| Author | Message | ||
| mike1762
Senior Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 576 Registered: 1-2008 |
bsee and I just swapped pre-amps (my F-2B for his F-1X). I needed the direct out more than I needed the 2nd channel and his unit is "less old" than mine, so I felt OK about the swap. My question is: Is there any utility in bi-amping if you are already running a full range enclosure (I have an El Whappo Jr cabinet that already has a 4 way passive x-over)? I was considering getting a Tri-115L to go along with the Jr, but the more I've thought about it I'm not sure I would gain anything other than having a cooler looking rig. | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 736 Registered: 10-2006 |
As the Whappo Jr. has a low range of of 39hZ, & the Tri-115L is also a full-range that goes to 38hZ, I don't see an advantage there. Now if you were to throw a Whappo Grande (1X21", 22hZ, no smaller drivers) under there, it might be worth your while. Peter | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1104 Registered: 5-2009 |
I have been running a small full range cabinet very close to drummers. (2x10 EV in an infinite baffle PAS cabinet ) It really helps to lock in with the drummer. I usually get smiles all around when the groove is sweet as a result . That is priceless to me from an improvisational angle. | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 2479 Registered: 3-2004 |
I never tried to bi-amp the F-1X, but I have tried to run bi-amp rigs in the past. I was never quite happy with the results, but maybe it's about the tone I like. I felt that there always seemed to be a bit of a scoop at the crossover frequency. I'm sure that the right crossover parameters and EQ could have cured it. If I were running a stadium-sized rig or looking for reggae-quality deep bottom, it probably would have been worth solving the issue. As a fingerstyle rock player, I live in the midrange. I don't need tons of shimmer, and low mids are more important to me than the very lowest bass frequencies. I can have very tight response in my important ranges without individually amplifying frequencies. If it's about a cool looking rig, then get yourself a second cab to run full range and put a Korg rack tuner in your rig. For some reason, the crowds get mesmerized by the lights on the Korg. The difference between bi-amping and running through a 3-way or 4-way cab is just where the crossover is in the circuit. Do you put it between the preamp and the amp, or between the amp and the drivers. For the highly technical out there, what are the important differences between the two approaches? I would think that a crossover early in the circuit would allow you to individually process each range for EQ or effects if you were so inclined. It would also let you tailor the amplifier power to the needs of each frequency range. | ||
| keith_h
Moderator Username: keith_h Post Number: 1641 Registered: 2-2005 |
I see no advantage in trying to bi-amp your existing cabinet with something else. Your current cabinet was designed to run full range and adding a sub-woofer will most likely not improve your sound (could even make it worse). To bi-amp or n-amp your rig you would have a variety of cabinets designed for each frequency range. In the case of a bi-amp you would typically have the sub handle everything down from 98Hz down (give or take) and the mid/high everything above 98Hz. The advantage with bi-amping is each amp is limited in the signal range it has to reproduce and can be better matched to each driver. The same is can be said for the speaker cabinets. It also overcomes some of the inefficiencies of passive crossovers. Bi-amping also brings in the need to look at time alignment of the driver but that is an entirely different subject/argument that doesn't need to be discussed here. As Bob mentions some folks can notice a hole in the crossover area. One way to fill it is put the subs and tops in phase. Keith | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 840 Registered: 11-2003 |
I've bi-amped for years, and actually prefer it. I don't use the full-range cabs that others have mentioned, so that might have something to do with it. My cabs are Ampeg BXT series (no longer made), 1X15, 2X10, and 4X10, each with a tweeter with a control on the back to control tweeter output. I generally turn down the tweeters to a manageable (to me, anyway) level. I like the fact that I can send the lows to one cab, and the highs to another via bi-amping. Others may not. It works for me. And I use and F1-X and an SF-2. Alan | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1111 Registered: 5-2009 |
I have also bi-amped for many years with many different configurations with separate external crossovers and other signal processing. I also have made a simple passive phase reverse interface that is basically just a DPDT switch mounted in a box with jacks that I use for some circumstances . Sometimes I like to run the mids and highs through additional signal processing while leaving the lows unprocessed. I have for many years depending on the situation also liked to have a small full range cabinet for the drummer to hear me better ,sometimes with a completely separate amplifier . The Alembic F-1X is very useful in any such configuration. | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1416 Registered: 9-2002 |
It's easy enough to bi-amp. The hard part is finding the two cabinets that are complimentary to each other to work as a unified piece. In the late 70's, these rigs began to sprout as their were no powerful dedicated bass rigs, save for a few old warhorses like SVT's, Sunn or Peavey Coliseums or Festivals, or the Acoustics. Usually hooked up to folded-horn 18's ! In sound reinforcement, there are lots of cabs built specifically for their intended range as parts of systems of cabinets designed to work together (think Meyer, EAW, JBL, TurboSound, etc.). In bass guitar cabinets, there just isn't a lot of system-think for cats that want to bi- or even tri-amp a bass guitar rig. Some of the builders do sell subwoofer-ish cabs to add to their full range bins, but it's an add-on situation, not optimal. Then, past whatever the specs say, does it sound musical? Even with my unsophisticated ears, I can hear the time-smear of the subwoofer dragging in after the hi-pass fires on some rigs. And as others have pointed out above, the crossover is all-important to tone as well. But they're third party gear. As you can see, trying to blend all these things can take quite a search. I've had them before and have never felt led back to them. However . . . PA bins are going to power amps built in. So I am very interested to try a 2-way rig daydreamed by me, and confirmed by a recent converstaion with the wizards at Bag End: Bag End now builds their ELF subwoofer with the ELF circuit and a power amp and a crossover built in. Couple this to their 210 with HiDrive and the same power amp built in as well . . . systemized, tuned for those particular cabinets, this is sounding REAL interesting. Not to mention the inputs can go line-level where I don't even need a preamp, if I want to go 'straight, no chaser' like our friend Jimmy J. Will HAVE to make the next BagEnd get-together! (Note: I know BagEnd no longer call it ELF, but I do!) J o e y | ||
| keith_h
Moderator Username: keith_h Post Number: 1643 Registered: 2-2005 |
I actually use a Bag End ELF system. I run up to two 18" subs and two 2X10" high cabinets. The nice thing about the ELF integrator is it handles the time alignment I mentioned in my previous post. It also has a style of limiting that Bag End calls concealment. It is very musical and unnoticeable in the way it works. Keith | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1113 Registered: 5-2009 |
Yes ,_the "Time- Align" system used by Bag End seems to address that problem effectively . I had the good fortune to have been able to stop off at the Bag End Booth at a recent AES Convention for a demonstration and listening test. it really makes a difference. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9422 Registered: 5-2002 |
I have an Elf system too that I really like; it really smooths out the low end. But I haven't used it in a couple of years now since I only play in my living room these days. So I'm running full range through a pair of Bag End 2x10's. | ||
| jacko
Senior Member Username: jacko Post Number: 2637 Registered: 10-2002 |
what happened to Montford Park Dave? Graeme | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9436 Registered: 5-2002 |
Graeme; two and a half years ago the guitar player, Jon, chose not to rebook us at our regular gig since making gigs in the middle of the winter in the mountains can be problematic (for instance, this past winter I was snowed in pretty much most of the season and couldn't have made a gig if I had one). So we lost our place on the schedule. At the same time, our drummer moved to Atlanta to go to recording school. We played our last gig in May two years ago at a street fair. Subsequently Jon got very involved in the local jazz scene and now plays with several bands and some great players. And of course June two years ago is when I got my six string, which I've been learning how to play ever since. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 677 Registered: 5-2002 |
Dave, I see you are taking a different approach to integrating the 6 than I did. Right after I finished building mine (a Modulus Q6 neck on a mahogany body) I took it to a gig. Pretty much hit the ground running! Years of playing a 5 string helped. Anyway, to get on topic: I biamped for a long time and really liked it. I used EV drivers with an 18 on the bottom and a 10 on the top. I felt like it really allowed me to control my tone and response with a different kind of flexibility than a full range system. Also, back in those days (up until the mid 90s) there weren't too many full range speakers that I really liked all that well. What really got me off biamping was deciding to run my rig in stereo. Lugging two F1Xs and two stereo power amps was just too much. | ||
| charles_holmes
Junior Username: charles_holmes Post Number: 46 Registered: 3-2009 |
 Huh?!  | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1125 Registered: 5-2009 |
Nice system ! | ||
| charles_holmes
Junior Username: charles_holmes Post Number: 47 Registered: 3-2009 |
You're looking at 2x10" 1x18";2 2450's F-1X and SF with an Extra F-1X (but the Lexicon is going there upon repair.) Needless to say this sounds great, and I sooooo love it! | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9444 Registered: 5-2002 |
Edwin; yeah, I'm a bit slow. Admittedly, I do check craigslist regularly, but I rarely see much that interests me; and when I do, I don't get responses to my inquiries. I always include a link to the demos that I put up on the web a year ago, but I'm starting to think that people are probably finding the demos to be nowhere near what they're wanting to do, and thus I get no responses. But that's ok, since I really do need to spend more time learning how to play my bass. And to avoid the hijacking police, since this thread was started I've given bi-amping some more thought since it would be nice to run a clean low end single and then run my effects between the high end output and the power amp. But one effect that I keep thinking about possibly employing in the future is pitch-bending; and I could see where that might be a bit of a problem if only part of your signal is being bent. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 678 Registered: 5-2002 |
I can't imagine calling you slow, I just have a tendency to jump off into the deep end without looking! Music for me has always an adventure of the moment and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't (although experience has taught me how to make the failures less dramatic). Craigslist can be difficult. I've never found any satisfying musical opportunities there. For your biamp ideas, I think you need to insert effects in more than one spot. Pitch shifting should indeed come before the crossover, but I would imagine that reverb and delays being only in the high end would clean things up considerably. However, then things get really complicated when sending DIs to the PA. They would need a high and a low send. For that reason, I've always biamped the whole signal. However, I did split my signal up when I did a lot of looping. Having a separate loop send makes a lot of people's lives much easier (especially the drummer who is trying to stay in time with the loop). Chalie, that is indeed what I was thinking of when I was typing about a stereo biamped rig! |
