| Author | Message | ||
| alemboid
Intermediate Member Username: alemboid Post Number: 101 Registered: 5-2003 |
Hey friends, Have you ever noticed that guitar, keyboard, drum players can play any make or model and not be ridiculed for what they use? More New York bass players are complaining about the reaction they get when they pull out their Ken Smiths, Alembics, Roscoes, Laklands and others. This is as bad as telling someone that they are "less ideal" for having dark hair or skin, too short, or tall. Do we tell others what they should play? Isn't it about the player's ability and quality of tone? I feel this is a serious infringement on a very personal matter that other musicians fail to appreciate. Have you ever felt the heat for not playing a vintage Fender (for example)? Alemboid | ||
| rraymond
Intermediate Member Username: rraymond Post Number: 138 Registered: 6-2002 |
Amen brother! I was out playing in Memphis, TN in the early 70's. I can't recount all the times I caught crap from fellow musicians because I played a Rickenbacker instead of a plank - I mean a Fender. Now, I've got nothing against Fenders, I've owned a bunch and actually enjoyed them, but nobody is going to tell me what the heck brand of instrument to play. I will say this, out here in Portland, OR, my Rickenbacker has been met with enthusiasm, and my Alembics, too! I always thought that musicians were supposed to be more open minded than the Ford vs. Chevy, or tastes-great vs. less-filling crowds! Happy to be thumping an Alembic in Portland, Reid | ||
| alemboid
Intermediate Member Username: alemboid Post Number: 102 Registered: 5-2003 |
Hey Reid, Very interesting. I'm from Seattle, and one thing I noticed is no one questioned what bass I played there, whereas in the northeast, it's a different story. Hmmmmmm. When I was a horn player, I told my teacher (Bill Mitchell) I wanted to play bass, and he told me the bass to get was a Precision Bass, as it was "what bass players are playing". Well, many were then. Yet, it seems that attitude has stuck around in some areas around the country, despite advances made upon Leo Fender's 1950's technology. Alemboid | ||
| bigredbass
Advanced Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 310 Registered: 9-2002 |
My favorite way to put them in their place: "Gee, the last gig, the drummer had these Rosewood Sonors and all DW hardware . . . and he REALLY knew how to tune them!" "Did you roll those sticks before you bought 'em?" "You know, you really should think about a Boogie and a PRS . . . is your tuner's batteries going out? Try mine." "That Berklee guy I played with last week . . . oh, you DON'T read music? I haven't seen a DX7 in a long time!" You get the idea. J o e y | ||
| 4u2nv
Junior Username: 4u2nv Post Number: 26 Registered: 12-2003 |
I have this cheap old Fender P Bass, with really cheap pickups, and i have some several serious basses, but the musicians and crowd seems to like more the fender, they always say that it sound awsome...(i see deaf people, lol) Does anyone have a similar xperience? | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 588 Registered: 9-2003 |
As both a guitar player and a bass player, you get a far amount of ribbing from both camps. It just depends on what happens to be "in-style" at the moment. Back in the day, a guitar player had to have a Gibson or a Fender or you were made fun of. In the late '80's/very early '90's it was a Jackson. Now, everyone has a PRS. Bass was no different: "J" or "P"?. Rick's got a big shot in the arm of acceptance factor because of Chris Squire. I could go on...you get the point. Personally, I say screw 'em all, play what you want. As long as your tone fits the music you're playing, who gives a sh*t what you're playing it on? Further, after the initial shock of taking it out of the case wears off, does anybody really care what you're playing once they figure out you REALLY know how to play? Conversely, guys with all the top-shelf equipment that really DON'T know how to play impress you right up until the music starts, LOL! What's that line from the Ricky Nelson song..."you can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself"? | ||
| rraymond
Intermediate Member Username: rraymond Post Number: 140 Registered: 6-2002 |
A bit of nostalgia here: I bought a copy of Billy Cobham's "Spectrum" the other day and noticed that Lee Sklar is credited with playing Fender bass. The only other manufacturer specific credit goes to Jan Hammer for Moog synthesizer. | ||
| jacko
Junior Username: jacko Post Number: 31 Registered: 10-2002 |
Sometimes it can even be fellow bass players that cut our throats. i'm thinking in particular about carol kaye who hasn't anything good to say about any bass that isn't a 4 string jazz. talk about narrow minded, almost every interview I've read lately she's essentially been denouncing 5 and 6 string players just because she doesn't play more than 4. | ||
| dadabass2001
Advanced Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 262 Registered: 6-2002 |
In the 70s, I used to belong to the American Federation of Musicians, Dubuque chapter. I remember they had a membership directory for contacting sidemen for pick-up gigs around the area. The "listing by instruments" section ONLY had upright bass and Fender Bass. (LOL) I played a Guild Starfire. Mike | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 591 Registered: 9-2003 |
Stevie Ray ALWAYS introduced Tommy Shannon as being on "the Fender Bass", even if he was playing his custom non-Fender, LOL! Old habits die hard. Hell, I should talk: I had my Alembic Custom "Fender-cized" with the "J" activators and an Ash body, LOL! Old habits die hard, LOL! | ||
| pace
Member Username: pace Post Number: 59 Registered: 4-2004 |
This thread and the one about the soundman/$500 bass are hysterical. Personally Ive never gotten any flack for playing a cheap bass (Harmony/Kay) or an Alembic. Ive only had my Elan for a couple of months, so I could have it coming, LOL.... From my experiences, I've found that the most justified P-bass devotes are upright players with a minimalist philosophy in regards to what should come between the fingers and the ears. I tend to agree with them when it comes to their particular style. I guess anyone else is either brainwashed, jealous, or scared of change | ||
| keavin
Senior Member Username: keavin Post Number: 486 Registered: 12-2002 |
Thats just it some people are intimidated when you pull out your "Rollsroyce",they'd rather see you in your chevy.......#@*%!!,,EM | ||
| jacko
Junior Username: jacko Post Number: 32 Registered: 10-2002 |
kevin. I made a point of replacing the pickups etc on my 79 precision with rickenbacker pickups including the scratchplate. Sounds much nicer but still nowhere as nice as my epic. | ||
| kayo
Member Username: kayo Post Number: 69 Registered: 10-2002 |
This topic kind of lends itself to (in my mind) a parallel with the topics of religion and politics.... there are such passionate arguments about it on both sides of the fence. I actually consider myself fortunate - for not having such the narrow point of view that only one bass brand and/or one bass tone is the acceptable measure of what is THE bass. I know this cat from highscool (25 years now), and back then his thing was Rickenbackers, a-la-Geddy Lee. He was also a huge Yes fan and the Ricko sound was IT. In the meantime I was into Larry Graham, Stanley Clarke, P-Funk - etc.... Now he is into Marcus Miller - and I am still into the same old thing (with a few added others, including Miller)... at the end of the day.... I appreciate the unique signature tones that different instruments contribute to the musical fabric - however, to me, a different bass tone is not really any different than say a synth bass, a rickenbacker, a fender, or a tobias.... just different colors in the musical palette.... My friend on the other hand thinks that Marcus' Fender tone is THE tone and that all others are a joke - and he'll tell you right to your face. As a matter of fact, he goes significantly out of his way to do everythhing that Marcus does.... which I find quite amusing - there's only one Marcus and though I think Miller is one of the most gifted bass players I have come across - I would not want my sound to be so like his that if anyone heard me they would think I am him - if anything - I would want to have a sound that is so unique and distinct that it can only be associated with me. | ||
| pookeymp
Intermediate Member Username: pookeymp Post Number: 162 Registered: 7-2002 |
A producer at a studio in NY where I do most of my session work was always amazed at the tone that came out of my Mark King. He often told me of all the other basses that came thru his studio (including Fenders)...he thought that the tone of mine was one of the the best he had heard. At the end of one session, he asked me to come in the next week to lay some bass tracks for a personal project of his. He just finished complimenting my tone only minutes before, and in the next breath asked me "could I bring a Jazz bass in for his session next week." Well, I stood there in a foggy daze for a few moments, before I could mumble the words, "Ok...I'll see what I can do." Mikey | ||
| ox_junior
Intermediate Member Username: ox_junior Post Number: 177 Registered: 3-2004 |
A funny story: Lee Sklar had what he called a "producer switch" installed on his favorite recording bass, a Yamaha. When the producer gave their usual drivel: "I'm looking for more texture", "I want it to be more like a Fender", "I want the bass part to sound more purple" or some other nonsense, Lee would flip this switch, which was nothing but a dummy toggle, and ask "how's that?". After this, without exception, the producer would say that the difference was "exactly what he was looking for!". Try that next time! Flip one of your Q-switches and say "Oh, this switch makes it sound more like a Fender!" By the way, the producer issue is somewhat true here in LA as well. They are just used to the way Fenders sound in a track. And they do sound good sometimes. But not unique, like an Alembic. Mike | ||
| ox_junior
Intermediate Member Username: ox_junior Post Number: 178 Registered: 3-2004 |
Oh, and I can corroborate the story about the instrument being known as the "Fender Bass" - I joined the Musician's Union in Detroit in the mid-80's. When I joined, I was given a booklet with all the local's members names in it, categorized by their instrument and sometimes a photo. There were three categories for bassists: Bass Viola (uprights, of course), Electric Bass (which was how I listed myself and showed a lot of young players), and the third category was "Fender Bass", which showed consistently only players in their 50's or 60's. I asked the union about this and they said "For so many years, Fender was the only game in town for electric bass, so 'Fender Bass' became the generic term for the instrument (much like "Kleenex" or "Xerox"), and the term stuck through the ages". A lot of the old-timers, no matter what kind of bass you have, still refer to the instrument by habit (and quite lovingly, I might add) as a "Fender Bass". No harm, no foul. I think it's a charming throwback. Mike | ||
| stoney
Advanced Member Username: stoney Post Number: 330 Registered: 7-2002 |
Gee, and I thought that by switching to a darker short scale bass, no one would notice....yea, right. I went to a jam session a while back and pulled out my Brown Bass. The guy currently playing bass came over on break and asked "watcha playin' thar, boy? " (Dude, I'm gonna be 50 this year ok???but thanks for the compliment) It's an Alembic (the Brown Bass has no "Alembic" script...not that he'd be able to read it anyway) Oh,,,,yea an..'Olym....." NEVER-MIND. "Hey, mind if I take a look at it?" Sure, knock yourself out...(please) "OH YEA,....I see yer problem right now...Yer neck is warped...should be straight as an arrow.....just like my COURT!!!! Guitarist at a gig..."Can you make that sound like a Fender".... ...."Sure, I can even get it to sound like the whole car if you like!" Another guitarist playing a Telecaster......"Hey man can you get more a Fender sound outta that?"....."Sure, can you?" Oh yea, and one more thing. If you think you get comments when you take your Alembic out, try taking an Ashbory with you next time!!! | ||
| pookeymp
Intermediate Member Username: pookeymp Post Number: 165 Registered: 7-2002 |
Quote: Guitarist at a gig..."Can you make that sound like a Fender".... ...."Sure, I can even get it to sound like the whole car if you like!" I Love It!!! I gotta use that next time. Mikey/ | ||
| wideload
Member Username: wideload Post Number: 57 Registered: 6-2003 |
I'm so glad i live in my insular little world and have never had any of this nonsense. I've been with the same group since '77 (save a 3 year married/out of town stint) and we carry our own sound man. The only problem I've had is zinging the acoustic guitarist with a low D if he gets too close to my rig (serves him right!). My goal is to NOT sound like Fender! Larry | ||
| hollis
Senior Member Username: hollis Post Number: 412 Registered: 11-2003 |
I'm pretty sure that it's not just bass players that have this problem. The other night I went to a blues jam with my Skylark, and upon seeing the Alembic the sound man snided "hey man, we play BLUES here". I said, "oh damn, this guitar doesn't know how to play BLUES, if I had know that BLUES was going to be played at a BLUES jam, I'd have brought one of my guitars that knows how to play BLUES".... After playing that night, all the sound guy could say was, "Man! I didn't know Olympics could play blues like that!" I responded, "Amazing what a guitar can learn when it's right next to a Fender Strat!" Go figure....... | ||
| rraymond
Intermediate Member Username: rraymond Post Number: 142 Registered: 6-2002 |
One of the bands I play in went out for an audition a couple of weeks ago. We scored a gig and were offered New Years Eve, also. We play a bunch of old Steely Dan and Traffic, basically a collection of R&B and jazz flavored rock tunes, Classy-rock, if you will. At the end of the evening, one of the hangers-on was heard to say, "Your guitar player sure makes a case for the Telecaster not being just for country." I reckon! And what about those other non-trad Tele players, Roy Buchanan and Steve Morse!? It's funny how some instruments become so associated with certain idioms. I used to love Chris Brubeck playing jazz on a Rickenbacker; didn't he know it was a prog-rock bass? | ||
| ajdover
Intermediate Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 131 Registered: 11-2003 |
I've had experiences where what's already been described occurred, and also indifferent responses as well. My guess is some people just like what they're used to, and anything new will be viewed as suspect. The expense of an Alembic (or other "high end" instrument) precludes most players from acquiring one (unless they're independently wealthy, a very successful professional, or save for years), so most guys/gals buy what they can afford and like and use what they have. In my case, I own two Alembics, two Gibsons, two Fenders, a Rickenbacker, a Musicman, a Pedulla, and an Ovation Acoustic Bass. Every time I've played my Alembics, the reaction has always been positive. I've also received compliments on my other basses too, so I guess reactions run the gamut. However, where I live now, most other musicians (mostly blues guitarists and drummers) don't want the bass player to stand out - they want him/her in the background, not out front or even in the middle. The electronics and tonal variations possible with an Alembic guarantee that an Alembic owner will be heard (not to mention seen!). It's sometimes frustrating at times that the only people who appreciate my Alembics are other bass players. For my part, I'll continue to use my Alembics. I'm not a professional musician, and I don't need the money potential gigs might provide to survive. In other words, I don't have to accede to the wishes of other musicians if I choose not to - to each his own and all that. Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty flexible when it comes to my sound, and will make changes for the good of the group if that's what's needed. But if the other guys in the band don't like the Alembic sound(s), and I want to use my Alembics, I always have the option of moving on. I don't tell them what to play. They won't tell me either. Besides, there's always another band/musician/group out there looking for a bass player. I've spent too much money on my Alembics to leave them in the case just because someone else's idea of a bass sound is a one-trick pony Fender Precision plugged into an SVT. Besides, as the saying goes, if you can afford a Cadillac, why not drive one? Anyway, my two cents, Alan | ||
| bracheen
Senior Member Username: bracheen Post Number: 608 Registered: 11-2003 |
Reid, funny thing about the sterotypes you mention. I was listening to a jazz band last night. The bass player had a Fodora which surprised me. Jacksonville is pretty much a Fender or MM town. Because I was paying attention he assumed I was a musician and started a conversation during his break. I mentioned that I played an Alembic which got me an invitation to sit in. The comment was "if you play Alembic you must play jazz". Sam | ||
| rogertvr
Advanced Member Username: rogertvr Post Number: 264 Registered: 1-2003 |
I'm with Alan - bring it on! Rog | ||
| lbpesq
Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 72 Registered: 7-2004 |
Just so you guys don't think that all guitarists want bass players in the background. I play in a 5 piece band (2 guitars, bass, drums, and a female singer). We play an eclectic mix of originals and covers from the last 40 years of R 'n R with a very apparent nod to the Dead (style, not necessarily songs, though we have been working on Bird Song - big fun). My bass player, with whom I have played in various situations for about 20 years, has always played a Gibson EB through a Traynor. I have long silently wished for him to get an Alembic so that he could be more present in the band sound. He recently found out that he is inheriting some $ and has decided to get a new bass. He's talking about a Rickenbacker, but I made him promise to let me take him up to Alembic and try some out before any purchase is made. If he does decide on the Rick, I'm going to try to at least talk him into an SF-2. I WANT TO HEAR THE BASS IN THE BAND. What would the Dead be without Phil? The Airplane without Jack? The Who without John? (Of course, they were never really the Who to me without Keith and John together). So don't disparage all of us guitar players. Some of us are more interested in the overall sound than who gets the groupies. (Besides, my wife won't let me have any anyway). By the way: What do you call a guitar player who breaks up with his girlfriend? Homeless. Bill, the guitar one. (Message edited by lbpesq on October 17, 2004) | ||
| ajdover
Intermediate Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 132 Registered: 11-2003 |
Bill (and all), Didn't mean to imply that I'm painting all guitarists with the same brush - I'm not. You'll note that I prefaced my comments with the phrase "where I live now." I lived in the DC area until recently, and most players there that I encountered were more open to different kinds of bass sounds. As I said, where I'm living now, I might as well go back to the '60's when it comes to some of the musicians there. Hey, that's what they're into, and that's fine. However, that doesn't mean I have to abide by it or go along with it. It does mean that I won't get as many opportunities to play with a group, but that's my choice and that's OK. I just can't see playing a Fender Precision just so I can have the "privilege" of playing I-IV-V patterns all night long. It just isn't for me. I'd rather wait and/or seek out those whose styles and preferences are closer to my own. Avoids a lot of problems later on, I think. Bill: Tell your bass player that if he's thinking of a Rick, he must get an SF-2. I own a '76 4001, and I can tell you that the SF-2 does wonders for it. For that matter, an SF-2 does wonders for just about everything. If he has any questions about a Rick, SF-2, or Alembic (I own two - a Spyder and a Europa), pass my email along to him and I'll provide some info to him if he so desires. Regards, Alan | ||
| rraymond
Intermediate Member Username: rraymond Post Number: 150 Registered: 6-2002 |
Alan, your comments about the Rick and SF-2 are of interest to me. I've still got my old 73 Rick, dings, gouges, bent tuning key and all, and I love that old bird. Problem is, I think it sounds like crap through modern amplification. It sounds brittle in the high end, there's no bottom to speak of and the mids are well, missing! It used to sound mind blowing through Ampeg tube amps, it was everything I could want from a Rick. Clearly what I'd like the SF-2 to do is: smooth the high end considerably, fatten the bottom end, and give it some mid range punch. Is that possible? Thanks for your comments, especially if it means I get to use the old bird again! Reid | ||
| ajdover
Intermediate Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 133 Registered: 11-2003 |
Reid, Get an SF-2 and you won't be sorry. It will give your Rick the sound you're looking for. The bottom will be thick, the mids will be punchy, and the highs crisp without being harsh. I run my SF-2 via an Ampeg SVT-IV Pro with Ampeg BXT series cabinets (4X10 and 1X15), which is biamped. The SF-2 is in stereo mode, and it works well for me. You will find that you will get that great growl and edge that the Rick is known for, but little of the "brittleness" you speak of. When I plugged mine in for the first time, you would have thought that Chris Squire and Geddy Lee were in the room (not from my playing, but from the tone!). I cannot recommend one more strongly. Get an SF-2 and the old bird will fly (sing?) again. Regards, Alan | ||
| corny
New Username: corny Post Number: 5 Registered: 9-2004 |
About the prejudice thing: You guys should consider yourselves lucky that you are being judged by people who at least know what a Fender bass is. My wife for instance liked my Coco-Bolo Alembic better than my Jazz-Bass because "it matched the colors of the living room better" (seriously). Sigh! Cor. |
