| Author |
Message |
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq
Post Number: 3957
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 4:10 pm: |  |
Blazej:
As I stated above, I believe I know what I hear. Telling me I'm not hearing what I'm hearing isn't going to convince me, or anyone. And your description of Alembic electronics as "buffer amplifier made from cheap op amplifiers or transistors" only serves to prove that you have never actually cracked open an Alembic and eyeballed the electronics. Therefore, your opinion is at least partially based on faulty assumptions rather than fact. Enjoy your 70's Fenders - the almost universally recognized worst of all time.
Bill, tgo |
jos
Junior
Username: jos
Post Number: 20
Registered: 4-2009
| | Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 4:11 pm: | |
HI Guys! Yes quite interesting to read. I know many different producers like most of us an all of them have different taste. I know producers that do not like to use bass guitars at all. I know producers that loves Fenders then there are guys that likes everything that sounds good. Everyone have their own way to do things. Staring from what recording equipment to use there are so many different choices. Its great with all this discussion about Alembics if they are OK for studio or not. But if I did understand the thing with bolt-on basses right, then upright basses are useless… too much low frequencies and classical music is probably not good at all not to mention acoustic jazz. Upright basses are not bolt-on and they do have a wide tone like neck-through bass guitars.
Metallicas black album is recorded with an active neck-through Spector Bass, the album sound great. Marcus Miller used to use passive Fenders but have been using an active bass for 20 years and sounds now much better now. He also plays a neck through active Fodera fretless and sounds good.
Anthony Jackson plays neck through Fodera and sounds great.
Richard Bona uses neck-through active Fodera and sounds great. Flea did change to passive Fender basses for a few months but then quickly changed back to active basses because he needed more tone and punch.
It has been great to read all this…..
J-O-S |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 796
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 4:23 pm: | |
Ok, I had now collected myself...
I can't speak for Rock as a whole, but Alembic basses were choice basses and guitars for Parliament/Funkadelics during George Clinton's 70's hey-days. Rodney "Skeet" Curtis (Parliament-Funkadelic) was about the bass and the groove.
Knee Deep, Atomic Dog, One Nation Under A Groove, The Mothership Connection (If you hear any noise, it's just me and the boys..) Duke and Stanley also remixed this jam... Alembics and all...
The group, Rose Royce "Car Wash" Alembic.
Marven Isley - The Isley Brothers: "Who is that Lady...", Alembic bass blasting!
Jamaine Jackson (My God Bless him and his family...) Song "Let's get serious" Alembic
blasting!
Legendary funk bassist Louis Johnson, "Strawberry Letter 23", "Brotherman, "Q"
...and guess who produced and engineered the album... Quincy Jones. It's pretty clear, Alembic was not turned down from his authority....
Also, above all the facts I presented, I own an Alembic Series I and currently have another one being made so, I speak from my own experiences and recordings that your claims are faceless.
One more thing... The bass is quintessential to Soul, Jazz, Gospel, and R&B. This why you find the best techniques for bass, comes from those genre of music. Alembics will always have a home with me as they did with Quincy Jones production of the the Brother's Johnson, and Stanley Clarke too who would probably be an even stronger authority on basses in general.
(Message edited by hendixclarke on June 26, 2009)
(Message edited by hendixclarke on June 26, 2009) |
olieoliver
Senior Member
Username: olieoliver
Post Number: 2554
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 4:28 pm: | |
WOW, I see a HUGE can of worms opened here. One might as well walk into a biker bar with a Honda T-shirt and yell HARLEY SUX!
Seriously though, I respect your opinion of what you prefer Blazej, but I have to agree with Keith here. I have owned and still do own several different Fenders, Alembics, Warwicks Music Man and other basses and in my 35+ years of playing and recording I find my Alembics to be far more responsive to my articulation and dynamics. I do agree with you that they do have a wider range of sound than your average passive bass but they do have filters to adjust their range.
My only complaint, if you want to call it that, about my Alembics is I can't play sloppy. As for Alembics hiding poor technique, I find the total opposite to be true. I can get away with much more sloppy playing on my Fenders and MM basses (all mid 70's models) than I can on my Alembics.
And I have NO problem what so ever getting a fat bottom end with clear destinct notes.
I am in no way trying to be arguementive here either, as I said I respect your opinion and you are entitled to it but let me add that I would in no way be so rudes as to come into your studio and rag on your gear. Let's not forget whose house we're in.
Peace, Olie Oliver |
blazej_domanski
New
Username: blazej_domanski
Post Number: 5
Registered: 6-2009
| | Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 4:38 pm: | |
Jos
Bass guitar is barely audible on black album. Newsted also played with a pick to cut thru and he is still less audible then Burton or Robert T. mainly fingerstyle players...
also as Jim Roberts say in the book how fender bass changed the world the fender bass changed music because it was more audible than upright.
Also consider that in acoustic jazz and classical You do not have typical huge bass drum (rock or pop) to fight (or mixed with)
IBPSQ
Please compare alembic electronics To Millennia Media Avalon UA SPL Neve or other Hi tech Studio mastering quality gear. I read a lot of Rick Turner articles and I know what is inside... 70' fenders are recognized worst of all time for build quality not for tone... those are different aspects. |
germansal
Junior
Username: germansal
Post Number: 32
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 5:07 pm: | |
hi basstard about your comment ,two thinGs come to my mind:
your engineer have no idea of a real bass sound
and the second one is:YOU MUST LEARN HOW TO HANDLE YOR ALEMBIC BASS SOUND
REGARDS FROM SPAIN |
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq
Post Number: 3959
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 5:15 pm: | |
Blazej:
First of all, comparing Alembic electronics to a Neve board doesn't result in the Alembic system being made of cheap parts. Where did you read Rick Turner claiming Alembic uses cheap parts? Are you aware that Rick Turner has not been affiliated with Alembic for many years?
Second, your comparison missed the mark. Comparing onboard electronics to a high end studio gear? Well, if I'm playing a gig, the high end studio gear sitting in a studio somewhere is completely useless to me. You are comparing apples and oranges. I admit that an F-16 fighter jet is much faster than my Mazda Miata, but if I want to travel from Oakland to San Francisco, the Miata is infinitely more useful. And I'll match both build, playability, and tone of my '61 Strat against any 70's 3 bolt out there.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I can even understand (though I don't agree with it) your preference for Fenders. But when you make claims like Alembics aren't punchy or articulate, or that Alembics hide sloppy playing, I can only deduce that you have no experience with the instruments. One might reasonably argue that Porches are ugly overpriced cars, (not me), but when you start claiming they are slow and don't handle well, you lose all credibility.
Bill, tgo ("LBPESQ") |
keith_h
Senior Member
Username: keith_h
Post Number: 1316
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 5:49 pm: | |
I'll beg to differ on the quality of components. I am an Electrical Engineer by training. In the 70's I took my Fenders and made them all active. I designed and built the preamps. For these I used all mil-standard components. These are of much higher quality and lower noise than you will ever find in non-military equipment. The frequency response and clean signal far and away beats any of the passive abilities of the original instrument. If you wish to visit I can clearly show you on a scope.
You keep on bringing up Marcus Miller. He plays active basses and has for a number of years. Stu Hamm plays Fenders but guess what? They are active basses.
You have also said the bass hides in the mix. I have pointed out several bands where the bass is up front that play Alembics. I can add more if you like. The point is it is not the instruments fault if something gets hidden in the mix. It is either the musician or the engineer/producer that is at fault. As I said before I put a lot of it on the musician not knowing how his instrument works. I can also say that the trend for guitars to drop tuning has moved them into the traditional range for bass. This causes a conflict and muddy sound.
As a last thought I expect you remember all of those great Fender bass lines from the 60's and early 70's. Many of those were doubled by an organ as the Fender Bass was not full and loud enough. By doubling on the organ it brought the bass forward into the mix.
I'm glad you like your Fenders. I like the ones I have but they are not the be all, end all of bass guitars. There are many other brands that are as good or better. My take is if you like to play Fenders do so but respect the fact that not everybody wants to. After all why would we have all of the improved Fenders such as Lakland, G&L and Fedora if the Jazz Bass was the ultimate?
Regards, Keith |
blazej_domanski
New
Username: blazej_domanski
Post Number: 6
Registered: 6-2009
| | Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 5:55 pm: | |
Bill
Rick do not sait that it is cheap he only said what is inside and why.
I am only saying that onboard electronic is less sophisticated and much cheaper and therefore worse sounding then high quality studio gear. Therefore to retain whole quality of instrument You should be able to hard bypass it in the studio. I have compared 60ties fenders to 70ties models (both basses and guitars and did not find difference in quality of tone I prefere 70ties models because of hard ash and maple combinations. Punch and articulation from alembics I have had in the studio disappear in the dense mix as opposite to fenders. Mayby it was problem with the examples I have (it is hard to find many alembic basses in europe ( Ive played 5 and recorded 3. But the problem persist also with almost every alembic inspired bass (sandwitch neck thru with active electronics - most of them very expensive) except pedulla pentabuzz and rickenbacker (passive but neck thru) which record well. So please write me which model of alembic is most articulate and punchy. Opinion about hiding sloppy playing is not only mine those alembic players have a lot of problems with huge dynamic range of my jazz and all articulation details and I and other fender players have no articulation problem with alembic bases. All of those alembic players were definitely much better and technically advanced musicians then me but as they said playing fenders reveal for them their articulation problems. |
blazej_domanski
New
Username: blazej_domanski
Post Number: 7
Registered: 6-2009
| | Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 6:14 pm: | |
Keith - but Marcus bass is still bolt on Fender with high impedance passive pickups with bartolini TCT (Bypassable of course) buffer - He have not use sadowsky from many years. If You compare new instruments I can agree that lakland G@L or Mike Lull are far better than fenders but I do not find yet any new instrument with tone quality close to now more than 30 years old fenders. Wood was better those years and after 30 years of being played instrument do sound different. Keith if You made those onboard pre what was the power if it was 9 or even 18 volts it still would be not able to sound like studio gear especially with tube input stage.
There are many great soundings instruments but I think that alembic basses are specific tools not universal one.
Best Regards Blazej |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 797
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 6:46 pm: | |
I find it interesting that blazej has not listed his sound mixing equipment sources, nor does he even realize which Alembic models he'd found problematic.
This is ridicules...
Funny as heck... He writes:
"So please write me which model of alembic is most articulate and punchy"
How bout tell everyone which Alembic models you worked with...
(Message edited by hendixclarke on June 26, 2009) |
juggernaught
Advanced Member
Username: juggernaught
Post Number: 298
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 7:36 pm: | |
I find particularly troubling that blazej confused authority over what the bass should do in the mix with what is basically a preference or expectation of what the bass should do. He obviously has his preferences, exemplified by his cherry picking of artists i think who fit that bill but ignoring the masses of other successful bassists who don't quite fit his description. I personally find my Alembic fits the role in which I like to contribute to the music almost perfectly (I think I prefer active Foderas a hair more). And I never have had any complaints from any musician about my Alembic, including seasoned professionals, particularly from those who agreed with what type of role I wanted to fill. That's why I play Alembic. Because it fits great with the way I like to mix up with the guitars, drums, etc. And I've had no problems hearing the right thing from the mix. When I switch to other types of basses I feel like I have to tiptoe around to avoid getting the wrong types of sound (too boomy, too much bass).
I think that the types of bass roles/styles that blazej is attracted to are, among other things, descendants or relatives to the beatles, led zep, metallica, maybe r&b and blues, etc. Pop rock. And I can definitely can see the advantage of that since it's pretty much the dominant culture, especially in the states. But the goodness totally subjective. But for the way I like to play the music that I play (salsa, latin jazz, jazz fusion, afro fusion) the role of the bass is fundamentally different. These different types of roles I think encourage a preference of one type of bass over the other. That is not to say that salsa bassists don't use passive, but I honestly think their approach is different (how you place notes, fills, articulation, etc).
One good example is that there are some bassists who have a fit exactly in the mix, maybe blending with the drums or guitar approach while others prefer more of a "steamroller" (which some consider sloppy) approach. Both can be very successful in their own right, and I'm not sure are inherently better in any particular context (ie dance vs jazz vs whatever). I honestly think that these different roles encourage different instrument usage. Not to say that bass playing is limited to these types of descriptions but i think these are at least two contrastable roles.
I might be wary of you as a producer because you might not understand where I'm coming from on the bass. You might see this as a lack of experience on my part but I really think your preference in bass (type of sound reflecting role) is arbitrary. And your derogatory "bedroom players" makes me think that you're even prejudiced against types of bass playing...
Another thing that's troubling about the active electronics arguments are assuming that the studio mixer has the same access to frequencies as the onboard electronics before it gets converted to the 1/4 inch signal. I'm not expert, but this sounds false. I know that's not true if you have anniversary electronics unless you have a stereo out. |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 799
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 9:29 pm: | |
Years of solid recording - The tools of Stanley Clarke...
 |
cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member
Username: cozmik_cowboy
Post Number: 512
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 10:10 pm: | |
If any instrument, be it a state-of-the-art Alembic, an 18th century upright, a pennywhistle, or obsolete technology from the 1950s with lousy build quality from the 1970s, gets lost in the mix, you don't need a different instrument - you need a better engineer.
Peter |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 800
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 10:50 pm: | |
Listen to that bottom, yeah that's a bass.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x75e7c_the-brothers-johnson-strawberry-let_music |
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq
Post Number: 3960
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 11:49 pm: | |
Blazej:
You're still arguing that Porsches are slow and sloppy handling when you try and tell us that Alembics hide sloppy playing. I've been on this site for five years and have read many many posts from people who get their first Alembic and comment that it exposes their sloppy technique. We hear over and over again from people who confess that getting an Alembic forced them to play with better technique, myself included. I do not recall even a single post where someone said the Alembic hid their sloppy technique. Your claim of such is just wrong and everyone here knows it. Please tell us how many Alembics (not "other Alembic inspired basses") you've actually played, which models, and for how long. I suspect the answer is none, or almost none and for a VERY short period of time. And as for 60's Fenders, there's a HUGE difference between early 60's pre-CBS and mid to late 60's CBS instruments.
Bill, tgo |
jos
Junior
Username: jos
Post Number: 21
Registered: 4-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 12:38 am: | |
Hi Blazej! Who talks about recording only with a big bass drum or playing with a pick? We are talking about recording Alembic in a studio in general. In studios there are usually different productions going on not only certain kind of Rock music. Its important that you mention if you are talking about a certain song where you feel that the Alembic is the wrong instrument then its OK I do understand that. But otherwise…
J-O-S |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 801
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 1:11 am: | |
blazej_domanski,
Alembics has its own pure and distinctive acoustics sounds even without electric power.
No other bass can do this for me. |
karl
Intermediate Member
Username: karl
Post Number: 155
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 4:12 am: | |
Well, I have to say I hear a lot of sense in much (not all) of what Blazej has to say. I've definitely had that experience when called to sessions where I'll spend an hour with the engineer trying in vain to get a tone from my Alembic which will sit well in the mix, only to end up plugging in the studio Fender. In fact, I'm sure Blazej is right that the wide-band nature of the Alembic sound makes mixing these instruments far more problematic. I've found this when doing my own home recordings - without the correct tweaking, the Alembic immediately overpowers the mix, which makes everything sound muddy and ironically ends up hiding the Alembic in the mix. Plug in a Stingray and I can just play, no tweaking needed.
But this is the crux of the matter - I'd still rather use my Alembic, now I know how to use it in the studio. I've always been of the opinion that it's better to have those frequencies available and to filter them out if necessary, than not to have them and then to have to try to eq them back into the mix artificially at a later stage. So yes, the 'problem' is that an Alembic isn't really 'just' a bass, it's a full-range instrument. If you want it to do the job of a Fender bass in a mix, you need to be careful to filter out those higher frequencies that Fenders simply don't produce. And if that's too much hassle, then you're free to just plug in your Fender or Musicman . . .
But I'd definitely disagree with Blazej about active electronics hiding sloppy technique: nothing shows up every nuance of my playing like my Alembic - every touch, every slide, a badly trimmed nail - you can hear it all on the Alembic. |
olieoliver
Senior Member
Username: olieoliver
Post Number: 2555
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 7:04 am: | |
I see 3 scenarios in the studio;
1. The studio hires me to do session work for their clients in which case I would play what ever the person at the console wanted me to.
2. The artist hires me to into the studio with the in which case I would play what ever the artist wanted me to. If they put control of that in the booth then so be it, the cat at the console has control again.
3. I or my band hires the studio to record our music, or demo CD in which case I’d play what ever I wanted to play. I would politely decline any suggestion to use another instrument.
I would NEVER be rude though. I often wonder why the music industry is inundated with such rudeness. Not all but a LOT in the business can be and are very rude.
I guess I must be doing something wrong with my Alembic basses. I've had them in the Studio multiple times and never have I had a problem getting a good sound or making the engineer or producer happy.
OO |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 802
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 9:07 am: | |
If anyone is truly serious, and very concerned on this topic, I would give the following studios a call:
Electric Ladyland Studios in New York, and/or The Mad Hatter Studios in California. Those organizations lad many Alembic tracks and have a wider scope on sound.
Sorry, I will not be giving "my man" (Blazej) a call to help me, nor will I recommend him to touch the controls of any Alembic for that matter. To do so, would be disastrous, for he was honest enough to say so.
I love honesty. |
briant
Advanced Member
Username: briant
Post Number: 339
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 10:59 am: | |
There were so many statements made in that original post by our new friend "Blazej" that are either: a.) completely incorrect, b.) comparing apples and oranges, or c.) misunderstanding electronics... that I'm not even going to waste my time with this anymore.
Everyone stop feeding the troll. |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 803
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 11:27 am: | |
Let's put this to a vote Alembicans!
Those who agree, "Blazej" is a Troll say "I"...
Those who say "Blazej" is not a Troll, say "Nay"...
Hal-
(Message edited by hendixclarke on June 27, 2009) |
elwoodblue
Senior Member
Username: elwoodblue
Post Number: 727
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 11:58 am: | |
I agree Briant,
Hal, let's just play some music and forget about it.
I wish I was at the gathering today...oh, that's another thread. : ) |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 804
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 12:10 pm: | |
Wow, the torrance here is amazing.
This guy could say: Alembics shouldn't had never been made, and people are cool...
I asked this guy to list his recording equipment for gaining substantive facts with some references, and he produces nothing...
Yeah, I think he's a troll. |
juggernaught
Advanced Member
Username: juggernaught
Post Number: 299
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 1:04 pm: | |
I don't think he's a troll and his comments are certainly legitimate and valuable in their own right. But they're completely based on what I think is his own sense of what the role of the bass is. For his purposes, Fender probably fits the bill really well.
The basis for this hypothesis is my own personal experiences. I play Alembic and I never have problems making it come out in the mix (in a 11 piece Salsa band for that matter) the way I play. But I also recognize that there are bass players that play very different from me (not necessarily better), many of them who play Fenders. And it sounds great. And I'm not terribly convinced it would sound exactly the same type of good on an Alembic.
What is a bit off is the claim that Fenders are somehow more universal basses than Alembic. I know I can get Fender-like sounds from my Alembic, though certainly not perfectly, but the other way around is just not possible. The only way that you can believe in the universality of Fenders is if you have a bias for a certain type of bass player/role.
His preferences certainly are not without merit: they're more or less in line with most popular American music from the last 40 years or so. But from a musical standpoint I cannot see an inherent musical advantage to adhering to that. Only cultural/economic, such as playing with a well established band seeking that type of sound. But if you limit yourself, you limit yourself. It's best to be able to be versatile.
This similar type of thing occurs with jazz/bluegrass/salsa musicians in the old upright vs electric argument. Some people just want/expect what uprights are good at doing, despite the fact that there are innumerable electric bass players in those genres. Cuban purists would claim that the only type of bass is upright, but if Eliades Ochoa (from Buena Vista Social Club) can play with an electric bass player then it must be OK. |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 805
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 1:21 pm: | |
I read this stuff and laugh...
Here's another Alembic Bass run... to extend the the Alembic bass vocabulary...
LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN AND LEARN!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrWqli5cq1E
"Why do I even CARE" (sometimes I ask myself)! |
blazej_domanski
New
Username: blazej_domanski
Post Number: 8
Registered: 6-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 2:09 pm: | |
Hal:
The alembic basses I have been recorded during the years were five string series II, 4 string epic and stanley signature. My setup included: Demeter and Aguilar Tube Di SWR SM 900 Ampeg SVP Pro Millennia media Origin, NS2EQ, Alan Smart C1, fatso, LA2A, Twincom, Neve 1073 MM HV3D and focusrite red (and many more) and multi miked aguilar, Eden and SWR 4x10 or 2x10 cabinets. Most of the equipment I have been using is listed on my myspace, but I suppose You were to lazy to check Troll myspace. It was dense film score and heavy prog record. It ended that the bassplayers asked me to give them my old fender or used theirs because they were not happy with sound of their instruments after they hear my bass during direct comparison. I did my best to find great tone of alembic basses but fender still beat them. One of the guys sell his bass shortly after the session. After this I recorded rather pop acoustic ballad stuff with one of those players and alembic sound great in those kind of music.
You have to agree that most of the 70ties and late 60ties funk were recorded with fenders not with alembic basses. Even if it was used for George Clinton it is minority (about 1%) not majority of great sounding bass lines from that period. If Alembic basses were so great every serious player would smash his fender and buy alembic... but the true is that majority of bass players still prefer fender or fender inspired instruments. Also notice that some famous players and a lot of others who uses alembic basses in the 80ties slap era start to play fender those years (I have seen Mark King with a jazz bass ).
Briant misunderstanding electronics? I have been studying electronics and sound engineering for 7 years and have Wroclaw Technical Institute Diploma. Please do not treat me as a Troll because I have different opinion then yours.
I agree that alembic can be great for latin kind of music. I also plan to record basstard alembic using many setups and compare it with different basses in dense mixes. This would be very interesting. I am here because I want to be open minded and I think this discussion widening my horizons.
Bill I have been played five alembic basses 3 mentioned above for rather short period of time but I think enough time for producing an opinion. I have also played my friend 4 string essence for more than two monts, and another one (do not know the name) during music messe in frankfurt. Mayby it is not enough time for learning how to use them correctly but I have not a problem to use or record other basses for example switching from Jazz to Pbass or Pedulla Rapture and even Rick almost immediately after picking them. The main problem with alembic basses were the fact that all of them were less articulate than my maple hard ash jazz with badass II bridge and even basstard notice the difference. They also tend to sound muddy during record and live performance compared directly to my jazz |
blazej_domanski
New
Username: blazej_domanski
Post Number: 9
Registered: 6-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 2:18 pm: | |
hendrix:
If we talking about santana:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmVEktTW3a4
LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN AND LEARN! |
jos
Junior
Username: jos
Post Number: 22
Registered: 4-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 2:44 pm: | |
If someone still thinks Alembic basses do not work properly or something I suggest that you go and buy the James Taylor DVD “At The Beacon Theatre” listen to Jimmy Johnson’s bass sound. He plays together with a drummer with a huge bass drum and everything sounds just great. To be really honest I have never heard a better bass sound for this kind of music and it sounds as good on studio CDs.
I think that Jimmy has proved and showed us that Alembic basses are just amazing and works really well for studio and live jobs.
If somebody in this business thinks that the bass sound on this DVD does not work I think he should go and play football or do something else…
Now we can have peace…
J-O-S |
chrisalembic
Junior
Username: chrisalembic
Post Number: 38
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 2:54 pm: | |
easy guys,...its good to have diversity.. with anything.. be it music, peoples' opinions or bass sounds,.. personally i am very happy that both Leo Fender and the Wickershams have expressed their ideas of how a bass guitar should sound, look and feel like.. and i am also very happy to listen the music and sound of guys like Stanley or Jaco. Looking at that I think both Alembics and Fenders have their right of existence. |
juggernaught
Advanced Member
Username: juggernaught
Post Number: 300
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 3:16 pm: | |
I can't shake the feeling that you're objectifying something that is fraught with subjective factors. You can't talk about articulation (or indeed muddiness, coming out in the mix, etc) without talking about the bass's role in the context of the other instruments in the mix. I feel that by bass gets better articulation for how I play my bass with the people I play with. So automatically I think that your arguments are not as comprehensive as you would lead us to believe.
Have you thought about the idea that maybe your lack of success with Alembics may have to do with your preference with how the bass, and just as importantly the other instruments, are brought into the mix? I'm not saying that you're not open to different mixing but you may be a "victim" of your own preferences in some systematic way which you may not be aware of. You may have a quanitifiable set of expectations, which inherently involve a complex relationship between all the instruments, such that Alembics don't fit so well. In this sense, you, as a musical experimenter, are effecting the results of the experiment.
The only reason I say this is I've heard tons of recordings and live stuff where the Alembic came out awesome (off the top of my mind Disco Volante and California from Mr Bungle come to mind). I've had a lot of success playing with others Alembics achieving a sound that we all love. And if it still sounds weak to you, maybe that's just your preference. Maybe you like to hear the bass and the other instruments do other things than I do.
I think the argument that "if Alembics were so great, then everyone would be playing them" assumes that people play instruments for purely musical reasons. You must admit you know that isn't true. My experience is that most people, whether they know jack about basses or not think Fender is the shit. And I always point them to Sadowsky (also available in passive, ash, etc), which to my ear is just as good at achieving the Fender sound, and you wont have to worry about that neck buckle at the 18th fret in 5 years due to 40 year old construction techniques (if I believe what my guitar tech tells me).
As far as Fenders, you can't just ignore the cultural factors that have led the Fender sound, and indeed the Fender style of playing to be widely accepted. I'm not sure this remotely implies an inherent goodness of Fenders in a mix of any particular type of music, unless you include economic and cultural factors that might increase success (such as playing a certain way with a guitar play who's used to a certain type of bass playing. That might, however, affect people's understanding of what instruments *should* do in relationship to each other.
And once again, I've heard some great jazz bass. But if I was in that person's position I would approach the music in a different way, just based on what I like to hear. |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 806
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 3:22 pm: | |
Fender Basses are simply inferior in construction, wood, paint, electronics, hardware (EVERYTHING).
Unless they are added to extra effects, or pickups were gutted out, those basses are weak, flaccid, and frankly terrible. Everybody I know, with them had changed the original electronics and pickups.
I had never heard anyone in my circles, do this with an Alembic.
Buying a Fender Bass, is the first step toward changing the stock parts. Its almost the natural thing to do...It's even encouraged by most Fender Bassist... Jaco customized his Fender Bass too.
I guess, Fender just can't get it right on the first run... |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 807
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 3:57 pm: | |
I am not pitting Alembic vs Fender, for I already chosen the winner (2) decades ago. The battle is over (far as I am concern...)
However, even feeling the way I do; about my admiration for Alembic basses and the people that make them, I would NERVER go to a Fender club site, and say: Fenders are inferior and here are my reasoning...
In my heart, I think of people at Fender (over there) are happy, and they appear to be happy with their Fenders, LEAVE THEM ALONE!
If I am competing for a bass part, and the other guy uses the Fender, that's different (for I will create sounds yet heard...) GAME ON!
(Message edited by hendixclarke on June 27, 2009) |
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck
Post Number: 8264
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 10:26 pm: | |
Hi Blazej, welcome to the board!
Here are a few thoughts about this thread.
In reading through the discussion I've noticed a few posts that appear to fall outside the posting guidelines. I've just reread the posting guidelines and they clearly say to "treat all members with respect and kindness". Blazej is a new member here, and while we may disagree with his opinions, that does not mean we should not treat him with respect and kindness. In my view, treating someone derisively is outside of the spirit of this board. Again, it is certainly understandable that we may disagree on various issues, but we can disagree civilly. Derisiveness reflects poorly on our community and does not contribute anything to the discussion.
Blazej; my apologies. While I am sure you expected to find that many of us would disagree with your assessment of Alembic instruments, and almost all of our members here have given their opinions quite civilly, I hope that you have not formed a poor initial impression of our community based on one or two posts. Sometimes people react and post without taking the time to think about what they are saying and how they are saying it. And it's certainly understandable; it's a habitual way of dealing with the world around us that we pick up early on in life. But our community here has found that this board is a much more enjoyable place when we treat each other respectfully, and for the most part, our discussions here are quite civil. We really are a great group of people, sharing a love for music and our instruments. And usually, it's a great place to hang out, no matter what the topic.
If any one of our members is having trouble remembering the posting guidelines, please read them again.
Thanks everyone, and enjoy your day. |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 808
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 12:30 am: | |
"You have to agree that most of the 70ties and late 60ties funk were recorded with fenders not with alembic basses."
TOTALLY FALSE!
Sly and the Family Stone in the 60's, their bass player Larry Gram invented slap and pop, and his main instrument was NOT a Fender bass. It was a Vox Apollo.
Jermaine Jackson (remember him from the Jackson 5) used Gibson EB-0 on every Motown Renaissance Classic Jackson 5 record and in video. After Jermaine went solo, its debut Album was this: This album picture was taken somewhere 1976.
Wow, just imagine the kind of recording equipment was used back in those days, compared to the advances now, and you say your having recording issues in modern times with Alembics?
LOL
 |
basstard
Advanced Member
Username: basstard
Post Number: 290
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 3:45 am: | |
Oh my, I've created a monster...
1. Jan-Olof and Jimmy J - thank you so much for chiming in! An insight from internationally acclaimed musicians with decades of studio and stage experience is invaluable!
2. Błażej - siemasz :-)
3. Blazej is NOT a troll. He's a very good recording engineer, highly respected here in Poland (please, no Polish jokes ;-)). However, just like most of you, I disagree with about 90% of his opinions. BUT! I agree that Alembic basses aren't for everything (nor are they for everyone). And yes, his Jazz Bass is a total monster in terms of tone and response to articulation. And yes... it was modified (Badass II bridge, I'm suspecting new pickups, probably new pots) by Blazej himself ;-)
I think that a Fender bass is still a standard worldwide - this basses, especially the Jazz Bass, have a kind of tone that simply fits every kind of music - but, as I've already said, there is much much more to the world of beautiful bass sounds than just the Fenders and Fender-inspired instruments (btw, I've had an opportunity to check out an F-Bass VF5 - this may well be the ultimate modern Jazz Bass derivate!). Everything has its place in the world - thank you Chris (Chrisalembic) for pointing that out :-)
Blazej - one more thing: you've asked about the punchiest Alembic model. While I've never played one, I suspect it might be the Excel, due to its set-in design and ash body. I'd love to check one out. And the Orion EMW (http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_emw.html) would be quite interesting tp try for you, I suspect ;-) |
white_cloud
Senior Member
Username: white_cloud
Post Number: 706
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 4:20 am: | |
Yet more pathetic and childish swipes at Fender.
Guys, you paid your money and made your choice ...so why cant you enjoy the finest basses in the world without feeling so insecure as to feel the need to trash other makers? For your information Leo Fender changed modern music, from James Jamerson to Duck Dunn to Jaco Pastorius to Geddy Lee to Eric Clapton to Jimi Hendrix (you reading this Hal?) to Stevie Ray to Buddy Holly to Pete Townsend - the list could easily go on and on and on all day long!
Never underestimate the business sense of factory mass producing a range of affordable instruments with a great, simple design that works great and sounds good. Never understimate the psychological impact on aspiring players seeing their peers making musical history on said instruments!
Alembic ARE the pinnacle of musical electronics, definitely the Rolls Royce of basses in my honest opinion - but most cant afford them. To compare a mostly handmade bass against a mass produced factory one is a ridiculous arguement and it holds no water. Of course it wont be technically as good, but magic can still be made on a simple instrument!
Sure Leo made em cheap and stacked em high to undercut the much more expensive Gibson brand but thank god he did. And who cares if Fender players upgrade their instruments, it makes the instrument more personal to the owner then good luck to them if it gives them pleasure!
This thread displays some very bad examples of musical snobbery imho.
Just remember folks, one mans meat is another mans poison.
Tolerance is a human virtue and would not go amiss here!
John. |
georgie_boy
Senior Member
Username: georgie_boy
Post Number: 820
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 4:38 am: | |
Well said John!! |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 810
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 8:19 am: | |
"You know what Hal,
... you need to upgrade/downgrade your furniture, before I can sitting down and enjoy my tea with you..."
Then sit on the oldest thing in my house...
"And what is that?"
The floor. |
basstard
Advanced Member
Username: basstard
Post Number: 291
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 9:34 am: | |
John - these are the words of wisdom. While we all agree that Alembic makes basses and guitars that make us the happiest, Fender (and a good number of other manufacturers) still makes very good instruments which can serve as solid workhorses. I especially agree with the modifying = personalizing bit.
But then I can also see why some of us get so enraged: it's because of the way Blazej states his opinions. He's a knowleadgeable, experienced studio engineer (and a very good bassist too) but he's really opinionated - and it can be hard to bear for some. Just think of Jeff Berlin. Phenomenal bassist? Of course he is. A man of experience? Indeed. But by Jove, the way he expresses his views (which hold some validity more often than not) is a real pain in the a**! ;-) |
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq
Post Number: 3963
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 9:59 am: | |
I really don't think anyone here begrudges Blazej's right to express his opinion, nor has anyone been rude to him regarding any reasonable opinion he has expressed. The problem, if there is one, stems from his unreasonable, empirically fallacious "opinions", and I'm specifically referring to his statements regarding Alembic instruments' lack of articulation and hiding sloppy technique. If I can analogize to the world of sports, it would be reasonable to express an opinion that Shaquille O'Neil is a bad basketball player, but it would be equally unreasonable and empirically inaccurate to express an opinion that he is short. Blazej's comments regarding articulation and sloppy technique fall in the latter category.
Bill, tgo |
briant
Advanced Member
Username: briant
Post Number: 342
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 10:33 am: | |
Fine.
blazej: you're not a troll.
Feel better?
As for the other statements that you made that are so completely incorrect or just personal bias - well that just like, your opinion, man. |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 811
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 11:02 am: | |
Yes, Fender Basses (in the heyday) were more expensive than my Sears catalog Fender "Copy".
I remember students in my music class (in Jr High) asked before I played a note:
"Is that a Fender?... Oh!, that's a copy... ah haaa, man your parents can afford to get you a real bass? haaahaaa haaa!"
Some might think those kids were elitist.
I paid for the bass myself, (I wouldn't burden my parents for the money) doing this, gave me a sense of ownership pride.
What they didn't know, I really wanted a Gibson EB-0 with the pickup selector switches. So again, those kids didn't even hit a nerve.
However, after giving my PAN away, my Father bought me Fender P bass (as a birthday gift), and discovered to my surprise my so-called Fender copy (PAN) sounded better, than the original.
HOW is this possible, (I thought as a child).
My cheap Fender Copy, copy sounded better than the original.
Any cheaper Alembic copies out there, sounding better than a real Alembic?
[Crickets chirpings of peace...]
Hal- |
white_cloud
Senior Member
Username: white_cloud
Post Number: 710
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 11:29 am: | |
Hal,
Of course there are Fender copies out there better than a Fender - Sadowsky and Lakland make superb Fender copies straight off the shelf that are better than Fenders - but thats missing the whole point.
You cant compare Fenders to Alembics.
I will throw it back to you - are there any other high end, hugely expensive handmade custom basses out there that sound better than an Alembic? You may not think so but there are many Fodera players and Ken Smith players and Zon players etc etc etc who would argue that their axes easily compete with Alembic!
Its easy to trash Leo Fenders basses but wether it sits well with you or not his name is emblazoned into rock, jazz, blues, country history....and very importantly most folk can aspire to the same Fender that their idol uses (think of the Geddy Lee/Marcus Miller models)
Basstard, many thanks for the kind comment but its not really wisdom its simply stating a truth. I agree with you about Jeff Berlin entirely - simply wonderful player but a extremely rebelious and outspoken guy.
Blasej and Hal both state their opinions in their own way and its our right to disagree - but at the end of the day that is their truth.
Who is right and who is wrong? I think that if you hold onto your own truth nobody elses really matters!
John. |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 812
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 12:51 pm: | |
I am not going to choose a bass for it's "sounds alone..."
The bass can sound like (100) of the top basses rolled into one package; if the bass is uncomfortable on my body, (in any way(s)-shape(s) or form(s)) their creators can keep them.
I want a bass that fits me, and made for me. That company is Alembic PERIOD. Yeah, I am bias. I paid for my bias in cash.
People pay a lot of money for Alembics; and for someone to say Alembics shouldn't had been made, and we still maintain a civil discussion, is a beautiful thing. It shows just how good Alembics are Yeah, I am spending what took me 20 years to save!!!!
(Message edited by hendixclarke on June 28, 2009) |
jedisan
Member
Username: jedisan
Post Number: 88
Registered: 3-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 1:49 pm: | |
Oh boy, here we go again... Just wanted to sign up for the thread. |
bsee
Senior Member
Username: bsee
Post Number: 2379
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 3:46 pm: | |
John, those comments can easily be applied to either side of this conflict with slight alteration. Why would owners/proponents of the most numerous basses in the world feel the need to pick on a small boutique maker? No one is blameless here, and as much as some posters may have been aggressive in response, what did Blazej expect with the post he made? Go tell a mother that her baby is ugly. Think you'll get an amicable response? Think if you do that 100 times, you won't get something thrown at you at least a few times? Blazej may not intentionally be a troll, but he did serve that purpose so accurately that I was wondering if he were a real person for a while. The posts were too aggressive to be believable, but sometimes fact is stranger than fiction. There's a world of difference between: "Your Alembic basses are almost useless in the studio" and "I have tried recording Alembics on several occasions and I just can't get the sound I'm looking for from them. Does anyone have experience with the sorts of tricks one needs to apply for a Fender guy to record Alembics well?" Part of respecting others is respecting their feelings and opinions and not insulting them any more than you would directly insult the individual.
The two companies are no more in competition than Mercedes and Scion. They both make a product that does the same sort of thing, but the approach and result are so different, there's no comparison or competition between the products. They serve completely different markets.
There's no doubt in my mind that a capable musician working with a capable engineer can get wonderful tone out of either instrument on stage or in the studio. This has been proven over and over. The techniques have to be a little different and the artists need to know their tools, but that's true with anything.
-bob |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 813
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 4:32 pm: | |
When you consider all the endorsement dollars Fender spent on acquiring performers "to promote only Fenders guitars and basses" (regardless to quality) in the end, consumers are the ones that get "played".
They say, "you can trust our instruments because this famous person also uses our instruments..."
What they don't tell you, is how much money they are paying the performer(s) to keep their mouths closed on quality.
In the end, consumers are the ones that get "played".
So, seeing a famous name playing a Fedora, Fender, Music Man, Ricky is appealing to some, but as for me, I look to everyday people, and my research to get the truth -- ruth.
(Message edited by hendixclarke on June 28, 2009) |
jacko
Senior Member
Username: jacko
Post Number: 2308
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 4:34 pm: | |
Well said Bob. It's very easy for us all to rise to someone who appears to being delliberately antagonistic.
IMO, the main reason we see so many Fenders being used in the studio is down to cost and education. I doubt if many of the current crop of 'pop' musicians would know an alembic if it smashed into their face.
on a tangent, if the fender bass was the epitome of bass design, why did Leo bring out the Stingray and the G&L. Cold he perchance have been trying to improve his original design?
graeme (the enigmatic one)
p.s. played 2 huge gigs this week and was complimented on my sound on both occasions. I haven't played my fender live since 1996 ;-) |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 814
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 5:15 pm: | |
Leo Fender created Stingray bass for Louis Johnson.
http://www.videosift.com/video/Louis-Johnson-How-To-Thump-a-Bass |
keith_h
Senior Member
Username: keith_h
Post Number: 1317
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 6:32 pm: | |
I've been busy and just got caught up on this thread again.
I think Fenders have their place as has been stated they have a natural low mid bump that is easy to locate in a mix. Many other basses cover this same frequency range but you have to handle it in the mix down. In other words it takes a little work to fit a full range instrument into a mix as opposed to a limited range instrument.
I think Blazej has brought up something several times without realizing it's importance. Especially with this group of people where it is close to everyday discussion. That something is the effect of the body and neck woods on the overall bass sound. To a lesser extent he has also brought up the effect of the bolt on neck. He appears to prefer ash bodies with maple necks. That with a bolt on neck will give you a good low mid range bump. That same combination with a set neck will give you a good low mid bump and better sustain. I know this from experience and comparison since my Fenders are ash bodies with maple neck as is my fretless Orion. This is not the case with my Brown Bass where the tone is much more even across the spectrum. However I can adjust the filters and Q-switches to emphasize this area to pretty good effect. The point I think he is missing is this is not the sound everybody wants nor should we.
My Brown Bass was specifically made with different neck and body woods for a reason. The selection of woods and neck through was intended to provide a certain tone and response. Likewise I picked certain woods in my forth coming Series 1
for their tonal characteristics (others were for their looks). Neither of these basses sound like my Orion nor were they intended to sound all the same. This is why I own more than one bass and have custom ordered two of the three. Here is a link to my Orion if anyone is interested.
As I said above we talk frequently about the type of woods used and how they affect the sound on the basses. We also to a lesser extent discuss bolt vs set neck vs neck through design. Perhaps Blazej doesn't realize these same relationships as we do so assumes Alembics are designed as a one size fits all like Fender basses are.
I think Olie summed it up well above when he said it realy comes down to who is paying who to do what.
As far as the quietness of my preamp goes I'm sure it is quieter than any commercial product out there. Plus they have been hardened to make it through nuclear fallout. :-) The op amps were the same ones used in some military avionics/enemy recognition systems I worked on when I used to work for a government contractor. Not to mention tubes are inherently variable on their quality and tolerances and that can have a significant effect on signal to noise ratios. I think the real reason folks get hung up on tubes is the natural compression that takes place once you start to drive the tube into saturation.
Keith |
jakebass
Member
Username: jakebass
Post Number: 78
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 1:03 am: | |
I have had Wal, Warwick, Blade, Fender and Alembic (I do still have fender Jazz but with new pups) I'm a little surprised that the main voice against Alembics here has not found an Alembic/Player who can give him exactly what he wants. I can dial all sorts of tones into my MK5 Deluxe. I have used it in studios on a number of occasions, I do understand though, when a producer wants a certain sound for a certain style, sometimes it's sophisticated sometimes it's Fender (not meaning that Fender can't be sophisticated) and sometimes it's upright bass. I try to do them all.
But to my mind here is the most important thing. Of all the instruments I have played over the years I have settled on Alembic because that is the sound that suits my playing so when I hear it back it sounds like me. Other basses have never come close, the point here is that since having an Alembic I have been more encouraged to work on my music (with I think good results) because I'm getting the sound I want. It's exactly the same when amplifying my upright, it's a difficult beast to capture exactly and when the right sound is hard to come by so are the right notes. Somebody said earlier, attempts are being made here to make objective assertions in an otherwise subjective matter. This will make for a circular argument, although I'm enjoying being taken through the various thought processes that result from the matter.
Finally, when employed as a bass player I will do my utmost to give the employer what they want, surely thats a big part of the job, Alembic or no Alembic... |
adriaan
Senior Member
Username: adriaan
Post Number: 2255
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 1:31 am: | |
Blazej's postings also suggest that he has a very specific rig into which he wishes to plug the bass. Even if it is the perfect rig for a Fender, it will simply not be perfect for an instrument with a different character, like an Alembic.
I was also wondering about his preference for "vintage" gear, which to my mind works best in plug-it-in-and-just-stick-a-decent-mike-in-front-of-the-speaker mode, not with a whole chain of attenuators and the plug-to-jack signal detoriation that comes with it. |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 815
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 5:08 am: | |
The best records of a great bass sound for me, is capturing the full essence, via open mic to speakers.
I would never in my right mind, pug any bass directly into the a direct line recording channel and depend 100% on the mixing controls.
It works great for the human voice too, being that we are not born with 1/4" input connections |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 816
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 6:46 am: | |
It's Monday,
The birds will still sing; flowers will still bloom; children will still play; lovers will continue to love; and if you mess around with a bee, you might just get stung.
I am done on this thread... It was fun.
(Message edited by hendixclarke on June 29, 2009) |
jazzyvee
Senior Member
Username: jazzyvee
Post Number: 1561
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 9:07 am: | |
i thought the way this thread was going we were going to have your theory about humans not being born with 1/4" input connections put to the test.... :-)
This was great reading and a great learning thread.
Jazzyvee |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 817
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 10:02 am: | |
White_Cloud:
"Hal,
Of course there are Fender copies out there better than a Fender - Sadowsky and Lakland make superb Fender copies straight off the shelf that are better than Fenders - but thats missing the whole point.
You cant compare Fenders to Alembics."
I can't compare something I did yet own... I had yet to even understand "what an Alembic was" -- way back in those days.
Also, there were no elaborate "cutting edge" Fender copies in 1975-76 in Sears catalogs.
I had a Sears special, for goodness sake, and it was tested better than my real Fender P..
Comparing an Fender to an Alembic? What's an Alembic? (I was only 12 years old...).
The point was... I owned one of those "good-old 1970's Fenders" and it couldn't compete for my attention, compared to my "Sears and Roebuck" $78.00 special....
HA hAAAH haaaaah Aaaaah Aaaah AHHaAAAAah eh!!!!
Forgive me for laughing so hard... I hope our new friend laugh with me, for I am not laughing at him, I am laughing at the memory I had as a kid learning a deep lesson where my folks got ripped off by going by going only by a name brand -- They meant well, I assure you... but it happened so long ago, it brought up great memories.
Anyway, like I said, I was mad as heck for giving away my Pan to my cousin. I asked about the bass many years ago, and his mother put it out on the lawn on their garage sale.
It's cool. |
white_cloud
Senior Member
Username: white_cloud
Post Number: 711
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 12:01 pm: | |
"John those comments can easily be applied to either side of the arguement with slight alteration"
Bob - that is exactly as I intended! If you look at my thread it is plain to see I am not taking sides at all...merely aplying some perspective as I see it - through my eyes...as I am entitled to as a club member.
Graeme, you have admitted previously here at the club that you have very little experience inside a recording studio...so Im not entirely sure where your concrete opinion on this subject is formed!
Having said that there is an element of truth in your statement, albeit it has not come from your direct personal experience as such.
Hal - all conflicts of all types are at some level based in insecurity and fear. Blasej's comments are rooted in his jealousy/fear of Alembic and you and others react in such a strong way because for some reason you have insecuritys and fear against anyone criticising your favourite brand of bass.
Be confident in your Alembics and rise above such things...after all does it REALLY matter that the whole world doesnt worship Alembic? Really?
And on a final note you may believe that Jaco Pastorius and Jimi Hendrix and all the others may well have been sponsored by Fender to "keep their mouths shut" and play Fender instruments despite what they really thought of them - but I find it hard to believe that Jaco, for only one example would stick religiously to his seriously beat up old 62 Jazz when Fender AND LOTS OF OTHER COMPANIES actually supplied him with many many shiny new basses!
Keep it real dudes.
John. |
jacko
Senior Member
Username: jacko
Post Number: 2313
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 1:15 pm: | |
John. If you check my first post on this thread you'll see that I said 'Limited' which is not 'very little'. In point of fact, it may or may not be many hours more than several of our fellow club members but it's obviously not on the same scale as the likes of Jimmy Johnson or John judge, and none of the work I have done has been released, being for my own purposes or as demos for the many bands I've been in. However, the point remains that a good sound engineer should be able to EQ any type of bass regardless. I have recordings from the late 70's where I used my fender and they sound good. I have recordings from the mid 90's using the same bass - different studio and they also sound good. I have recordings from just after I bought my epic made at the same studio which sound good. I have recordings from recent sessions (i.e. in the last 3 years) which also sound good. These all sound great because we've always chosen to spend time with the engineer discussing our requirements. So, just to clear things up, Unless otherwise stated, all the comments I make on any subject on this forum will come from personal experience. And, I have no worries about anyone criticising my favourite brand of bass so long as 'their' comments come from personal experience.
And just so you all know where I stand on this, I'm only commenting on the original post, not hal's ramblings about the merits or otherwise of fenders.
Keeping it as real as I can
Graeme. |
chrisalembic
Junior
Username: chrisalembic
Post Number: 39
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 1:20 pm: | |
John, I really appreciate what you are saying!! I totally agree.
In a way I dont understand all this agitation about Alembic vs. Fender (or whatever other brand).. I myself really like Alembics and old Fenders.. The are both different for sure, but I really like them for what they each have to offer. A good old Fender for its simplicity, passive tone, sound etc. and the Alembic for its amazing construction, look and sophisticated sound. And I wouldnt think of either superior to the other. Just different. If you know these differences and the qualities of each, you can use it for whatever you want to hear or what is wanted. And though I am a young musician and not yet the most experienced, let me tell you I have recorded with both. And it can be done with both.
Lets face it: great music has been recorded with both, Alembic and Fender. And its a good thing that both behave and sound differently when recorded. Diversity it is. Each one of us is a little different, aint we? |
basstard
Advanced Member
Username: basstard
Post Number: 292
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 1:49 pm: | |
Chris, you have hit the nail on the head :-) |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 818
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 1:58 pm: | |
My mother had a favorite switch she would use to woop our asses when my brother, and I got into trouble.
Sometimes we would hide it, but she would search all around the house until she found it or replaced it with the same tree origin, and while she was looking for it, we would pray, she received a phone call to interrupt the anger... (sometimes it worked...)
The point I am trying to make, that switch was perfect for her loving hands to hold with out a hitch. There was no fear in her mind of losing her grip while tearing our hides...
Both my brother and I laugh about those days and appreciating her lessons.
Now back to my point... Alembic basses feels good to my hands...
Now, I will add one more thing...
I don't believe Jimi Hendrix or Jaco Pastorius were paid to keep their mouths quiet. Never would my message imply this such a thought.
Also, I don't remember reading where either men ever got paid royalties to endorse Fender or any other instrument.
But like I said, there's a many businesses out there, that plugs the gazillion holes of Fenders quality.
Alembic basses is my "switch" (Mom would be proud)... |
eligilam
Intermediate Member
Username: eligilam
Post Number: 184
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 2:08 pm: | |
Mr.Houck, is there a way to selectively block posts based on username? |
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck
Post Number: 8270
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 3:03 pm: | |
Will; I've looked through the settings and I can't see a way to do it. |
bsee
Senior Member
Username: bsee
Post Number: 2381
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 5:02 pm: | |
If you really need that here, Will, the club would be in poor health.
Anyone who would make contentious or offensive posts often enough for anyone to want to apply a block wouldn't be doing it by accident. That person would have to have nothing of value to add to any conversation, lest you would tolerate the occasional annoyance because there would be enough value to offset it. They would have to have no respect for their fellow members, or they wouldn't intentionally be creating conflict here where it is not welcome. They would have to have no respect for the efforts of our moderator, who gets a bunch of agitation and extra work whenever such a thread arises. By translation, they would have to have no respect for Alembic to risk alienating their customers and making their forums less inviting. I can't believe we have anyone who would maintain such a pattern once they realized what they were doing.
If nothing else, let's try to avoid making too much additional work for our exceptional volunteer moderator.
-bob |
oujeebass
Intermediate Member
Username: oujeebass
Post Number: 161
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 6:23 pm: | |
To think that the Alembic forum won't have at least a few zealots is being a bit naive. Try jumping on a Ferrari forum, and stating that they stink because they require premium fuel. See what happens. It will get stuffy real quick I would imagine. |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 819
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 6:52 pm: | |
I joined the "Alembic Club" not the "Bass Club". |
jbybj
Advanced Member
Username: jbybj
Post Number: 216
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 8:53 pm: | |
I just briefly skimmed through the last page of this thread, not having been here before, and I only have one question, people, why are you wasting your time? I choose to ignore this guy. I'm off to some other thread.
Peace, JBY |
white_cloud
Senior Member
Username: white_cloud
Post Number: 712
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 - 3:49 am: | |
Graeme, you seem to have taken my comments very personally - which I feel you should understand was not my intention at all.
I have obviously completely misinterpretted your recording experience. I was trying to offer objectivity to this subject (never easy on a Hal thread!)
Anyway, the sky is blue, the grass is green and the sun is shining on sunny Scotland - Im off to catch some rays before the next 10 months of rain...yeeha!
John. |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 821
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 - 6:54 am: | |
With all-due-respect White_Cloud, I didn't start this thread.
When reading a book, it's best to start, on the first page, then sequentially to the next. |
eligilam
Intermediate Member
Username: eligilam
Post Number: 185
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 - 7:00 am: | |
bsee: "I can't believe we have anyone who would maintain such a pattern once they realized what they were doing."
I respectfully disagree. |
hendixclarke
Senior Member
Username: hendixclarke
Post Number: 822
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 - 7:16 am: | |
Jacko, you have no idea what you are talking about.
You don't need to trash me, to make your point, or to show your allegiance as "a great guy".
But, then again, you might need to do this...
(Message edited by hendixclarke on June 30, 2009) |
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck
Post Number: 8279
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 - 8:38 am: | |
I think all of the relevant points to the discussion about studio recording have been mentioned (and if they haven't, I'm sure the discussion will come up again). And since at this point the energy of this thread is sucking the life out of the cosmos, perhaps we should move on. |
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