleheart neck laminates - he didn't like it because it was too stiff for his pehead vibrato technique. | ||
| dela217
Intermediate Member Username: dela217 Post Number: 190 Registered: 6-2002 |
I have a 1972 Alembic that I have flatwound strings on. It's neck consists of mostly walnut with 2 very small veneers of maple running through the neck. It has an ebony fingerboard with a maple veneer underneath it. The sound this combination gets is much more than buttery. It is the whole dairy. | ||
| hifibassman
Junior Username: hifibassman Post Number: 32 Registered: 12-2002 |
The 70's basses that i'm used to listening to i believe had the roundwounds. i was into funk, soul, and disco back then and listened to groups like the blackbyrds, skyy, donald byrd, slave, mother's finest, and then was exposed to jazz fusion like stanley clarke (mostly). My favorites also included fleetwood mac, and the who. They all seemed to play buttery sounding series 1 and 2 basses with roundwounds on it except for fleetwood mac (i'm not sure). Was John McVie the one who had the flat wound strings on their classic album with the "thunder and rain" song on it? | ||
| dela217
Intermediate Member Username: dela217 Post Number: 191 Registered: 6-2002 |
Hifi - I caught a Blackbyrds show once. It was a small club here in New Orleans. It was the late 70's. There were about 25 people in the club! Great show. They had an Alembic bass and Guitar on that stage. I was pleased. | ||
| elzie
Intermediate Member Username: elzie Post Number: 189 Registered: 8-2002 |
Mother's Finest?? I have not heard that name in years! Every time I would mention it, no one would know who they were. Next you are going to mention Angel ;) | ||
| hifibassman
Junior Username: hifibassman Post Number: 33 Registered: 12-2002 |
well Elzie... most everyone i talk to about mother's finest here know them. they were one heck of a funk rock group. i loved their live album- that alembic bass rocks the stage! dela217- i've never seen the blackbyrds live, but they sure sounded good on their albums. i kinda miss all of those sounds back in the 70's and 80's. the stuff out here now just doesn't have that magic anymore. or maybe i'm getting too old. | ||
| tylere
Junior Username: tylere Post Number: 11 Registered: 7-2003 |
Lemme back up mica on Thomastik-Infeld. They are absoluetly the best strings I've ever used. I use them exclusivly. Thomastik has 3 main lines of strings. The jazz flats are flat wounds, very warm and smooth sounding. Almost like an upright in some ways. There's very little loss of high frequencies like on many flats, so that DON"T have the "dead" sound associated with, say, motown bass. I use these on my epic fretles. The powerbass strings are perfect for modern playing. Crystal clear highs for slap, and deep clear lows. Sustain forever. The jazz roundwounds are sorta in the middle. | ||
| mdrdvp
Member Username: mdrdvp Post Number: 54 Registered: 7-2002 |
Mother's Finest is still active, but the Alembic sound is gone. Their live album is great, it has that typical sound Hifi is talking about, I dug up some old records like Rose Royce and Clarke/Duke project II which also has that sound on the song "You're gonna love it". They all used roundwound strings. Those basses were brand new at that time, so I don't think it has anything to do with the age of the bass itself. My previous series one produced that sound as well, but the one I'm using now doesn't. Must be the neck or the thicker body. Maybe the Brown bass Mica is talking about. Does anybody have some sound samples of it? Manfred | ||
| hifibassman
Junior Username: hifibassman Post Number: 34 Registered: 12-2002 |
mica- like you said, if i want that classic old buttery sound i need to look for a brown bass. eventually i will purchase a used series 1 or 2, so i need to look out for one with low density neck woods. thanks for your valuable input. tylere- can you slap on those flatwounds? for some reason i thought roundwounds were best for the slap sound. if you did slap on the flats, do they sound like rounds? regarding the motown bass sound- i think the bass is supposed to sound like that intentionally although i hardly believe that during those days they were even aware or cared about the ultra clean fidelity bass sound frontier that alembic was building at the time. i don't know, i kinda like that dull sound for some stuff- i absolutely love all that 70's classic isley brothers bass sound- and that was mostly a dull but deep fender jazz bass. if you listen to the early jackson 5 recordings i think jermaine was using a gibson SG bass which the pickup positions were similar to the series one, but were no where near refined like alembic. that gibson had a very dull but even tone sound to it- it sounded sweet to me for that type of music venue- probably because the bass body and neck was mahogany, like the core of a series bass. i'm sure an alembic bass would have definitely enriched that sound using those low pass filters at the right setting. manfred- i don't know of any other group that had such a heavy handed powerful bass presence as mother's finest (except maybe john entwistle and the who). to me, their live album represents what an alembic series bass should sound like at the top of it's live performance envelope (the "wizzard" bass player had his filters set to low or medium Q which did not dramatically accentuate any resonance across the bass frequency range). At that concert you can hear every nuance of bass sound and resonance- VERY LOUDLY. must of had a heck of a massive amplification system to support that alembic (for back in the 70's). i think the brown bass sound was stanley clarke's signature sound although most of his recordings (i think) had the bass tuned A,D,G,F with light gauge strings. (Message edited by hifibassman on August 29, 2003) | ||
| tylere
Junior Username: tylere Post Number: 12 Registered: 7-2003 |
I don't really know, I've only used the flats on a fretless, which isn't really something you slap on... Wouldn't say it's out of the question, but they're probably NOT ideal for slapping. | ||
| mdrdvp
Member Username: mdrdvp Post Number: 55 Registered: 7-2002 |
I've talked a lot this weekend with my guitarist about woods, neck woods and neck thickness. About tone, about taking your bass out of it's case so it can pick up all vibrations in the room, etc etc. But, there is also one major difference between the old and new basses. The pickup selector switch. In the '70s it was placed on the lower horn of the bass, and the space between the neck pickup and the neck itself was a lot smaller these days. So, you were forced to thump and pluck between the neck and bridge pickup. Well, I did the same on my '98 series I/II and voila, there it was, the good old buttery sound. Try it. For me it works perfect, it's pretty hard to do but just like the old basses, you have to get used to it to make it work. Manfred | ||
| hifibassman
Junior Username: hifibassman Post Number: 37 Registered: 12-2002 |
Manfred, i had noticed this also, if you play the strings between the two pickups directly above the dummy humcanceller you will get a very rounded out balanced sound. If you slap and snap there, you'll get most of that '70 and '80 ish series bass signature sound. This is where you will get the most buttery sound from- like stanley's slap sound. But if you listen to Mark King, his series bass sound a bit more edgy and clanky, but still super clean. he does slap very close to the fretboard past the neck pickup. Mark's sound to me has very little buttery sound in it, but it is way more punchy and a bit sterile because of his extreme slap technique. (Message edited by hifibassman on September 02, 2003) | ||
| joweejojo
New Username: joweejojo Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2003 |
Hi, long time reader, first time writer. Buttery sound? That's a good way to describe it. I have a '81 Series II with walnut top and back, mahogany center, and is very buttery. But, my '00 Mark King standard with quilted maple top and mahogany core isn't so buttery. It must only be the Series that sound this way. Slave? I didn't think anyone knew that group. By the way, Mark Adams is the bass player's name. | ||
| hifibassman
Junior Username: hifibassman Post Number: 38 Registered: 12-2002 |
joweejojo, I was describing Mark King of level 42's bass sound. But you're right, Mark Adams is from the group slave, and he did play a series bass also. His sound was raw and powerful, but super clean like Mark King. I think Adam's sound was a little different from the other ones- i can't figure out what he did to make that series bass sound so raw. Lots of power and edge to it- no butter, but extremely bright and clear. in your case with that '00 Mark King standard, i think you need that middle hum canceller pickup to get that series bass sound- it does contribute certain harmonics to the sound. | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 564 Registered: 9-2002 |
Ha-ha! I spotted a newcomer! Joweejojo...welcome to the club! A bunch of incredible sweet AND weird people who love to change the world with low frequency attacks! Well ...that is to say ...in the most peaceful meaning of that word. The whole PAUL departement is now yelling "pictures-pictures-pictures" so please climb in to your old Pencaclickon camera, ask to put the pictures on a CD and load them into the appropriate department in this club. So we all can enjoy your baby! Anyway, welcome again, the other Pauls will be here now any minute so ...got to run! Paul the bad one PS: the humcanceller is a kind of "noise gate". I think it "pick-ups" certain hisses and filters them out. I'm not a technician (the more thechnical Pauls can explain however). I think we must remenber that the Series PU are huge singe coils. If you have a Fender Strat hanging around somewhere that are also single coils and SMALL ones. Those guitars have a hissing attitude already. Can you imagine why there is that humcanceller with those BIG single coils on a series. The other PU of Alembic are from the "Humbucking" type but you have to check that in the club. If I remember well Mica explained somewhere the principle of making those PU what is COMPLETELY different from other PU-brands ...of course ...otherwise it wouldn't be Alembic | ||
| kayo
Junior Username: kayo Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2002 |
Yo Fellas - Slave was huge in the late 70's early 80's in the R&B/Soul/Funk genres..... everyone I knew - knew of them.... indeed Mark Adams used to tear it up like that layin' down the slap back then - when not too many outside of Clark and Graham were hip on it. |
