| Author | Message | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 704 Registered: 1-2005 |
For the longest time, I considered myself a roundwound player. My favorite bassists (including Chris Squire, Geddy Lee, Roger Glover, etc.) all sounded like roundwound players - Long Live the CLANK! But in the past few years, I have been a partial convert to flats. In high school when I put flats on they just sounded like dead roundwounds - I just didn't get it! It probably started with my Gibsons - the "mudbucker" barely puts out any highs, so flats seem the way to go. I found out that Phil Lesh used flats with his Guilds and early Alembics with the Grateful Dead, and I knew that classic R'n'B players like Duck Dunn and James Jamerson used flats, so I tried them with my Telembic (Fender Telecaster with Alembic Activators). I loved the results! Even with flats, the Alembic electronics gave enough highs that even slapping sounded great! (IMNSHO of course) So recently I've been having some issues with my 5-string Signature Standard - since it's short-scale, can't seem to get enough tension on the low-E string. So I finally broke down and ordered a set of D'Addario Chromes with a high C-string - SO FAR SO GOOD! Just enough extra tension, especially on the low-E but on all the strings generally. So if you've had trouble with tension, maybe flats are a possibility? Anyone else had tension issues? I know we love the Stanley twang, but sometimes flats might be an alternative! | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 745 Registered: 5-2009 |
I just purchased 6 sets of Pyramid Gold Flats ; 3 long scale & 3 short scale about 2 weeks ago. The Chromes that you have Do have a bit more tension . http://www.thestringguy.com/tension.html | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 1809 Registered: 10-2003 |
I have el-cheapo Fender flats on my Series 1-1/2 long scale 4 string. The gang at last Summer's Chicago gathering were, I believe, pleasantly surprised at the sound... John | ||
| pauldo
Senior Member Username: pauldo Post Number: 438 Registered: 6-2006 |
true dat! John's bass did raise some eyebrows with the flats on it, but the tone was spot on and it felt really smooth! | ||
| nnek
Junior Username: nnek Post Number: 26 Registered: 8-2009 |
well it's funny this topic should show up right now. I just put a set of chromes on my series 1. Playing at home it sounded very interesting and I love the smooth feel with no tell tale "zing" as I change position on the neck, but at rehearsal last night I hated it and couldn't get a sound I liked no matter what setting I dialed in. These are going on another bass and it's back to the DR's.... | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 705 Registered: 1-2005 |
Wolf - have you used the Pyramids before? I'd be interesting in hearing what you think - heck, I live in Oakland too, maybe we could have a get-together/string comparison gathering! Kenn, what kind of music do you play? I still haven't played this bass through an amp yet with the flats on - Tuesday's the moment of truth! Flats on an Alembic seems pretty counter-intuitive at first - I think it's a different mind-set and different approach, there are probably some kinds of music they work with better than others... | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 747 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hieronymous, I have been using the Pyramid Gold Flatwounds since 1974. They sound like nothing else can get close too , to my ears . I used them on my Alembic modified Guild Starfires back then. They are great on the Series II and my Distillate as well and my remaining Alembic Modified Starfire . Back in the 70's I use to visit the old Alembic shop on 60 Bradey St. in San Francisco quite often. Pyramid Gold Strings were STANDARD on many of the Bass's that were hanging on the wall the across from the glass counter. I used to LOVE to go and check out the early Alembic stuff. I remember it it just like it was just yesterday but it was really about 36 years ago ! LOL !!!! So the first time that I played an Alembic Bass with Pyramid Gold strings was 36 years ago _ Time flies ! I also like the Dean Markley Blue Steel (95-40) on Essence and my Fender Jazz and Precision Bass's. Sonic Regards , Wolf. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 1811 Registered: 10-2003 |
So is it somewhat safe to assume the Phil Lesh probably used the Pyramid Gold Flats on "Eyes of the World"? His tone is remarkable. John | ||
| nnek
Junior Username: nnek Post Number: 27 Registered: 8-2009 |
In reply to hieronymous I was playing with my classic rock band. The sound was very bottom heavy and the high end was easily cut down too low for good definition. Now I must say I prefer all the high cut I can get and usually palm mute at the bridge (which I find most useful with neck-throughs as they tend to ring forever). At gigs I have had other bass players come up to me and ask , looking closely, if they were flatwound strings on my basses. I like to have it all on tap and mute down to a Jamerson thump but occasionally pop a twangy note and generally use the available twangy headroom for expression depending on the song (Funk needs twang even a slow blues needs the slice to carry on a long note after the initial thump). So to me the Chromes were all bottom and more bottom with the only high slice coming from playing totally un-muted and as such maybe it is my style that has made them less than useful on the series 1. I would also add that at low volume in my home they seemed like they would work but at volume with drums all the subtle qualities were lost. | ||
| willgunn
Junior Username: willgunn Post Number: 48 Registered: 2-2007 |
On the subject of "Classic/Old School" R&B bass tone (the exact opposite of the "Chris Squire 'clank'"), my experience has been that the REAL "secret weapon" is utilizing a FOAM RUBBER MUTE....with either flats OR round wounds! Soloed, it sounds like absolute crap, but by God, it fits like a glove in the mix like you wouldn't believe! If you haven't tried it, DO so - you'll be absolutely amazed! There was a really good reason why Jamerson, Babbit, etc, did just that back "in the day" - it just WORKS...particularly in a studio environment. | ||
| funkyjazzjunky
Senior Member Username: funkyjazzjunky Post Number: 551 Registered: 5-2007 |
Pyramid flats do not sound like any others. Just as Alembics have unique tone, Pyramis flats do as well. | ||
| nnek
Junior Username: nnek Post Number: 28 Registered: 8-2009 |
Fender provided Jamerson and Babbit with the mute installed in that chrome bridge cover as standard equipment due to the electric bass being the replacement for the un amplified upright bass (and in upright land the higher the action the louder the sound, higher the action more the thump) and Leo kept up that idea with Music Man with the little tunable mutes for each string. The preferred foam is the dense black stuff. If you play only in Jamerson's style and do all mowtown the foam setup is an easy fix for consistancy. I prescribe to the theory that it's all in the hands and would rather not be restricted in my expression. I've owned a lot of Fenders and early MM basses and always took off the bridge covers and mutes to gain access to the bridge as a very important part of my instrument's expression. It does not only affect the initial attack and thump but the decay and sustain too. ie. it affects and limits the availability to play whole notes (with an upright you could always use a bow). Using the palm is like having an instantly variable and available ADSR filter usable with fingers or pick. (I also prefer to use a two fingers and thumb style with "good" fingernails so I switch from the severe attack of a fingernail pluck or scratch to the thump of the side of the thumb) Your best tools should always be at hand to get the job done.... Kenn P.S. the reason I was trying the flats was to get rid of that annoying "zing" that happens when you change position quickly on the neck. I'll have to learn to lift my fretting fingers higher and not be so sloppy if I want to keep the "Squire clank" at the edge of my tonal possibilities. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 1812 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sounds like you might want to give half-rounds a go... Bright but very little "zing" as you move.. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 748 Registered: 5-2009 |
@ Willgunn, YES if you want to recreate that sound and have or replicate one those original Fender mutes " Back in the day " that is what those Cats used and they do work ! As far as muting goes I prefer to use the Rocco Prestia method and use my hands, fingers and the palm on my right hand.I played a friends old 1950's Fender Precision once that hand one of those stock mutes and it took some getting used to and he hand an old VERY heavy set of La bella Flat wounds on it . | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 749 Registered: 5-2009 |
@811952 , off the top of my head It seem to me that Phil Lesh has used Pyramid Gold Flats as well, But I believe he likes to experiment so perhaps maybe but maybe not ; to answer your question . The Chronology seems correct though .It has been a long time . | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 750 Registered: 5-2009 |
I liked Guild Flat wounds when they were still available in the 70's "Some " people mixed Guild and Pyramid sets. | ||
| rusty_the_scoob
Junior Username: rusty_the_scoob Post Number: 36 Registered: 6-2008 |
Phil's strings as I understand it were: Early: Pyramid Gold Flats Mentioned in 1977 interview: D'Addario Half Rounds Sometime around the Modulus era he switched to: Ken Smith Slick Rounds Currently: Ritter strings, probably the only ones that are long enough to fit that crazy new bass of his. The middle two string sets are hybrid designs - much brighter than regular flats but with the same flatwound feel. I recently switched from D'addario Chromes to the Half Rounds and didn't notice a big change at home or on stage but on the live recordings the change is quite noticeable, especially fingerstyle. I normally brighten up my tone quite a bit for the few fingerstyle songs that we do, trying to get that JGB bite (John Kahn on P-bass through a Fender head), but really overdid it with the new strings. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 752 Registered: 5-2009 |
@rusty the scoob. I believe John Kahn liked old dead La bella flats on his P- Bass from what I have been told, seen and have heard . I used to see him play quite often here locally with JGB and other acts. He played through a Fender dual Showman with a preamp out to a Mcintosh 2300 to 2 large Fender Cabinets with dual 15' speakers when I saw him with JGB . How is your Gibson EB/ Darkstar pickup project going? have you solved the bridge issue ? | ||
| benson_murrensun
Advanced Member Username: benson_murrensun Post Number: 228 Registered: 5-2007 |
I like different types of strings on different basses, but if I had to choose one type of string it would be half-rounds or ground wounds or pressure wounds or whatever the correct name is. I have been enjoying GHS Brite Flats, for example. | ||
| lembic76450
Advanced Member Username: lembic76450 Post Number: 203 Registered: 5-2002 |
Sonicus, I have Chromes on an Epic that I have and use for that "Fender on Steroids" sound, but, I find the string tension causing a bit of left hand fatigue in a long set. How are the Pyrimids for tension? | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 753 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hi lembic76450, I also have used the Chromes on a fretless P-Bass that I used for Latin, Salsa & etc. about 10 years ago and found that they did have high tension . In that application it was good to get a Double Bass -like snap. The Pyramid Gold flat wounds have less tension then the Chromes; check out my link to the tension chat that I posted per a link in my posting #745 at the top of this thread. I hope that helps . | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 706 Registered: 1-2005 |
How do the Pyramids compare to TI Jazz Flats? The TIs are REALLY LOW tension - too low for me in most applications... | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 754 Registered: 5-2009 |
heironymous , look at the link that I posted in my posting #745 in this thread at the top for the specs _ they are there . | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 707 Registered: 1-2005 |
Oh yeah - I looked at it yesterday but forgot! So basically a little heavier except for the G string - for long scale at least - they don't give short scale specs for the TIs... | ||
| benson_murrensun
Advanced Member Username: benson_murrensun Post Number: 229 Registered: 5-2007 |
OK - I just have to have "that" sound: the one involving a short-scale bass, Pyramid Gold Flats, Hagstrom or Hammon pickups. I don't have any of that gear yet... So I ordered a set of Pyramid Gold (long scale, because that is the only type of basses I have) and will see how far that takes me. Anybody got any suggestions on which type of bass I should try those strings on first? I have a P-bass, and Alembic Epic, an Epiphone Jack Casady, a Modulus Q4, an EB MM Sterling. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 756 Registered: 5-2009 |
What ever Bass that you have that has Alembic Pick ups will be able to extract the timbral aspects of the Pyramid Gold Flats the best in my opinion. Any other bass with active pickups next and also perhaps it would be interesting on the Epiphone Jack Casady . Be careful with the G string in regards to breakage . Sonic Regards. | ||
| benson_murrensun
Advanced Member Username: benson_murrensun Post Number: 230 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thanks, Sonicus. I was gonna go with the P-bass, since I already use flats on that, but I see your point about putting the Golds on a bass with "hi-def" p/u's. Looks like the Epic will get the nod for this experiment. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 757 Registered: 5-2009 |
I am interested how you will like the results. I think you might get some nice Flat Wound sounds . I find experiments like this to be fun . | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 709 Registered: 1-2005 |
Used my SC with the Chromes, and it sounds great! Got the neck pickup with the filtered turned down pretty low, with the bridge pickup added in with the filter emphasizing highs. I like it! I can get a nice thick sound with definition with my fingers, but it bites with a pick! Plus I'm using the new Moog Taurus III bass pedals on some stuff. I'll try and post a soundclip or two next week... Oh, the only problem with the Chromes is that the G string is a little bit too big for the nut - might have to switch to a lighter string for that one. The tension is pretty high, but I tend to play pretty hard so it works for me! | ||
| grankin
New Username: grankin Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2006 |
OK, I'm playing a vintage 1977 Series I shortscale, using Alembic's CX-3 short scale strings. I like the sound on all but the low E, which has more 'thump' and less articulation than I'd like. As I jam, I play through whatever amp is in the room, but consistently hear what I'm complaining about (though nobody else has expressed anything but admiration for the instrument's sound). So what strings might give the sharper edge to the bottom that I think I want? TIs (which are on my mandolin)? | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 662 Registered: 10-2006 |
Nah, I don't think mandolin strings will help your lows  Peter | ||
| dadabass2001
Senior Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 1366 Registered: 6-2002 |
Seriously though, Grankin, I use TI jazz flats and find they sound quite bright and articulate on my Epic fretless and my 81 Distillate. Mike | ||
| grankin
New Username: grankin Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2006 |
cozmik cowboy sez: >Nah, I don't think mandolin strings will help your >lows Jeez, Not even if I tie several of 'em together? Damn! Another plan, foiled! Thanks to dadabass2001. Will try a set. | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 714 Registered: 1-2005 |
Some video of my SC bass with the Chromes grankin, just be aware that the TI Jazz Flats are very low tension - not necessarily a bad thing, but something to keep in mind. Now that my Chromes experiment has been 95% successful (need a .065 D string instead of the .070), I'm going to try Rotosound Jazz Bass Monel flatwounds. | ||
| toddharris
Intermediate Member Username: toddharris Post Number: 193 Registered: 7-2008 |
I'm a long time D'Addario Chrome user but moved happily to Ernie Ball flats which don't have the windings at the bottom which can give trouble trhreading though the bridge holes. Great smooth feel and sound | ||
| mike13
Member Username: mike13 Post Number: 76 Registered: 11-2007 |
Hey Harry,you won'nt go wrong with the Roto Flats,I've been useing them for years on my S2and Essence | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 716 Registered: 1-2005 |
Yeah, I'm getting psyched! You know you're a bass geek when changing strings is exciting! Well, actually it makes sense, it means my bass will be in my hands that much more. I polished it today after the weekend... | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 2424 Registered: 6-2002 |
Tried Rotosound flats on my defretted Epic - must have been the RS77LD set. For me they were absolutely horrible: very high tension, uncomfortably stiff, no clear fundamental. The TI flats agree a lot better with me (even if they could do with a little more tension, and a bit more mass). As they say, YMMV ... | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 507 Registered: 5-2002 |
If you are looking for TI style flats with a bit more tension, try the DR Flats. They bridge the difference between TI and Chromes. | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 717 Registered: 1-2005 |
Thanks Edwin - I forgot to mention though, I need flats that can be found with a high-C string, which somewhat limits my options... I should try the DR flats on one of my other basses though! | ||
| dluxe
Member Username: dluxe Post Number: 71 Registered: 11-2009 |
Do the DR Flats have a round core? Has anyone tried the recent Pyramid Flats with the round core? I'm having trouble finding any Pyramids but the old hex core ones. The newer packages say "round core" on the label. | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 2427 Registered: 6-2002 |
DR advertizes them as Hi-Beam Flats, and Hi-Beam roundwounds have a round core. Lo-Riders have the hex core. I much prefer the Hi-Beam roundwounds over the Lo-Riders for feel | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 719 Registered: 1-2005 |
Here's a soundclip of the Chromes played with a pick: terminous live (and the Moog Taurus 3 bass pedals) | ||
| oddmetersam
Member Username: oddmetersam Post Number: 64 Registered: 7-2008 |
Harry, Your clip sounds killer! You and your drummer friend are a match made in heaven. I'd love to jam with both of you. The Taurus pedals integrate seamlessly within your concept. Until this thread, it had never occurred to me to even consider getting flatwounds. Now I'll have to explore that option. When I had my 35" scale MKSD tweaked and restrung at SF Guitarworks they remarked how difficult it was to find strings for her; finally settling on d'Addarios. I hope that won't be a problem with flatwounds.... | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 721 Registered: 1-2005 |
Hey Sam - thanks! I've still got the long-scale Chromes that I switched out for the Rotos - we should get together, I can pass them on to you so at the very least you can make sure they're long enough. If they aren't (and Alembics sometimes need longer strings because of the distance between the tailpiece and the bridge), then D'Addario makes an extra long 5-string set - assuming you want to go with Chromes, that is. | ||
| benson_murrensun
Advanced Member Username: benson_murrensun Post Number: 239 Registered: 5-2007 |
Update on my recent experiences with Pyramid Flats: I installed them on my Epic after removing the GHS Brite Flats. I did not have to adjust the truss rods (so far), but I did have to adjust the intonation on the D and G strings. I played it through a recently-acquired Hartke rig (not my usual, familiar set-up of Eden/Acme), with no other players or instruments making noise. I sounded very good, especially with a Dunlop lexan pick. Then I picked up my P-Bass with flats and that sounded even better! I was surprised... and not necessarily in a good way... Then last night I played a 3-song set in a relatively large room (the Oriental Theatre in Denver) with the Alembic/Eden/Acme set up and I just LOVED the sound. It seemed like the Pyramids had an extra dose of clarity (for flats). I don't know what it all means, but I am reminded that the rig and the room have everything to do with the sound, along with the other instruments in the mix. More observation is called for! (Message edited by Benson_Murrensun on March 12, 2010) | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 776 Registered: 5-2009 |
I am pleased that your experiment is apparently resulting in positive results for you regarding the Pyramid Gold Flats .Be careful with the G &D strings. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 1826 Registered: 10-2003 |
The thing that sold me on flats is that it's so easy to fit the bass into the mix with clarity, without muddling what the guitars and vocals are doing. John | ||
| benson_murrensun
Advanced Member Username: benson_murrensun Post Number: 242 Registered: 5-2007 |
Yes, it seems like there is more fundamental and fewer harmonics. There certainly is less finger noise, at least for me!!! | ||
| dluxe
Member Username: dluxe Post Number: 80 Registered: 11-2009 |
I've read that Pyramid flats have a round core. Has this always been the case? | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 723 Registered: 1-2005 |
Here's a studio version of the song I posted of the video above, recorded on my "Telembic" - early-'70s Telecaster Bass with Alembic P-Bass Activators - and Chromes. Turntables courtesy of DJ Taka, drums by Greg DeGuglielmo: AKA studio version | ||
| oddmetersam
Member Username: oddmetersam Post Number: 69 Registered: 7-2008 |
Harry, does the offer to check out those strings still stand? Sorry for the protracted response... -Sam | ||
| nnek
Junior Username: nnek Post Number: 31 Registered: 8-2009 |
LOVE the Studio version!!! | ||
| mario_farufyno
Senior Member Username: mario_farufyno Post Number: 427 Registered: 9-2008 |
Oh, you did it again Harry... Great piece of groove, congrats! | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 1830 Registered: 10-2003 |
Nice! | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 724 Registered: 1-2005 |
Thanks a lot guys! I'm really happy with how it turned out. I still can't quite believe that the bass and drums were improvised on the spot (although I did make a couple of fixes). I think of this as our Meters style tune, updated with the turntables. And Sam, the flatwounds are coiled up waiting for you! We'll have to figure out a time & place to meet... | ||
| grankin
Junior Username: grankin Post Number: 11 Registered: 11-2006 |
I've been using Thomastik-Infeld strings on my mandolin, and have liked them - so I tried a set of their Jazz E-Bass flatwound strings on my short-scale Series I (they come in 32", 34" and 36" lengths). I was astonished by the sound. Loads of bottom, even more harmonics. Extremely articulate. They "retail" for over $100, but everyone sells them for $52-60. Gonna stick with 'em until something MUCH better comes along. | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 764 Registered: 1-2005 |
Some more flatwound funk! This is just the bass track of a jam that I did with DJ TAKA today. My 5-string Stanley Clark Sig. Standard with newly-strung Chromes, into an MXR M82 Bass Envelope Filter and Glockenklang Soul Head with CAJ V-COMP Tube Compressor in the effects loop - recorded direct into Tascam DR-1 recorder, but who knows how much effect the amp and compressor had on the sound?!!! I should have set the filter controls more carefully, but as usual I didn't have much rehearsal/setup time so I was flying by the seat of my pants! Mostly fingers, with some thumb/slap in the middle. Loving the Chromes! Much better than the Rotos. I videotaped it too, hopefully the audio came out half-way decent so you can hear the whole thing... | ||
| souza_lima
New Username: souza_lima Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2003 |
I'm one of those who spent all my life avoiding Flats but sometime ago I was considering trying them since Alembic can really sound too harsh. But everytime I try some groundwound or pressurewound set I simply find them as getting dead too soon. I wish I could do like Steve Harris (he uses Flats, but changes it every show). So I kept on Rounds, although I can't use Stainless Steel no more. But I was thinking about how a 35" Scale Bass could have a better sounding B String. Most people say that this is due to better Tension you got from a longer String and this got me thinking about what are the Strings tension on my 4 strings... Well, it looks like Low Strings always presents less Tension than the Highests, not only the B. But if you need more uniformity on string tension you could always opt getting light high strings along with heavy lower strings (since Tension relates Gauge and Lenght). I'm currently using GHS's Bassics L6000 since they're cheap (US$ 14,00 at JustString.com) and got the most extreme combination on gauges (that I hope can even out all string tension): .040 .058 .080 .102 (Message edited by souza lima on May 18, 2010) | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 766 Registered: 1-2005 |
Mario, I resisted flats for the longest time! The mighty mudbucker in Gibson basses that doesn't transmit any highs whatsoever was one of the things that got me started - my current Alembic needs higher tension to keep the neck manageable, and I discovered that I really like the sound!!! I appreciate your comments on tension though. Personally, I think strings are one of the most mysterious parts of our instrument! And unfortunately, it's expensive to experiment... | ||
| souza_lima
New Username: souza_lima Post Number: 10 Registered: 2-2003 |
Funny how things turn full circle... (Message edited by souza lima on May 18, 2010) |
