| Author | Message | ||
| rockbassist
Intermediate Member Username: rockbassist Post Number: 176 Registered: 8-2005 |
I have had an Epic for about four years and love the bass. I am curious though as to why Alembics do not seem to hold their value as well as some other brands. The price of a new Epic starts at $6,300 and you can find them used for around $1,500. Many used Fenders and Music Man basses are selling for close to their original retail value and older ones are selling for much more. You would think that since there are fewer Alembics out there that the resale price would be higher. Don't get me wrong, I love my Epic and have no intention of ever selling it. Just wondering what everyone else thinks. Please do not reply with a lesson on supply and demand economics. I am hoping to get some real honest opinions. | ||
| mike1762
Senior Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 625 Registered: 1-2008 |
I think it's the ability to customize an instrument to YOUR specs that appeals to those who take the plunge and order a new build. As such, nearly every instrument is`unique in some way. When you're buying used, you're buying a bass that likely does not posses YOUR ideal features. Therefore, it's not worth anything approaching the cost of a new build (otherwise you'd just order a new one). Although you don't want to be the original owner trying to sell one, Alembics hold their value very well for all subsequent sales. An old Music Man might be worth more than a new one because of features found on them that are no longer offered (the old 2 band EQ, 3 bolt neck, string-through-body bridge, etc). | ||
| tmoney61092
Senior Member Username: tmoney61092 Post Number: 429 Registered: 9-2008 |
i think since the new sale value is so high that people wouldn't be willing to pay more for a used one when they could get a custom for about the same price, my opinion ~Taylor | ||
| tmoney61092
Senior Member Username: tmoney61092 Post Number: 430 Registered: 9-2008 |
hahaha, that's weird, same post at the same time, clever minds think a like ~Taylor | ||
| garth4664
Intermediate Member Username: garth4664 Post Number: 128 Registered: 10-2008 |
Slightly off topic but relevant. I'm in China and seeing some interesting changes. For one thing rock, jazz, pop, funk and generally western music and instruments are becoming more popular. This happened many decades ago in Japan but is still at the beginning here. If we look at Chinese culture, generally the wealthy people want the best that money can buy if they can afford it. In terms of basses this will mean Alembics. Take home messages are: 1. Sooner or later there will be a Beijing Alembic dealer (perhaps I should start one) 2. Eventually there will be demand here for second hand and vintage instruments 3. Expect this to change the supply/demand balance for high end instruments (no change to the low end, they are all coming from China) 4. You will kick yourself for not grabbing the opportunity to get a Series 1 or 2 for $4000 on the second hand market Just a thought, may not be as fast as I anticipate, but a year ago there were no decent basses for sale in Beijing, now there are 3 stores where I can buy something I would actually want to play. | ||
| rockbassist
Intermediate Member Username: rockbassist Post Number: 177 Registered: 8-2005 |
Mike, I think the ability to customize is important to anyone considering purchasing a new bass but most used bass will not possess your ideal features. Any bass can be customized. Why for example, do some Fender Jazz basses sell for more than twice their original price yet many Alembics sell for less than half? I think it should be other way around considering the quality of Alembics. | ||
| mike1762
Senior Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 626 Registered: 1-2008 |
True, but most production basses are pretty much cookie cutter fare: Fender Jazz basses of a particular era will tend to be the same. If the current vogue is that 19XX FJ basses are really bitchin', they will all command a premium price. I think that doesn't happen with Alembics because they are all so unique... you can't predict what one Series I will sound like based on the sound of another Series I from the same year. Thus there just isn't a vintage market for Alembic. But I concur... it ain't right!!! | ||
| malthumb
Senior Member Username: malthumb Post Number: 479 Registered: 5-2002 |
I agree with the issue around customization. Money spent on LEDs, multiple multiple laminates, off the hook inlays will not factor much into the resale price of the more expensive instruments. On the other hand, the price increases that have been made over the past 10 or so years benefits the used markets for instruments bought before the price increases. I bought my custom in 2000. I went on the quote generator last week and specced out a bass exactly to the specs of the bass I received in 2000. It priced out at about $8K more than the list price I was quoted when I ordered it. Of course the dealer discount and the special of the month helped bring my actual price down. Bottom line....I see similar basses offered used for just a little less than I paid for mine in 2000. Peace, James | ||
| kryan1
New Username: kryan1 Post Number: 1 Registered: 6-2010 |
I am also wondering why used Alembics do not hold value. I recently went to sell my 1982 Distillate that is in mint condition and was syrprised at the offer | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 2076 Registered: 6-2002 |
Used good condition Series basses still seem to hold their price at a level above my budget regardless of their age. :-) Jazzyvee | ||
| mike1762
Senior Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 627 Registered: 1-2008 |
It's been my experience that used Alembics DO hold their value. I'm confident that I could sell any of mine for more that I paid. Now if you overpaid to begin with, that's a different issue. Sometimes you might be WILLING to pay above the "going rate". If I found a used medium/short scale Balance K Series I/II with ebony/PH lams in the neck, maple body, CB top, and a Vermillion back, I would be willing to "overpay" for it because it's EXACTLY what I would custom order. Even if I paid 1-2K more than what you could reasonably expect the bass to bring in the used market, I'm still saving money. Since those are specs that most folks would NOT want in an Alembic, I doubt I would find myself in a "bidding war" anyone and I would expect to pick-up the instrument for LESS that the going rate. | ||
| tubeperson
Intermediate Member Username: tubeperson Post Number: 114 Registered: 5-2005 |
Mike, I think the older the Alembic, the better it's resale value relative to its original sales price would be more accurate based on what I have seen. Let's say you pay $12,000 for a Series II made within the last few years even used. The number of buyers is very small to support making money on that, whereas more people are willing to spend $3,000 - $5,000 for the older Series treasures we see on eBay and the club site. Just look at the Walnut Series II at Bass NW. That $15,000 asking price is very high, maybe even higher than the original price (I suspect this is the case). Has it sold yet? No, even if we all get aroused oogling over it. Wish I had so much money I could make Brewsters Millions II - "The White Trash" years (all of you PC people please have a sense of humor!!!!!!!). Then I could "waste" my value dollars and buy it strictly on the emotional value, and perhaps bragging rights. Since I own the Roman Conqueror, and The Ed Roman Triple Omega, both Series basses, I know from what I state here. Perhaps in another 25 years the Alembics will outperform the vintage Fenders in investmet value, and not just sonic value, but the value I see in the Alembic brand far transcends dollars. Just my 2 depreciated cents! By then Mica will be a grandmother!!!! (If that is what see wants of course). Most luxury items you get better value if you buy used, as long as you know what you are buying. | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 759 Registered: 10-2006 |
When I worked at (oh, the shame of it) Guitar Center in '83-'84, we had a Spoiler in the store marked for $1500. That seems to be the bottom end of the range they're going for now. That strikes me as holding value pretty well. OK, yes, we had '50s Gibson hollowbodies for $125-150 that you can't touch for under $3000 now, and a '61 "SG" Les paul for $1500 that pushes $100K now, but I'm talking about holding value, not insanity. Peter (who really wishes he'd been a good enough salesman to afford those then) | ||
| rockbassist
Intermediate Member Username: rockbassist Post Number: 178 Registered: 8-2005 |
Mike I disagree with you. As I mentioned in my original post, a new Epic is $6,300 yet you can get them used for around $1,500. I actually paid $1,000 for my 1997 Epic several years ago so I know I could easily get more than that for it. I bought another Epic 2 years ago for $900 and sold it for clsoe to $2,000 but that is still much less than its original cost. Cozmik's post makes me kind of sick to my stomach. In the early 1980's my guitar player had a 61 SG. At the time he only paid around $400 for it. He sold it a couple of years later for $475. If he only knew. | ||
| mike1762
Senior Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 628 Registered: 1-2008 |
We're making the same point (note I said USED Alembics hold their value)... if you're the original owner, expect to take a beating if/when you sell it. Bass NW will never sell that Walnut Series II unless they just happen to run across someone who wants those exact specs and doesn't have the patience to wait for a new build. As with Kevin's Epic, I bought all mine used and I feel OK about the money I spent. I have a Music Man Cutlass I. I paid a little over $1000 for it new. Although there were only about 600 of them made, they only go for about $2000 now. That is a terrible rate of return over a 30 year time period; thus, I just don't look at these things as "investments". | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1464 Registered: 9-2002 |
I read Vintage Guitar, and as I live in Nashville, occasionally troll through Gruhn Guitars, and in both cases am always flummoxed by the vagaries of the used guitar market. I can understand certain things, but in general you just have to chalk it up to supply and demand and what's a new one cost/are these still being made and are the new ones any good. I've generally stayed out of the usual Les Paul/Strat/Martin scene. I've generally followed the 80's Japanese guitars, whether the Matsumoku items or 'lawsuit guitars' or overlooked gems like the Yamaha SG2000 and the Ibanez Artists, as well as their bass counterparts. They're all going up as they're rediscovered by new people, and they are rarely available new anymore as Japanese labor/exchange rates skyrocket. Aria SB's are as expensive now as originally sold, even while Aria is re-issuing them in a VERY fine recreation. Yamaha in America is as clueless as ever, so new SG's are pretty rare. Old Music Mans are vintage to kids born about the time they came out originally. Steinberger headless axes are going up; several years ago you could buy them all day long for less than a grand. Alembics (and generally most 'boutique' basses) always take a hit as small builders have no way to sell in big volume. But it makes a great way to afford them for those of us in the used market. I read the endless promotion that a closet full of primo vintage pieces is a better 'investment' than tradtional investments. Anybody remember the vintage sports/exotic car market from the 80's and the ensuing crash of that market in the 90's? No thanks. I just want them to play. EVERY market invariably crashes and prices readjust. J o e y | ||
| white_cloud
New Username: white_cloud Post Number: 4 Registered: 6-2010 |
Its because new Alembics, despite being awesome are overpriced! | ||
| tubeperson
Intermediate Member Username: tubeperson Post Number: 115 Registered: 5-2005 |
Then new USA made Fenders, especially the Custom Shop are also overpriced. I bouth a 1959 NOS Blond Precision and the neck had to be replaced by Fender within the first year. At that level it never should have happened. At least they did honor their warranty. | ||
| rockbassist
Intermediate Member Username: rockbassist Post Number: 179 Registered: 8-2005 |
Mike, You are correct. Your post does state that used Alembics hold their value but why don't new Alembics? Sadowsky's Pedulla's and even Fender's hold value. Why not Alembic? I love my Alembics but like I stated in my original post, why do they drop in value when they are used? Tubeperson, I agree Fender Custom shop basses are over priced but I don't think real vintage Fenders are. I also play guitar. I love Les Pauls (Gibson not Epiphone or as I like to call the Epiphony) Gibsons are way over priced. You can get 3 Fenders for the price of a Gibson. Bigredbass, I appreciate your input on the Japanese guitars but to be honest, I will never buy a bass that is made outside of the US and even then, only if I can touch it, feel it, play it. I've had several Music Man's and have had dead spots in every one of them. I will never play one again. Ten yeard ago, I had a relatively inexpensive Ibanez that sounded great, but I love vintage Fender Jazz, Alembics and Sadowsky. | ||
| tmoney61092
Senior Member Username: tmoney61092 Post Number: 462 Registered: 9-2008 |
anything that came out of Matsumoku is worth it, i have a rickenbacker copy and les paul copy that came form there in the 70's that are 2 of my favortite instruments, they are cheap and as good as what they are copying ~Taylor |
