| Author | Message | ||
| edwardofhuncote
Senior Member Username: edwardofhuncote Post Number: 825 Registered: 6-2014 |
Any of you folks that regularly, or even casually play bass with a pick (or plectrum if you prefer the proper) mind giving some advice? So I made this New Years' Resolution to learn to play at least a couple tunes with a pick. Not that it would ever be a primary mode for me, but just to have that club in the bag so-to-speak. I am making progress, but it's been slow going for a stubborn old upright player. Probably the largest hurdle so far has been the sheer mechanics of it being so radically different. All this time I've been used to pulling and releasing a string so that the note blooms and decays within the window of time my brain tells me the note belongs. That happens much faster with the pick, and therefore feels much harder to control. Muting is pretty strange too… I’m doing it all with my left hand. It was quite an adjustment to land the notes where I wanted them, but once that passed it got easier. The easy parts… I'm no stranger to a flat-pick, having used one with guitar for years, (and even as a closet mandolin player) so no problem there. Also, the pick itself - I typically use very thick, stiff picks, so no real learning curve there either. I was easily able to find a way to hold it and get the tone I wanted fairly quick moving around between the pickups until I found a happy spot. Oddly, it’s just slightly bridge-ward from my regular finger-style place. I’ve found that hard-anchoring a finger somewhere isn’t necessary to accomplish what I’m trying to do here. So I’m wondering, at this point, is really just down to practice time and determination? Are there any exercises I could use to become more proficient? Any bad habits I should avoid? Any role models? I’ll take anything you got, and be thankful for it. =) | ||
| stephenr
Intermediate Member Username: stephenr Post Number: 166 Registered: 9-2014 |
I probably play with a pick about 90% of the time. Always have liked the punchy and defined tone you can get. I also use heavy picks, green or blue triangular Dunlops, but I turn the pick sideways with the pointy part aimed back into my hand and use just a small amount of the corner, 1/16"-1/8", to do the actual picking. Almost the entire side of the pick is firmly against my thumb. I find this gives me the meatiest tone with a solid attack. If I want an even fatter tone, that sounds closer to using fingers I slide my thumb down a bit more so that the side of the thumb is contacting the string either completely or in tandem with the thinnest sliver of the pick giving a deader/rounder tone. I never play with the pointy end of the pick, to my ears the sound is too thin and "clangy". If I want a thinner tone I just pick closer to the bridge, for the fattest tone I pick up near or just over the end of the fingerboard. I also find the end of the fingerboard to be a spot where I can lightly pick a low note to emphasize the subharmonics with no attack sound and less emphasis on the fundamental. I usually do that to place a single soft-sounding sustaining pedal point under a vocal passage. As far as exercises I would suggest working on playing scales or even just finger exercises that move across and up and down all the strings paying attention to maintaining alternate strokes when moving string to string. Eventually using alternate strokes becomes second nature, though, there may be times when hammering all down strokes works best for the part you are playing. Most of my muting is done with the left hand. I control how long the notes ring out plus the general shape of the note and whether the lower or upper harmonics are dominant by how hard or long I press down coupled with right hand technique. For a completely dead fat sound I mute with my palm. Pretty sure I gravitated toward using a pick because I grew up listening to 60s rock and pop music and so many of the hits of the day had Carol Kaye playing on them using a pick. Interestingly she also generally used a foam mute under the strings but still had a very defined punchy sound. | ||
| gtrguy
Senior Member Username: gtrguy Post Number: 996 Registered: 9-2004 |
I play with a pick and my fingers. I really like to record bass with a pick, as it adds attack and clarity if used right. If it is too much, I opt to place a bit of foam under the strings at the bridge. Since I first started on guitar many years ago, using a pick on bass was easy. I might try playing just downstrokes at first on the bass, and then work on to up and down strokes later. many great bass players use a pick. | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 1623 Registered: 1-2005 |
I saw when you posted something similar on TalkBass but didn't respond then - feel more comfortable here! My question would be - do you want it to sound the same when you use a pick vs. using fingers? Then I would just say play what you normally play with the pick and maybe even record it to see how close you are getting. I have been playing with both fingers and pick since I started around '83 or '84 - I find that I play very differently when using the two techniques, but that is what I am going for. I also play differently depending on the bass I am using. But there is no one way to use a pick - it can be supportive or it can be aggressive, precise or sloppy, again depending on what you are going for. I have gravitated to heavier picks - right now using the really thick Adamas graphite picks, though when I play my 8-string Rickenbacker I go for thinner Telefunken graphite/delrin picks (both of which Edwin turned me on to). I guess my only "advice" is practice and experiment! | ||
| elwoodblue
Senior Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 1820 Registered: 6-2002 |
My .02c, I'm using Coolpicks Juratex, thick. Usually I play right around the end of the fingerboard. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2192 Registered: 5-2002 |
Great advice here! My 02c would be to just jump in and start playing some gigs with a pick to get it all happening. It's one thing to practice with a pick, it's another to play with a drummer and band. I think you'll quickly find out how to get in the pocket with the pick. There are some tutorials out there. Bobby Vega probably has some good videos. Carol Kaye is also a good resource. Part of her trip is to down pick on the downbeats and up pick on the upbeats. I've never taken the time to really get that down in any real way, but it seems like it might be worth trying out. Also, be aware of and use all the pickup techniques available. You can pick using finger motion (push with your thumb and counter that with your first finger); pick with your wrist, and then for the big stuff, pick with your whole forearm. And experiment with combinations. Getting the wrist one going with the finger one can result in some great dexterity. Finally, I'd say, even more than finger style, let the amp do the work. Picking too hard can really choke the note off, so it's easier to get sustain and evenness of tone when the amp is turned up and you are picking lightly. It's also easier on the wrist, etc. It took me years to learn this and I still forget it too often. Have fun! PS. I'm pretty much back to the standard Fender heavy pick. Different picks will give a different tonal response with different strings. | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 2556 Registered: 9-2002 |
At first, I only played with a pick. Later, I'd play fast stuff with it, then slow stuff with fingers. Now I mostly play fingers, and drag out the pick when the notion strikes me. I use the big Fender triangles, #355 Heavy. If I were to recommend any kind of practice routine, I'd just suggest do what you usually work on with the pick, instead of your fingers. Over the years, I'd originally set a two-channel amp, one for pick tone, the other for finger-style. As it's gone on, I've gravitated to a one-sound-fits-all, and adjust where I'm playing to achieve the just-right part. In the old days, I'd pound, and often broke strings (strangely enough, E's and A's). Then I discovered the gain knob. . . . . I often will adjust the action a bit higher to compensate for the pick, it just makes a bigger wiggle, and if I set it real low for finger-style, it will begin to rattle with a pick. That sound is always in the back of my head. Bob Taylor talks about the 'bone tone': How fleshy or bony your fingers are will affect your tone. I could never get a sufficiently snarky attack with fingers only, so that was that. I think it's a much firmer tone which I prefer. IIRC, Anthony Jackson strictly uses a pick. Joey | ||
| edwardofhuncote
Senior Member Username: edwardofhuncote Post Number: 831 Registered: 6-2014 |
Thanks Fellas... I 'preciate the advice. From reading what you guys have posted here, sounds like I'm on the right track at least. To answer Harry's question - I'm actually quite enjoying how different it sounds playing with a pick rather than trying to make them sound the same. That said, I've also discovered my eq settings do need some adjustment when using a pick. (hint - "Deep" switch on the F-1X) As to Edwin's comment - *absolutely* the drum effect cracked the code for me on the right-hand timing differential between pick or fingerstyle. I often practice with WikiLoops backing tracks using only drums and guitars for reference, and there are a couple monster drummers on there. After trying several different shapes and styles, here's the picks I like. Ironically, I use these same ones for mandolin. They're a couple mm's thick, with no give whatsoever, and roll off the strings very fast. Big enough that they are easy to hold, but still don't feel huge.  (^^^not actual size^^^) =) Again, Thanks All! It's been slow going, but definitely making progress. Looking long-term, after my custom fretless is done, I may set up the Persuader with some rounds and try the pick out on it too. (my beloved TI Jazz Flats are just too sponge-y for picking) | ||
| rv_bass
New Username: rv_bass Post Number: 5 Registered: 8-2014 |
I use Herco .75 flex picks, really like them for both bass and guitar. In terms of playing bass with a pick, I find that the pattern of the notes and the fingerboard hand determines the picking sequence. In other words, I don't always pick down or always pick up on certain beats of the measure, it's all determined by what is needed to get the musical thought across. I also primarily use just my wrist and fingers in my pick hand, rarely do I use my entire arm, but that's a matter of preference I guess. Depending on your style of music, it can be a thin line between getting the clarity of the initial attack sound and not applying too much pressure and losing the warmth of the entire note. You have to experiment until you get a feel for the sound you are looking for. I play finger style as well, and I find that controlling open strings from ringing out takes more of effort with pick style playing. To compensate for this, I find myself muting more with my fingerboard hand to control open strings. I do less muting with my pick hand, when playing with a pick than when playing finger style, probably due to my fingers being confined to holding the pick and required hand position. Those are my quick thoughts. | ||
| ed_zeppelin
Advanced Member Username: ed_zeppelin Post Number: 249 Registered: 2-2010 |
Here's a great interview with Carol Kaye (she's a killer guitarist as well). http://youtu.be/q4JWqK6r6N4 It's really interesting, with lots of examples of her picking technique. | ||
| tubeperson
Senior Member Username: tubeperson Post Number: 530 Registered: 5-2005 |
I suggest you try a felt pick for a different tonal variation. Also, if you can catch a Fab Faux concert, check out Will Lee picking away. I never realized how many upstrokes McCartney must have used, since Will is emulating his technique. that was a lesson for sure. | ||
| adriaan
Moderator Username: adriaan Post Number: 3306 Registered: 6-2002 |
It's been a while now, but in my teenage years most of my playing was with a pick - cheap but pretty playable Japanese Jazz Bass copy, Rotosounds, into a Peavey Musician(?) head and a 2x12. Pick was always a thick translucent whitish grippy one. Sometimes when it wore down, I would cut teeth into it - kind of like a manual distortion. Competing with a loud drummer (remember those Chinese cymbals?) in a wannabe-Rush group where I was half the other guys' age, sure I needed a pick! Broke more G strings than I could afford, and blew a speaker once. Always tried to play fluidly though, mimicking Herman Deinum (but I never mastered the flurry lines from Manja - I think he used an alternative tuning, it's unplayable in standard). So what happened? Turned to jazz, moved away from Rotos, upgraded to a Yamaha BB1000S - then a good few years later the Epic entered my life. Nowadays I only use a pick when playing guitar. I remember the timing thing though - you can go just a little early on syncopated notes, without rushing. | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 1625 Registered: 1-2005 |
I still think about this topic a lot - I am absolutely a "pick player." It really bugs me when people are prejudiced against pick playing - doesn't happen around here much, but it can crop up anywhere. I got really angry at someone on TalkBass - his posts were not only mean and bigoted against pick playing, but inaccurate as well. One of his arguments was that it's like harpsichord vs. piano - that one can't get any tonal variations with a pick - what an idiot. There are so many variations possible. Edwin's point about "letting the amp do the work" made me think of something - I have never had a good enough amp to be able to do this. I think that's maybe why I tend to play harder with a pick, but it's actually part of a sound - CLANK! And I believe that a Rickenbacker is best for this. I never picked up on it until a recent Rickenbacker gathering (this was called BARC - the Bay Area Rickenbacker Confluence) when I was playing someone else's Chris Squire & Lemmy signature Rics and another friend commented that he picks very gently but the way I was attacking the strings contributed to a sound. Actually, it happened at one of the Alembic Gatherings in Canyon when I was playing Wolf's single-pickup Distillate, so it can be done on an Alembic too, just maybe not what people expect from an Alembic. I think it might work better on longer-scale instruments too - that's why the Ric works, I can do it with my Alembicized 70's P, but not so much on my short scale Stanley Clarke Signature Squared. | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4912 Registered: 6-2002 |
Even though I started out as a guitarist, I don't think I've ever played a bass with a pick even though that have been an easier transition. It's never been something I've really put any thoughts into and on top of that all the bass players I followed growing up were finger players. I guess the only track I think of that was played with a pick back then was For the love of Money by the Ojays and without heavy callouses I can't imagine being able to reproduce that attack without a pick. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 4755 Registered: 5-2009 |
I let my hands do the work , the electronic signal path and instrument enhances the work that my hands do . Alembic pickups and electronics and instruments bring the desired sonic image in my mind into realization much better others. Unfortunately from my perspective picks /plectrums , just get in the way. I like to use three finders and my thumb on my right hand instead very lightly. My left hand leads and executes the musical motifs directed from my mind with the right hand gently assisting in various positions between the bridge and the twelfth fret octave position. I use this technique on both fretless and fretted bass's. Sonicus AKA Wolf Bostedt  | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2202 Registered: 5-2002 |
Weirdly, Anthony Jackson, who played on For The Love Of Money, credits Jack Casady for being the inspiration for using a pick. I don't think I've ever heard Casady using a pick. But back in the day, there was a lot of music played with a pick on bass, including all of Carol Kaye's work, which included a fair amount of Motown and seemingly all the TV soundtracks from the late 60s through the 70s. Also, check out Steve Swallow, a jazz player who was one of the early adopters of the electric bass. He has a very upright like tone and approach and is a pick player. (and also a copious contributor to the Real Book). Being familiar with his playing and applying his principles has allowed me to pretend that I know Phil Lesh parts. And then, there is in the always inspiring Bobby Vega. Pick playing has the reputation of being a rock technique, but from AJ to Swallow to Kaye, it's clear that it has a solid presence in jazz and other genres. I like using both. And thumb. It's all good. No, it's all great! The point about playing hard and getting clank is well taken. But a conscious use of a technique is different from what I dealt with: trying to play too hard to overcome underpowered amps for too long resulting in chronic wrist pain (exacerbated by the application of a 32 oz. juice bottle at high velocity at an outdoor gig when the weather was around 55°F and I was not yet warmed up). | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 1627 Registered: 1-2005 |
Anthony Jackson was definitely inspirational for me - the fact that he would switch between pick and fingers within the same song - on the studio albums with Al Di Meola like Casino you can tell the difference and it always fits the music. I was finally able to see him play live with Hiromi and it was great - he would hold this giant pick in his mouth while playing with his fingers. I know I read that he was inspired by seeing Jack Casady perform live in the '60s, but don't remember that that was his inspiration for playing with a pick. Maybe he got him confused with Phil Lesh? I never got into Steve Swallow, though I tried! I quit playing regularly in 1995 - had I kept playing, I have a feeling I would have developed physical problems too - my pathetic equipment coupled with a problematic soundman resulted in me playing too hard. If I were playing regularly now I would definitely work on adequate amplification and tempering/improving my technique. Wolf - the idea of the pick getting in the way is interesting. I feel like it's more of an extension than an impediment, but that's just me. The diversity of approaches and styles is part of what makes music fun! | ||
| ed_zeppelin
Advanced Member Username: ed_zeppelin Post Number: 259 Registered: 2-2010 |
I play with a pick all the time, depending on the song. I stick one somewhere on the bass, usually between the pickup and pocket where I can grab it without missing a beat. I also use a thumbpick (lately I've become obsessed with Fred Kelly "Bumblebee" hybrid thumbpick/pick because I always have one in my pocket. Ynever know when you'll need some emergency Chet or Buster. I use Earl Scruggs' "thumbpick trick" to keep it firmly in place. It's especially handy when you mute the strings right in front of the saddles with your palm and "fingerpick" the bass. It's a really cool sound that I don't know how to get otherwise. Turn it up, mute it and that thumb pick comes down like a hammer. It gives this huge "ponk" that sounds like you're kicking a hippo. Hits you right in the solar plexus. Try it. (Don't kick hippos. I understand they don't respond well to that.) Carol Kaye always used a pick. (Watch her technique in that video. She's a smokin' guitarist, as well.) Check out her discography, take your time. Everybody from Count Basie and Ray Charles to Frank Zappa. Every time I look at that list, a jukebox goes off in my head. On "Good Vibrations" Carol's iconic bass line was doubled by an upright bass played with a pick, as seen at 3:24 in that video (note the extended bridge section on the original recording, beginning at that exact point). As if that's not enough, check out the staggering number of movie and TV soundtracks she played on, always with a pick. Same with her guitar work, including all the Phil Spector stuff ("You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling, whoa-o That, lovin' feeling ...") This is fun. Old Fender basses came with a "finger rest." Apparently for over two decades, Leo thought bass players plucked the strings with their thumb! Then Fender moved it to the other side of the strings for awhile (and changed the name to "thumb rest"), before doing away with it altogether. I play with my naked (!) thumb, too. Again, if the song calls for it ... Nobody ever talks about it, but one of the best things about Alembics is that because the tailpiece is slotted, changing strings takes seconds, if you're working with broken in strings. Sometimes I use these gnarly, ancient black tapewounds that give a wonderful "thud." I keep a 4" length of thick neoprene weatherstripping that I jam under the strings about a half inch in front of the saddles, turn it way up and "ponk." It's like playing bass drum. A bonus video, just for kicks. (Message edited by Ed_zeppelin on February 18, 2016) | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 4756 Registered: 5-2009 |
To be clear , I am not apposed to picks/plectrums when used by anyone. Many players who I very highly admire and have been influential in a major way to me are and were pick players. From a standpoint such as the melodic lines and the use of counterpoint and harmonic composition and form , many of these players have partially formed my mentation behind my improvisational approach in many ways. There have also been many players such as stated above are and were not pick players and from them I have learned and combined my " hands only" technique . It's all great friends ! . I have used picks when called upon for what ever reasons but if you don't make me do it I prefer my "full contact and control "method . I just works for me . Wolf (Message edited by sonicus on February 18, 2016) | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 2203 Registered: 5-2002 |
Wolf, for some reason, you just reminded me of another great pick player with a history with Alembic: Andy West! | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 1631 Registered: 1-2005 |
Hey Wolf - I hope it didn't sound like I was accusing you of anti-pick bias - I realize that I am hyper-sensitive, if not over-sensitive when it comes to playing bass with a pick. Having played drums behind you I feel like I have a deeper appreciation of your bass playing, which I love. To keep on topic, who were your pick-playing influences? | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 4758 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hello Harry , I believe everything is copasetic ! Mr. Philip Lesh has most certainly been an influence on me in both pick-playing and that era of his finger style playing. His mentation behind what his hands do is what the source of influence has and still is a source of inspiration for my " Lesh Mode". As such ; "From a standpoint such as the melodic lines and the use of counterpoint and harmonic composition and form , many of these players have partially formed my mentation behind my improvisational approach in many ways. " I also would say that Chris Squire was an influence and Ronnie Lane as well and of course Steve Swallow. Carol Kaye and Bobby Vega as well . There are most likely others as well . All these great players have influenced me to morph my finger style technique from finger style players like Jaco Pastorius, Mark Egan , Michael Manring , John Entwistle, Alphonso Johnson, Rocco Prestia, Norman Watt-Roy , Duck Dunn , Will Lee , Jimmy Johnson and some other great finger style players . Wolf (Message edited by sonicus on February 18, 2016) | ||
| artswork99
Moderator Username: artswork99 Post Number: 2069 Registered: 7-2007 |
Here is a great plectrum player that I've had the pleasure of sitting and making some music with, Cody Wright... he is a fine bass player and making real strides, leaps and bounds in his career over the last few years. Proud of this young man! | ||
| edwardofhuncote
Senior Member Username: edwardofhuncote Post Number: 846 Registered: 6-2014 |
Thanks for that Art. I've been watching a couple of Cody's instructional vids. Wasn't familiar with him other than by name. The Charlottesville musical circle is much bigger and far more diverse than Roanoke's, so it's not surprising that a talent like that would flourish. (also hadn't realized you were that close to here too!) So I began using the pick with this alternative country side-gig last week, sort of using them as a test bench... they don't care so much *how* I play as they do *what* I play. It seems to be working in that context, and the trial-by-fire is a strong motivating factor. More later... | ||
| dannobasso
Senior Member Username: dannobasso Post Number: 1584 Registered: 3-2004 |
Here is an ol' vid I did. You will see both finger style and pick on a noodling improv with a Zep finisher. https://youtu.be/PUfLozlL-HY |
