| Author | Message | ||
| afrobeat_fool
Intermediate Member Username: afrobeat_fool Post Number: 181 Registered: 7-2009 |
I just got hired for a bunch of shows with a Stevie Ray Vaughn cover band and we do most songs with an E flat tuning. The problem is it makes my strings a little floppy. I am currently using 45-105 DR High Beams. Any suggestions? Nick | ||
| keith_h
Moderator Username: keith_h Post Number: 1583 Registered: 2-2005 |
Nick, I use a 5-string in standard B-G tuning and transpose when I'm in a similar situation. Keith | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 823 Registered: 5-2009 |
I did that floppy e flat thing once and then the next time rigged up another Bass tuned B E A D with a 5 string set and left off the G for the next gig with the guy that wanted that range . It works if you do not have a 5 string or do not like to play a 5 string. | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 729 Registered: 1-2005 |
Supposedly Lo-Riders are slightly higher tension than Hi-Beams. Not sure if it's enough to make a difference, but it might be a good place to start. Another option would be to go with flats. I was having a bit of trouble with not enough tension on the neck of my Stanley Clarke bass, but Chromes and Rotosound Monel flatwounds are significantly higher tension, though not so much as to be uncomfortable. You may think that flats on an Alembic is weird, but I'm really really happy with them! I can still get plenty of bite with the bridge pickup filter. | ||
| jimmyj
Intermediate Member Username: jimmyj Post Number: 172 Registered: 8-2008 |
Nick, Loosening the truss rod and/or raising the bridge might help the e-flat tuning work better with your normal strings. If it still feels too loose then grab a "heavy" set of High Beams which are 50 - 110 and use them for the special occasion. I'm a 5-string guy but often prefer an open low e-flat to a fretted low e-flat and I'll tune down - rattles and all - for the song. Jimmy J | ||
| briant
Senior Member Username: briant Post Number: 413 Registered: 12-2004 |
What scale bass are you using that 45-105 are floppy in Eb? I use Elixer 45-105 strings on my Essence (34" scale) and switch from E to Eb to D (and back) every night with my hair metal band. I don't experience any floppy string issue. Just lots of aquanet and bad clothing choices. | ||
| afrobeat_fool
Intermediate Member Username: afrobeat_fool Post Number: 182 Registered: 7-2009 |
LOL!!! I've been trying different things all day, Brian. I tried Jimmy's idea and tuned down my 5 string essence, but as it is a frettless, it sounded better natural. I've been using my 4st fretted essence, in rehersals, and playing in the mid range of the neck. Transposition is no prob, but the sound on the recordings is definitely deeper. I've played around with my Fender J and 71 Tele(original P stock). Tuning down on those short scale basses is better. I wonder if I put a Fender thru the SF-2... I'll get back to ya. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 825 Registered: 5-2009 |
HI Nick. when I did an SRV thing a while back the B E A D tuning worked well . If I remember correctly it was around 1991 or so and I used Ernie Ball flat-wound strings tuned B E A D 130/100/80/65 gauges .I strung them on a 1971 Fender Precision with an Ash body and a maple neck. That was my SRV BOOM BOOM Bass. lol___. (Message edited by sonicus on April 06, 2010) | ||
| afrobeat_fool
Intermediate Member Username: afrobeat_fool Post Number: 183 Registered: 7-2009 |
My sonic brother, you are going to love this. I took the flatwounds off my 5st fretless and put them on my 71 tele, ash body maple neck. Tuned them B E A D. Then ran it thru the SF-2. Boom Boom is right! Just got back from practice and "the Man" was stoked! He turned up his dual showmans a full notch. I put in ear plugs. Thanks all for the input. I really learned a lot from you all. Nick | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 826 Registered: 5-2009 |
I am really glad that it was successful , Cool! Wolf. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 576 Registered: 5-2002 |
I love those old Tele basses! They have a killer tone. But two Dual Showmans? (Showmen?) For a rehearsal? Keep those ear plugs handy! | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 978 Registered: 5-2009 |
Nick . How did the tour go? Wolf | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9330 Registered: 5-2002 |
Another suggestion that I didn't see mentioned would be to put a 32" set of strings on a 34" bass. | ||
| afrobeat_fool
Advanced Member Username: afrobeat_fool Post Number: 206 Registered: 7-2009 |
Hi, Wolf! Yeah, things went well enough. I got Paid!!!!!! Seriously. I remember why I haven't done one of these road gigs for a while. Sleeping in a short bus, and sometimes at impromptu houses, wreaks my back and makes me surly. Not to mention my old Tele bass breaking down on me. Trying to find places to resolder old connections, and replacing pots. Lets face it, most basses are not as well built or designed as Alembic's. My SF-2 was quite the plus on this trip. It performed quite well and there were moments when my Fender sounded good. The guitarist/singer/bandleader blew up an old Fender showman in Yakima. Praise Jebus. He had to suffer thru most of the shows with only one Showman, and a twin reverb. Poor guy. We played well and got a lot of queries about when we would be back thru. Dave, what would a set of shorter strings have done on a long scale bass? Now I get ready for my Mass Transit gigs for the Pacific NW. Some cool parties a few bigger events and, dare I say it, the transformation into a new Portland Afro-beat band. My old one has finally breathed its last breath and it's time to take the audience from the last one and give them something new to dance about. I am also going to be singing this summer, as well as playing bass. Some of the tunes I have chosen are Tales of brave Ulysses (Cream), Burning for you (B.O.C.), and Gallows poll (Maiden). Wish I could do some Zep, but my voice just can't hang. Nick | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 981 Registered: 5-2009 |
Nick, Yes the road can eat you alive but it looks like you have got it down. That's great that you have got all that work lined up _ and singing while playing Bass as well; that's something I still have to learn how to do well. I have had a few recording gigs lately , one that might pan out " OK " for sound tracks for a reality show . I have been ask to work on some demo projects and also some" Substitute Bass Player "live gigs . I will possibly put a new Band together and do some cover and original material in it . It will definitely have a" San Francisco Sound" Jam band twist to it with a bit of Jazz & Blues & Reggae influence as well : it will have a little bit of everything in it. This seems to be important to me . Sonic Regards ______ | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9333 Registered: 5-2002 |
Nick; 32" strings are designed to be tuned to E-A-D-G on a 32" bass. Take a set of 32" strings and put them on a 34" bass; now put a capo on the first fret. You now have, essentially, a 32" bass. Tune the bass to E-A-D-G; the strings are at their proper tension. Now take the capo off; the strings are still at proper tension, but the bass is tuned to Eb-Ab-Db-Gb. I haven't done this myself (I don't play in a band that tunes to Eb), and thus don't know which strings would not have issues with threads and with windings that wouldn't be long enough. But if your strings don't have these issues, then putting 32" strings on a 34" bass gives you normally tensioned strings tuned to Eb. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 638 Registered: 5-2002 |
Beyond scale length, I don't think there is anything intrinsically different about short scale strings from long scale strings. The main issue is not to have the outer windings wrap around the tuning post in order to reduce the likelihood of the string unraveling. Other than that, it's just a question of string gauge. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 984 Registered: 5-2009 |
Dave,____ What if the strings will not be long enough ? | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9334 Registered: 5-2002 |
Wolf; that's why I mentioned threads and wrappings; a lot of strings wouldn't work. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 985 Registered: 5-2009 |
HI edwin. You must have made your just before I clicked on mine to post. OK then _____ | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 2448 Registered: 3-2004 |
Dave, I see no point in using a 32" scale string. The difference between the tension comes from the gauge and mass of the string. Just bump up one size and it should compensate plenty for the tuning change. A 32" set of 45-105 shouldn't do any better for tension than a 34" set of the same type and gauge. | ||
| afrobeat_fool
Advanced Member Username: afrobeat_fool Post Number: 209 Registered: 7-2009 |
For me it is the constant thought process while playing. It is difficult to transpose. But to think of playing in Eb when my fingers are hitting what they know to be E natural, and to arpeggiate in that key and to move in the relative minors and tri-tone substitutions, not to mention moving thru modes.((ahhhhh!)) I'm freaking out. And then to play the next song in a standard tuning with a different axe. Weird. It is much easier to transpose as I have done for 25 years, and use the SF-2 to generate low bass response. What about the cloth string winding in the nut with shorter strings, not to mention Edwin's point of unwinding around the tuning post? I think it is an interesting idea though, Dave. Nick | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9336 Registered: 5-2002 |
A decade and a half or so ago, my guitar player shows up to rehearsal with his guitar tuned down and asks me to do the same on my bass. So I tune down and we play some tunes and the strings are just lying on the frets and buzzing all over the place and have no feel and response to them, and I'm thinking to myself that I've got an amazing bass (Alembic Essence) with wonderful strings (TI's) and I love the way my bass sounds and feels under my fingers; so why am I tuned down and putting up with this mushy tactile response. So I said no, we're not doing this; and tuned back up to E. I was a lot harder to get along with back then. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 994 Registered: 5-2009 |
That wet noodle bass string thing is lame ! good for you Dave! | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 1209 Registered: 11-2004 |
Dave, the same happened to me just a few weeks ago, a show band needed a dep, so I learnt the songs(which didn't float my boat) and when I got there he announced everything was half tone down, I said 'why?', he said so he didn't have to change the keys for his voice. I said he was cheating as opera singers don't say to the orchestra, 'change down please I can't handle this' He said if it is a problem you might as well leave..well I did as I am too old to put up with crap like that from people like him. I never understood this dropped tuning stuff, if you want to play beyond Eb then get a five stringer or get the keys player to play the same notes to compensate. Keep it concert, that is what I say | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9341 Registered: 5-2002 |
Terry; yes, the singer in your situation apparently doesn't get the relationship between fingers and strings and instruments. As far as dropped tuning, I do understand it from the perspective of someone like Stevie Ray Vaughan and other guitarists who have similar reasoning to him or are trying to get that tone and feel. Stevie liked really thick gauge strings for their tone, but the heavier the gauge the harder to do all the vibrato and string bending that Stevie does. The solution for Stevie was to tune down; he still gets the thick gauge tone with the flexibility that comes from lower tension. Of course those strings eventually destroyed his fingertips and he did eventually switch to a string that wasn't quite as thick. So, from that perspective I can understand tuning down. And I would imagine that for Tommy Shannon it was a wonderful experience to play bass with Stevie night after night. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 998 Registered: 5-2009 |
I went through the same recently and told a song writer who wants me to work on a demo with him that if he tuned down that I would being playing my 71 Fender Precision Bass that I have tuned B/E/A/D . He later said never mind I like the sound of the Alembic better. (Message edited by sonicus on May 26, 2010) | ||
| mario_farufyno
Senior Member Username: mario_farufyno Post Number: 443 Registered: 9-2008 |
Dave, it is not unusual to play half step down to a guy who had to play with Horns a lot. Horn players tend to use this Key on their compositions and arrangements since Saxes and Trumpets are tuned in Eb or Bb. This is why people like Chuck Berry, Steve Ray and many Gospel musicians got used to write and play in those tunnings. So some guitarrists opt to tune down, as they can play in a confortable key for the Horns and keep using open strings on the Guitar... | ||
| mario_farufyno
Senior Member Username: mario_farufyno Post Number: 444 Registered: 9-2008 |
Let me re-phrase that... I supose that Steve Ray tune down for keeping things easy to Horns. What I know is that Check Berry write in Eb because he started playing with a Pianist who played Jazz and usually wrote songs on this Key (since this Key is easy to tap on Keyboards and Saxes). | ||
| adriaan
Moderator Username: adriaan Post Number: 2494 Registered: 6-2002 |
Hm, lots of confusion regarding transposition here ... Saxes and trumpets can be Eb or Bb, meaning that if you ask them to give you a C, you will hear an Eb or Bb as it is on a piano. If you play a lot in a jazz setting, you'll get used to playing in F, since it is D or G for the horns (with just 1 or 2 sharps - but on a 4 string you can't really hit that all important Eb underneath, don't you hate it). Try getting them to play some guitar-oriented changes, and their brain will have to work overtime. Having PP, I have no problem detuning on bass or guitar. However, my brain will not allow me to refer to the open Eb as an open E (in my mind) so I have to do a little transposition in speaking. I can sing from notes from non-C tuning, but I have to transpose the notes I'm reading (no guarantees for any pleasant sounding notes in my singing, but that's another bucket of something). And if I try playing a keyboard that is tuned too low, my fingers can get lost completely. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1001 Registered: 5-2009 |
I play a few Brass instruments ; Trumpet Bb&C/ Mellophone Eb &F/ Baritone- Euphonium Bb etc ... ... ... . I have Played Classical, Jazz, Funk etc, etc, ... for 44 years I started when I was 10.I picked up the Electric Bass when I was 15 and I am now 54. In my experience in most cases horn players are given Arrangements that are written and transposed to accommodate standard tuning,Somtimes you write your own or transpose on the spot. They usually do not make accommodations for us to make it" easy on the horns" , but they do expect us to read the music unless it's all improvisation or real loose . (Message edited by sonicus on May 26, 2010) | ||
| afrobeat_fool
Advanced Member Username: afrobeat_fool Post Number: 210 Registered: 7-2009 |
Wolf, I've been meaning to ask you how you got into the mellophone. I know of one other guy who plays one. He was a long time L.A. guy, played in Franks band, and his dad was a big time writer/arranger. I love the sound! For me transposition is not that hard. I see it as placing a geometric pattern in a different location. Easier on the Piano, and Bass. Harder on the trombone, and guitar. I usually use a capo on guitar if I need to transpose. It is mostly a need to pacify a singer. But, sometimes a song just wants to be in a key. I have changed my own arrangements, and friends tunes if they SOUND better in another key. But what do you do when the singer is in the key of Zb? Nick | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1009 Registered: 5-2009 |
Nick , When I was in school in the 7th grade my "Band Teacher" used to juggle me and a few other Trumpet Players around between the Baritone Horn and Trumpet to help fix the poor intonation problems in the Slide Trombone section . I was always a good sport and went along with his plans and did not put up a big fuss. One day I ask if him I could try the" French horn looking thing with piston valves" , "you mean the Mellophone? " he answered ." OK then you have been a good Lad" go and take it out of the case then . He then handed me the Mellophone music. I have been ask to play it on occasion, I still like to play it from time to time although I play Bb & C Trumpet more as far as Brass instruments go . The Stan Kenton Band once had a swell "note worthy" Mellophone section . I know what you mean by "Zb singers" I have gone through that drill too _ LOL______ Wolf | ||
| keith_h
Moderator Username: keith_h Post Number: 1620 Registered: 2-2005 |
Mario, I'm not sure that guitar players like SRV tuned down to accommodate horns. I think it was to get more looseness and stretch from the strings. On a general note I used to have to transpose on the fly when my oldest daughter was young. She plays Bb clarinet and Ab soprano clarinet and would come ask me to help her on some of the harder parts. I would use my guitar and recall her getting frustrated at my slowness at times. :-) | ||
| mario_farufyno
Senior Member Username: mario_farufyno Post Number: 446 Registered: 9-2008 |
Adriaan, what I intended to mean was that many horn players arrange their songs in Eb or Bb (check Coltrane, for example, how many tunes he did in Eb? A lot, if remember right...). So if you had to play in a Band that plays most of their songs in Eb, it would be kind of natural tuning down a half-step, although I'd also prefer to transpose myself (I'm not a guitarrist and didn't like to use open strings on my riffs). To be honest, I don't know much about Stevie Ray and was just thinking out loud about the reasons some guitarrists would opt using low tunnings. In fact, there is a lot of Metal guys who play lower than half-step, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't have anything related to playing with Horns. LOL. You are right when say it relates more to the strech than to transpositions issues. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1011 Registered: 5-2009 |
? _ no ! But it is OK we still love you !!!!!!!!!!!!! (Message edited by sonicus on May 27, 2010) | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9347 Registered: 5-2002 |
Mario; if from nothing else than a history of music perspective, it may be worth getting to know Stevie Ray. Here's some Voodoo Child. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9348 Registered: 5-2002 |
And Texas Flood. I love this one; the close ups on his face show the intensity. In my view, Stevie's place in the history of music is exceedingly important. Here in the US, he was perhaps the driving force in a huge revival of the blues. His playing reflects a deep passion, a viscerally emotional feeling of the blues. I can highly recommend sitting down with your favorite beverage, turning the stereo up real loud, and listening to Stevie play guitar all night. | ||
| nnek
Junior Username: nnek Post Number: 33 Registered: 8-2009 |
I think I would stay with Texas Flood rather than Stevie doing a straight cover of Hendrix, who by the way did the same tune down trick. I think Stevie owes an awful lot to Jimi.... Check out Jimi's Blues CD, the first authorized post humus CD by the Hendrix family. Does anyone know if Noel or Billy Cox tuned down along with Jimi? | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 715 Registered: 10-2006 |
Yes, Stevie owed a huge debt to Jimi - but I think a close listen reveals as large a debt to Grady Martin, Dick Dale, & Barney Kessel, and an even bigger one to Albert King (and yes, I realize that ties into the Jimi thing, as JH was himself influenced by AK). All of which added up to a pretty sweet mix, if'n you was to ask me. My personal favorite is Riviera Paradise. Peter | ||
| adriaan
Moderator Username: adriaan Post Number: 2497 Registered: 6-2002 |
Mario - Coltrane songs in Eb - what type of score are you looking at? If you're looking at a piano score, then think one whole step up - the same score for tenor sax would be written in F. Now this is a gross simplification, since Coltrane is also known for the use of modes, where of course the flats and sharps are in different spots compared to the regular major and minor scales. Anyway - we're digressing - let's keep this thread on the subject of tuning down ... | ||
| groovelines
Senior Member Username: groovelines Post Number: 591 Registered: 4-2003 |
Giving in to curiosity and desire, I strung my bass BEAD. I was tired of missing out on the low Eb. Plus using the Eb on the A rarely sounded right with out moving the whole bass line up. Do I miss the G? Yup, but the keyboard is playing up there, so I'm not needed. I have yet to try tuning Eb, Ab, Db, Gb. @ Peter: +1 on Riviera Paradise | ||
| afrobeat_fool
Advanced Member Username: afrobeat_fool Post Number: 211 Registered: 7-2009 |
So... Peter you are absolutely correct with the Jimi, D.Dale, Albert King, references. I learned a lot on the road with Eric. The history of the drop tuning, the feel of the strings on the guitar when set up this way, the use of 4 different guitars to match the tonal qualities. Upside down guitars for string bending. Does anyone know what Jackie Newhouse did with his bass to keep the strings off the Neck when he tuned down for Stevie? I believe Noel and Billy both played their basses in standard tuning. I have seen a few vid's and they both are playing in the mid range of the neck. Nick | ||
| lmiwa
Advanced Member Username: lmiwa Post Number: 308 Registered: 2-2008 |
Has anyone tried either the DR Drop-Down Tuning strings or the Rotosound Drop Zone and Drop Zone Plus strings? | ||
| byoung
Senior Member Username: byoung Post Number: 1260 Registered: 12-2004 |
Just to be contrarian, I tune my bass up a half step: C F Bb Eb Ab Db. I play in church, and most church songs are in G, C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab. So much so, that when someone gets up to sing something you don't know, they hold up fingers for the number of "flats" you're playing in. I'm back to this tuning after a multi-year hiatus; we'll see if I get used to having usable open strings. Bradley | ||
| lmiwa
Advanced Member Username: lmiwa Post Number: 309 Registered: 2-2008 |
Bradley, That's exactly why I tune DOWN a half step - so I have the Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, and Gb open strings! Though it really started when I was playing only a four string and I never had the Eb that I needed. Since I still play 4, 5, and 6 string basses, it's easier to keep them all tuned the same way, even though it's really only the 4 that needs the extra 1/2 step. That's just what works for me of course... Loch |
