| Author | Message | ||
| hendixclarke
Senior Member Username: hendixclarke Post Number: 713 Registered: 6-2007 |
I often think about the values of my older Alembic in comparison to the new ones built. Does it get to a point where sound is better with age or newer axes need to get older "broken in" or is it just the opposite (newer the better)? What is the optimum mid-point of sound from a guitar/bass age perspective? What is the expiration on pickups, knobs, and general electronics, and when is it a good time to replace the electronics, or is this even recommend for maintaining the original value even if nothing is wrong technically, and thus stay with the older electronics? Would the value be lowered if parts are upgraded to newer Alembic components from a vintage perspective? | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 828 Registered: 11-2004 |
Even though Alembic make the best basses and guitars I think they still(even after 40 years)have not got that vintage mystique of old pre CBS Fenders or 1950's Gibsons. I do find it odd that someone is willing to pay extremely large amounts of money for something which is basically two bits of wood screwed together with a single pick up, volume and tone control even though it might have old cloth insulation. I don't get impressed by someone telling me 'it's a 59 Precision' okay it does the job but my bass does it better. Leo made these guitars and basses for the kids who could not afford the expensive Gibsons. | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 1210 Registered: 7-2003 |
To my taste, older Fenders have the same kind of rugged character as an old Ford - elegantly utilitarian, an engineering and manufacturing milestone, all bound up in nostalgia, etc. I like, 'em, because I like all those things. But I guess I don't see the magical quality many of my friends endow old Fenders with. Also, BTW - the driver in me would still rather have an old (or new) Mercedes Benz (LOL). | ||
| hendixclarke
Senior Member Username: hendixclarke Post Number: 714 Registered: 6-2007 |
I can care less about Fenders. I was asking about Alembics specifically. Perhaps if I assign a number to each question would help... 1. Does it get to a point where sound is better with age or newer axes need to get older "broken in" or is it just the opposite (newer the better)? 2. What is the optimum mid-point of sound from a guitar/bass age perspective? 3. What is the expiration on pickups, knobs, and general electronics, and when is it a good time to replace the electronics, or is this even recommend for maintaining the original value even if nothing is wrong technically, and thus stay with the older electronics? 4. Would the value be lowered if parts are upgraded to newer Alembic components from a vintage perspective? | ||
| tmoney61092
Intermediate Member Username: tmoney61092 Post Number: 103 Registered: 9-2008 |
Wo, calm down, they were just making a comparison | ||
| tmoney61092
Intermediate Member Username: tmoney61092 Post Number: 104 Registered: 9-2008 |
Wo, calm down, they were just making a comparison | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 829 Registered: 11-2004 |
Hendixclarke..okay so you don't like Fenders etc. So lets do an analysis Q1 - Do old instruments sound better as they get older, well maybe they do as but from what point of view. The newer ones maybe be brighter as the woods may still have some residual moisture in them and as they 'dry out' they become more mellow.This would be a good scientific research topic for any material scientist. Q2 - Depends on construction etc. Does 40 year old instrument classify as a vintage sound Q3 - Keep it original, this applies to any item of value whether it be a car, motorcycle, furniture or musical instrument. Repair is better than replacement. So there you have it..one opinion on old Alembic v new Alembic | ||
| hendixclarke
Senior Member Username: hendixclarke Post Number: 715 Registered: 6-2007 |
Terry, I agree. Age gets better over time.  Man, you put a smile on my face... | ||
| hendixclarke
Senior Member Username: hendixclarke Post Number: 716 Registered: 6-2007 |
tmoney61092, why don't you weigh in on answering my questions. I really like open ended discussions because there's so many perspectives, I am sure. | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 1211 Registered: 7-2003 |
1. I'm skeptical about the extent to which aging wood actually changes the sound (of a solid body instrument, particularly) to an audible degree. The means to measure this are beyond my scope, but I've heard a fair number of knowledgeable folks share the same belief. 2. Not postitive what you are looking for here. 3. Provided the parts still function as intended, I agree with Terry. However, the need to upgrade older series electronics if they are getting noisy (as I understand it, often due to how RFI-active the bass's specific locale) could impact performance unevenly. 4. As a general rule, I agree that original is better. However, the upgrade issue could cut either way. | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 563 Registered: 3-2004 |
It is my understanding that for whatever reason acoustic instruments improve with age. Violin makers seem to especially be sensitive to this. However, guitars don't have the life that violins do, and there are few early guitars that are still playable. I am sure with an acoustic instrument that there is a break in period where the top learns to flex and vibrate properly. I'm not so sure with electrics. | ||
| sonicus
Junior Username: sonicus Post Number: 19 Registered: 5-2009 |
I believe that one of the factors regarding the sonic virtues of century old violins such as the "Stradivarius" is the shellac finish that was used. Like wise a silver finish trumpet versus a lacquer finish trumpet will show timbral differences. The outer resonant surface of any purely acoustic instrument will play a role in defining the timbal character of how it sounds. I played a 1976 Alembic Scorpion and a 20th Anniversary last Sunday but personally I preferred the sound and feel from the relatively newer 20th anniversary's persona : perhaps it just depends on all of the variables involved, and every one might have a different story to tell . Wolf (Message edited by sonicus on May 20, 2009) | ||
| mike1762
Advanced Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 316 Registered: 1-2008 |
I remember reading somewhere that the wood used in those "Golden Age" Stradivarius violins were grown during a particularly cool stretch of Spring/Summers. As such, the growth of the trees was stunted and the wood was more dense that usual. I don't know if it's true, but I thought I would take the opportunity to perpetuate the story. | ||
| crobbins
Advanced Member Username: crobbins Post Number: 362 Registered: 6-2004 |
I think any new guitar has to be played to get some soul, and good vibes into it...Imho... (Message edited by CRobbins on May 19, 2009) | ||
| 2400wattman
Senior Member Username: 2400wattman Post Number: 712 Registered: 11-2005 |
While the woods will age and of course that helps with overall tone, the beating heart of our beloved Alembics is the electronics. So with that in mind I've been apprehensive about buying older models because they will eventually need an upgrade of some sort. My '89 Series 2 will be getting one soon and the cost is going to make my butt hurt! | ||
| hendixclarke
Senior Member Username: hendixclarke Post Number: 717 Registered: 6-2007 |
It seems like with everything, moving parts, Knobs/Pots are probably the first things to go wrong. | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 1475 Registered: 6-2002 |
Consider these http://www.newscientist.com/blog/invention/2007/09/ageing-instruments-with-sound.html This is an article by Rick Turner http://www.acousticguitar.com/Gear/advice/vibration.shtml Jazzyvee | ||
| hendixclarke
Senior Member Username: hendixclarke Post Number: 718 Registered: 6-2007 |
Those articles just raised the value of my 76 shorty. | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 2218 Registered: 6-2002 |
The case of antique violins is a hornet's nest of unprovable claims and wild speculations. There is however little doubt that most of the most precious violins have been "repaired" beyond recognition - e.g. the neck angle is much more acute. As such, it is a minor miracle that they sound as unmistakeably gorgeous as they do. | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 833 Registered: 11-2004 |
I can relate to the coating theory, maybe this could be applied to polyurethane versus poyester versus oil finish although it may be very optimal as different woods are used. On the wearable items I agree, as an old mechanic said to me once - 'if it moves and heats up, it will wear out' | ||
| svlilioukalani
Member Username: svlilioukalani Post Number: 52 Registered: 6-2008 |
I had some free time at work and started reading up on what make the Stradivarius violins (the Alembic of violins sound so good. This is the highlights of what I found. Is a worm repellent the secret to the treasured sound of a Stradivarius violin? Texas biochemist Joseph Nagyvary says the answer is yes. He first theorized that chemical treatment might be involved more than three decades ago, experimenting with different brines, chemicals and varnishes in an attempt to reproduce the distinct sound of a Stradivarius. After receiving many rejections, he finally procured two wood samples from different Stradivarius violins and one from Guarneri, a lesser-known contemporary of Stradivari whose violins also are highly valued by experts. ... Though the wood samples were small, each weighing about three-thousandths of an ounce, they contained enough material to perform an analysis using a technique called solid-state nuclear magnetic resonance, which found the chemicals used to prevent wood worm infestations. It proved to be the first hard evidence of special chemical treatment to protect the wood. The treatment, Nagyvary says, acts as a sort of noise filter. The combination of these chemicals with a unique varnish used by Stradivari, which guarantees a stiff material and a brilliant sound, explain the instrument's unique sound, Nagyvary said. http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/news/news/1421/ http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/articles/article/viledincertainlynot/ http://www.nagyvaryviolins.com/Nagyvary_Nature_Page.pdf | ||
| svlilioukalani
Member Username: svlilioukalani Post Number: 53 Registered: 6-2008 |
I had some free time at work and started reading up on what make the Stradivarius violins (the Alembic of violins), sound so good. This is the highlights of what I found. Is a worm repellent the secret to the treasured sound of a Stradivarius violin? Texas biochemist Joseph Nagyvary says the answer is yes. He first theorized that chemical treatment might be involved more than three decades ago, experimenting with different brines, chemicals and varnishes in an attempt to reproduce the distinct sound of a Stradivarius. After receiving many rejections, he finally procured two wood samples from different Stradivarius violins and one from Guarneri, a lesser-known contemporary of Stradivari whose violins also are highly valued by experts. ... Though the wood samples were small, each weighing about three-thousandths of an ounce, they contained enough material to perform an analysis using a technique called solid-state nuclear magnetic resonance, which found the chemicals used to prevent wood worm infestations. It proved to be the first hard evidence of special chemical treatment to protect the wood. The treatment, Nagyvary says, acts as a sort of noise filter. The combination of these chemicals with a unique varnish used by Stradivari, which guarantees a stiff material and a brilliant sound, explain the instrument's unique sound, Nagyvary said. http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/news/news/1421/ http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/articles/article/viledincertainlynot/ http://www.nagyvaryviolins.com/Nagyvary_Nature_Page.pdf | ||
| slawie
Member Username: slawie Post Number: 75 Registered: 8-2002 |
Thanks Gary that was fascinating reading. May I say; Opinions are like a$$holes everyone got one but you may not want to necessarily hear from it. My thoughts on the topic. 1. Older wood = better sound 2. The mid point is between the beginning and end of its life. 3. Metals, the main ingredient of electronics oxidises with age and the electrons just dont flow as well. There will come a point where the current will cease to flow or be adversly effected by this aging process. 4. The sound quality of the electronically manipulated resonance of the seasoned timber/instrument would increase with new electronics. However the "collectors value" so as to bring the instrument non-original would suffer. slawie | ||
| keavin
Senior Member Username: keavin Post Number: 1616 Registered: 12-2002 |
In general, the main thing any woodworker looks for is stability. "Green" wood, that is, wood that's been recently harvested, still contains a lot of moisture from the growing process. Some logs measure out as almost 30% water. As that water evaporates out of the wood, the wood shrinks. The general goal is to get the lumber down to between 4% and 7%. By the time it gets to be that dry, it's shrunk about as far as it's going to. Of course, just sitting there, it'll absorb moisture like a sponge. Right up until it hits either its maximum capacity or the ambient humidity. In the Bay Area, the RH generally sits between 40-60%. Higher in parts where it gets foggy (annual averages can hit 85% RH in some spots); lower in the more sheltered valleys in the south bay (20-30%). So, it's kinda hard to air dry lumber to less than about 18% here. A lot of stuff is kiln dried which, as the name implies, uses an oven to bake the wood down to the desired moisture level. Once you get the wood dry enough to work (4-7%), you build the instrument. Then you have the problem of absorption. Left unfinished, a guitar will suck in moisture until it hits equilibrium, back up in the 14-20% range. Pieces will expand, glue joints will be stressed, etc. Also note that the opposite can occur. I've talked with a few Asian builders who have sold guitars to customers in Saudi Arabia, Israel and Egypt, who have had their instruments implode because the ambient air's too dry. The guitars literally shrunk themselves to death by pulling all the glue joints open. Of course, these guitars were built in shops where the ambient RH was around 90%... Anyway, the older a piece of wood is, the lower it's moisture equilibrium point becomes. It's not dramatic, and does take a while, but over time the cellular structure of wood gradually looses its ability to retain moisture. Which is why we tend to look for older pieces of timber. It's also why we finish the things. Finishing seals the wood and, for all intents and purposes, prevents the wood from absorbing or shedding moisture. Oh, there's _some_ vapor-barrier effect and any finish is really a semi-permeable membrane, but the rate-of-change is miniscule. Acoustic guitars are a bit more vulnerable to moisture changes, if only because they're rarely finished on the inside. The exterior of the guitar is sealed, but the interior usually isn't. It's a trade-off between stability and environmental compliance (in that the instrument can more easily adapt to the local conditions if the wood can breath a bit). Cost is also a factor, as is the desire to not add too much extra mass to the soundboard by coating the underside with finish. Nic discusses a 1992 Alembic as an example. Born in '92, likely started in late '91. It's a given that Alembic knows what they're doing with wood, so the raw stock was stable in the storage barn for at least 6 months, more likely 3 years before being cut. (Take a look at some of the stuff that's still available in the Wood Bank, then work backwards to see the dates Mica first posted the info. There're boards available that she first posted in November 2002; they were at least a few years old at that point!) Anyway, at the minimum, the wood for the '92 was "shop-ready" around the beginning of '91. Now, they generally use 4/4 stock (that is, timber that's "4 quarters of an inch", or 1 real inch thick). They often get billets in that are "8/4" stock, which is 2 inches thick, then split them several times to get to the final 1/4" thick bookmatched pair for the top and back, or, for mahogany cores, down to about 3/4" thick. The key is that the raw stock is generally either 1" or 2" thick when they start working it. Woodyard rule-of-thumb is that it takes 1 year per inch of thickness for an average hardwood do dry out from full moisture/just cut down to "shop ready". Somewhat longer in the Northwest, where it's a bit damper. Alembic gets a reasonable amount of lumber that's sourced from NorCal, Oregon and Washington. (We're a great source for Walnut and Big Leaf Maple.) So, let's assume 4/4 stock, cut in this region. Figure 18-24 months to dry down to shop level (stock doesn't get into humidity controlled storage right away; it can take a few weeks to get from the forest to the mill, then a few more before it's milled for drying). Call it 2 years. That backs us up to early '89 as the earliest "harvest" date. So, the wood in your '92 is probably no less than 16 years old, at this point. The instrument, if left unfinished, would have reached an initial equilibrium point by late 1990, but would still be susceptible to humidity-based dimensional changes for about another 7 years. The wood was finished in 1992, however. This both protects the wood from moisture, but also slows the final equilibrium-reaching stage (because the wood can't breathe as well, after a polyester finish). So, figure the wood was 2 years into its 7-year settling period when it was finished, and that it would take twice as long to settle afterwards. 5 years x 2 = 10 years later, the wood would have reached it's final equilibrium point, where you can pretty much forget about humidity-based dimensional changes. Call it 2002, or thereabouts. Now, the wood can still shift a bit, but not traumatically so. Remember, it's _all_ hardwood of varying degrees, and Alembic is careful about grain orientation and glues and properties-of-motion. So the neck and body will generally expand and contract in complimentary--if not relatively identical--ways. Probably the weakest joint on the bass, as far as two pieces of wood wanting to go in different directions, are the headstock laminations. But they also have a lot of mechanical help in retaining their relationships: the tuning pegs. The mass of the pegs helps stabilize the interior temperature of the headstock (think "heatsink"), which in turn helps keep the wood's interior moisture level constant. The pegs also act as continuing clamps for the headstock sandwich. So the head isn't going to de-laminate. I might expect to see some lifting of the lamination at the tip of the standard crown peghead, but probably not for at least 20 years, and that only if the instrument is left outside most of the time. For a regular gigging instrument that travels in a case and stays indoors 95% of the time? Headstock lams should never be a problem. And, as I say, those are the joints _most_ susceptible to dimensional creep. So, yeah, I'd say your 1992 Alembic has reached its "point of maximum stability", and should keep that for at least 50-100 years or so, assuming the finish is not excessively damaged and the instrument is reasonably well cared for. By comparison, we're seeing some classical guitars that are sonically dying, because the woods have dried out to the point where they're losing flexibility. They're still structurally sound; the instruments are in no danger of losing structural integrity, but they're simply losing their voices due to age. These are mid-19th century instruments that, generally, have french-polish finishes externally and no finish internally. The hide glues used for the construction are still sound as adhesives, but they are drying out as flexible membranes that allows microtesimal movement between the braces and tops and backs. So the mechanical impedances are changing, and the instruments' voices are shifting (and being dampened out). But these guitars are 150+ years old and, in many cases, have been played a lot for their entire lives. And the voicing effects are more due to the glue joints drying out than to the wood losing moisture equilibrium. But it is possible that sometime around 2125, some of the earlier Alembics may start to lose compliance in their necks. Maybe sooner; maybe much later. Hard to tell, because the surface area of their glue joints involved are so much larger. Last thought on the wood: there are 14-15th century lutes that, while not playable because the glues have all dried out, still have perfectly solid wood in the necks and bodies. That's pushing 500 years. | ||
| georgie_boy
Senior Member Username: georgie_boy Post Number: 737 Registered: 8-2005 |
What a great piece of reading!!! Thanks from all of us Keavin! george | ||
| hendixclarke
Senior Member Username: hendixclarke Post Number: 719 Registered: 6-2007 |
Music is best heard in dry climates. I played my 1976 shorty in Atlanta, and thought I had a different bass, it sounded masked (unplugged) and very unfavorable. There was a major physical difference in tones. I thought it was the age of the bass, but when I got home (in Central California) the bass echoed and even whispered with resonance and sustain. A huge difference. If building a recording studio, consider a very dry climate. | ||
| hendixclarke
Senior Member Username: hendixclarke Post Number: 720 Registered: 6-2007 |
Yeah Keavin, that was pretty scholarly, along with Svlilioukalani piece contributed. Thanks | ||
| keavin
Senior Member Username: keavin Post Number: 1617 Registered: 12-2002 |
of Course that's a Dave houck post..........i just copied it LOL!!!http://alembic.com/club/messages/394/40991.html?1191236185 | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3829 Registered: 7-2004 |
I beleive that was written by "SFNIC", a San Francisco based luthier who used to post here a few years back. I don't think he's posted recently: Nic, if you're lurking, it would be great to hear from you, or even better to see you at the Northern California Alembic Gathering next month. Bill, tgo | ||
| gtrguy
Advanced Member Username: gtrguy Post Number: 201 Registered: 9-2004 |
Ah, the answer is "no". Anything else? | ||
| gtrguy
Advanced Member Username: gtrguy Post Number: 202 Registered: 9-2004 |
(Just had to push my posts to over 200 to get to advanced status!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) | ||
| altgrendel
Member Username: altgrendel Post Number: 85 Registered: 5-2008 |
Vintage? It's not what you think it's worth, it's how much someone else is willing to pay. My 78 fretless Guild B-301 is priceless to me. I don't think it's go for much more that $800.00 on eBay, though you never know. | ||
| s_wood
Advanced Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 298 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hmmm...not to be a contrarian, but in my subjective opinion the Alembics that are being built today are more desirable than the Alembics built in the 70's or 80's. Let me hasten to add that I completely agree with Keavin's wonderful post above as it pertains to the changes in wood that occur over time as the drying process continues. There's no doubt that there will be a subtle affect in tone as a result. Whether or not the change in tone will result is a sound that is "better" or "worse" is, of course, entirely subjective. Even if we want to assume for the sake of this discussion that old and drier wood sounds "better," that has to be balanced against a couple of factors. First, and although this is a purely subjective opinion of mine, I really do believe that the quality of the instruments produced by Alembic today is the highest it has ever been. Of course, alembic quality has always been amazing and second to none, but it's even better now. I particularly notice the difference in the fret work, which is nothing short of spectacular these days. Again, it was always top quality - all I am saying is that I think it's better now. A second factor that makes older Alembics sound different than newer ones relates to the finishes used. In the 70's Alembic used a lot of oil finishes, and in the 80's the clearcoat that they used was much thicker than what is used today. The finish differences will absolutely affect the instrument's tone, but whether or not the modern finishes sound "better" or "worse" is, again, purely subjective. My ears very much prefer the sound of the more modern finishes used by Alembic. They are much thinner than the old oil or poly finishes, and to my ears they produce a brighter and more open sound. Like I said, those are subjective observations. What's fact is that the post-2000 Series electronics are quieter than the original design. I own basses built before and after the design change, and the difference is pretty noticeable. Bottom line: I would rather own a newer Alembic than an older one. But hey, that's just me... (Message edited by s_wood on May 20, 2009) | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 2397 Registered: 2-2006 |
I think the "value" or desirability" of older Alembics or the new ones is very subjective. It all boils down to the individual. As for better or worse, I have a 1989 Series II and a 2008 Series II. The 89 has the original electronics, no upgrade, and while they do sound different they are equals in my opinion. I for one would love to have a 70's Series bass, and hopefuly this will come to pass one day. OO | ||
| hendixclarke
Senior Member Username: hendixclarke Post Number: 721 Registered: 6-2007 |
I want a 80's and 90's shorty... | ||
| white_cloud
Senior Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 670 Registered: 11-2007 |
So whats the opinion in general?? Are old Alembics better than new builds? Im going to nail my colours to the mast here - I would rather buy an old used Series than have one built for me! It may just be my state of mind on such things but to me I prefer to buy used instruments. Nothing beats a good played in vintage bass that has been played and loved. John. | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 2401 Registered: 2-2006 |
"So whats the opinion in general?? Are old Alembics better than new builds?" To me neither better or worse, different. OO | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 1480 Registered: 6-2002 |
I prefer the new Series basses but the only reason I would buy an older Series instrument in preference to a new one is cost. However not many newish series stuff comes up for sale that often. Jazzyvee | ||
| jacko
Senior Member Username: jacko Post Number: 2232 Registered: 10-2002 |
"So whats the opinion in general?? Are old Alembics better than new builds?" Unless you're lucky enough to have a new build series and an old series to compare it with, any comment is going to be pretty subjective. I love my '79 precision but that's more about the experiences I've had with her than the sound (which is part rickenbacker anyway) I play my 2005 and 2007 Alembics more than anything else. Graeme | ||
| kenbass4
Advanced Member Username: kenbass4 Post Number: 352 Registered: 10-2003 |
Okay, I'll bite. I own a 2006 Series II Gwathnar and a 1976 Series I http://alembic.com/club/messages/411/31037.html?1201140181 I find that for the most part, they sound similar, but since one is fretted and strung with roundwounds, and the other fretless with flats, their differences have less to do with age than setup. I find the Series I will pick up some noise, but it's barely noticeable, and doesn't effect my stage sound at all. I love them both equally for their purposes. Ken | ||
| hendixclarke
Senior Member Username: hendixclarke Post Number: 722 Registered: 6-2007 |
Well, I personally think it can go either way. But I am leaning more to innovation and improvements. Besides, there are only a limited number of vintage Alembics to go around anyway (I am generally talking about 70's). I feel lucky to hold one, that's for sure, but there's more innovation to come, just watch and see... | ||
| elwoodblue
Senior Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 691 Registered: 6-2002 |
I'm eagerly awaiting John Judge's designs. What impresses me about Alembic is the consistency of quality and service throughout the decades. Lotsa love and hard work put into each instrument no matter the era. I appreciate everyones input and points of view in this thread. (Message edited by elwoodblue on May 20, 2009) | ||
| jimmyj
Member Username: jimmyj Post Number: 69 Registered: 8-2008 |
Good thread my friends! Allow me to jump in with a couple thoughts even though I consider this subject to be on the fringe of mythology and magic and at least a very very personal perception thing... In the end, the instrument with the most value is the one that YOU enjoy most - for whatever reason. Alembic has never gone through a "CBS" period of cost cutting, poor construction and awful instruments so there is no "pre-CBS" time period we can name. Construction and concept have always been cutting edge and remains so. Does older wood which has been subjected to the right vibrations have some special atomic alignment mojo that makes "vintage" instruments better? Well, I guess it's possible. Certainly the Strads and similar acoustic instruments seem to have improved with age like fine wine - of course there is no way to prove this as recording techniques have changed and anybody who may have heard these fiddles when they were brand new is long gone... But I own 3 supposedly identical Series II fretted 5-string basses made of the same wood and dimensions within 2 years of each other - and they all sound different. To me (again, subjective) there is a distinct #1, #2 and #3. So the random variance of the wood used in construction seems to have had the biggest impact on the sound of these instruments. And since no two Alembics can ever be identical, every comparison of old to new, or even new to new, is subjective. So, 1. I don't think so, but if so it's a very subtle thing. Chances are my fingers have changed over the years but I can't say if they sound better or worse. Your mileage may vary. 1a. The electronics package has gotten QUIETER with Ron's recent upgrade so unless you enjoy the additional hum of "vintage" my choice here would be the new. 2. I don't know if the Strads are still getting better or sounding worse so mid-point would be a tough call. 3. Our well constructed solid state electronics package can last a very long time. In 34 years playing these basses the electronics have been rock solid. Unlike tubes there is no maintenance required. Electrolytic capacitors (like the ones in the DS5 power supply) will sometimes give up the ghost with age, especially if they have not been energized in many years. But again, I haven't run into that problem with any my instruments or power supplies. We could take this in another mythical direction and ask if the "flat pack" chips in the original preamp cards sounded better than the current chips... but let's not go there. Haha! "Does it have the vintage FETs"? Oh Lord! 4. No. Is there even such a thing as a Vintage Alembic market? I am a player and can't really understand the concept of a "collector" so maybe I shouldn't comment here. If somebody was just buying the instrument to display it in a glass case I would glue some knobs on the front and pull the electronics package and wiring harness to keep as spare parts. 4.5 The only things that might require maintenance are the parts that get physically worked. Tuners wear out, frets, possible nut and bridge saddles, sometimes 1/4 inch jacks... I don't think installing a new 1/4" jack would detrimentally effect the instrument's "vintage" value. Pardon the lengthy ramble! Cheers to all, Jimmy J | ||
| crobbins
Advanced Member Username: crobbins Post Number: 363 Registered: 6-2004 |
I like em all.. | ||
| white_cloud
Senior Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 671 Registered: 11-2007 |
Perception is key - each individual will have their own ideal based on what and how they percieve something! A lot of members here go into the minutest of detail about technical specification but I think that can often ammount to missing the point! I remember eading a fascinating interview with Jaco many years ago where the interviewer was flabbergasted that Jacos main beat up 62 Jazz had the original pots, pickups and hardware - he asked "but why" too which Jaco replied "because it sounds good!" - simplistic but that statement captures my whole technical requirement from a bass...it just has to sound good. For example TerryC states earlier in this discussion about how he perceives Fenders to be two lumps of wood screwed together with a single pickup - yet they have been used effectively by some of the greatest electric bassists of all time to make some of the most important music ever recorded! The same arguement could be used to dictate that Alembics are just a bunch of thin laminates and veneers glued and clamped together with a birds nest of much too complicated circuitry and wiring - its a self defeating arguement, its down to your own perception! Also, the sublime (and I truly mean sublime) Jimmy Johnson talks about "hum" on older Alembics but to me that wouldnt matter too much at all if I could be lucky enough own one! John. | ||
| georgie_boy
Senior Member Username: georgie_boy Post Number: 738 Registered: 8-2005 |
Well said John! Seems that hum from older Alembics happens more outside theUK. When I got together with the Scottish gathering members, my Series bass was dead quiet, an she is from 1976. George | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 836 Registered: 11-2004 |
white cloud..yes you a definite right, I don't hate fenders, I own a lovely Squier Fender from the early 80's(even these have 'vintage' value now!) The fact is I have said Leo wanted to make these guitars and basses affordable to every kid who wanted to play rock 'n' roll and emulate the great Buddy Holly. he made them simple, with the simplest connection joint, a pocket, a block shape at the end of the neck and four screws with a spread plate and it bloody worked, my God did it work. The sound of P bass in the hands of James Jamerson is the end on all Motown records as well as Carol Kaye. The funky growl of Jaco on his Jazz, what I cannot understand is why people who pay huge amounts of dosh for these old instruments and to say whether they sound better is again maybe some sort of brainwashing that clouds our ears. As jimmyj says, it is down to what we all like personally. To give an example , I have been using a Peavey bass whilst my Alembic is away, its got two jazz style pu's, twin vols and tone and to be honest it sounds absolutley brilliant, it is my girlfriend's son's bass and I set it up but it has never been gigged so I thought I would air it in the live situation. So, maybe s wood is right that new materials, construction and components of today do make better instruments. | ||
| white_cloud
Senior Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 672 Registered: 11-2007 |
Spot on Terry, When I was referring to "some of the most important music ever recorded" I had James Jamerson in my mind as I typed it!! I also agree about a collective brainwashing - I own a wonderful 57 re-issue Fender Precision that to my ears sounds better than any vintage Fender I have ever owned and I have had a few! I read somewhere that Leo originally wanted to build a bass that players could use at "fighting" country & western bars - something that you could use to play good sounding bass lines, something that you could use as a bat to smash flying beer bottles back into the crowd with, something that you could use to fight your way through the bar to the exit at the end of the gig!!!! I think he succeeded and built the toughest basses ever conceived - have you seen many Fenders with snapped off headstocks?? Take a look at Gibsons with their fragile neck/headstock joints - I have seen countless (and one or two Alembics might I add) with "broken off" headstocks! Fenders are simple and solid but I guess that isnt in keeping at all with the subject matter of this thread. Funny thing is, Im also using a Peavey as a back-up bass live at the moment - it was really cheap but is almost as good as my Fender!! Perhaps you dont have to spend big nowadays to get a good axe!!! | ||
| serialnumber12
Senior Member Username: serialnumber12 Post Number: 412 Registered: 12-2004 |
whenever i pull out my 'very Old alembic' it literally makes jaws drop simply because most people have never-ever seen an alembic up-close & Bass players today don't see old alembics ever!!! so to actually touch one of the first ones ever built they automatically assume "that thing must be worth close to a million bucks?" I just tell'em ......yep it is! | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3834 Registered: 7-2004 |
My '76 Series I guitar and '77 Series I 12 string have never been "upgraded" electronically ... and they don't hum. Bill, tgo | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 838 Registered: 11-2004 |
The first Alembic I saw was on 'The Old Grey Whistle Test' a BBC music programme from the 70's. It RTF with Stan using his first brown bass(the one that was stolen). They were unheard of over in the UK..it was a mystical sound, nothing I or anyone had heard before. The first one I played was in the Bass centre in 1994, a Stan clarke Signature..it was awesome and in 1998 I eventually got my MK signature. Oh yes..it has arrived back from SIMS custom shop today with it's front LED's in red and let me tell you all..the work is impeccable..you think it had been done at Alembic. I will open a new thread with pics tonight or tomorrow for you all to see. | ||
| georgie_boy
Senior Member Username: georgie_boy Post Number: 742 Registered: 8-2005 |
Can't wait!! Does he do side LED's as well??? | ||
| hendixclarke
Senior Member Username: hendixclarke Post Number: 723 Registered: 6-2007 |
Barnes, who own Alembic #12? What am I missing? Please explain... | ||
| serialnumber12
Senior Member Username: serialnumber12 Post Number: 413 Registered: 12-2004 |
what can i say .........................Mr Ron Wickersham is a Wizard! | ||
| serialnumber12
Senior Member Username: serialnumber12 Post Number: 414 Registered: 12-2004 |
I'm just wondering were in the hell is serialnumber's 11,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1,.....they must worth a Million Bucks! | ||
| serialnumber12
Senior Member Username: serialnumber12 Post Number: 415 Registered: 12-2004 |
 Old alembics are worth Millions,dont let them fender freaks tell u differnt! | ||
| hendixclarke
Senior Member Username: hendixclarke Post Number: 724 Registered: 6-2007 |
Serialnumber12 = Keavin's Bass. Legend has it, he found it in the San Francisco Bay Area deep down under, in the Octopus Garden (in the shade)... I call this bass, one of the original "WOLF" ...because it started all the other Alembic breeds. This bass should be sent to the Smithsonian in DC, and preserved in a vacuum sealed chamber with 12 inch thick Plexiglas; for children of 1000 generations to see. | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 2423 Registered: 2-2006 |
I locked myself in my little studio last night and played for a few hours. Switching out on the 89 and the new S-2's. And they BOTH sound incredible. They sound very different but both good. And no RF on the 89. OO (Message edited by olieoliver on May 22, 2009) | ||
| sonicus
Junior Username: sonicus Post Number: 33 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hi serialnumber12 Thanks for the pic , I LOVE IT . Was that a product from the old Brady St location? I remember going there quite often back in the Seventies. This is a serious work of art. Wolf | ||
| jimmyj
Member Username: jimmyj Post Number: 70 Registered: 8-2008 |
Yeah, #12 is a sweet looking machine! A beautiful example of inspired Northern California technological innovation and the formative years of Alembic, Inc. That was an exciting time! Yes, Ron is a wizard, this is true. Friends, my comment about "hum" was not meant to infer that the older instruments are somehow compromised. The huge, open sound of the Series Alembics is in part due to the large single coil pickups. If they had used "humbuckers" it wouldn't have sounded the same. (Hey, I'm not putting these down either, whatever works for you is fine by me!!) But like a Fender Telecaster these single coil pickups tend to also hear whatever electromagnetic interference may be flying around the area and amplify that along with the sound of the strings. The brilliant scheme that Ron came up with to deal with this non-musical component of the signal was to use a shared hum canceling coil between the pickups and include accessible hum balance trim pots. A truly innovative idea! But because the two interacting coils are physically separated by more than an inch, they don't hear the EMI or RFI in exactly the same phase and thus can't perfectly cancel 100%. As it turns out, each bass is also slightly different electronically, or maybe magnetically... The exact placement of the pickups, the metal plates, screws, and maybe even the wood and glue are all factors in how much noise can be rejected by the circuit. Bill and Ollie may be lucky and have extra quiet instruments - or extra quiet environments. (I used to work in one poorly shielded studio here in LA where the lobby was the quietest room - so I would set up and play from there...) Recently, Ron had another stroke of genius and found a way to fine tune the hum rejection for each individual instrument further reducing the noise floor by something like 20dB. These must be the quietest single coil guitars on the planet! So the context for my comment was simply that the progress of Alembic instruments, their construction, design, and circuitry, has been linear. The NEW instruments are AT LEAST as incredible as the old instruments and noise rejection has in fact improved. Again I am only a player, a user of these great tools, I am not a collector and can't really think like one. So #12 might be worth a million bucks but only to those of us who hold it in that light. If I hit the lottery I would probably order a few new custom Series IIs before I started buying up #1 - #10 Alembics. But that's just me!!! Best to all, Jimmy J | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 486 Registered: 10-2006 |
serialnumber12 - a few queries if I may: So I know how to address you, is the name Barnes Ray or Ray Barnes? (I know what your profile says, but the other way would be more common, and I wouldn't want use the wrong name) Is that gorgeous scroll-cut yours? Is it #12? Because if it is, we seem to have 2 #12s around. Peter | ||
| hendixclarke
Senior Member Username: hendixclarke Post Number: 726 Registered: 6-2007 |
Yeah, that was my point too. I am totally confused... It was my understanding that Keavin own #12. Barnes name-tage is Serialnumber12... Then shows a vintage bass that is different from Keavin's bass. I am not sure what is what anymore. Who can solve this mystery? I say, let's have fun cracking this caper | ||
| chrisalembic
Junior Username: chrisalembic Post Number: 28 Registered: 3-2009 |
its the same man, just two different profiles ;-) | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 572 Registered: 3-2004 |
Keavin goes by a pseudonym? I didn't realize there was a need for cloak and dagger tactics on the Alembic forum . | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 851 Registered: 11-2004 |
okay I have asked this before on another thread, can someone explain why the wedge shaped pick ups??? Is it just a design additive or have they a functional electronic purpose?? Amyone??? | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3847 Registered: 7-2004 |
I'm guessing (educatedly, I hope) that the wider side of the pickup is for the wider waves that the lower strings create. And if I won the lottery, I'd buy both Alembics 1-10 and new customs. I mean, if you're going to win a lottery you might as well win a really big one! Bill, tgo | ||
| hankster
Advanced Member Username: hankster Post Number: 204 Registered: 6-2004 |
I think Jimmy is right - a major factor is whether there has been a major detrimental change in the manufacturing process (ie the CBS syndrome). I love my newer Alembic as much as the older ones I have played, but the post-ErnieBall musicman basses can't compare favourably to the pre-EB models. Etc. etc. etc. I also think that the differences time makes are likely more pronounced on acoustic instruments with more fragile thinner slabs of wood doing the lion's share of vibrating. But this is an interesting thread no matter what the reality is. Rick | ||
| wideload
Intermediate Member Username: wideload Post Number: 140 Registered: 6-2003 |
All I know is, I'm looking forward to the day I have played all the bad notes out of my bass, leaving only a lifetime of good ones! Larry | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 855 Registered: 11-2004 |
Bad notes in an Alembic??? I think not, my guess that installed all good ones when they were built at the mothership and left the bad ones out. | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 856 Registered: 11-2004 |
Bad notes in an Alembic!!!! I think they installed all the good ones when they built them at the mothership and left all the bad ones out | ||
| dela217
Senior Member Username: dela217 Post Number: 960 Registered: 6-2002 |
I think Bill is right. From what I've heard, the thought of the trapezoidal pickups was so the wider side of the pickup could produce the lower frequencies. Bartolini and Stars Guitars also made "traps" although they were encased in a rectangular pickup. Just the aperture was trapezoidal shaped not the housing. I think the Alembic traps look really cool. Here's my Alembic from 1972. I've had this one for 27 years. It seems to get better every time I use it.  | ||
| sonicus
Junior Username: sonicus Post Number: 35 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hello, terryc. You asked about the" wedge shaped pick ups'. Those in fact are known as "trapezoidal". I once had a Bass that had a beautiful pair of clear amber trapezoidal pick ups.I believe the shape is part of the intended design in regards to the frequency response characteristics from the low to higher pitches of the strings E/A/D/G, Ron or Mica will probably give you a better answer. This is a pic of my old bass that I sold around 1978.  (Message edited by sonicus on May 22, 2009) (Message edited by sonicus on May 22, 2009) (Message edited by sonicus on May 25, 2009) | ||
| pauldo
Intermediate Member Username: pauldo Post Number: 131 Registered: 6-2006 |
Michael - That is one SWEET lookin' bass. | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 863 Registered: 11-2004 |
these old basses look really funky!, very retro indeedy you lucky owners! | ||
| serialnumber12
Senior Member Username: serialnumber12 Post Number: 416 Registered: 12-2004 |
lets remember alembic IS the 'blueprint' of today custom electric guitars  | ||
| serialnumber12
Senior Member Username: serialnumber12 Post Number: 417 Registered: 12-2004 |
Alembic#12 sat on the Guitercenter Wall for over a whole year & nobobody would purchase her so i got the nerve up & sat that pretty mutha on my lap and here we are almost 30 yrs later!!! | ||
| serialnumber12
Senior Member Username: serialnumber12 Post Number: 418 Registered: 12-2004 |
okay my middle name is Keavin (kevin) my first name is 'Raymond' & my screen is serialnumber12  | ||
| serialnumber12
Senior Member Username: serialnumber12 Post Number: 419 Registered: 12-2004 |
I Love this bass!!!  | ||
| dadabass2001
Senior Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 1127 Registered: 6-2002 |
Dela's photo (also in Kev's post directly above) appears to be a promo for next weekend's Chicago gathering. Today I emailed Rick Cremer at Cremer Guitarworks to see if he or juelu might be interested in bringing out the Alembic super-custom 78-995 more on 78-995 I hope he does! Mike (Message edited by dadabass2001 on May 23, 2009) | ||
| hendixclarke
Senior Member Username: hendixclarke Post Number: 728 Registered: 6-2007 |
Once my Bass is finished, and I go to Santa Rosa to pickup my Toma_Hawk (Simulated picture below), I will hopefully attend the Alembic gathering out here in Northern California.  | ||
| jacko
Senior Member Username: jacko Post Number: 2239 Registered: 10-2002 |
Michael, that's a beautiful instrument. By the way, whatever happened to your flood damaged bass? was a decision ever made on whether it was going to be sympathetically resurrected or made 'as-new'? Graeme | ||
| 82daion
Advanced Member Username: 82daion Post Number: 213 Registered: 5-2005 |
IMO, the woodwork on the old basses is just as good as the new ones, having owned a '75 Series I. However, the old electronics are noisier, and the revised bridge that turned up in 1977 or so was a major, major improvement over the original "channel" design. In those regards, the newer basses are much better, and to me, would make finding a newer Alembic worth it were I to buy another one. The 70's basses do have an undeniable character, however, and there may be some "worth" associated with that intangible. | ||
| afrobeat_fool
New Username: afrobeat_fool Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2009 |
Serialnumber12. What an axe. The scroll reminds me of my Hyak, which I am working on getting back. Is it due to the fact they were both made my the same builder? I hope this is not a sensitive subject in the forum. As far as the value of old/new. The conversation dealing with classical instruments has given me thought to my 1880's german Bass Violin. The luthier I got it from, Don Kinch, pegged the top and back. His point was only after 75+ yrs the wood was stable enough to peg as the wood had stopped expanding and contracting. He did this work in the late 60's. I bought the bass in the 90's. I can see the seam lines interior, and the top and back have never moved. It is a 5/8 bass and it's quality of tone is warmer and larger than many larger basses of the era, that I have played. Question? Can we compare a strictly hollow, classical instrument like a stradivarius, with a laminate instrument, even with a hollow pocket? Oh yeah, God I wish I had a 70's alembic! Any one interested in selling? | ||
| hendixclarke
Senior Member Username: hendixclarke Post Number: 836 Registered: 6-2007 |
Hi Nick, Sounds like you have a great Violin. I would agree, the older the wood, the better. I also believe older Alembics are more valuable than newer ones and I say this, with a new one on order right now... (Eventually, my new bass will become a classic too ) I also love Alembic #12. I wish I had this bass or one like it. I like that bass so much, I dedicated a thread to it... What a honor to hold indeed. |
