| Author | Message | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4334 Registered: 6-2002 |
Tomorrow night I have a concert with my band at a local music college and it is being fully tracked in pro-tools and a 5 camera video shoot. My plan is to have it mixed properly into a live album. We are doing a Grover Washington Jr set in commemoration of 15 yrs since he passed away so if you know the music it's jazz funk. I'm looking for advice about how to organise my gear to get the best sound on: (a) on stage (b) on the recording The gear I have at my disposal consists of. 2 x F1-x's 1 x SF-2 QSC PLX 2402 Stereo Power amp 1 x 15 Mesa boogie powerhouse cab 4 x 10 Mesa boogie powerhouse cab 2 x 10 Mesa boogie powerhouse cab I also have a Roland JC 120 that I could use via the high pass output on one or both F1-x's My logical head says keep it simple use my regular mono setup and use two cabs. On the other hand this is the best and most convenient opportunity to try out bi-amping my rig on stage but I just wanted to put it past you guys for some advice which may be that I should indeed, keep it simple. I'm all ears so fire away. | ||
| tbrannon
Senior Member Username: tbrannon Post Number: 1656 Registered: 11-2004 |
how much time do you have before the show to setup and then fiddle with things to get them the way you want? I'd be tempted to just run your standard setup so you can focus on playing, rather than worrying about how things might sound in an unfamiliar setup. Are you taking the Series bass to the show? | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4335 Registered: 6-2002 |
I probably have just under 2 hours allocated for our soundcheck so I could fiddle about for a bit and see how it feels. As for the bass yes it will be both series I & II basses so I can get a chance to hear them both in a good environment. Most gigs I do are reggae so I don't really hear the full spectrum of the basses that often on a gig so I want to make the most of this opportunity. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3794 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hello , Jazzy How many channels is the recording engineering intending to use in the live recording ? IS this a live or studio engagement ? There are many variables to consider on the stage sound, such as the instrumentation of the ensemble and the frequency balance and SPL's of the live performance and bleed over from the various microphones on stage. From your description it seems like there will be wind instruments as well and that makes the bleed over into the wind instrument mics even more of a pressing issue from a standpoint of a recording engineer . If I were the Engineer on your gig I would try to get a Stereo image first and then strive for articulate instrument clarity in the panorama and that requires a controlled and baffled stage setup. I like to use a DECCA TREE mic configuration over head for a stereo image build. NEXT I use soloist mics and mix them in to taste . If you are using an Alembic Series I/II I have heard better results running in STEREO Rather then a BI -AMP configuration ! That way you can manipulate the response characteristics of either the bridge or neck pickup with the SF-2 to compliment the all over spectral needs of the ensemble . IF the Engineer is NICE he will allow for a DUAL direct feed from your preamps and then let him decide what to do with it and then focus on your playing and concentration on your playing . Congratulations on landing this gig my friend ! Wolf | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3795 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hello Jazzy , In my first paragraph in the first sentence , I asked ; "IS this a live or studio engagement ?" BY live I should have ask , IS there an audience , as in LIVE PERFORMANCE . | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 5919 Registered: 7-2004 |
I'm with Toby. I'd stick to a set up I am familiar and comfortable with. I know when I've tried something radically new at a gig or jam, I usually wind up fighting my equipment rather than being in the flow. At minimum, I'd want a few hours by myself messing around with the set up and dialing it in before playing with others. As Wolf notes, there are lots of variables that need to be considered. For myself, thinking about all this stuff would likely adversely affect both my playing and, ultimately, my enjoyment of the gig. Bill, tgo | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3796 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hello Jazzy , In my first paragraph in the first sentence , I asked ; "IS this a live or studio engagement ?" BY live I should have ask , IS there an audience , as in LIVE PERFORMANCE . | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3797 Registered: 5-2009 |
( double post control) Jazzy , I hope all goes to your satisfaction of the gig . | ||
| stephenr
Junior Username: stephenr Post Number: 18 Registered: 9-2014 |
I tend to like to keep things simple. The more transparent the equipment is the easier I find it to play well. I used to run a bi-amped rig back in the 80s but over time realized I liked running the cabinets full range better. A bi-amped rig also requires two mics mixed together properly if you want your stage sound represented in the mix along with a direct signal If you haven't worked with the engineer or sound crew previously it is also a bit of a gamble to complicate things. Along with keeping all the musicians happy on stage they will have a lot of other stuff to deal with. Whatever you decide, have a great gig. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 1871 Registered: 5-2002 |
I agree with Wolf. For recording purposes, running the bass in stereo affords more control than bi-amping. Bi-amping is all about working with issues in live reproduction which don't have much to do with recording, especially if you are going direct. All of the cabs you are using are good cabs, but they aren't exactly flat, so you'll be making adjustments that will make the stage sound sound better but may not be the best thing for the recorded signal. I've done all of the above many times and for years was a big believer in bi-amping. I still am for PA systems, but not so much for bass rigs (unless you can afford one like Phil Lesh or Mike Gordon, but those are PA systems). These days I run my bass in stereo whenever I can, for live and recording and it makes mixing very easy. Engineers seem to love it. | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 1808 Registered: 10-2006 |
Of course you should bi-amp! But not for the first time at a gig............ Peter (who really thinks you should add an 18" & tri-amp - but admits to being strange) | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3798 Registered: 5-2009 |
If you mic a Series I/II Alembic Bass processed in Stereo ; to obtain a Stage sound to your preference with your SF-2 , you can place your speakers in a standard column formation with only ONE Electrovoice RE-20 microphone placed in the correct location and angle of your stack with baffles to limit bass leakage to the other microphones .( it may never be used in the recorded mix and just recorded for the sake of having it if it is needed) For your Stereo DI is where the dual feed bass DI's can be implemented . Been there done that ____  . It all depends what the engineer is willing to do . It can really be a " Walk in the Park " and not really very complex . Many times all that gets used in 'print" is the DI anyway . It all depends . You probably need your stage sound anyway for the other players unless everyone is JUST using headphone monitors , THERE ARE , really many variables in techniques ! Your engineer will likely want his own direct box feed from his own direct box feeding directly off your Bass before ANY of your own equipment . Perhaps ___ . | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 1873 Registered: 5-2002 |
All this goes to show how much it pays to work with engineers who know you. At the Last Waltz show at the Fillmore right before Thanksgiving, the sound guy, an old friend, said that he brought up the bass DI and bass mic and started doing his usual bass tricks and things weren't really gelling. Then he said to himself "Oh right, this is Edwin's rig." and zeroed out the channel EQ and compression, brought up the DI fader, brought up the mic fader and was done. My DI is post everything (F2B and Lexicon). Oh yeah, that should be a double 18 for the triamp! | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3800 Registered: 5-2009 |
Edwin is right , everything is relative . (Yes , double 18's ___ one crossover @300HZ and the other @150HZ ____LOL !!!) QUAD AMPED _____ | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4336 Registered: 6-2002 |
Wow a lot to think of. Firstly let me try to clear up any ambiguities I had in my original posting. The event is an actual gig with an audience.. ( assuming anyone turns up). The Sound engineer is the head of department at the music college we are performing at and teaches in the actual venue so knows it intimately. He is also a professional freelance sound engineer covering everything from small venues to major music festivals etc.... He has also been the sound engineer for the reggae band I play with, Musical Youth, for the past 8 years so he is very familiar "now" with alembics and what I like in my sound. However where this differs is that this gig is going allow me to use the full bandwidth of the bass rather than mainly the bottom end which is the case with my reggae gigs. They have high quality gear there and he is going to do whatever he can with what they have available to get the best sound in the venue and on the recording. I guess what I'm trying to say in a long winded way is. This is the best opportunity i've had since having my series basses to actually hear their full range with the equipment I have, and on a gig where I'm playing baselines that allow me to explore more fully what the basses can offer. I want to be able to hear that on stage whilst not compromising what is going on the recording. He has already offered 4 channels just for bass with some thoughts regarding where the take the DI feed, from the bass or from the F1-x's and in addition putting a mic on both cabs if I'm running bi-amp. I'm confused as to it means to have the bass in stereo vs Bi-amping? For stereo do you mean having one pickup feeding the left FOH and one pickup feeding the right FOH? If that is the answer well we decided that would not be sensible as I switch pickups for some tracks and the volume on both is hardly ever equal which could leave holes in the balance across the sound field. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 1874 Registered: 5-2002 |
While the bass signal path is stereo, it's still mixed and panned mono at the FOH board. He just can get more deep into the tonal options of the DIs. Stereo doesn't have to mean panned left and right. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3801 Registered: 5-2009 |
Jazzy , in a BI -AMPed signal , the signal is divided into highs and lows that are separately amplified . AN Alembic Series I/II in Stereo ; bridge & neck pickups separately processed and /or amplified. I think that what Edwin writes would be an excellent way to do it ; "While the bass signal path is stereo, it's still mixed and panned mono at the FOH board. He just can get more deep into the tonal options of the DIs. Stereo doesn't have to mean panned left and right." You are in luck that the engineer is granting you such a large piece of "sonic real-estate ". | ||
| fmm
Senior Member Username: fmm Post Number: 406 Registered: 6-2002 |
On a gig this important, I wouldn't want to test anything major "in combat". | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 2287 Registered: 9-2002 |
Random thoughts: - I'd try plugging this all up somewhere else first, and see what you like and what you don't. I've bi-amped before, and it can be confusing inasmuch as you may hear lots of the high pass, and not so much low pass, depending on the room. Or vice-versa. -Over the years, I've grown to think bi-amping with bass cabinets (ALL of which were designed as 'stand-alone' bins, not designed for two- or three-way operation as PA bins are) is maybe a crapshoot to begin with. In the old days we did it, as there were so few good cabs and high-powered amps, no longer a consideration. Having said that, I can think of no one that builds a 'system' of bass cabs designed for two or three-way operation. -Then there's the consideration of that 'Gordian Knot' of all the control on a Series axe, plus the SuperFilter (and BTW, there's the F1X along the signal path, with crossover). All of that Q and gain, I instantly understand why Jimmy plays direct and has his positions marked ! Amazingly, when I biamped, I'd set a neutral tone and jack the high pass for more treble, jack the low end for more bass, and never touched the tone controls. -The 'classic' Alembic stereo idea was each pickup thru its own channel in the F2B, broken out to each side of a stereo power amp into separate cabs. These days you could also go into a chorus or delay, to feed the two channels to get that swirl across the two, the same thing the Jazz Chorus does internally. -Then past all that, you're really only doing this for your stage sound: After that, it's off into the house thru the Mains, where, hey, it's bi- or tri-amped depending on the setup, and any 'stereo' or 'chorus' effects would be applied. I'm reaching for Tylenol just thinking this thru . . . Good Luck ! Joey | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 2121 Registered: 2-2005 |
Generally full range bass cabinets work best when run full range and you let the natural acoustical qualities work. When running different types of cabinets such as an 18" and 4X10 it is good to run them in dual mono so you can balance them but that is about it. At one time Stanley Clarke's live rig consisted of two full range 18" running from the neck pickup and two full range 4X10 running from the bridge pickup. He also ran the bridge pickup through two 12" equipped guitar amps. In the early years the guitar amps were half Marshall stack but I have seen him use Fender Twins and these days some single 12 Fender. For the front end, other than the Carvin years, I have always seen him use one F1-X for the neck and another F1-X for the bridge pickups. To the best of my knowledge the basic building blocks haven't changed other than who makes the cabinets/guitar amps. Joey, Bag End builds bass cabinets intended for two-way use and the system controller supports 3-way although it isn't of much use for bass. This is what I use in my rig of 2, 18" subs and 2, 2X10 to handle everything above 98Hz. Keith | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 2290 Registered: 9-2002 |
Keith, I knew about BagEnd, and have always wanted to hear an ELF (I don't care what they call it these days . . . ), but as is the case of most things Ron, it's hardly a conventional bi-amp set-up, as cool as it must be. Interestingly, now BagEnd is offering self-powered cabinets, and yep, you can also get ELF built in. Neat ! Joey | ||
| dfung60
Senior Member Username: dfung60 Post Number: 601 Registered: 5-2002 |
Too late for advice on your gig, but I would keep life simple for the recording. Going DI is almost certainly going to give better fidelity sound in the recording than any mic setup on an amp, and certainly better than a multi-mic setup. This will eliminate any shortcomings in the speakers and mic and guarantee that you're starting from a signal that has no phase issues. If you go for a high-fi reproduction of the natural response of your bass, then you can DI from the output of your DS-5. If you like to EQ a lot, or use a compressor or other effects, then you want to DI from the point post your effects or right before the power amp. By doing this, you won't be losing control of your compression or EQ to the soundman. If you don't have a post-fx send on the amp, then you do create a problem where your changing the amp output level will change the recording level (that's why the soundman would rather take the DI directly from your instrument - only your instrument volume knob can screw the recording up then). If you're Flea or Tim Commerford, and a highly distorted power amp is part of your signature sound, then you'll need a mic on the cabinet. That's the only way authentically capture the sound of power amp distortion and speaker breakup. For the recording, if they can capture a track with your cabinet mic'ed, they can get an idea of what you intended your sound to be and use it to sweeten the mix if necessary. I've had bi-amp capability before, but never found it to sound great or be worth the trouble. You need a crossover when the cabinet that you're using can't reproduce some of the spectrum you want. If you like to use 18" speakers and you also want a bright slap sound, you can't reasonably expect the 18's to do it on their own, so you might add a cabinet with smaller speaker and crossover to split tasks. Now the 18's don't have to try to reproduce 4000Hz and the HF box doesn't need to be EQ'ed for 40Hz. If your HF speakers are 10", then if you had enough of them, you could reproduce the 40Hz (or at least 80Hz) cleanly, so why crossover? It's hard to set up useful crossover frequencies that don't introduce phase shifts and notches and lead to you carrying around a lot of hardware. Your mileage may vary! David Fung | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4338 Registered: 6-2002 |
Ok, we went neck pickup to 1x15 and bridge into 4x10. Tried do from bass then from the f1-x di and the engineer preferred the f1-x feeds. No sf-2 used at all. Both cabs were also close mic's. The rig we'd comfortable in volume and not loud on stage. I loved my onstage sound it was seriously incredible in clarity. I used my S1 for the first half and S2 for second and the difference there was clearly noticeable. The sound crew said they have never heard a bass that sounded this good clear and even toned. I will wait to hear the playback. I don't think bi smoking is something I will do that often as usually I only take one can to a gig and to be honest with two cabs on top of each other I couldn't hear a massive difference from mono. If I had an 18 inch or a 2x15 can on the neck pickup I expect it would be a different story. Anyway guys as usual you offer great insight for me and thanks for sharing your views and experience. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 5921 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jazzy: Sounds like your gig was fun. Post some audio if you can. Bill, tgo | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4339 Registered: 6-2002 |
Sorry my last post sounds odd the predictive text in my phone seems overzealous and changes words too drastically. | ||
| elwoodblue
Senior Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 1538 Registered: 6-2002 |
entertaining though (Bi-smoking can get complicated ) I'd love to hear some of your gig too. | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 2122 Registered: 2-2005 |
I would really like to hear the difference an 18 inch or 2x15 can would make on the bridge pickup. To expand the idea would you use aluminum or tin, pop top or old fashioned lids? The possibilities are endless. Keith | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3805 Registered: 5-2009 |
I have an old " Dual throat fold horn : loaded with a JBL K-151 that sounds awesome off a bridge pickup. It is an effective tool helping to obtain a JACO sound. Just a facsimile of that sound . | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3806 Registered: 5-2009 |
Double post gremlin correction (Message edited by sonicus on December 14, 2014) | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 2274 Registered: 11-2004 |
Low tech solution: Stick a mic in front of your amp..works for me everytime LOL | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4347 Registered: 6-2002 |
LOL Terry, you are absolutely correct. Most times keeping things simple is the best way to be. | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 2275 Registered: 11-2004 |
Jazzy...yeah it is, nowadays If I am doing a gig which involves a hired soundman & rigs I just DI from the amp and let them sort the outfront sound, sometimes you can get too caught up in it all that techno stuff and forget about the actual notes you are playing! There is a guy I know and whatever guitar he is using, whether it be a Squier Starter Strat or a custom boutique guitar going through whatever amp is available, he sounds like BB King everytime! It must be in his fingers! | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4348 Registered: 6-2002 |
Agreed that's what I normally do just take a DI from my rig but in this instance I wanted to take the opportunity to experiment because I had all the options available for me to do that. As for the fingers.... i think that is worthy of it's own thread. | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4349 Registered: 6-2002 |
Agreed that's what I normally do just take a DI from my rig but in this instance I wanted to take the opportunity to experiment because I had all the options available for me to do that. As for the fingers.... i think that is worthy of it's own thread. | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 2276 Registered: 11-2004 |
Jazzy..yeah good opportunity but I would be lost on all that, takes all my mental faculties just to adjust bass, low mid, high mid & treble and then factor in the filters on my bass! LOL | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 1877 Registered: 5-2002 |
I was all set to go stereo this weekend, but decide at the last moment to not bother. The sound guy mentioned that if he had another 421, he'd mic my cabinet (Sunn 200S with JBL K140s), so I offered up my RE20. He ended up just using that and never even brought the DI fader up. I guess it sounded good out front (lots of compliments for the bass tone), but I think the very lowest frequencies were missing. I'm interested in hearing your impressions of the recording, Jazzy. Were your signals sent post-EQ? Adjusting all these things is pretty straightforward once you get clear about what the purpose of each tonal option is. Biamping is for balancing highs and lows (or the pickups in stereo), amp tone controls are to interface the bass tone to the room and the onboard electronics are to adjust the tone for each part of the song. At least that's how I think about it. So, if I notice an issue, it's pretty clear what knobs I have to go for. | ||
| stephenr
Junior Username: stephenr Post Number: 21 Registered: 9-2014 |
Strange that the sound guy used the mic feed and not the DI or a combo of the two. I also think you probably lost a bit of lowest frequencies without the DI but if it sounded good in the room and you were happy with the stage sound that is all that matters. Pretty much every soundman I work with wants a feed from a DI that is in front of my pre-amp so I bring my Avalon U5 to every gig. If there are enough channels available I ask them to also mic my cabinets. For a live recording like Jazzy's recent one where there were multiple channels available for the bass it seems like a good time to experiment with sending each pickup to a different channel even if they get summed into mono for the FOH feed. | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4350 Registered: 6-2002 |
Edwin, all being well I should get the recordings from the venue tomorrow afternoon so probably won't get a chance to listen properly till Wednesday. The DI signals were taken Post-EQ. | ||
| willie
Advanced Member Username: willie Post Number: 256 Registered: 11-2003 |
If I had a Series Bass I would run it in stereo and Bi-Amp the output of each pick up separately. Both pickups have a wide frequency range. I wouldn't limit either pickups sound by it being reproduced by a single sized driver that can't reproduce cleanly and accurately the full range the pickup is capable of. But that's me. And I never claimed to be normal. Haha. | ||
| pauldo
Senior Member Username: pauldo Post Number: 1364 Registered: 6-2006 |
I like Edwin's 'straightforward' description. Interesting enough (although I haven't been in a large scenario that required it in a looonng time and as Stephen mentioned) past experiences with Sound guys was they always DI'd pre EQ, which meant that my FOH sound ultimatly was controlled by whomever was behind the board. :-( Jazzy, you were fortunate to have a post-EQ DI. With that being said - when (again a long time ago) I use my 'big rig' it is a GK800RB bi-amped into a 2x10 and 1x15; and most of the time the amp EQ was set relatively flat seeing that I had a tone monster worth of control on my Distillate - the only change for room sound would be where the frequency was set for the bi-amp split. blah blah blah blah - sometimes I just like to hear myself talk . . . . The gigs I played in the last couple years have easily and respectfully been handled with a Carvin MB15, | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3814 Registered: 5-2009 |
Willie , I have done as you describe in your post #256 as an experiment . Such a notion makes me brain-storm ____ ! ( the geek gets out and romps about and such ) What would your personal choice of respective cross-over frequencies be ? What drivers would you use ? What would you look for as far as the excursion figures of the lowest frequency driver ? In other terms what XMAX figures would you look for to make it appealing to your application requirements ? I was just wondering regarding your preferences ____ Wolf | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 1879 Registered: 5-2002 |
I had a stereo biamped system for a while. I found that the bridge pickup didn't benefit nearly as much as the neck pickup. In fact, one of my favorite setups these days is using a Showman with a Sunn 200S for the neck pickup and a Bandmaster with a single JBL K-120 for the bridge. That's pretty much all I need, although that's for a particular tone. If I was playing funk, it wouldn't do it at all. I also think that biamping isn't really necessary for certain speakers. A fEARful has an excellent passive crossover (which weighs more than the woofer) and with a cabinet like that, there's no real need to biamp, especially now that power amps are very powerful and light these days. Most bass cabinets are so colored that biamping can really help overcome limitations of the cheap passive crossovers, etc. I'd rather use a fEARful full range than pretty much all of the commercial bass cabinets biamped. But that's just me. | ||
| willie
Advanced Member Username: willie Post Number: 257 Registered: 11-2003 |
Wolf I used to use JBL drivers. But now I use Beyma Drivers in cabinets I designed and built or ones I modified. For lows I use a 15G40's. 15" driver, 25-1500 Hz., Xmax 7mm. Thunderous clear lows. For mids I use 10MI100's. 10" mid bass driver. 70-4000 Hz. Xmax 4.5 mm. The clearest mid bass sounds I ever heard in a bass rig. I have a lot of 10" woofers but don't use them. I always Bi-amp so my 10's never see any real lows and the mid bass drivers reproduce mids way better than a woofer could. For highs I use CP-22 Bullet super tweeters. 4000-20000 Hz. Crossovers at 150 Hz and 4000 Hx. Depending on cabinet combination I am using I use 2 Crown MA9000I Amps in Bridge Mono. One for lows and one for highs. I can also add 2 Crown PB-3 Amps each in bridge mono if using all my cabinets. So either 12000 or 15000 watts. I also separately compress my highs, lows and full range signals. I use F-1X Pre-amps, SF-2 Filter and DBX 160A Compressors. I think this is the clearest and best sounding bass rig I ever heard, I don't have a Series Bass so I don't get to Bi-Amp each pickups output. If I did I would for the ultimate control and reproduction of the tone each pickup can produce.. But my Alembic Basses sound great through this rig. It can fully reproduce them accurately and cleanly. Oh yeah, it can be loud too! | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4351 Registered: 6-2002 |
I can imagine JJ reading this thread and having a wry smile to himself as he walks on stage, plugs into a a couple of DI-boxes and delivers some serious bass vibes. I'm gonna try that with my series bass next year and see how that works. Though I can imagine my reggae band wanting to hear & feel more bottom end on stage. | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 2277 Registered: 11-2004 |
I can imagine Jaco reading this and becoming totally confused to what everyone is going on about! | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3815 Registered: 5-2009 |
Willie ,Thanks for your response . The 7mm Xmax is very impressive on those Beyma 15G40's ! Your rig indeed seems noteworthy ! ___ ! Nice gear . Wolf | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3816 Registered: 5-2009 |
Willie ,Thanks for your response . The 7mm Xmax is very impressive on those Beyma 15G40's ! Your rig indeed seems noteworthy ! ___ ! Nice gear . Wolf | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 1880 Registered: 5-2002 |
Jazzy, I've done that a few times. Having good in ear monitors helps (I use Futuresonics, which are based on actual speakers, rather than balanced armatures, so they have fantastic low end). Trying to get satisfying bass tone out of a wedge is pretty difficult. If the house is cranked up enough, you can get all the low end thump you need from there. | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4833 Registered: 6-2002 |
Now I've done the stereo thing and would try it again depending on the gig. My regular setup when I'm using my series basses is to go mono out of the DS-5 and into one F1-x and to the QSC. Which sounds great and makes my gig easier to swap between series and non series on the same gig. However for some gigs I want to experiment with other options to hear if they are worth the effort and produce audible results. I'd like to have both pickups going to their separate F1-x's but at some point combine those signals so I have the final output in mono into one cab How I'm doing this currently is to feed each F1-x output into separate inputs on the QSC which is in Parallel Input mode. That just means that a signal at any of its inputs goes to both speaker outputs. ( Note: the manual does not show an example of putting two signals into the amp in this mode). However, even though it sounds fine to me, i've been advised that this is not the best way to do it as it's basically just using it as a Y cable. So with that in mind what is the best inexpensive way to do this, without getting an F2-B?. Is it a sensible thought to put an active AB-Y switcher pedal in line between the F1-x outputs and QSC so that I can get a proper combined signal mono into only one channel of the QSC. | ||
| moongerm
Advanced Member Username: moongerm Post Number: 324 Registered: 8-2013 |
A good and cost effective passive A & B - A or B pedal is the Morley.  | ||
| edwardofhuncote
Senior Member Username: edwardofhuncote Post Number: 800 Registered: 6-2014 |
Maybe this is a good place to ask... suppose I wanted to use the high and low-pass outputs of my F-1X into a power amp, is it as simple as just using another of the same 1/4" TRS-to-XLR cables to the other channel input? Currently, I'm taking the F-1X's full-range output to Channel 1 input, and using the amplifier's on-board crossover to send 94 Hz and lower to a designated LF cabinet. The frequencies above are going to a pair of full range capable cabs with an equal (or close) impedance to the LF cab. (I'm putting a 4 ohm load on each channel, which as I understand it is capable of a 2 ohm minimum) What if anything should I do different, or be cautious of? I'm pretty happy with the way the rig works now, just wanting to experiment... but without danger to either the amp or cabs. | ||
| elwoodblue
Senior Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 1807 Registered: 6-2002 |
Yes, just use the two outputs(high/low) instead of the full range. I'd put the crossover point on the F-1X at 94hz or disable the amp crossover. Then using the poweramp attenuators, find the balance between the channels using your ears. happy hi-fi thumping! | ||
| elwoodblue
Senior Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 1808 Registered: 6-2002 |
Clarification request: Are you presently bridging the amp channels or just using half of it (channel 1)? | ||
| edwardofhuncote
Senior Member Username: edwardofhuncote Post Number: 802 Registered: 6-2014 |
Ummm... not sure exactly how to answer. The power amp is a Crown XLS 2000 http://www.crownaudio.com/en-US/products/xls-2000 There's a PDF of the manual here. I've followed the instructions to put the amp into "INPUT Y XOVER" mode, so *right this minute* there's one input from the F-1X going into Channel 1 input, but both outputs 1 & 2 are live. Channel 2 is receiving/sending only frequencies above the crossover setpoint out to the full-range speakers, while Channel 1 is only getting the frequencies below the setpoint. (I have it set at 94, but it's adjustable) In short, there is no physical Bridge, (as in banana clips or hard wires) between the two outputs. Although I have at times programmed the amp for "BRIDGE MONO" mode for using just the two full-range cabs daisy-chained on one channel. There are knucklehead-proof instructions for that too, which I seem determined to unseat with all this fooling around! I think this is going to be simply what you originally posted - just run another 1/4" TRS-to-XLR to Channel 2 input and set the front controls accordingly. If I'm reading the instructions in the manual correctly, I should put the amp into "STEREO BYPASS" mode to use both outputs of the F-1X this way. Thanks in advance Elwood! (Message edited by edwardofhuncote on January 27, 2016) | ||
| elwoodblue
Senior Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 1809 Registered: 6-2002 |
You will want to configure it so each channel is discrete(unbridged stereo). You might even find that there isn't much difference in sound splitting the signal in the amp, like you have as opposed to splitting the signal at the F-1X. (Maybe less digital artifacts??) If there's an attenuator for your horns on your full range cabs, sometimes it's nice to tame the super highs using that. You'll have to report back after playing a while. I'll meditate on this and have a look at your manual. I don't own any newer Crowns,I know others here do. p.s. I asked you a question in my wood thread about my stand-up bass (Message edited by elwoodblue on January 27, 2016) | ||
| edwardofhuncote
Senior Member Username: edwardofhuncote Post Number: 805 Registered: 6-2014 |
Spent a little time playing with this last night, and I have to say again how much I love this F-1X. It's just amazing how much versatility is in that one box, even (and especially) with other basses than Alembic-made ones, but my Persuader just requires less tweaking and twiddling on the front. So, I put the Crown amp into "STEREO BYPASS" mode, (which is actually it's default setting) and used a second 1/4" TRS-to-XLR cable to connect both the Low-Pass and High Freq. outputs of the F-1X to Channels 1 & 2 inputs respectively. (as Elwood suggested)  Here's where I landed... it does require a little more thought as a Bi-Amp rig than just simply using the amp's internal crossover... I found that soloing each Channel so I could hear the fine adjustments to each side was easiest. These settings produced a pretty happy sound... nothing too radical here:   Need to spend some more time exploring, but wow... it's just incredible what sounds you can hear when you have access to them. | ||
| nemesis
New Username: nemesis Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2016 |
Hello this is Jon “Nemesis” in Tucson. This is a great discussion and one I wanted to bring up to the experts. I have a 79 Series I short scale 4 string. I am the original owner. My baby has just recently been back to the factory for a complete refinish/refurb. I hadn’t played it 25+ years prior to the trip to the mothership. Anyway wanting to get back into playing again, in my retirement time. My setup in the 70’s was trying to emulate the John Entwhisle sound. I went for the stereo setup and used a Sunn Coliseum with 2 18’s on the neck pickup, and a Sunn Concert Bass with 8 12’s on the bridge pickup. I also used a Roland stereo flanger to send the sound around in circles. The setup could move mountains.....I liked the sound, but only could get about 1/2 of John’s notes at any given time. So now, I still have the Coliseum with the 2 monster 18 cabs. My question to the group is many fold. I would like to get setup again and have the possibility to do the stereo thing or perhaps not and stick with mono. I want to get something that is way more portable, and probably sounds better than what I have now. I have been looking at eh Genzler stuff, and wondering what you all thought of that. Perhaps coupled with the Coliseum head and speakers TBD. I really like the thought of the Genzler cab with the 1 15 and the horns, but really open to any thoughts. I have always admired Crown, but hadn’t given it much thought. Thanks in advance for any guidance, “Nemesis” Jon | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 2568 Registered: 9-2002 |
Jon, I'm a vet from those days (Acoustic, Peavey W-bins, you name it), and the difference in amps and cabs from then to now is like the difference in tech has made huge leaps. My first question would be how attached are you to that Sunn Coliseum? I see no parallel between 'vintage amps' for bass players like I do for guitar players, but thought I'd ask . . . . as far as 'how loud' and 'how bright', ala Entwistle, it's easily enough done, something that was much harder to say back in the day. My first inclination would not be towards any mixing of the Sunn stuff and modern components, but that's me. Joey | ||
| rv_bass
New Username: rv_bass Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2014 |
Hi Jon, For a cab, I've switeched to Accugroove El Whappo, it's light weight, can handle power, and uncolored. Speakers consist of 15", 12", 6", and two soft tweeters. I'm from the Who, Dead, Traffic, Airplane, etc. era as well and I'm happy with it. Rob  | ||
| nemesis
New Username: nemesis Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2016 |
Rob and Joey, Thank you for the thoughts. Being I guess one would call me an newbie, I have a lot to learn again. I'm not attached to the Sunn at all, just had it all this time. It was dormant like the Alembic. I'd like to find someone who wants a mountain moving beast of a Sunn, so I can get more portable. I took a look at the Accugroove, those look really nice. I like the multi size speakers in them. I'll keep looking for more info on those and anything else anyone suggests. Looks like the Accugroove is in the process of setting up some dealers, with the one I can find is in Georgia. One thing I forgot to mention was my bass is a graphite neck Series I short scale. It came back from the factory yesterday, man did Mica and company do an AMAZING job!!!! Again Thank you for the thoughts, and really looking to hear what else anybody might suggest, full well knowing these things are a matter if taste, rather than moving mountains in days gone by. Jon | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2260 Registered: 5-2002 |
Stereo Series bass->Alembic F2B->Crest Prolite 3.0 (or equivalent Peavey)->fEARful 15/6 for neck pickup and fEArful 12/6/1 for the bridge and call it done. Lightweight and very loud and full range. All of a sudden FOH engineers are very into the stereo DI. The last two really loved it! So, my signal chain inserts a Grace Design Felix in the signal chain. Unfortunately, that means the signal to the speakers is currently mono, but Grace is working on a mod. | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 2571 Registered: 9-2002 |
It would first come down to a primary decision at the start, that being a) Would a contemporary (traditional) bass amp and speakers (think Mesa, Genzler, Aguilar, Fender, and on and on) suit what you want, as they've made tremendous strides since the 70's? OR b) Would you prefer to go a 'component' route, like the rig Ed suggested above, the classic preamp/power amp/effects (rack-mount gear) and more esoteric cabinets like the FearFuls, Acmes, Epifanis, El Whappos (no Italians in THAT company), etc. ? While the difference in the two approaches in more cases today is not as great as it once was, the 'bass amp' head or combo is like one of those TV's with the DVD player built in: That's as good as it's ever going to get. And even in today's world, the distortion figures on 'dedicated' bass amps is still many times that of component gear, if not in the preamps, certainly in the power amp end of it. A Series/graphite axe is going to be as dry and surgically clean-sounding an Alembic as can be had. You will have to decide if you want to warm/fatten it up a lot, or if a studio/headphone type presentation is what you want to carry thru the whole way. By far the biggest difference is that the power amp rig will (Considering you're NOT running a tiny power amp like a D60 Crown . . . ) have a ton more headroom. In that case, you're shooting for the 'big amp turned up to 2' and it never farts out on the low E's and never is anything less than disturbingly clear, and the connection between hands and strings and what you're hearing is instant, fast, never bogs down. Not that you couldn't approach that with a 'big' bass head, but it's still noticeably different. And this very precise presentation may not be for everyone. I once fronted a CS800-based rig to a terrific player in a soul band, who loved it, but could not get used to losing the grunge he was used to with his SVT. 'It's TOO clean'. And that's alright. You'll just have to decide. Joey | ||
| ed_zeppelin
Advanced Member Username: ed_zeppelin Post Number: 308 Registered: 2-2010 |
I was thinking the same thing while reading this thread, but only because Jazzyvee mentioned this is the OP:
I spent some time recently on Joni Mitchell's site and happened to read her eulogy for Jaco from the December, 1987 issue of "Musician" magazine called; "The Life and Death of Jaco Pastorius." (I hope nobody minds if I quote just a little bit more than just the relevant reference to the Roland JC120 here. I encourage people to read the rest of her touching reminiscence at that link.)
 Peter Erskine, Joni, Jaco, Herbie. Jaco had weird thumbs. | ||
| moongerm
Advanced Member Username: moongerm Post Number: 369 Registered: 8-2013 |
Hey Edwin, Based on your recommendation I got the Grace Felix several months ago and am digging it. I am using it as my only preamp/DI for shows that don't afford me to bring out the Alembic PREs. QSC GX7 into the Grace Felix stereo (using the amp 1/4" out for my bridge pickup) and the DI 1 for the neck. Then I use DI 2 as my DI out to the board in mix mode. I would love to get that mod you mentioned for the Felix. I have to check out those fEarfuls one day. -Brian | ||
| moongerm
Advanced Member Username: moongerm Post Number: 370 Registered: 8-2013 |
I wish I could unsee that thumb. Cripes that's scary. (Message edited by moongerm on March 27, 2016) (Message edited by moongerm on March 27, 2016) | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 2388 Registered: 2-2005 |
Jon, Ah yes the days when our backs were stronger than our minds. I used to use two Acoustic 301's and two front load cabinets with JBL K140's. Who knows if I had kept it I might be in better physical shape today. I have only run stereo to dabble around at my house. For all of my normal playing I use a mono rig and have had no trouble getting the sound I want. I do use components of a an Eden Navigator and QSC power amp but I would feel comfortable using an integrated head with similar tone circuits. For speakers I have down scaled to a maximum of two full range 2X10 cabinets. One with a tweeter the other without. Prior to this I was using a Bag End ELF subsystem and would use a combination of single 18's and 2X10 cabinets depending upon my needs. The ELF provides signal processing and crossover for a bi-amp setup. Basically a mini bass PA that was smaller, lighter and sounded better than my 70's rig. While it has a good sound I just don't need it anymore for the type of playing I do and the 2X10's are more than adequate to give me the tone I want to hear. So to sum it up I would not try to resurrect the old Sun rig except for nostalgia or if I was maybe in a Who tribute act. Instead I would look at modern amps/cabinets and if I were starting fresh lean towards an integrated head with 2-way/3-way cabinet or cabinets. Keith | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2261 Registered: 5-2002 |
Weirdly, Xander has the opposite of that thumb. His won't even straighten out. He inherited it from his mom. They also both have double jointed thumbs and he's always delighted that he can pop it out and I can't. Oh well. I'll find out about the Felix mods this week. It would probably be a question of repurposing the footswitch jack for channel 2 output and then not having a volume control for that channel, so the gain to the amp would have to be set at the amp. The good part about that mod is that everything else would work as normal, from mutes to the mono out (which would be simply panned to output 1 for the stereo setup). I'll keep you posted. | ||
| nemesis
New Username: nemesis Post Number: 3 Registered: 3-2016 |
Thank you to all for all the guidance about setups, and getting away from the 70's "technology"..... I have a lot to look at now, but with the suggestions from the group I have lots to look at and think about. I thank you all so much and will continue to watch for more ideas. As I move forward with getting new equipment I keep you all posted. Lastly, do any of you have any thoughts of how to sell a Sunn setup, beside perhaps Ebay etc.? Thank you Jon |
