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jazzyvee
Senior Member
Username: jazzyvee

Post Number: 4842
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Friday, January 01, 2016 - 9:07 am:   Edit Post

In all the years I've had alembic's I don't recall having to change the intonation regardless of the strings I put on the bass. Well recently about a couple of months ago I got some elixir coated bass strings 45 -130. I did one gig with them just after they were put on and the last one was last night.
Anyway at soundcheck I noticed that the intonation was out, not by much but enough for me to check it with my new tuner and sure enough the G and D strings are a bit off. Anyway after soundcheck I decided to see if I could get it right before showtime and started with the G-string which was slightly sharp so the bridge saddle needed to be moved backwards. But when I moved it and kept testing the intonation hardly changed at all. I was careful to re-tune every thing before checking the harmonic and note at the 12th fret. I moved the saddle back towards the tailpiece about 5mm using the allen key and it hardly made any difference to the intonation. So I put it back where it was previously, did the gig and now want to get everything adjusted properly before the next gig.

Am I going wrong somewhere?
The only think I wondered afterwards was if I should have removed/loosened the nut holding the saddle adjustment screw first and also should I slacken off the string before adjusting the saddle position.

Thanks
smokin_dave
Senior Member
Username: smokin_dave

Post Number: 443
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Friday, January 01, 2016 - 9:55 am:   Edit Post

Using a strobe tuner always worked best for me.In the past I ran into the same thing and used a friends Strobe tuner as opposed to the chromatic tuner I was using.The Strobe did the trick.
jazzyvee
Senior Member
Username: jazzyvee

Post Number: 4844
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Friday, January 01, 2016 - 11:04 am:   Edit Post

With respect smokin_dave, I appreciate that the strobe tuner may well be the most accurate but firstly I need to determine the correct method of adjusting the alembic bridge which is primarily what I'm trying to establish.

As it stands, I don't have a strobe tuner so whatever the answer is to the above I will have to make do with what I have currently which is a boss TU3 pedal tuner and a TC Electronics Polytune clip. I previously owned a peterson strobostomp tuner but there was a fault with it and i returned it for a refund.

Thanks for chipping in. :-)
smokin_dave
Senior Member
Username: smokin_dave

Post Number: 444
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Friday, January 01, 2016 - 12:46 pm:   Edit Post

Hey Jazzy.This a great thread on correctly setting intonation.

http://alembic.com/club/messages/393/20353.html?1124583910

Using new strings and slightly detuning the string for saddle adjustments seems to be the way to go.

Mod.Dave uses the 5th fret harmonic and fretted 24th fret method.
jazzyvee
Senior Member
Username: jazzyvee

Post Number: 4845
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Friday, January 01, 2016 - 1:20 pm:   Edit Post

Thanks Dave, I read that thread but I didn't find anything about whether you should unscrew the saddle bolt so I wasn't sure enough to proceed. Anyway I managed to get hold of John Prock ( a former alembic employee) on Facebook and he told me I was doing things correctly so I've continued with that approach and now the intonation is ok.
Thanks
bigredbass
Senior Member
Username: bigredbass

Post Number: 2528
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Friday, January 01, 2016 - 2:17 pm:   Edit Post

Jazzy: In my experience, Brand A 45-130 intonates differently than Brand B 45-130 intonates differently than Brand C 45-130.

In other words, Replace, say Roto SwingBass 45-130's with any other brand's roundwound 45-130 and you're going to need to re-tune your saddle lengths, albeit probably only slightly.

This is because the construction (type/size core, gauges of the how many external windings, etc.) are going to vary from brand to brand. So even though the sizes are the same, they are two different things.

Also, tuned to 'working' pitch, sometimes, some saddles will 'drag' the windings with them, so you sometimes have to de-tune to allow free movement as you turn the screw/move the saddle, then re-tune once you've broken that 'sticky set' the string took. Never used them, but I could see that 'sheath' that those Elixirs are covered in doing this.

Joey
bigredbass
Senior Member
Username: bigredbass

Post Number: 2529
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Friday, January 01, 2016 - 2:17 pm:   Edit Post

Jazzy: In my experience, Brand A 45-130 intonates differently than Brand B 45-130 intonates differently than Brand C 45-130.

In other words, Replace, say Roto SwingBass 45-130's with any other brand's roundwound 45-130 and you're going to need to re-tune your saddle lengths, albeit probably only slightly.

This is because the construction (type/size core, gauges of the how many external windings, etc.) are going to vary from brand to brand. So even though the sizes are the same, they are two different things.

Also, tuned to 'working' pitch, sometimes, some saddles will 'drag' the windings with them, so you sometimes have to de-tune to allow free movement as you turn the screw/move the saddle, then re-tune once you've broken that 'sticky set' the string took. Never used them, but I could see that 'sheath' that those Elixirs are covered in doing this.

Joey
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq

Post Number: 6316
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Friday, January 01, 2016 - 3:46 pm:   Edit Post

I always de-tune a lot, basically allow the string to be almost slack, then adjust the bridge piece either forward or backward, as appropriate, and then re-tune and check the intonation. I never adjust intonation while the string is taut.

Bill, tgo
ed_zeppelin
Advanced Member
Username: ed_zeppelin

Post Number: 220
Registered: 2-2010
Posted on Friday, January 01, 2016 - 8:59 pm:   Edit Post

I'll repost David Fung's brilliant post about tuning, because he is far more eloquent and knowlegible than I:


quote:

If you play a note really hard, it will often start a hair sharp because of the extra tension while it's vibrating at high amplitude. A "gauge" tuner probably won't see that as much as a faster-responding strobe or strobe simulator would. So, it's better to wait until the note volume has dropped down to where the pitch stabilizes.

The bigger cause of tuner instability is something else though. When you play a note, you're playing a fundamental and many harmonics. Because of how stringed instruments work, the chances of the fundamental and the harmonics all being in tune is pretty much zero. It's because a real-world string has a stiffness factor that affects a note and it's harmonics differently - the higher harmonics act as if the string it too short and therefore will tend to be sharp. This is why you set your intonation, but that's only a partial fix. If you set intonation at the octave then your fundamental and harmonics will only be in tune around the octave and likewise for wherever you set intonation at.

The tuner "hears" this stack of out of tune notes and tries to come up with the frequency of it. In most cases, it will end up measuring the loudest harmonic. As a plucked note sustains, the harmonics are dying out at different speeds (in most cases high ones first) and the "loudest harmonic" is changing. That's what's causing the tuner to give an unstable reading. If you check intonation at a particular note, you may see that that particular note doesn't have very good intonation, even if the instrument is properly set up. Personally, I wouldn't sweat it that much - there's no way you can perfect it across the neck (perfect strings can't be made) and you'll be on to the next note soon anyway!

Your strings will probably be "more perfect" if you play lighter gauges with thinner more flexible cores. Materials and construction would matter too. Unfortunately at the relatively short scale length of electric basses (vs. something like an upright bass) approaching perfection would probably be a very wimpy sounding string indeed. A guitar low E string at 34" would vibrate much more ideally, but wouldn't sound particularly good.

A true strobe (a Conn Strobotuner or one of the very high end Petersons) is really fast to respond to pitch changes. They way that they work is that there's a disk (or group of disks if you have a really good one) with a black-and-white pattern in concentric rings spinning at a very accurate speed. The audio note you play is amplified and fed to a neon lamp which then blinks at a speed that reflects the frequency of what you're playing. Unlike an incandescent bulb, the neon bulb turns on and off instantly and doesn't slowly dim. The flashing neon light lights the rotating strobe disk, and if the pitch of the note you're playing is exactly correct, the pattern on the strobe disk will appear to be stationary. If the pitch is high or low, you'll recreate the appearance of movement to the left or right.

A regular guitar tuner like the Boss has a little microprocessor in it that tries to count the frequency of what it's hearing, compares it to a reference table and moves the needle to show sharp or flat. The accuracy of the pitch shown depends on the accuracy of this measurement and how fast the measurment is taken. To simplify counting the frequency, most tuners don't listen to the entire spectrum of the instrument - the highs and lows are filtered off to make it easier to count. So it might not be listening to the fundamental of your bass, but a harmonic and trying to measure that. If you filter off too much of the fundamental or high harmonics, you may have a hard time accurately setting intonation.

A true strobe tuner doesn't have this kind of problem, and, in fact can simultaneously show the fundamental and harmonics out of tune with each other. Each of the concentric bands on the strobe display is a different harmonic. So it's definitely a better machine for setting up intonation, if you can get your hands on one.

Boxes like the Peterson Virtual Strobe or StroboStomp are more like the Boss tuner than a true strobe. Instead of wiggling a needle, a VS-1 is drawing a picture of a real strobe display. But what Peterson is doing here is splitting highs, mids, and lows into multiple bands, performing the calculation individually on each band and showing them individually in the simulated strobe display. It's not as fast or accurate as a real strobe, but will show things like the harmonics being out of tune with the fundamental. And they count more accurately too, since they have a more powerful processor.


jazzyvee
Senior Member
Username: jazzyvee

Post Number: 4846
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Saturday, January 02, 2016 - 3:40 am:   Edit Post

Ok all is well an the bass is in tune with itself. The G saddle on the first picture is the one that needed correction. The saddle was just about where it shows in the second picture before I adjusted the intonation. I'm surprised the difference is that great.

This one has been adjusted for the new Elixir strings.


This is another bass with D'addario Pro steel strings.


Anyway its sounding fine now so I guess all is well.
Sorry for the large pics, Even though I reduce the image size and file size they often sill end up looking big.

(Message edited by jazzyvee on January 02, 2016)

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