| Author | Message | ||
| byoung
Senior Member Username: byoung Post Number: 1233 Registered: 12-2004 |
I'm in the process of setting up a "home" rig (my other setup is semi-permanently installed at church). I am currently building the cabinet, a fEarful 12/6. I'm thinking of pairing this with a DSP enabled power amp (and bi-amping; then I won't have to deal with building/buying a passive crossover). Here's the question for the electronics masterminds here: can I run my Series II directly into the power amp? How might I discern if this is a good fit? I would be running from a DS-5. I know that running a pre-amp is considered necessary, but heard hints from JimmyJ that he sometimes runs direct to a power amp (maybe through a DI?). I know that there is a potential issue with impedance matching, but I don't actually know how to suss out whether things will be compatible. If you have any ideas on how compatible this might be, and what the potential results might look like (f'rinstance, I might be willing to live with somewhat lower output), I'd be much obliged. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 1727 Registered: 10-2003 |
I did that for more than a decade. Works just fine. John | ||
| jimmyj
Member Username: jimmyj Post Number: 100 Registered: 8-2008 |
Bradley, You bet you can! The results will be the cleanest, biggest and most dynamic sound you have ever heard. Having said that, this signal path is obviously not for everybody. You are essentially limited to the tone controls on the instrument and whatever you can vary on the speaker's or amplifier's crossover. If you want EQ or effects of any kind you've got to start looking into line-level gear. You may need to crank up the output trim pots on the bass to drive the amp with enough level. One of the great things about our basses is that these output levels and the master volume control can be run at any setting without changing the TONE. Although my basses are all set to put out a line level (even through my DI boxes) I have a mark where the output would be considered "normal" level and if the situation doesn't allow for a line level I just dial it back to that mark. I have been running like this for quite a while. If I play a club with decent monitor wedges I ask where the power amp is and try to run a cable directly to that input. Unless the cabinet is particularly weird sounding or has some odd active processing, the results are usually great. A "powered" monitor wedge is even easier. And if there is only a bass amp available then I will first connect directly to the "effects return" jack (usually a direct power amp input) to see how that works. I also have a normal DI in the path (of my 5-pin cable) which puts out "regular" mic level through an xlr for the PA input. Because I'm dealing with several different ground points I sometimes need an isolation transformer in the line running to the monitor amp. But I can usually find the combination that makes everything quiet. In your case, for a home rig this should work great. If you really want to spoil your ears you can build two cabinets and run the bass in stereo. But i must warn you that it is best to have a mediocre sounding home rig and the greatest sounding work rig. Much more fun to be blown away by the tone on the gig! Best of luck, have fun! Jimmy J | ||
| chalie_holmes
Intermediate Member Username: chalie_holmes Post Number: 130 Registered: 3-2009 |
Hmmmmm....This sounds interesting. How do I hook my rig up to do that. I own 2 QSC 2450's and 2 FX's, and I have 2 Bag End 2x10's. I'm performing on a Distillate Series I short scale too. What do I connect to what to be in stereo mode and do I need special Male cables "Y" comming from the bass to the power amps? Please give me the details on the connection process. Thanks Man! Chalie Holmes | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 995 Registered: 11-2004 |
This is a coincidence, I am seriously thinking of 'building' a 400W RMS power amp from modules I can obtain from reputable companies, They have smoothed toroidal transformers. It is the same thinking as chalie, the specs on the data sheets of these modules is that a volume control can be placed on the amp to adjust final output. In conjunction I am going to build a balanced ported cab using Thiele & Small charts and hoping to use one of those lighter neodymium speakers. I have a Boss ME50B which has an array of EQ controls with a mid frequency selector..this could be my 'pre amp' The reason I am considering this is because 90% of the time I run my Roland with all the EQ flat. Comments on idea jimmyj??? | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 8593 Registered: 5-2002 |
Chalie; to do what Jimmy is talking about, you would go from one side of the DS-5 to one QSC, and from the other side of the DS-5 to the other QSC. You would leave out the F-1Xs. | ||
| lembic76450
Intermediate Member Username: lembic76450 Post Number: 164 Registered: 5-2002 |
Dave, Do I remember something about you can only do this with Series basses? | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 8594 Registered: 5-2002 |
Kenn; I think you are right. If I recall correctly, the non-Series electronics packages don't put out as much signal as the Series electronics. | ||
| jimmyj
Intermediate Member Username: jimmyj Post Number: 101 Registered: 8-2008 |
Chalie, as Dave said, use the two separate outputs from the DS-5 directly into two separate amp/speaker channels if you want to check out the stereo thing. If your series I has the older style stereo 1/4" jack then you could do this with a stereo splitter cable - but for full level output (and not eating the batteries) I would recommend using the power supply. The master volume on your instrument is all you need to adjust the volume - just be careful plugging and unplugging things when it is all fired up. Terry, yeah that power amp into that cabinet would probably sound great. But what I'm talking about is using the bass as a preamp and just skipping that step altogether. If you like what your ME50B does then I don't think you can use it this way because the specs say it is built to operate at -10dBu in and out. This unit may choke if you try to insert it into a line level signal. But you see where this is leading? If you like the direct sound but still need some color, EQ, compression or maybe delay, you could start looking at audio gear which is meant to run at line level. This excludes a lot of "guitar" pedals but includes a ton of Pro Audio gear. It opens up a whole 'nother can of worms. Ha!! Jimmy J | ||
| byoung
Senior Member Username: byoung Post Number: 1234 Registered: 12-2004 |
Jimmy and John, Thanks for the feedback, and the confirmation. I'm putting this "on the list" of potential options. The "home rig" keeps getting more and more expensive-- who would have thought? Oh well, I should be under $1000 for a pretty serious hi-fi rig. Bradley | ||
| byoung
Senior Member Username: byoung Post Number: 1235 Registered: 12-2004 |
Jimmy, As of the last couple of years, the Series instruments have a mono/stereo switch on the 1/4" jack. Mine does. Bradley | ||
| sonicus
Advanced Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 250 Registered: 5-2009 |
Let's talk specs ______Line level audio signal level specs ; Consumer =-10dBv Pro =+4dBu What is the audio signal level spec of Non-Series electronics? What is the audio signal level spec of SERIES I /II ? I think the answers may be in the specs _____ (Message edited by sonicus on August 18, 2009) | ||
| jimmyj
Intermediate Member Username: jimmyj Post Number: 102 Registered: 8-2008 |
Wolf, Pardon my ignorance regarding consumer line level vs pro. Balanced vs unbalanced also complicates the issue of level and leaves me with that questioning look on my face... Instead of actually learning what these numbers mean (I could use a few years of electrical engineering school) my tendency is to just plug it all in and see what happens. I am also curious to know if there is a "spec" for the output level of the different electronics packages. All I know is that I have been driving power amps directly off the Series basses for quite some time and I enjoy the sound. Jimmy J | ||
| sonicus
Advanced Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 252 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hi Jimmy , By no means was I implying any ignorance on yours or any one else's part, I think that your posts are always most informative and brilliant, We are fortunate to have your input and I always enjoy what you write.I apologize if I appear arrogant. You have more knowledge of Alembic electronics then I do ! I am however VERY interested in finding out what the output level specs of our onboard Alembic electronics are for non-series and for Series I/ II? What are the I/O specs for the SF-2? What are the I/O specs for the F2B? When I go into troubleshoot mode I ask lots of questions out loud . Wolf | ||
| mario_farufyno
Advanced Member Username: mario_farufyno Post Number: 228 Registered: 9-2008 |
I'd like to now the output levels, too... | ||
| svlilioukalani
Member Username: svlilioukalani Post Number: 67 Registered: 6-2008 |
Hey Brad, Have you ever tried a SansAmp Bass DI. I picked one up at BassNW a few weeks ago. I love the thing. I have been playing some crappy shows this last month, where I have to use the house gear. I go direct into the DI then into the PA or the effects return on the bass head. It makes everything I play sound better. I noticed your Series bass sounds "better" than my non-Series electronics. Not sure how the SansAmp will work with your bass. Oh yea, I'm still grooving on the frettless Epic you sold me. Thanks again!!!!! http://www.tech21nyc.com/products/sansamp/index.html | ||
| byoung
Senior Member Username: byoung Post Number: 1236 Registered: 12-2004 |
Gary, I'm glad that she's getting the attention she deserves! I have thought about something like a SansAmp, or Tech21 is making some new "character" pedals like the VT that can sound very much like an Ampeg SVT. Although trying to sound like an SVT pretty much defeats the purpose of a hi-fi rig.  Bradley | ||
| chalie_holmes
Intermediate Member Username: chalie_holmes Post Number: 131 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thanks Dave! Thanks Jimmy! I think that I'm going to dig this set up! By the way Jimmy, Nice solo on the Stanley Clarke School Days DVD, real classy man. In addition, I've enjoyed James Taylor since the "Mud Slide Slim Album". Keep it low bro!! Peace-n-out cub scout! Chalie | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 997 Registered: 11-2004 |
what about a balanced DI directly into a power amp, could I use the ME50B then as it may equal out the line level mismatch?? | ||
| sonicus
Advanced Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 253 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hi terryc, All DI ;s are not equal . is it passive or active? Most DI's out are at mic level , not at +4dBu line level. I do not know what the I/O specs of the ME50B are. With the right adaptors and more information you can interface almost anything with out any signal loss or impedance mismatch. Most power amps need more level then mic level to drive them to their rated output wattage rating.If you decide to wire your own adaptors from 3 pin balanced lines to 2 conductors you need to know this about balanced lines that follow the AES standard ; PIN 1 ground PIN 2 hot PIN 3 cold Watch out for variations used by various manufacturers in the pin out ! (Message edited by sonicus on August 20, 2009) | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 999 Registered: 11-2004 |
sonicus..thanks for that, I will look at manual for Me50b to ascertain line levels | ||
| jimmyj
Intermediate Member Username: jimmyj Post Number: 104 Registered: 8-2008 |
Hey Terry and Wolf, The published specs for the ME50B say both the nominal input level and the nominal output level is -10dBu. And for comparison the QSC 2450 that Chalie mentioned above is looking for +3.4dBu to drive the amp to it's rated output. That's not to say that the Boss unit wouldn't have some extra headroom available or whatever power amp you try won't have enough output. Also, if you get the front end running at -10 and you're trying to get to +4, you are not that far away and might get enough additional gain from an active DI or even a "consumer to Pro" line-level transformer like a Jensen JT-6110K-B...?? (I'm still speaking as an amateur self-taught wirehead...) But first, try plugging that bass directly into the power amp so you can see what we're talking about... It's pretty surprising. Jimmy J | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 1004 Registered: 11-2004 |
jimmyj..beat to it there, just got home and checked the specs manual and you are right on the nose with the info. I have an old Peavey TNT115 combo with a return line but I guess that will run through the pre amp first. The power amp/speaker project is still in the forefront of my mind so any info that I gain(along with chalie) is very valuable..Many thanks for the input(pardon the pun!!) | ||
| sonicus
Advanced Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 257 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hi Jimmy , as an experiment I am going to play my Series II directly through my old Yamaha p2200 power amp in Stereo with an 18 inch gauss in an old Alembic cabinet and a 4 / 10 mesa cabinet loaded with EV's . THANKS FOR THE INSPIRATION AND A GREAT IDEA ! Wolf-- | ||
| jseitang
Advanced Member Username: jseitang Post Number: 273 Registered: 6-2002 |
hey jimmy, you know i totally get your train of thought, at this point line level add-ons would only have to be high end outboard gear to match this kind of set up. these would only bring out subtle things(like the attack of the string from the fingers on not, the certain frequency you could set up your bass, and how the note decays)... the possilites are endless... | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 1006 Registered: 11-2004 |
I have just remembered I have an old Peavey DPS Digital power amp in the garage, think I will give it a go through a speaker cab this week end | ||
| jseitang
Advanced Member Username: jseitang Post Number: 276 Registered: 6-2002 |
i bet you this kind of speaker set-up would be amazing through a mcintosh amp like a 2300. that would be rad. | ||
| sonicus
Advanced Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 310 Registered: 5-2009 |
The Mac 2300's were awesome in their day and still are nice ,I really love the way that they are built, but check out the specs of an MC 2300 to almost any compbarable current PRO power amp of today. The MC 2300's also did not have such a great damping factor 14 or geater(higher is better for definition in bass response) and had only 300 RMS WATTS per channel and they were really HEAVY @128 LBS,if you think in terms of pounds per WATT . What made these Amplifiers a good choice for the GD wall of sound was the fact the way the output stage is coupled to the speakers . They could do .5 ohms to 16 ohms stereo or .5 to 8 ohms mono. Don't get me wrong I still think they are AWESOME amps iin many ways and they just have a sound that many will prefer. My 2 cents_______. | ||
| oddmetersam
Junior Username: oddmetersam Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2008 |
I can vouch for McIntosh MC 2300's being in a class all their own. In the mid-70's I played bass with Osiris, a band welcomed into the Grateful Dead's extended family because our keyboard player, Kevin McKernan, was the late Pigpen's younger brother. At one point during this period the Dead members went on hiatus, with many playing in spin-off groups. They let us temporarily borrow some of their Wall of Sound components. For an outdoor gig in the plaza at Stanford University one night I got to play my Stars Guitars modified 72' Jazz through a humungous bass rig: The eq section of our GMT 300B bass amp (GMT later became Gallien-Kreuger) fed one channel of a MC 2300, which in turn powered FOUR stacked Alembic single 15" JBL-equipped cabs. The kind with the beautiful natural finish plywood. Just for good measure, there was either a 2 x 10" or 2 x 12" Alembic cab perched on top of everything! I don't know what the total system impedance was, but as has been noted previously, MC 2300's are able to handle almost any load and not even breathe hard. I have never experienced the kind of bass this rig put out; not without additional sound reinforcement from a PA! It wasn't just the extreme volume or the sledgehammer wallop that can sometimes become over powering. I've never been a fan of tweeters in bass cabs and those full-range 15's had a burnished tone to die for. The sensation could best be described as similar to going to the beach and wading into the water until it's about chest deep. The energy of the incoming waves (notes) enveloped everyone and was strong enough to physically push the audience back (and me forward...). I can't even imagine how much more intense everything would have been with an Alembic bass in my hands. Fast forward: Amoeba Records in Berkeley uses a MC 2300 to amplify the background music in the store. You can see it behind the main counter, just humming along. It's huge. None of the employees I've spoken with seem to be aware of how special that monster truly is. | ||
| sonicus
Advanced Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 314 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hi oddmetersam. I saw Osiris back in the mid -70's , I liked the band ! in fact I think you guys might have been on the same bill together with some friends of mine at some point, You have triggered some of my memories from the past. Yes , indeed the MC 2300's were built to handle low impedance loads. I have seen the MC 2300 that you mention at Amoeba, it's walking distance from me. I love vintage gear like that .I played through one that was hooked up to the pre-amp output from a Fender Dual Showman also with 4 Alembic Birch plywood cabinets loaded with JBL D140 speakers. GREAT STUFF! (Message edited by sonicus on September 07, 2009) | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 8698 Registered: 5-2002 |
Cool story Sam! | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 1039 Registered: 11-2004 |
Any pics of that huge rig Sam?? I have never played through anything that large, you said that how more intense it would have been with an Alembic but I bet the Jazz did it justice. | ||
| benson_murrensun
Intermediate Member Username: benson_murrensun Post Number: 169 Registered: 5-2007 |
Back to the SansAmp part of the thread: when I was considering buying the Bass DI I took notice of the claim that this unit could drive a power amp. I went ahead and bought it, and found that there was not enough output to get any kind of volume comparable to using a "normal" preamp. I was disappointed, to say the least. I like the sound and flexibility of the unit, but their claim that it can be used to drive a power amp directly did not work for me. I tried it with passive and active basses; it is possible that a VERY high output bass would have made a big difference, but there was no indication of that in SansAmp's advertising, and none of my basses had enough output to make this a viable option. | ||
| oddmetersam
Junior Username: oddmetersam Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2008 |
Terry, Sad to say there are no pics of that rig (to my knowledge). I forgot to add that the Alembic cabs were rectangular with the JBL's offset from center; we stacked 'em on their sides. As loud and killer as they were, at one point I remember looking back during that Stanford gig and some guy was actually LYING DOWN RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY STACK with the most blissed out expression... That was back in the days when we had roadies...and groupies (I was a wide-eyed nerd too scared to indulge. Crap-o-rama!!!). But to continue with the original thread, I have a Radial Bassbone that I use to switch between my Alembic and Line 6 Variax basses. The Bassbone is a great unit that not only has a built in DI but separate level controls for its two channels PLUS an additional boost circuit. I'll hook it up directly to my Crest LT-1500 power amp and see how it sounds... | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1286 Registered: 9-2002 |
Back in the day you needed roadies: It's a wonder we survived double 15 cabinets (anybody remember the big 215's in a scoop cabinet?) or the folded-18's (also know as w-bins) with Macs or SVTs or Sunn Coliseums. Back then the idea of an SVT pushing its intended 2-8/10 cabinets was breathtaking: Now it just seems backbreaking. Damn I hate middle age . . . but it is amazing to kids that you played all of the originals of the presets on a Bass Pod ! | ||
| sonicus
Advanced Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 321 Registered: 5-2009 |
bigredbass You got that right, but being the pack rat that I am, I still have kept most of my "GOOD" big cabinets , In fact I am having some JBL D140's reconed by my friend and speaker reconer . I think I am about to make a big RUMMBLE in a new band. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 8705 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hi Joey!!!!!!!! | ||
| jet_powers
Senior Member Username: jet_powers Post Number: 469 Registered: 2-2003 |
My favorite cabinet is still my Peavey 612 from the early 70's. My guess is that it was their answer to the SVT. I don't move it around anymore (unless I have some help and a truck) but I still like to use it in my own studio space. JP | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 1376 Registered: 2-2005 |
"... Back then the idea of an SVT pushing its intended 2-8/10 cabinets was breathtaking: Now it just seems backbreaking. Damn I hate middle age ..." Joey, After moving two 301's around and now using itty bitty cabinets, I prefer to look at it not so much as "damn middle age" but as the gaining of wisdom. :-) Keith | ||
| lenny_d
Junior Username: lenny_d Post Number: 18 Registered: 9-2009 |
...stories from the new guy, if I may... I read these last posts with nostalgic rheumatism, caring to share a 'gear' story... Back when I was a budding bassist, I joined a band whose leader promptly told me "you want an SVT". We went to the local store and there was a used model, two cabinets and all, that I took ownership of. Played that rig for a number of years first with a Hofner Beatle bass, then with my then new Fender Jazz. Groups evolved and I was using this rig now with acquired Taurus pedals and a MiniKorg as supplements. One night a fire destroyed a music club and its contents leaving me with my portion of insurance money and one SVT cab. that got left in the truck for stage space limitations. I then outfitted the cab. with 8 10" Gauss speakers, and utilizing a small mixer, stereo 10 band EQ and a BGW power amp. Here's the nostalgic part - when I fitted the cabinet with the Gauss's, I attempted to upright the cabinet. I was astonished at how much effort that took! Later that night the roadie came to pick up the beast (in it's Anvil case!!) and he almost quit on the spot. It competed mightily with the Hammond B3 (in it's Anvil case!). Later I refinished the cabinet (all the Tolex was ripped) and secured a steady club gig 5 nights a week. Mr. Alembic had been with me for about 2 years and by then I had acquired a used F-2B, and swapped the BGW for a Crown DC 300, dispensed with the mixer, and upgraded to a Minimoog Model D., and built the fretless playing that combination of gear for the next 5 1/2 years. Without a doubt, that was the most incredible sound of tight, deep punchy lows, and crystal clear mids and highs I have ever known. I still miss it today, nothing reasonable to move around comes close. I did kind of split up the 'wall' and had a guy build a 4x10 and 2-2x10 cabs. that I outfitted with 4 old SVT speakers (for lows) and 4 Gauss's that were biamped with a GK 800RB. That was a nice sound but not nearly the headroom of the Crown. I don't have the resources to haul that suff around anymore so the F-2B and the 800RB GK power anything from a 1 10" SWR to an Ampeg 2x10 SVT outfitted with neodymium speakers. And no more synths., those days have passed. Just the SII (in a soft case!) and a tiny rig go to a typical gig. Ahh, youth........(looks for aspirin bottle) Lenny | ||
| sonicus
Advanced Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 328 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hey Lenny , I liked that story. I really love gauss bass drivers too . I have a 15 2 /12's and an 18 all in Old Alembic birch cabs. They have held up but my JBL d140's needed to get re-coned. For my small rig I like to use The GK micro-bass series of which I have 3 , in combination with a 2 /10 EV cab and a 1/12 JBL . |
