| Author | Message | ||
| thumbsup
Intermediate Member Username: thumbsup Post Number: 171 Registered: 7-2008 |
wish i was more eletronicly inclined but i'm a Draftmans/Designer/Bass Player/Bass Fisherman and me and wires do not get along and when i try to figure wires out my brain fries! I depend on club members for advice and i now have some more stupid questions!*#! I am in the process of putting myself together another bi amp bass rig. I have currently discussed this with club members and have decided I definetly want a SF2 pre amp. I have already desided to get a QSC amp because i have used them in past with no problems. While researcing QSC i found the following specs: Two ways to get PLX2 performance The "02" models (PLX1802, PLX2502, PLX3102 and PLX3602) are the right choice for users who need to drive up to four loudspeakers from each amplifier channel (2 ohm loading), or when extremely high power bridge mono operation is required. These models feature built-in subwoofer processing, filter switches, and front panel indications of bridge mono status. The compact "04" models (PLX1104, PLX1804) bring the same performance and technology, plus even greater value, to applications that don't require bridged or 2 ohm operation. Designed to power one or two speakers from each amplifier channel (4 ohm minimum loading), these models offer a simplified feature set while retaining genuine, uncompromised PLX performance and technology. Weighing just 13 pounds (5.9 kg) these "plug-and-play" amplifiers are perfect for ultra-portable rigs, as well as reference-quality playback. So now i still do not understand the difference between the 02 & 04. Would i want to use for example a 2402 or 2404 model? Thanks Steve | ||
| dfung60
Senior Member Username: dfung60 Post Number: 470 Registered: 5-2002 |
Without being specifically familiar with QCS stuff, the "02" models are more conservatively designed and intended to be more reliable. The "04" models are lighter and less expensive. When you increase the power output of an amp, it will draw more electrical current from it's power supply and it will dissipate more heat. You strain the amps much harder when you have a low impedance load, which usually comes from multiple speakers. When you see descriptions of the amps like these, it implies that the power supply and cooling of the 02 models is superior. If you're not playing super loud, then the 04 might work out fine. If you're driving the amp hard, then maybe the 02 is better. One difference that I noticed on the spec page at QSC is that it looks like when the 02 is being overloaded it goes to a reduced power state before shutting down the output (this lets the amp cool down). The 04 looks like it will probably shut down entirely when overloaded, then stay off until the amp has cooled sufficiently. David Fung | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 836 Registered: 5-2002 |
I used to use a PLX2402 and while it was a big upgrade from my previous Mackie FR1400, it was ultimately disappointing. The final straw was when I put it in my home studio, swapping it out for a McIntosh 2105, thinking that the newer technology and higher power would provide increased fidelity. How wrong I was. It sounded really terrible in that context, very 2 dimensional and sort of cardboardy. Since then I've used a Crest CA9 and then very much more recently (actually, since yesterday) a Crown XTI4000. Both provide an obviously better bass tone than I got from the QSC. The QSC got loud, but it never had the punch that I thought it should have had. I've had people tell me I'm out to lunch on this, but I would seriously listen to and compare other amps before you make a final decision. Best bass power amps I've played through: 1. McIntosh 2105, the downside is a lack of power with reasonably sized cabinets. It weighs a ton. 2. Crest 7001 3. Crest 5001 4. Crest CA9, the downside of all three is that they weigh a ton! I'm pretty happy with the Crown after last night's gig. I think it's a good compromise between weight and tone. It's definitely punchier and deeper than my old PLX. I'm still not sold on the DSP thing, but it's bypassable. | ||
| charles_holmes
Intermediate Member Username: charles_holmes Post Number: 103 Registered: 3-2009 |
I can't really compare anything to my QSC 2450 since I have not taken the time to do so. I would really like to hear the Crown XTI40000 though. My 2450's have provided me lots of power and clarity, but I have never used it in a studio setting so I can't comment on the aspect of fidelity/power/clarity.In addition I have never owned the QSC PLX series to compare and contrast either. But it (2450) really works for me as it did for Stanley, but I understand that Stan has forged a deal with Ampeg?.Please correct me if im wrong. I just know that my QSC 2450's really satisfy my aural pallette!! So my advice is to go listen to the power amps you are considering along with whatever you are using (cabinets/bass) and decide for yourself..go with your instincts and good luck!!!! | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1592 Registered: 9-2002 |
I've never been much good at hearing the difference in power amps, though I'm sure there is some. I'd think the first two questions I'd ask are 1) So . . . are you just gonna run two cabs or four? 2) How much weight are you willing to drag around? Power amps these days range from balsa wood weight all the way up to MacIntosh, which can weigh more than a Smart car. There's a big diff between packing 1) say, a single 15 cab and a single 10/12/210 and a rack bag, versus . . . . 2) A pair of 18's, several 210's, and a flight case rack. Then, I'd feel better pointing you in a direction. J o e y | ||
| thumbsup
Intermediate Member Username: thumbsup Post Number: 172 Registered: 7-2008 |
Joey.... Here are the cabs I currently have: 2 single Sound Tec 18s 1 single Dietz 2-15 1 single Mesa 1-15 2 single Mesa 4-10s I plan on bi amping a single Mesa 15 cab and a single Mesa 4-10 cab. Alternate rig would be bi amping a single Dietz 2-15 cab and a single Mesa 4 - 10 cab. I have in past mostly used a single mono amp with a single Mesa 4-10 cab with the cab raised which worked well in most venues I played including small outdoor gigs. Since I intend to start playing more I like the abilities of bi amping. Just a little more control of the balance. I have never used the 18s. Pose I could use a single for the low end? The Sound Tec cabs are way lighter the the Mesa or Diets cabs. I use both my 5 string & 6 string Alembic and the low B and high C get hit in almost all tunes. Steve | ||
| charles_holmes
Intermediate Member Username: charles_holmes Post Number: 104 Registered: 3-2009 |
Hey Steve, To give you an Idea of what I use which sounds similar to the amount of cabinets you have at your disposal.... Go to "Showcase" then to "Distillate" Then "Chalie's Distillate"..then Scroll to the end to view my "newly updated rig" Maybe that will help you too, because I usually use 4 cabinets on my gigs (two:18's & two:2x10's). I use two QSC 2450's (one for the 18's and one for the two 2x10's) and two F1X's (one for treble and one for bass). | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1594 Registered: 9-2002 |
After a quick trip through the QSC website page for PLX's, the -02 amps are passing more current (as many as 4 cabs with a total impedance of 2 ohms) plus built-in 'hard' 100hz subwoofer crossover, defeatable limiters, subsonic (below 33hz) hard filter. Plus they are full rack depth and obviously heavier and more expensive. The -04's delete the filters, limiter, and will load down to 4 ohms total per side, and evidently they are suggesting no more than two cabinets to get to that 4 ohms, so it's passing less current. My next three questions would be: 1) What's the impedance (ohm rating) of the cabinets you listed above? The answer to this alone may answer your question. And, WHICH Mesa 410's and single 15? 2) Where is your crossover? The SF-2 can function as a preamp, but there are better choices (F1-X ! !), then running the SF-2 through effects loop or inline. The SuperFilter is amazing, but it contains no crossover, so you CAN'T biamp thru it alone. 3) Why not use a power amp with the Mesa 410s running one to each channel? An f1x/sf2/QSC rig run like that would be PLENTY clean and loud without hassling with biamping, and you could use the less expensive -04 amps to boot. J o e y | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1595 Registered: 9-2002 |
PS: I forgot to agree with David Fung, so: I agree. The 02's are heavier duty, never a bad thing. And, after living with several biamp rigs, I am NO fan of biamping with bass guitar cabinets, and this is why: In professional touring sound reinforcement, people like EAW or Meyer or JBL design the massive 3- and 4-way systems to work as a whole system. You don't see them mixing and matching cabinets at a whim. All of the cabinets you list above (and this could be said of virtually anybody's bass cabs with a few exceptions) are all designed as full range, stand alone cabinets. So they don't tend to function well as a biamp rig. The available crossovers are generic, trying to work as well as they can with whatever they're presented with (and I'm sure the f1x would work better than most, considering the ears that designed it). You're suggesting using some single 18 subs from club PA duty (the SoundTecs) or some 15 cabs that were designed as full range bins. You might get lucky, or it may sound just fine to you, but it really is sonic roulette. One of the few dedicated sub systems I CAN think of for bass guitar are the Bag End ELF rigs (no longer called ELF, but it's too late to remember their new name), but these are VERY specialist rigs, but they certainly work well. Enough rambling . . . . J o e y | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 846 Registered: 5-2002 |
Joey, you aren't rambling. I agree with you completely. it's very important to have a system that is designed from top to bottom. I'd love to hear Chalie's rig. I think Bag End does a great job of integrating their systems. I've messed with mismatched rigs for quite some time and sometimes I get lucky but in most cases it never quite matches up to what I expect. These days I'm very happy using the fEARful 15/6/1 cab from Talkbass. It's finally dissuaded me from feeling like I need to biamp. Some people do biamp them but they also sound great full range (the crossover is much more like an extremely heavy duty hifi crossover than a typical bass cabinet). But at the end of the day, Chalie's advice is the best, listen and decide for yourself! | ||
| thumbsup
Intermediate Member Username: thumbsup Post Number: 175 Registered: 7-2008 |
Hum...I mis spoke (wrote) my original post. I had decided to use the F1-X not the SF-2 because of the cross over for bi amping. However after reviewing the comments I am reconsidering. I believe I like the ideal of running a seperate channel to each cab. Although I only have one 4-10 cab available because I am using the other 4-10 for my Yamaha EX5 Keys. I can use the 1-15 as an alternate though (right) I will check impedance on both cabs and get back to you. So if I do the above..I actually would not have to use a F1-X and could use an F2-B instead(right)? Charles would probably sell me his F2-B for a couple hundred  Steve (Message edited by thumbsup on January 18, 2011) (Message edited by thumbsup on January 18, 2011) | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1598 Registered: 9-2002 |
Right, the f2b is a stereo (or dual channel) preamp. The f1x replaces one channel with a crossover. I'd use the single 15 for the keys, and run a matched set of the 410s, one to each channel of the QSC, but that's me. I like eliminating all the variables I can. Best of Luck, J o e y | ||
| 5sicks
New Username: 5sicks Post Number: 9 Registered: 8-2010 |
Unless you are playing a BIG stage or do not have a FOH sub & top system to go thru, all you need is one full-range source. The single source design is the clearest, most accurate and simplest solution. Using more than one cab will present an acoustic nastiness called "comb filtering" where the pulses from one cab intersect and distort with the interaction of the pulses from the other cab. Very precise, steep (24db or more) crossover devices (read Expensive) can mitigate this phenomenon but why go thru all the heartburn when a single full-range cab can give you all the clarity you crave. I use a Ciare 800 watt 15" with a Sound Pipe HF compression driver in a Geoffrey cab of my own design. I use a EPX 3000 amp and one of several preamps. I play a "poor man's Alembic" with active Bartolinis and my rig plays loud enough to keep ahead of a Marshall half-stack and a Line-6 Bogner tube combo for guitars. My sound coming out of my speaker is exactly what I put in. The Eminence drivers used in most 1-15" and 4-10" cabs just don't have the bandwidth or SPL to reproduce low frequencies at high volume levels intelligibly, so we think more cabs is the answer when really all more cabs do is confuse the sound waves and create distortion. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 850 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thomas, there is a lot of truth in what you say. This is one of the concepts behind the fEARful cabinet. The way the drivers are aligned and crossed over is driven by their dispersion characteristics so that the off axis sound is very consistent and is as close to a point source as possible. When doubling up the cabinets, it's designed so that the mids and highs couple together to reduce comb filtering. I've only used one so far, but I'm sold on this concept. I will say that it's not worth condemning the whole Eminence line. The 3015LF that this cabinet uses has great abilities in xmax and power handling as well as linearity in its desired frequency range. However, you are correct in that drivers of this ability are rarely used in stock cabinets and Eminence makes a lot of drivers where the cost benefit ratio leans more to the cost side. | ||
| charles_holmes
Intermediate Member Username: charles_holmes Post Number: 107 Registered: 3-2009 |
I sold my SF a few months ago..sorry | ||
| thumbsup
Intermediate Member Username: thumbsup Post Number: 178 Registered: 7-2008 |
Hi Charles Oh I though you had a F2-B still for sale! I only speak & understand english.Thomas & Edwin lost me a while back! Actually this is very interesting & educational. So Thomas ...what are your views on Joeys idea of running a matched set of 4-10s run to each side of a QSC or similar amp? Steve | ||
| thumbsup
Intermediate Member Username: thumbsup Post Number: 179 Registered: 7-2008 |
Oh Thomas.... Don't really play any big stages except when I (band) may ocasionaly open at local expo center/fair that seats 5000 up. And thats maybe once a year. I do play quite a few outdoor gigs. Steve | ||
| charles_holmes
Intermediate Member Username: charles_holmes Post Number: 108 Registered: 3-2009 |
You said that you wanted a F1X not my F2B. I still have the F2B and not the SF2 (superfilter) | ||
| thumbsup
Advanced Member Username: thumbsup Post Number: 201 Registered: 7-2008 |
Hey Charles, You'ld have to read the whole thread. e mail sent! Steve | ||
| 5sicks
New Username: 5sicks Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2010 |
Sorry it's taken me this long to reply Thumbsup. To answer your ? you have to decide what is more desirable for you: having wicked loud stage volume that has the potential for distortion and blowing the sound right past you and out to the audience where it will be confused with FOH sound and cause even more distortion and unevenness(2 cabs) or using a single source full range cab that will handle the power necessary to reproduce the lows cleanly and aim it across the stage so all your mates can hear it without it having to be so loud and the audience can enjoy an un-cluttered FOH bass with your sound guy in full control. I have seen on some other threads some folks noticed that at some live events with big-time players and probably high end FOH systems that the bass was boomy, woofy or too loud. I have experienced this too altho I don't attend many concerts anymore. I really believe that the phenomenon I'm talking about is to blame for this: too much stage volume (which the sound tech can't control) and then the dreaded "comb filtering" happening as the stage sound waves are slightly behind the FOH waves and so cause partial calcellation and distortion. The sound guy then turns up the front bass in an effort to drown out the stage bass but all that is accomplished is a worsening effect and crappy uneven bass. One of the biggest problems with live presentations is stage volume. In the old days we didn't have huge front systems and none of the instruments were mic'd or signaled out. We just cranked up the amps and let 'er whistle. That mentality has carried over to musicians today when we do have front systems that should be almost completely discreet from the stage. The techs who are knowledgeable all agree to turn the stage down and let them do their job. | ||
| thumbsup
Advanced Member Username: thumbsup Post Number: 231 Registered: 7-2008 |
Well Thomas, That certainly makes since! Thinks I'll just run the F2B & amp thru my 4-10 Thanks Steve | ||
| peoplechipper
Advanced Member Username: peoplechipper Post Number: 237 Registered: 2-2009 |
Wow, you guys put together rigs bigger than any club I've ever played at, never gotten my Acoustic 370 over 2.5 anywhere I've ever played... Thomas makes a valid point about stage volume vs. front of house, but my personal experience has been that the monitors are either partially blown or an underpowered afterthought so you either have to be so practiced that you can play deaf to your bandmates or you crank it up on stage to hear everyone...I personally have had perfect monitors ONCE and I loved it; despite the potential for meltdown(hangovers,drink and drug overindulgences)we had one of our best gigs of the whole time I was in that band...so I guess if you go to a place with good sound and a good soundman, tip well and send everyone there as that is sadly not common...Tony. | ||
| 5sicks
Junior Username: 5sicks Post Number: 11 Registered: 8-2010 |
If we are serious about our music (hopefully all here are), we have to blow the dust of our wallets and invest in gear that is appropriate to what and where we play. That said it doesn't mean that the biggest, most expensive , boutique name equipment is always the way to go. A matched, small, lightweight rig is possible and adequate for most venues. The modern lightweight class D amps have gobs of clean power and the variety of pre-amps is boggling. The weakest point of any sound reproduction system is the input device (mic, pick-up) and the speaker. All of these devices are grouped together as transducers and they are the only types of devices that convert audible energy to electrical signals and vice-versa. Therefore we need to pay the closest attention to these parts. Alembic and others have figured out how to reproduce the input part... there is always room for improvement but that is pretty much up to science beyond our control. So what we can do is choose from the myriad speaker configurations available (and there are as many theories as assholes here too). So the best we can do is listen to as much and as many rigs as possible and enlist the ears of our friends to guide us to that perfectly unattainable sound. Stage monitors are a good place to invest in quality as these are our common denominator--just keep the drums and bass out of the monitor mix. | ||
| thumbsup
Advanced Member Username: thumbsup Post Number: 233 Registered: 7-2008 |
The best gigs I've played is when the stage volume is under control...and kept under contol by ALL the muscians on stage.... I wish there was a stomp box that would turn (those) guitar players down when they think "I have to play at this volume or I can't get into it" LOL Next thing you know every one is turning up just to hear themselves and it's a free for all! (That was sometime ago and most are quite a bit more professional now. I stopped playing that game long ago) (Message edited by thumbsup on February 09, 2011) | ||
| mike1762
Senior Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 752 Registered: 1-2008 |
My newest "rig" consist of: 1) Boss ME-50B 2) Sans Amp Bass Driver DI ... that's it!!! The drummer uses an electronic kit and the KB is also running direct. I'm trying to talk the guitarist into using a POD and going direct as well. That will be much less gear to haul around and will give us TOTAL control over the mix. | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 875 Registered: 10-2006 |
With 2 exceptions, every band I ever mixed, I mixed to the bass player's stage volume (and constsntly told them to turn down). The exceptions? The guitarist who'd dime his 100w Marshall in a 30-seat room ("I'm just trying to get a sound, man") and the most recent one, who had no backline; PODs for guitars & bass, DI for keys. I mixed to the hardest hitting drummer I've ever known. I did jokingly suggest an electronic kit, and got a really dirty look for my trouble. But in general, yes, everybody turn down! You'll sound better out front, I promise. And if "your sound" is an amp driven into insanity (see Marshall above) - get a smaller amp! As Thomas points out, the Grateful Dead & Alembic invented modern sound reinforcement 40 years ago; use it to your advantage. Peter | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1614 Registered: 5-2009 |
Mike , what electronic drum kit is being used ? have you checked out the new V- Drum Roland line? I was considering getting the TD-4SX. I have heard good things about the Sans Amp Bass Driver DI as well. I like the concept of the way you are going about control; handy in a" Dinner Venue". | ||
| jbabies
New Username: jbabies Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2010 |
I play at a lot of fairly large rooms (300-500 people) and have to say that you need headroom, horsepower and clarity to get a great sound live. Both guitarists in my band use 100w tube half stacks and the drums are most often filled through a 2x15" and horn cab. I have found that most bass gear sounds pretty honky and distorted even with the best brands. The weakest link in most bass cabs is the horn driver, I have consistently replaced the horn drivers in my cabinets first with JBL2402's and now with Beyma CP22 supertweeters. This makes an incredible difference to the audability of my sound onstage. I have been using the Crown XTi4000 power amp for about two years now and recommend it highly. It is only and 20lbs and will deliver over 3000watts RMS bridged mono @4 Ohms or 1600watts a side into 2. I use mine at 4 Ohms a side (1200watts) into 2x4 Ohms cabinets. I am using a 6x10 loaded with Eminence Delta 10's (2400w RMS) with a 2x10 loaded with kappa 10's (1000w RMS). However, if you just chuck your preamp in front of an XTi you will only get a fraction of what this amp can deliver. You absolutely MUST download the HiQnet System Software (free from Crown) and use the USB connection to program your own custom presets. The Xti has 6 bands of fully parametric EQ with high and low pass filters, a fully configurable stereo crossover, inbuilt limiters and a host of other features which can be saved to one of 15 user presets. Every time I have read criticisms of the XTi's in forums it is by users who have not availed themselves of the advanced features this amp supports. I have a preset just for the 6x10" in bridged mono mode and another two presets for Bi amp (big Stage),and full range (smaller stage) configurations with both cabinets. http://www.crownaudio.com/amp_htm/xti.htm#specs | ||
| mike1762
Senior Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 753 Registered: 1-2008 |
The drummer's electronic kit is the latest version of the Yamaha DTXtremes. I also have an older incarnation of them that I use when recording. I know most drummer's hate the whole concept of electronic drums, but they sound REALLY good. We have a set of full range cabinets and a sub for the FOH and a smaller set of full range cabs for sidefills/monitors... no need for personal monitors. | ||
| jon_jackson
Member Username: jon_jackson Post Number: 63 Registered: 12-2008 |
I have a Crown XTi4000 to run two JBL SRX718S subs. Using the HiQNet Band Manager software instead of System Architect. It's less robust than System Architect and is designed for easier/quicker setup in various venues. Very flexible in controlling the amp. The only issue I have is it (and System Architect) won't run on anything but a Windows product due to the underlying software frame. | ||
| jbabies
New Username: jbabies Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2010 |
I haven't downloaded Band Manager, it wasn't available when I started using System Architect. If I purchased the XTi today I would have downloaded Band Manager for sure, for use in configuring a single power amp System Architect is like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Having said that, I haven't had any issues with it,it works great and wasn't difficult to install or operate. I did however discover some really cool info on system diagnostics and controlling the inbuilt fans. To test fans and displays http://support.jands.com.au:8080/sd/AddSolution.sd?solID=2710. To control fans speeds and settings http://www.jands.com.au/support/product_support/archive_audio_technical/2010_audio_technical_materials/may/operating_the_cooling_fans_on_crown_xti,_cdi_andor_dsi_series | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1607 Registered: 9-2002 |
So now that we are ranging far afield in this thread, anybody out there own or ever test drive any of the ISP (Beta preamp + powered 2-way cabs) gear? Certainly looks interesting . . . J o e y |
