| Author | Message | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 1963 Registered: 6-2002 |
I am starting to think about looking for a used affordable small body series bass ( stanley style), but Id like to get a view on a few things to help me think this through properly. I currently have a SC Signature deluxe bass, F-1X, SF-2, QSC Power amp and a number of mesa boogie power house cabs so I have a great sound coming from that setup that I'm completely happy with. Will a series bass give me a significantly different and better quality sound than what I already have. I've listened to my bass critically alongside some of stanley clarkes music and also listened to some of Pierre's Signature bass and & Big Youth's series bass clips when they have been playing along with some clarkee stuff. No none of us sound exactly like Stanley I understand that completely, but there is a flavour of his tone in both Pierre and Big Youths playing and that maybe just because they are playing his material that I'm familiar with. And yes I can hear the difference between the series bass and the signature basses in those instances but the difference has not been as great as the difference between an alembic and a non alembic bass. Again if I was listening to the bass being used for bass lines not associated with alembic basses or ones I'm not familiar with would the difference in tone be as noticeable? I guess what I'd like to know is, if you are someone who has currently or who has owned both types of instruments, is the difference in between a signature bass and a series I bass significant enough to be obvious or is it subtle or simply a tonal preference. I have to say I have not played a series bass for long enough to determine this for myself. The build quality is the same for both instruments so thats not going to be an issue. Jazzyvee | ||
| crgaston
Senior Member Username: crgaston Post Number: 591 Registered: 11-2005 |
Jazzy, as I'm sure you know, each instrument is a law unto itself. But I'm guessing there's not really anything sonically you could do with a Series that you couldn't do with a Signature, with the exception of running it stereo into an F2B (which is awesome) and not having to change batteries all the time. I had a Rogue with Signature electronics plus the B/T cut/boost switches and it sounded fantastic...snappy, ballsy and more Fender-ish than my Series. But then, too it had a 3-piece maple neck with the walnut pinstripes vs the Mahogany/PH/Ebony/Maple. The Series has more sustain and headroom and an inherent warmth, plus the versatility (especially stereo, but even mono, too) is unparallelled. My opinion is...you should definitely keep shopping for an older small-body Series. Buy it, play it, compare them, then decide which one to keep. Or keep them both! :-) | ||
| glocke
Senior Member Username: glocke Post Number: 734 Registered: 9-2002 |
I own a SCSD, a SI, and a SII. They all sound great, they really, really do. Its really hard for me to say that one sounds better than the other. The series basses do give what to my ears sound like cleaner, hotter, more hifi type of sound than the SD does, and you also have more variety in terms of tones thanks to the series electronics, which doesnt really mean anything to me because I pretty much try and dial in the same tone no matter what bass I am playing. The series basses are also much, much more sensitive to sloppy technique, the SD is much more forgiving. On room recordings where I have played both a series bass and SD bass, there is a tonal difference. When I use my demeter/sf2/qsc rig I can almost (but not quite) make that difference go away. IMO, you are not missing out on great deal by not having series electronics, but there is a difference, and once you have a series bass you will notice it. Electronics aside, another thing to consider is the woods. The type of wood makes a huge tonal difference. My SI is maple, SII and SD are both cocobolo and there is a huge difference in sound between the maple and coco-bolo basses... I think if you were to put things in terms of automobiles, the SD is a porsce or a ferrari, while a SI or a SII is a Lambroghini. If you have the cash and can part with it easily, try and find a used series bass and discover these differences on your own. If you find that you dont need what it has to offer you can easily flip it with probably no monetary loss. Lastly, if I could only keep one of my bass it would be the SD. I would miss what the series basses have to offer, but I am finding more and more that the SD really fits all my needs. | ||
| mike1762
Senior Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 554 Registered: 1-2008 |
I have a Series I, SC Signature, Spoiler, and an Orion with Epic electronics. The Orion is set-neck and has no filter; therefore, it sounds more like a Fender than any of the others. The Spoiler (by virtue of no pan control and only 1 filter) is not as versatile tonewise. The Signature has the versatility of the Series I, but the tone IS different. I don't know how to explain it other than to say there is more "air"... it's brighter and the harmonics seem to have more presence. I think the difference is most pronounced when running the filters open. As you lower the cut-off point, the Series I and Signature start sounding more alike... to my ears anyway. | ||
| keith_h
Moderator Username: keith_h Post Number: 1621 Registered: 2-2005 |
JV, As I am sure you are aware I have both a Brown Bass and Series 1. Both have that Alembic sound or tone but they are noticeably different. I want to first qualify that the wood recipes in the two basses are very different. I think this has the largest effect on the over all sound of the instruments. In general I can get the sound of my Brown Bass to be quite bright at very close to flat settings on my Navigator. With my Series I have to make some readjustments to bring out the high end zing. On the other hand the Series has a better defined low end and a fuller or rounder overall sound than the Brown Bass. I say this based on comparing them without changing the EQ on the Navigator. I also feel that the sound is more open with the Series electronics. I attribute this mostly to the single coil pickups. As far as stereo mode you can get that in the Anniversary electronics. I have not used my Series in stereo mode yet.I have used my Brown Bass. When I have tried doing this it really opened up the sound that I hear. Well worth trying if you get the opportunity. I think my Series has the better overall sound. I do not intend to get rid of my Brown Bass and I still use it regularly for outdoor or short notice gigs. To me both offer a better sound and have better playing characteristics than other basses I have played. I recall seeing on this board one or two folks that preferred the Signature electronics over the Series 1. Just goes to show it is all personal taste. The best thing I can suggest (repeat if you prefer) is to try and play both side by side to decide for yourself. Keith | ||
| pierreyves
Senior Member Username: pierreyves Post Number: 592 Registered: 11-2006 |
Jazzy, don't forget the finger's player sound, attack or not, sweet or not...Big Youth and I play a lot of Stan's stuff, Big Youth play with mediator, I not. I have a nice sound on my home's Ashdown mag 300, I have a nice sound with my big rig too. In the thread on my Koa bass, I put yesterday a duet from 1982 with a series I, very warm sound. BUT with my tenor, the sound is too metallic for me. I think the reason is on the component of the C string (d'addario nickel wound xlb 032), but I'm not sure. In one or two... week I will receive my series II Koa bass. I will tell you my opinion in the first time of try. | ||
| pierreyves
Senior Member Username: pierreyves Post Number: 593 Registered: 11-2006 |
Hi Jazzy, here is the last version of Lopsy Lu, last week; SC deluxe, vermillon body, ADGC, F1-X, Yamaha P 5000S, SWR goliath senior, Carvin LS 1523; When I will have my Koa SII, I will play the same stuff with approximatively the same tone configuration. Edit: I love this version of Lopsy Lu because my bass player is present. His Name Is Ibrahim, great bassist from Senegal. (Message edited by pierreyves on May 30, 2010) | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 828 Registered: 11-2003 |
I won't rehash things here, but like other posters, I've owned/still own basses with Signature, Essence, Europa, Spoiler, Series II and Epic electronics. My LE Spyder had Anniversary electronics in it. In terms of the Sig and S2 electronics/package, I'd simply say this - what you get with the Sig electronics is multiplied 10 times. There's more warmth, versatility, balls, guts, call it what you will. My Series II blows just about everything I've ever played in over 33 years as a bassist away. Woods, as noted, have much to do with it, but the electronics do too. It all depends on what one likes, is willing to pay for, etc. Bottom line: Think of a Series instrument as Signature electronics on steroids. My two cents, Alan P.S. Pierre-Yves - nice playing. Wish I could do that kind of thing. | ||
| lmiwa
Advanced Member Username: lmiwa Post Number: 305 Registered: 2-2008 |
Hey Jazzy, here's my two cents worth... When comparing the sound of a Signature Deluxe to a Series I, the wood is the #1 determining factor, not the electronics. The only way to get a comparison of the electronics would be to compare two basses with exactly the same wood construction and only the electronics being different. Otherwise, it is far more likely that any difference you are hearing is due to the difference between the woods, not the electronics. I had the Rogue crgaston mentioned and have a Series II. Wish I still had both - completely different sounds due to totally different wood. So my advice would be to get a combination of woods that sounds best to you, Series I or Signature. Try as many as you can and keep the one(s) you fall in love with! Just my opinion of course... Loch | ||
| serialnumber12
Senior Member Username: serialnumber12 Post Number: 748 Registered: 12-2004 |
put it this way.......series Basses carry '****** *****' than the rest! [moderator's edit: language] (Message edited by davehouck on May 31, 2010) | ||
| toma_hawk01
New Username: toma_hawk01 Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2009 |
A Pitbull vs Rin Ten Ten and Lasie | ||
| slammin
Junior Username: slammin Post Number: 40 Registered: 10-2009 |
I think my Persuader sounds pretty good until Pierre posts his sound. Then I get depressed and start looking in the For Sale section for a Series. Thanks, Pierre. Now I need to go play with my setup some since I cannot get a Series yet. You got mad skillz ans an awesome sound! To Jazzyvee, SC Signature deluxe bass, F-1X, SF-2 would be my dream setup. I will most likely seek an F-1X and or SF-2 before going to a Series, but my love of the SC body style and short scale are the main motivation for me going that route. Ultimately I would like to get a Series II though. | ||
| pierreyves
Senior Member Username: pierreyves Post Number: 594 Registered: 11-2006 |
hmm... I will open a thread to sale one of my SC deluxe... | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 1964 Registered: 6-2002 |
It would be good to try out a series SC style bass side by side with my signature for long enough to establish the differences properly whether subtle or major, but at the moment the only UK dealer for alembics is not showing stock of series basses so that is not an option. I will keep my eyes open to see if any come along. Thanks for the responses, they are as expected very interesting and I'm quite fascinated at the comments about the woods being a major determining factor in sound comparison between the two types of bass. I say that mainly because I'm sure I've read comments from Mica in one of the threads in the past stating that the majority of the sound of alembics is in the neck and the body woods tend to refine that but not dominate the sound. So it is quite interesting that some of your personal experiences show a different viewpoint. That certainly makes the choice more challenging when looking for a used bass since I would have less choice in wood options than with a commissioned bass and that option is not possible in the near future. Jazzyvee | ||
| mike1762
Senior Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 555 Registered: 1-2008 |
All of my Alembic basses have the same neck recipe (3 piece maple) except the Series I has 2 PH laminates. All have a Mahogany core with a Maple top except for the Bocate topped Spoiler. The Spoiler and SC Signature have a similar "voice" (especially when running the filters open) despite having different scale lengths and the different tops. As I mentioned above, the Orion sounds the most like a Fender and the SI is just something else all-together. All of these basses "play" VERY differently; and as such, I'm most comfortable with (in order of comfort!!!) the Spoiler (PERFECT), Orion (feels like a Fender but doesn't have the tone I associate with an Alembic), SC (I love the short scale, but it's neck heavy), and bringing up the rear: the Series I (the Standard Point design makes the 1st few positions a long reach and it is also neck heavy). I think our "comfort" with a particular instrument changes our approach/technique with that instrument and that will translate to subtle or not-so-subtle changes in tone. I've noticed that I usually "pluck" with the pads of my fingers; but when I play the SI, I rotate my wrist so that I'm favoring the sides of my fingers. That takes your nails (which in my opinion gives you a sharp attack, but sounds "harsh" on the SI) out of the equation. With absolutely no Science to back me up, I think tone is influenced by (in order of importance): 1) Skills!!! 2) Strings (Rounds vs Flats vs Other) 3) Technique (Finger vs Pick vs Other) 4) Electronics (PUPs, passive vs active, etc) 5) Neck design (Through vs Set vs Bolt-on) 6) Neck woods 7) Body woods 8) Other stuff I didn't include your "Rig"... I'm not sure where I think that fits in. I don't know... in what order would you guys put these elements??? | ||
| lmiwa
Advanced Member Username: lmiwa Post Number: 307 Registered: 2-2008 |
Jazzyvee, I don't think my comments are at odds with Mica's comments. In general, the electronics in Alembic instruments sound vastly different from non-Alembic instruments. And that difference completely overshadows the differences between woods within a particular Alembic model. If you were asking about an instrument with a single filter and fixed Q versus a Series instrument, then I would have said the Series electronics were WAY more flexible. But you are asking about two instruments that both have dual filters with switchable Q. And while working with volume/blend is somewhat different from two volumes, I don't think that really affects the sound. So my comments about the wood making a big difference was within the very narrow confines of two instruments with very similar controls. I had two Rogues with different top wood (Wenge vs Walnut) and all the rest of the wood was the same. With the controls set the same (Q off, filters open), there was a discernable difference between them. That difference was very obvious to me, but not to anyone else in my family. However, they could all tell the difference between them and my Fender P-bass! For me there's also a huge difference between the wenge Rogue and my coco bola Series II. On a good day some of my family could tell the difference... And while there's a difference, I don't consider it a better/worse quality thing, but rather a difference in character - blue isn't a "better" color than yellow. So I would say my Series has a "huge, round" sound and the Wenge Rogue had a "snappy, aggressive" sound. My take on that is the ebony in the neck and coco bola body in the Series versus the all maple neck and Wenge body in the Rogue, not the difference in electronics. That said, if someone offered me a free upgrade from Signature electronics to Series electronics, I most certainly would accept!  Loch | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 1213 Registered: 11-2004 |
Can we become obsessed with tone, the basses we use have loads of tone options,Series II being the ultimate at your fingertips without going to your amp. All modern bass amps have so many parameters it is difficult to choose between them at times. Then there is types of pick up, body woods, playing techniques. I had racks loads of gear back in the 80/90's, I had a custom 22 band graphic for gods sake!, compressors, power amps etc, in the end I got sick of lugging it around and went back to basics and this was before I got my MK in 1998, I was using a P bass with Almebic activators and it was a Squier. I think jimmyj quoted sometime ago about plugging his Alembic into a power amp and speakers only and using what you have got on the guitar, lets face it S2 controls with vari Q, filters and master volume is like having a mixing desk on your bass. Sometimes less is more in many cases, in cooking anything more than 5 flavours then your palate becomes confused..maybe it is the same with your ears?? | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1026 Registered: 5-2009 |
terryc, Yes , I think that there is truth in your statement .I have to watch my self from getting " over processed "in my approach as well.( that can be a challenge for me) I have tried My Series II through just a power amp and a pair of speaker cabinets and was delighted at the results ; Thanks JImmy J , for that idea ! | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 6780 Registered: 6-2000 |
I have witnessed many players who never look back after getting their Series I/II. It's a very difficult thing to put into words. I wear glasses all day. Once in a while it occurs to me to actually clean them (usually with Alembic polish (shameless plug and of course always on my desk)), and then it's like "WHOA!" suddenly I can see. When I compare Series instruments to other models we make, it's like I can suddenly hear. The other models aren't bad and certainly sound very, very good. But there is something about the Series I/II instruments that is like opening your eyes wide. You could see before, but now there are details revealed that were previously obscured. See how hard it is to talk about tone? | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9358 Registered: 5-2002 |
I'll say this about Signature; Art came by the other day and brought his MK, plugged it into my F-1X, running into a Carver power amp and an Eden 210XLT. It sounded great! | ||
| otis
Advanced Member Username: otis Post Number: 203 Registered: 10-2008 |
Mica, I totally agree. I can't imagine having anything other than a Series I or II now that I have my Series II Six. Nothing else compares, and I've played a lot of great Alembics! They do all sound great, but there's just something magical about the Series instruments- why else would Stanley Clarke play only Series Basses? There's a clue, right there- the tone is crystal clear and beautiful beyond words. Nothing else comes close! Peace All;) Frank | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 829 Registered: 11-2003 |
Mica is spot on if you ask me. She's absolutely right in that all of Alembic's models are very well made, and sound/play great. It's just that the Series instruments are all that and then some. I find myself reaching for my SII more than my other Alembics (a SC Sig Std, a Dragon's Wing with Sig electronics, an Essence and an Epic). It is just ... it's hard to describe as Mica notes. To me, it's just more warm, defined, deep, etc. If I had to define a Series instrument vice another Alembic without Series electronics, I'd simply say this - the tone is pure. There's nothing there that could possibly mask the tone - it's clean, unadulterated, crisp, defined. Once one plays a Series instrument, one really gets a feel for what tone really means. Well, I did anyway, after I got my Series II. I'm just glad the Alembic company exists, and brings so much joy to those of us who own and play these instruments. Alan | ||
| pierreyves
Senior Member Username: pierreyves Post Number: 632 Registered: 11-2006 |
Jazzy... when you will turn on series instrument, never come back... my koa bass is simply the best bass I never had. | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 2017 Registered: 6-2002 |
I have to thank you guys for responding because I really understand how subjective tone is and how difficult it is to describe. But there is something in all of your descriptions that i can relate to easily when comparing my alembic to another non alembic bass. Mica your description of tone clarity is just how I felt when I bought my first Alembic. I doubt if I would ever convince myself to stump up the cost of a brand new series bass but a used one depending configuration and cost would be an option I could consider. However of all my alembic instruments which includes a series I electric guitar, I prefer the sound of my SC deluxe signature bass overall and if for some reason I had to sell them all bar one, I would be happy with the tone I would be left with. Although I'm primarily a guitarist, on that bass I feel I have found "my voice on a stringed instrument" and the versatility and clarity of tone is incredible. I don't use any effects etc and just have a signal line of F1-x, SF-2, QSC and Mesa boogie cabs. I can't find any fault with the tone I can achieve using that and my fingers. I have two other basses with europa electronics and although they sound great, I often find myself reaching for another filter which isn't there so I firmly believe the additional filter does make a huge noticeable difference to the sound that is produced from the instrument. I think one of my main concerns about having a series I bass is what I find with my series guitar. I'm a master volume control type of guy and all my guitars bar the series I guitar have single volumes which allows me to easily drop the volume without affecting the pickup balance between bridge and neck. Whereas the series has two pots and trying to adjust them and keep the same balance is frustrating for me and would be one of the reasons that would put me off getting one. But I would still relish the opportunity for a side by side session to at least give my head some clarity on the pro's and cons. In the meantime I keep my eyes open here and on Ebay for the right bass to come along. Jazzyvee | ||
| tbrannon
Senior Member Username: tbrannon Post Number: 1196 Registered: 11-2004 |
Jazzy, I'm with you on the master volume control. I chose the signature setup on my Elan for that reason. However, there have been several series basses built with a master volume included in the control layout. I'm sure that the circuitry could be added to a Series I bass if you bought one used. A series bass is somewhere in my future- and when it happens, I'll be looking to add a master volume. | ||
| pierreyves
Senior Member Username: pierreyves Post Number: 633 Registered: 11-2006 |
the most intelligent could be to replace vol neck and volume bridge imn series I & II by balance (neck/bridge) control and master volume as signature series no ? Not need to add another control ! | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 2018 Registered: 6-2002 |
Yes Pierreyves, I think that would be ok also. I do find that setup quicker and more intuitive when using my signature bass. tbrannon, I have read of a basss like that on the forum some time in the past. I think there was a long interesting thread somewhere about the pro's and cons of individual volume controls versus pan and master. Maybe I will have a look for that and have another read. Jazzyvee | ||
| tbrannon
Senior Member Username: tbrannon Post Number: 1197 Registered: 11-2004 |
Pierre, If removing the two individual volumes and inserting a pan and master volume could be done simply it would be ideal for my preferences. | ||
| tbrannon
Senior Member Username: tbrannon Post Number: 1198 Registered: 11-2004 |
Jazzy, Here are two of the threads discussing master volume +pan vs dual volume controls http://www.alembic.com/club/messages/402/26700.html?1150007109 http://alembic.com/club/messages/393/12728.html | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 681 Registered: 5-2002 |
My impending Series I will have a blend and master volume setup. It requires special pots to maintain the stereo signal. I guess there's one of us here that's fond of that setup, so they keep a few on hand. I'm looking forward to being able to check that out! | ||
| tbrannon
Senior Member Username: tbrannon Post Number: 1199 Registered: 11-2004 |
Good to know Edwin- thanks for that information. I was actually thinking of emailing Mica and asking her as I think I'll be ready to start looking for a used Series I around the New Year. If I get my hands on one, I'd be interested in doing the swap. | ||
| mike1762
Senior Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 590 Registered: 1-2008 |
One of the Mods might want to consider adding David's post (from the 1st link) to the "Must Read" section regarding the "master volume + pan vs dual volume controls". I think I finally understand the issues after reading his explanation. | ||
| toma_hawk01
Junior Username: toma_hawk01 Post Number: 32 Registered: 9-2009 |
Jazzy, I have a master volume on one of my basses and I absolutely love it. The value of setting up the sounds you're looking for between the neck and bridge is the the first thing I seek, and the master volume, is the last step, before taking sail. For me, the master volume, is like the "rutter" on a great ship, that points me in the right direction. I am more than likely, be adding a master volume on my 76 shorty one of these days; along with serving or replacing my existing pots. Peace and Love, Hal- | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1136 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hal, I like your "rutter" analogy . I like the master volume on my SII as well. |
