| Author | Message | ||
| aquaman
Member Username: aquaman Post Number: 67 Registered: 9-2006 |
Does the body shape affect the sound of the bass? For example, does a standard Spoiler sound different than a Spoiler Exploiter -- assume that the electronics are the same. | ||
| serialnumber12
Advanced Member Username: serialnumber12 Post Number: 380 Registered: 12-2004 |
Series basses are chambered where'as all other models come standard with solid bodies except for SC/MK sig (delux) models come chambered, so that being said chambered basses have more of a rounded sound (full-bodied tone)....of course wood types have their tone characteristics too. | ||
| pclifton2004
Junior Username: pclifton2004 Post Number: 25 Registered: 4-2004 |
Only Series models come chambered - it's an option on SC and MK deluxe (I had it on mine) but a $500 one (or was on 2000) | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 420 Registered: 3-2004 |
I'm guessing the answer is yes, but the effect probably is no where near as strong as changing woods. In some ways wood acts as a filter, absorbing the vibrational energy of the strings. Changing the distribution of mass through the body will probably have some subtle effect on how the wood absorbs this energy. | ||
| apdavis
Member Username: apdavis Post Number: 90 Registered: 5-2004 |
Side by side comparisons would be interesting. Definitely more mass in the exploiter body. Geddy Lee had made a point that his double neck Rickenbacker was the better sounding of his Rics possibly due to the mass. | ||
| jseitang
Advanced Member Username: jseitang Post Number: 252 Registered: 6-2002 |
when i had my series custom made, i asked them not to chamber the body, the result was a real difference in the presence of sound. also very very heavy bass. | ||
| mike1762
Intermediate Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 190 Registered: 1-2008 |
I understand the filtering effect of wood. But what does more mass do? Is it going to suck MORE of the vibrational energy out of the strings or will the greater mass inhibit resonance of the body? | ||
| white_cloud
Senior Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 532 Registered: 11-2007 |
To be honest it probably doesnt make a huge difference. I would also argue that the species of wood selected for the "tops" makes virtually no difference at all to the tone of the instrument either...most of the tone probably comes from the stiffness of the neck/neck thru...then body core/instrument design etc. IMHO chambering the body DOES indeed have a significant effect on the sound. Ken Smith argued some time ago that multi laminations made no difference to the sound at all, that it was just a fancy way of using nice looking joints. It could be argued that lots of glue joints actually DETRACT from the tone of an instrument but I am sure there are just as many people who would disagree. It looks great though!! The true test of any instrument is how it sounds unplugged - a lot of modern high end basses rely heavily on expensive electrics and pick-ups! | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 1186 Registered: 2-2005 |
Actually the top/back woods do make a difference in the sound of the bass. I have been able to compare several that have walnut or maple tops and the standard maple/purple heart neck. There is a pronounced brightness to the ones with maple tops. This might not be as noticeable for all woods but it is there. Keith | ||
| pclifton2004
Junior Username: pclifton2004 Post Number: 27 Registered: 4-2004 |
White Cloud, if you side by side a maple top neck thru bass and a cocobola top one you will take that back lol - top wood, against many opinions I have heard, makes a very audible difference to tone. The choice of corewoods does too, though less noticably to my ears. Cocobola looks best if you ask me, but maple has a brighter, punchier tone. Glue is the enemy to tone, but laminates just look so nice! | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 421 Registered: 3-2004 |
Mike, I think the logic goes that the more massive the wood, hardware, etc., the less transfer of vibration between the strings and body. This is why Alembic adds the brass sustain blocks under bridges, and why the addition of Ebony to a neck causes the harmonics to ring longer. | ||
| mike1762
Intermediate Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 192 Registered: 1-2008 |
Kevin I worded my question poorly... going back to the OP's question: Does a bigger chuck of the SAME wood act as a bigger filter (absorbing more of its typical frequencies) or does it absorb less owing to its greater mass? Or perhaps it's the same with less perceptible resonance of the body owing to greater "diffusion(?)" of the resonance. Is Bob Novy reading this? He knows about this stuff. | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 2026 Registered: 6-2002 |
"and why the addition of Ebony to a neck causes the harmonics to ring longer." The point with ebony is that it makes the fundamental (aka the first harmonic) ring longer. Each note starts out with its maximum energy, and as the fundamental takes up a lot of energy, its amplitude will decrease quicker than that of the higher harmonics. So as the note keeps ringing, the lower frequency components fade out. With ebony, this fade-out is slower. Specific weight, stiffness, oiliness, brass hardware --- it all contributes to the tone, but in different ways. Resonance can be sympathetic, but also resistant. Then start laminating chunks of wood, and the outcome becomes more and more interesting (or dead). | ||
| white_cloud
Senior Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 533 Registered: 11-2007 |
I have certainly noticed a big difference between tones of solid bodied basses over the years but less so on multi laminated basses. Maple is indeed much brighter than for example Mahogany etc. The real advantage, however, of laminating is that you can marry an extremely stable Mahogany core with a much less stable Maple top and form what is effectively a compromise of sorts - a body that wont move much combined with an improved brightness. I dont doubt for a minute that other folks here at the club have noticed a tonal difference between different tops though - perhaps I should stand corrected on that one...its just that I havent noticed a big difference in my experience i.e. not really being able to afford more than two high quality multi laminated instuments at the time  I do still believe though that most of the sound/tone is in the neck/neck construction. This is where all the dynamic resonance occurs - much less so in body wood "tops" of only a few millimetres thickness. I feel it would be beneficial to my research if some kind club members would be willing to donate their Alembics (a wide variety of "tops" would be preferable please) to me for some prolonged and comprehensive study? All interested members in this scheme please contact me asap as I have some big gigs coming up over the holiday period  | ||
| pclifton2004
Junior Username: pclifton2004 Post Number: 28 Registered: 4-2004 |
Easier than that - borrow a dvd copy of Level 42 either Guaranteed tour 1994 or Isle of White 2000 (approx years) and have a good listen to the tone difference between the quilted maple topped series II and the cocobola topped one - it's quite audible - his EQ settings are same, he simply swaps basses. The maple is brighter and punchier, the coco sort of darker and more complex and rich but with less 'presence'. I think it may be more pronounced on series instruments because of the resonance provided by the hollow body under the top wings? Of course, your method is more enjoyable! | ||
| s_wood
Advanced Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 288 Registered: 5-2002 |
I own some Series basses with sold bodies, and some that are hollow, and there is an audible difference. I also hear an important difference between certain top woods, such as quilt or flame maple versus cocobolo, while other top woods make less of a difference. Like pclifton implies above, my experience has been that most careful Alembicians would be able to hear the difference between maple and cocobolo. There are, of course, lots of other important variables. The effect of ebony neck lams, particularly when more than one is used, is pretty profound. Finally, there's a noticeable difference between a neck made primarily of mahogany and one made primarily of maple. And all of that is before we talk about the type and age of the strings used - not to mention amp, speakers...etc. To answer your original question, though, I doubt that the shape of the body matters much, although mass (which can be related to body size) absolutely matters. | ||
| bkbass
Intermediate Member Username: bkbass Post Number: 189 Registered: 11-2003 |
Ibanez did a computer analysis of body vibration I think during the late 70's possibly 80's. Anyway, It showed the various resonant areas. I seem to remember the upper bout or horn having an additive effect on the lower notes. If this is true then it would appear that shape does in some way affect the sound. | ||
| artswork99
Senior Member Username: artswork99 Post Number: 532 Registered: 7-2007 |
Vibrational Analysis of Guitar Bodies (PDF) from the University of Illinois. | ||
| mike1762
Intermediate Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 195 Registered: 1-2008 |
Thanks for the link Art. It's been a while since my last physics class, but I could sort-of follow the study. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3419 Registered: 7-2004 |
"The results suggest that electric guitars do not vibrate in the same way as acoustic guitars." I suspect these guys aren't guitar players. Bill, tgo | ||
| mike1762
Intermediate Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 196 Registered: 1-2008 |
Bill I think you are right, the authors were probably NOT guitar players... it was an study approached from the perspective of basic science. Was there something about the discussion and/or conclusions that bothered you? | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3424 Registered: 7-2004 |
Not bothered at all. Actually I found the article very interesting though, admittedly, I just skimmed it. I just thought the opening conclusion was amusing in it's obviousness. Sort of like "Scientists concluded that an electric guitar plugged into an amp is demonstrably louder than the same guitar unplugged", or those sports "color" commentators who come up with such insiteful comments as "scoring more points helps you to win". No disparagement intended. Bill, tgo | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 7258 Registered: 5-2002 |
John; that's a great idea you have for us sending our Alembics to you for the comparative analysis. But it's already been done, by Mica. As Mica has stated often, and as mentioned above by Steve, some tops make a difference in the tone of the instrument, and some tops don't. And as stated above by several, tops such as Cocobolo and Maple contribute significantly to the sound; other woods not so much. You are of course correct in that neck woods contribute more to the sound of a neck through instrument than do the body woods. However, there is a significant difference between a neck through with a Mahogany body and the same instrument with a Maple body. The choice of other core body woods will also change the tone of the instrument. Of course on the most important contributors to tone is the choice of fingers. I'm always surprised at how great my basses sound when someone else plays them! | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3435 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dave: Obviously, you've never heard me play your bass! hehehehe Bill, tgo | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 7259 Registered: 5-2002 |
Bill, it would probably sound better than me trying to do something with those really thin strings of yours. | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 5737 Registered: 6-2000 |
Just about everything impacts the sound. In my experience, mass is the most meaningful, but I'm certain that the shape itself will contribute as well. Just how much, and how to talk about it would require more careful observations and test instruments to be made for the control. Make everything the same except for the body shape, using wood from all the same lumber. Could make a nice collection ;) As far as wood overall, in Alembic basses and guitars, I find the neck is the most pronounced place the wood affects the tone. On a fretless bass, next is the fingerboard. On a fretted guitar or bass, next is the body wood (that's the core and the laminates). I have been carefully studying the last several hundred Alembic basses and guitars, and I have learned to hear many things that were not obvious to me a few years ago. Coco Bolo is incredibly distinctive, as is Quilted Maple. Koa is unmistakable. A Mahogany neck gives itself away easily, but the body wood variables blur a little when paired with it. In the end, the best advice is to select woods that won't fight against the default sound you are seeking to avoid a major custom blunder. For instance, an original all-Maple Essence is probably not a good choice for a typical country band, but can be stellar with rock. If you like the look of Koa, but the warm sound with less pronounced highs is exactly opposite the tone you are trying for, then you shouldn't use it except for a decorative veneer on the peghead. Though I've watched hundreds of basses and guitars through the real time spectrum analyzer, and my sensitivity to changes in tone from wood has expanded, I'm always learning more every time I try. So please, listen to as many instruments as you can and if you're really interested, keep a notebook with your observations, it's very useful for reference. | ||
| white_cloud
Senior Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 551 Registered: 11-2007 |
The human ear is an incredible piece of biological engineering - each being custom made by mother nature!!! Your ear will never lie when telling your brain what sounds good...that is the real and exclusively individual truth about each persons preference! Mica has the best advice - listen to as many different basses/tone woods and decide for yourself what your "tonal truth" is! One mans meat, after all, is another mans poison. The beauty of music is in the ear of the beholder as much as physical beauty is in the eye - another of mother natures classic designs Happy Xmas (or whatever your preference may be)my friends. John. | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 2037 Registered: 6-2002 |
Hi Mica, In another thread you mentioned that the LP filter could be tuned higher, to compensate for a less bright sounding top wood. Judging by your comments about koa on this thread, I think that could be a sensible modification for my koa Spoiler. Can it be done by simply replacing a component on the cb, or does it require benchtime at the mothership? I sent the harness over for modifications a couple of years ago (a pan pot and a 0/3/6dB Q switch) so it's no longer the stock package. When I tried out a Fatboy on loan from 0vid, I thought it sounded a bit muffled, but I guess the koa may have had something to do with that ... (Message edited by adriaan on December 19, 2008) | ||
| s_wood
Advanced Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 290 Registered: 5-2002 |
Can I repeat myself? For me, the biggest barrier to learning about the tone of different basses in a comparative way relates to differences in the strings. Unless the strings are of the same type brand, gauge and age - and they almost never are - it's virtually impossible to know whether the tone differences you hear are a function of the bass or the strings. In many case, perhaps most, it's the strings. If you are a roundwound player like me, just think of the huge difference in tone produced by strings that are right out of the package and strings that are a month old! Adriaan, if you are trying to wrestle more high end out of your koa Spoiler it's true that you are fighting against the inherent tone qualities of koa, which is a wood that is warm rather than bright. Before you give up, how about slapping a set of Rotosounds or Dean Markley SR2000's on it? (Message edited by s_wood on December 19, 2008) | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 2038 Registered: 6-2002 |
Steve, thanks for the string suggestions. I'm pretty happy with the sound of DR LoRiders (steel) for what I do, but the filter knob has to stay open: move it the slightest bit away from the maximum frequency, and it immediately loses nearly all the sparkle. Even with a koa top, there are frequencies further up the spectrum from the cut-off frequency, and it would certainly help if the LP filter wouldn't cut them off quite so drastically. Which leads nicely to another question: what about an LP filter with an adjustable drop-off rate? The current 12dB/octave is probably a big factor in the Q boost, but I'm not sure it's the right 'voicing' for koa. | ||
| mike1762
Advanced Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 201 Registered: 1-2008 |
Adriaan, I like the idea about an adjustable drop-off rate. You could get some boost at lower frequencies but not loose all the upper harmonics. Hey... I'm an advanced member now. Do I get a key to the virtual washroom or something? | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 7264 Registered: 5-2002 |
Mike, thanks for the reminder; I always forget to let the newly advanced members know about the dues advanced members get to pay. |
