| Author | Message | ||
| ajdover
Advanced Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 327 Registered: 11-2003 |
Most of you know I have the Burkha King here in Baghdad. I've been trying to get her set up just right, but I'm having some problems. First, let me say that I've read all the stuff in the FAQ and Must Read sections related to this. I've also gone to the trouble of ordering Dan Erlewine DVDs so I could see how he does things. I've tightened truss rods, raised the bridge, raised the nut, etc. I use DR Hi Beam .40-.100 Stainless Steel Roundwounds. I like my action fairly low (3/32 inches and below on the E string; about an 1/8th inch or lower on the G string). I have a medium to heavy right hand in terms of attack. I modify my attack based on the tune and volume required; I am not one of those "light touch" guys we always hear a lot about, but I'm not a heavy string metal player either. I play with my fingers, slap, pop, and use a pick (Jim Dunlop Tortex Standard 1.14mm). In short, I'm about in the middle in terms of attack/set up and playing styles. I've got the E string at slightly above 3/32" with no buzz, as are the A and D strings. However, the G string is giving me fits. I've tried tightening the truss rod on that side, loosening it, lowering and raising the nut, and raising and lower the bridge respectively. Nothing works. I've got buzz out the ying yang for the most part, primarily up to about the 10th fret. What I don't get is the frets on that side of the bass are fine, but yet I have buzz. None of the other strings buzz at all (well, not much, anyway). Other than changing the attack (which I don't want to do since all the other strings are fine), what can I do to fix this? Suggestions, comments, ideas are all welcome. I have allen wrenches, screwdrivers, a capo, feeler gauges (down to .016), a tuner, etc. all available, as is a flat edge and slotted flat edge from Stew-Mac to use (the net is a wonderful thing). If there are any other tools I should have, let me know. I'm not necessarily looking for the John Entwistle "I like my strings on the other side of the frets" type of set up, but I don't want a James Jamerson ultra-high set up either. With the attack I have, I know that it will never be ultra low, but I think I should be able to get it within reason, say slightly lower than 3/32" on the E string. Help! Thanks, Alan | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1089 Registered: 3-2004 |
Okay.... It sounds like you could use a little more neck relief on the treble side of the neck. A bridge too low would buzz all the way up the neck. A nut too low would buzz open strings and make no difference on fretted notes. Too much relief and you won't buzz anywhere, too little and you buzz on frets 1-12 or so. You're using a light string, so they will be a bit on the loose side and more likely to buzz. Also, those DRs have a lot of roundwound character, making them more prone to noise to begin with. First, I would measure everything so you have a base point to return to if your adjustments don't improve things. Then I would try backing off a quarter turn on just the treble side truss rod. While Alembic recommends that you adjust the rods in sync, who knows how it was handled by the previous owners. Don't expect immediate results to the rod adjustment, it may take a bit of time for the delicate adjustment to settle in. Were it I, I might try tuning my G string up a half step or so to add tension and maybe help the adjustment settle in. Just thinking out loud, I'm no setup professional. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3455 Registered: 5-2002 |
Where are you measuring the 3/32s? I agree with Bob that it sounds like a truss rod adjustment issue. In addition to what Bob said: - In conjunction with your truss rod adjustment, lowering the nut may help get your measurement where you want it. - When making a truss rod adjustment to the G side, making an adjustment on the E side at the same time can help. | ||
| precarius
Member Username: precarius Post Number: 71 Registered: 11-2005 |
Alan On my Elan- I got it from Good Guys Guitars on your reccomendation and they are great- I had a buzz on the G string also. I actually had the treble side truss rod nut loose and still not enough relief! Then I read the posts about adjusting both truss rods the same amount, even though the E-A-D strings were OK, and that worked. I had to adjust just a little and wait till the next day to see how it came out. That was the hardest part-waiting. Good luck and I'm sure you'll be doing it all over again when you come back to good ole humid North Carolina! Mike | ||
| ajdover
Advanced Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 328 Registered: 11-2003 |
Guys, Thanks for all the help and suggestions. Right now, the treble side truss rod is all the way out (snugged up so it's not loose, but it's all the way out), while the bass side is tightened up a bit more. All action measurements were taken at the 24th fret using a Stew-Mac String Action Gauge. Relief is .016 at the 9th-10th fret, with the first fret capo'd and the string held down at the 24th fret. I've not noticed a twist or anything like that yet; I'm going to give it a day or two to settle in and see what happens. I really don't want to go to a heavier gauge as I like the ability to bend strings. .45-.105 seem like telephone wires to me. I'll advise in a day or two and seek more advice if needed. Thanks again everyone for the help. | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 677 Registered: 9-2002 |
MajorD A few random thoughts from chasing the action around the mulberry bush . . . Chart Your Changes: Write down the various heights, reliefs, etc., as you progress through your changes. I've found that when I got on a rash of 'eyeballing it' that I crossed the same adjustments a fews times without really realizing it. This subtle blend of relief, nut and bridge heights can fuse into a blur at times. After I've painted myself into a corner like that, I'll just go back to a 'starter' set of measurements and start over. Don't underestimate that the BK may be breathing heavy wood-wise: It's crossed lots of time zones to be with you and your average humidity in theatre is in the single digits, right? And the air conditioned rooms you're in may be lower still. I take a different view than most as regards the adjusting of the dual truss rods. On my fives, I just don't think it's reasonable for the side with a 130 and 105 to adjust exactly the same as the treble side with a 45 and 65. So, I treat the neck as if it were two separate parts: I work the bass side to my desired relief (10 to 15/1000s), then the same relief on the high side, and however the tightness on the nuts work out, so be it. It would seem to me the only way to do this. I might worry about this on a single piece Fender neck, not on deluxe laminates capped by a full 1/4" of ebony. I can't judge torque at the nuts, but afterwards one doesn't feel appreciably different than the other. From the description of your playing style, I'd shoot for average nut heights over the nut (10,15,20,25, G-E), 15 relief at your 10th fret, and between 1/16 and 1/8 over the last fret as a beginning start up point. I'm guessing it'll end up a little flatter and your last fret heights can taper down towards the high side. Probably not, but one string only buzzing always makes me suspicious of that string itself. And the adjustable nut gives you a test bed for one side or the other quite nicely. Hope this thinking out loud helps. Take good care of you and your fellows J o e y | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 678 Registered: 9-2002 |
One other thing: Fret buzz from the nut to partway up the neck almost always leads back to the nut. These axes were set up for 45s, and while 40 is not much smaller, have you checked the slot depth? These brass nuts rarely get rip-sawed by a steady diet of roundwounds, but you never know. The 'eyeball test' by ear for nut heights: hold a note at the third fret (say, C on the A string), and while you're holding the note with your left hand, reach 'round with your right hand and push the same string down onto the first fret. It should have just enough play in it to move and immediately hear a 'clink' as it touches the fret. If they all do this the same, it reinforces the measurements were correct. If not . . . check the slots. J o e y | ||
| ajdover
Advanced Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 329 Registered: 11-2003 |
Joey, All great advice. I'll write down what I have now and go from there. I'll also try putting on a different string and see what happens as well as adjusting the nut. I truly can't understand for the life of me why .45-.105 is what most manufacturers design/set up their instruments for. I guess they have to have some kind of baseline, but geez, every time I try to put on lighter strings I have to do cheetah flips to get it to where I want it. I realize I have to make compromises (physics is a very exact science), but I just wish for once I could get an instrument designed for light gauge strings without the hassle. I know on my Series II Spyder I'm going to specify that it be set up with light gauge, .40-.100 DR High Beams with the lowest action possible, using a medium to heavy right hand playing style. Might as well get it how I want it, and I know the good folks in Santa Rosa will do that for me. Thanks again, Alan | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 1117 Registered: 7-2004 |
Alan: You wrote: "but I just wish for once I could get an instrument designed for light gauge strings without the hassle." You can! It's called a guitar!!!! LOL Sorry, couldn't resist after being handed the straight line. Hope all is well. Keep enjoying that Alembic and get yourself home safely to enjoy all the others. Bill, tgo | ||
| olieoliver
Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 82 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hi Alan, your last post posed a good question. I wonder what gauge string most bass players here use. I personally like 45-65-85-105-(125 on 5 strings models). I noticed a trend of some string munfacturers to use 80 on the A string in their med. ga. sets. I know on guitar I get a better sound with larger gauge strings (I use 10's on my Strat & 12's on my Daion) but I don't think this matters as much on my bass guitars since the mass of pretty much any bass string is so much larger than that of guitar anyway. I am curious, what gauge does everyone here prefer. (Message edited by olieoliver on March 15, 2006) | ||
| ajdover
Advanced Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 330 Registered: 11-2003 |
Bill, You realize of course that you're going to hell for that bit.... :-) Nahh, no guitar for me. I mean, why would I want to play an instrument that has spawned guitar Gods, countless groupies, etc. while I can sit in the back and listen to things like "since it's only got four strings is it easier to play?" Besides, I like the look on someones face when I take a solo and instead of your average guitar solo, a low sound emits forth, confusing everyone beyond belief. Thanks for the kind wishes. And you ain't kiddin' - I can't wait to get home and play all of my other instruments, Best regards, Alan | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 798 Registered: 6-2002 |
Olie, Very true about guitar strings - I can't understand how people can play anything skinnier than 10s. For bass I prefer the same guages as you, at least in roundwounds. For flats, I use TI Jazz Flats which are lighter overall - you hear a lot of players complaining that they should offer a heavier version of the same, but that would probably change the character too much. Anything lighter than a .045 or .043 for a G and my pinky finger starts complaining! I can't imagine what a high C would do ... | ||
| olieoliver
Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 83 Registered: 2-2006 |
I even had my daughter start with 10s. She complained a bit at first but now is glad she did. I have a 6 Stirng WW thumbbass that i use a .032 for the C. It's not really as bad as you would think on the fingers. This may be because I don't play the high C alot. Wow I just realized that this is my 83th post since I joined 3 weeks ago. I hope ya'll don't think I talk TOO much. It's just that I REALLY like this forum. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3471 Registered: 5-2002 |
Olie; I would think that a lot of players would disagree with your statement, "I know on guitar I get a better sound with larger gauge strings .. but I don't think this matters as much on my bass". Lots of players that play the thicker gauges do so because they feel the thinner gauges sound thinner and that the thicker gauges give them more low-mid growl. Of course feel is another important issue with string thickness. And to answer your question, my gauges are .089, .068, .051, .043. | ||
| olieoliver
Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 84 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hi Dave, I see where my post about strings may have been misleading. I agree that the gauge of Bass strings does make a differance in tone, but IMHO this differance is more noticable on a guitar. That is an interesting config. of strings you use Dave. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3473 Registered: 5-2002 |
Olie; they are TI Jazz Rounds, 34". | ||
| ajdover
Advanced Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 331 Registered: 11-2003 |
Well, I've made more adjustments to the Burkha King, and I'm happy to report that the action is better than it was, with less buzz on the G string. Many thanks to Joey for the sage advice. What he suggested I do works! What I ended up doing was marking the truss rod nuts with a Sharpie pen to measure the amount of turns of the nut I'd made. Then I backed the truss rods all the way out on both sides, and tuned the BK up. Then I checked the strings for buzz, put on a capo, measured the relief, took off the capo, and kept tightening, retuning, capoing, measuring relief, tightening, etc. till I got most of it out on the G string. Then I started playing with the action a bit. I've got the E string down to .060", but the A, D, and G strings are still a bit high for me (.090, .090, and .100 (!) respectively). I'm going to wait a day to see how the neck settles in and try to make more action adjustments later. I've got quite a bit of relief in the neck (over .016), but the action overall is much better. I guess that's the price I pay for a heavy right hand and light gauge strings. I'll report back when I've attempted my action adjustments. Thanks again to everyone who's offered wise counsel, tips, suggestions. It's truly one of the great things about this club - bassists helping bassists. Best regards, Alan (Message edited by ajdover on March 15, 2006) | ||
| olieoliver
Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 86 Registered: 2-2006 |
Don't forget about our 6 (& 7 string)constituents. | ||
| ajdover
Advanced Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 332 Registered: 11-2003 |
6 and 7 strings? We don't need no 6 and 7 strings! (with apologies to Mel Brooks of "Blazing Saddles" fame) Just kidding! I appreciate all the help here from everyone, guitarists included. Best regards, Alan | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 680 Registered: 9-2002 |
You really made my day! One of Dan's best bits was about tuning against loose truss rods to buy more 'purchase' for the nuts, or the other way he does it, just add a washer or two to do the same thing. I'd imagined when I heard you describe the way you play, you WEREN'T gonna wind up with an 'other side of the frets' set-up. Too much left hand against smaller strings. But I knew you'd go through this just like I do: Just about the time you really think '...if I'd have only left well enough alone..', then the litlle light comes on, and BOOM, you're there. I'm relentless with my own basses about this. The last Yamaha (and believe me it's the LAST Yamaha) I bought a couple of weeks ago ('Bought a Bass') had just about drove me a little crazy. Like always, the first 90% of dialing it in was easy. That last 10% got really aggravating. I finally said THIS is what it needs, did it, put it away for three days. Took it out, tried it, gave it half a turn, raised the A and D saddles, BOOM! Done. A lot like rifle qualifying, easy to get on the paper, harder to get consistent bulls. The great thing about used (read older) neck thrus: The wood/paint/glue is through drying and moving and your setups tend to stay in place with little maintenance. You and the BK and your fellows come home soon, tickled I may have helped out. J o e y | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 681 Registered: 9-2002 |
I should give credit where credit is due. The BEST $ I EVER spent was buying Dan Erlewine's "Guitar Player's Repair Guide" available many places. I took my experience and WORE OUT the adjustment section of this book until I 'got it'. Or as the Major recounted, Dan also markets a lot of this and more on an excellent series of DVD tutorials available through Stewart-MacDonald (www.stewmac.com), the guitar supply outfit no one can live without. Dan explains it all in a way that's very understandable to the average Joe (or Joey!), spoken in a tone like the best mechanic you ever knew back home. His info and insights combined with ALEMBIC's unique setup features (the adjustable nut, the twin truss rods, the one piece bridge) put me in the perfect situation to learn how to do this myself, a gift that has taught me so much as to be worth MANY times what I paid for the book. In a practical sense, I look at this way: My favorite repair shop on Music Row here in Nashville, Classic Axe, gets $75 for a proper bass setup (and it's worth it, seriously well done) if I had it done. Times four basses, that's $300. I'll NEVER have to spend a DIME of that $300. And I can't over-emphasize the ALEMBIC part of it. I COULD have learned this on a Fender or Music Man, but bolting/unbolting the neck, the difficulty of the trussrod at the end of the neck beneath a pickguard, a plastic nut, it may have been frustrating enough to make me just settle for as good a setup as my frustration level would allow. After turning my ALEMBIC into a log SEVERAL times, then returning it to great while learning this, now I feel like if I were to approach something else, I would be educated up enough to know what to do right off the bat. You can't ask more from an education than that! J o e y | ||
| bassdr
Member Username: bassdr Post Number: 57 Registered: 10-2004 |
Joey, Dan Erlewine lives here in MI and the last I knew was at Elderly Instruments in Lansing- he is the man! Michael | ||
| ajdover
Advanced Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 335 Registered: 11-2003 |
Well, I'm kind of back to square one, only now it is worse. The G string would not stop buzzing no matter what I did (raising the nut, lowering the nut, minor truss rod adjustments, rasising/lowering the bridge, making sacrifice offerings to the Bass Gods, etc.). I tried putting on a set of Dean Markley Blue Steels, .45-.60-.80-.100 on them, and indeed the buzz went away on the G string. I just didn't care for the strings that much - I liked the DRs better. It should be noted that I made no truss rod, bridge, or nut adjustments when I did this. These strings seemed to pull on the neck more from what could tell, so I removed them and put on a fresh set of DR Hi Beams, .40-.60-.80-.100. And then .... Buzz all over the place, particularly on the E string this time. My relief was at .016" at the 10th fret while capoed at the first fret with the string held down at the 24th (measurement taken on the E string and G String); action was approximately .060" on the E string at the 24th fret, and .090" at the 24th fret on the G string. Again, this is what it was when I initially got most of the buzz out of the neck, and I did not change it when I put the Dean Markleys on and took them off, before I put on the fresh set of DRs. I've tried doing as before - letting out all the way on the truss rods, making 1/8 turns of both truss rods at the same time to work the relief into the neck, made sure to check there was the little "plink" noise at the first fret when holding down the string at the third fret and pressing the first, making minor adjustments to the nut as needed, etc. Nothing seems to work. it literally buzzes all over the place. Again, I'm not a light touch player, nor am I a heavy player. I know I'm going to have to make some compromises in set up due to my playing style and string gauge choice, but I'm truly at a loss. I've watched the Dan Erlewine videos I've got here, and it's not helping (he doesn't talk about neck through instruments, only bolt ons as far as basses go, and they're Fender style instruments.). I think I have the right tools here to do a basic set up (straight edges, capo, feeler gauges, tuner, etc.), so that shouldn't be the issue. Guys, I'm very frustrated by all of this. I love this instrument and I can't get her set up the way I want it. Short of sending it all the way back to the States (I'm in Baghdad, Iraq), I don't know what to do. I do not want to go to .45-.105 strings as I just don't like them - way too heavy for my tastes. I'll only do that if I have no choice. Any and all advice is sought and will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Alan | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 599 Registered: 11-2002 |
We feel your pain, Alan. It sounds like you have a pretty good understanding of things, but feels to me like maybe you're trying a little to hard? I don't know whether this will help, but you said "any and all advice", so here goes. First: stop messing about with the nut. If set too low, it really only affects the open string and first few frets; if too high, it will increase your action overall, but not by that much. So just set it high enough to get the "plink" as you describe, and leave it alone until you get the rest of this sorted out. Next: don't worry about the string gauges. As long as you can get adequate relief in the neck (and .016" measured as you describe should be fine), then you have enough string tension. From what you say, it sounds like with the lighter strings, you can get this relief and still have at least a tiny bit of tension on both truss rods. As long as that's true, then you don't need heavier strings. I'll qualify that slightly... heavier strings will generally be under more tension, and therefore won't move through as much of an arc when plucked, and so they might buzz less if you're right on the edge. However, the difference in going 40-100 to 45-105 should be small enough that you could raise the bridge slightly to compensate, and not feel like the action was excessive. So I would suggest sticking with the strings you like, as long as you can still get enough relief in the neck. The one thing that sounds funny to me is when you say "action was approximately .060 on the E string at the 24th fret, and .090 at the 24th fret on the G string". How did you measure this? I think the usual convention is to measure action as distance from string to fret, at the 24th, without the capo at first fret (i.e. just measure the open string, while in usual playing position). Your numbers seem ridiculously low to me, especially for someone with a moderately aggressive touch. Joey's classic post on the subject suggests 1/8" on the G side, 3/16" on the E. If my math is right, that would be 0.125 on the G, and 0.1875 on the E. This is twice as high as you're describing - though reversed from thin to fat! I can personally go a little lower than that, and in fact after recently raising my bridge because I started digging in a little more, I'm still under 3/16 on the fat side (a B, in my case), and the G side is right at 1/8. Granted, I'm fretless and it's a little different, but 1/8 G and 3/16 E is not exactly what most people would call "high", let alone unplayable. It's a good starting point. Again, maybe you measured with the capo still on, which would be different, or maybe we just have a typo here. Can you confirm? Perhaps the best advice I can offer is to forget about the holy grail of super-low action. What you want is an instrument set up in such a way that you can have a good time playing it. I just got over this syndrome myself recently... kept trying to get the neck straighter and bridge lower, and I could do that as long as I played with a very light touch and lots of volume. But I wanted a wider range of expression, and more deliberate plucking, and then I would get this very subtle but highly annoying buzz. So I raised the bridge a 1/2 turn or bit more and eased in about 1/8 turn on the truss rods, and as long as the action police don't come over to measure things, I'm happy. Sorry for going on. To summarize, it sounds like you have a fairly good setting for the nut, relief of .016 as you measured it sounds great, you should stick with the strings you like. I suggest you leave these things alone for a bit, just to reduce the number of variables. The only thing that seems odd to me here is your action measurement, though maybe you measured differently than I do. I suggest you try the 1/8 G and 3/16 E, measured with the string open and in playing position, and tell us how that goes. I know I'd rather have the action a little high and be able to play cleanly, as opposed to getting nothing but buzz. It might be better to start that way, get settled in, and then start slowly working your way down again. Good luck. -Bob (PS: I have no clue what happened when you switched between strings, that sounds really strange.) | ||
| dfung60
Intermediate Member Username: dfung60 Post Number: 145 Registered: 5-2002 |
Alan - Sounds to me like you have a pretty classic case of insufficient relief in the neck - the treble side is naturally too flat, so the truss rods aren't going to help you out. Lighter strings have lower tension and that isn't helping either. Finally, extreme low humidity in the desert is also probably a factor (because the neck is laminated, I don't think you'll know whether it will flatten or bow in dry air). There's a couple of things you want to do. Simultaneously fret each string at the first and 24th fret, then sight down the neck using the string as a straightedge. If it's touching along one or many frets then you need more relief. The gaps between the string and fret tops should gradually increase toward the 10-14the fret area, then decrease as you continue up. Unless you have a very, very light touch, it's going to buzz if you don't see those gaps. The problem here is that when you pick your strings with your right hand, you can't possibly cause them to vibrate parallel to the fingerboard. The perpendicular component of the vibration is what makes the fret buzz. Another simple test it to tune your bass up a half step or more. That increases the string tension and pulls the neck into relief. Of course, this will only work until your male lead singer gets back or your keyboard player kills you. The only way that you can fix a too-flat neck problem without fretwork is to increase string tension which either means heavier/higher-tension strings or tuning higher. This is why the string change caused your bigger buzz - the Blue Steels must be higher tension than your DRs were. A really high tension set of strings (D'Addario Halfrounds or Fender flats) will probably reduce the problem but you might not like the way they feel. You can forget about Thomastiks for sure. The real fix to the problem is to get a fret mill job, which will require a visit to the guitar tech. If you have one or two high frets causing the problem (as identified when you tested by holding the ends of the string down) then it's a fairly trivial matter. If you have insufficient relief in the neck, then the tech may be able to fix the problem by cutting the relief into the fret tops. If the problem is really serious, then the fix would be to have a full refret where they can sand the relief into the fretboard. I guess that you might also test whether a humidifier in your case would make the problem better. I wouldn't think this would be that useful as you might easily end up with an unplayable bass by the end of a set. I know these are not very pleasant options given your location, so I'd definitely try to see if a higher tension set of strings fixes your problem. Good luck David Fung | ||
| ajdover
Advanced Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 336 Registered: 11-2003 |
Bob/David, All great points, and believe me, I'm taking them to heart. Bob: The measurements of the action I'm making are at the 24th fret, using a Stew-Mac string action gauge. It measures in a number of ways, but mostly in decimal points of an inch, hence the .060 measurements, etc. Essentially, I place the edge of the gauge on top of the 24th fret and take the measurement as I'm looking at it as if I were playing. All such measurements were taken with the capo off. David, I have a Stew-Mac straightedge that I used to measure relief, and also used the method you're describing, though I used a capo at the 1st fret instead of holding it down manually. I also used Stew-Mac feeler gauges to measure the relief at the 10th fret, with the first fret capoed and the string held down at the 24th fret. It measured .016" at the 10th fret. I'm going to revisit this again today, and raise the action as Bob suggest and see what happens. Will advise. Thanks again for the help. Best regards, Alan | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 807 Registered: 6-2002 |
Alan, Are you making adjustements and measurements with the instrument in playing position - i.e. not lying flat on its back? | ||
| ajdover
Advanced Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 338 Registered: 11-2003 |
Adriaan, All measurements are taken and adjustments made with the instrument in playing position. Alan | ||
| dfung60
Intermediate Member Username: dfung60 Post Number: 147 Registered: 5-2002 |
Alan - Thanks for the followup. I don't normally work out the action numerically - I just tweak the instruments around until they feel right to me, let 'em sit around for a day or two and refine them. Since you did have numerical reads from your setup, I figured I go check 'em out vs. how I'm set up. Now I will say that I set up very differently than you do - I tend toward heavier strings (.105 or .108 on a 34" or greater scale). I will set up with medium high string heights and relatively high relief (definitely visible when you site along the string). I would definitely say my setup is for heavy attack. I don't have a buzz problem, but it's not suprising - I measured around .020" relief at the 10th using the same method you did; quite a lot more relief. Open string height at the 24th fret was just less than 1/8" on all the strings, about what you had. These were "sloppy" measurements, as I didn't have round feeler gauges at this size or a capo (yes, fretted with my finger at 1st fret and elbow at the 24th so I could try to manipulate the gauge in!). This was on a 1990 thru-body Warwick Thumb 4 that I had nearby. This bass has a laminated wenge neck and is pretty stable so the neck is in the midrange of relief for my basses. I have a number of Modulus basses which are also right in the .018-.020 range (non-adjustable with no truss rod, but fine for me), same string height. I know I set up somewhat high, but if you're really aiming at relief at .016 or less, then you will probably want to check the progression of the relief and make sure that it's evenly progressing up and back. At a certain point, it will become an issue of right hand technique to control the planarity of the string vibration if you want to really be buzz free. On the other side, if your bass is wiling to cooperate and allow you to dial in more relief, then I would argue that you can increase the relief pretty significantly to address buzz without it being all that offensive to your fingers or ears (we're only talking about 1000ths of an inch to your fingers and fractions of a cent in intonation). If the .016 relief is an artifact of the neck being too straight, then at least this narrows down what you need to work on. Best regards, David Fung | ||
| ajdover
Advanced Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 340 Registered: 11-2003 |
David, Well, I've gotten most of the buzz out, but it's still a bit high for my tastes. E string is just under 7/64" at the 24th fret; G string is just at 5/64" at the 24th fret. Relief is right at .016" at the 10th fret using flat feeler gauges. I guess I'm just going to have to live with it being higher than I want for the moment and over time see if I can get it lower with minor adjustments. I guess it's the price to pay for light gauge strings. To Everyone, Thanks for all the help. I'll report back if I can get the action lower. Alan | ||
| dfung60
Intermediate Member Username: dfung60 Post Number: 148 Registered: 5-2002 |
Alan - Just following up in a slightly more compact fashion... I think if you increase the relief, you may find that you can get the string height considerably lower without buzz. Early in the discussion, it sounded like you were not able to get more relief on the treble side at least, but if you can dial in 4/1000th more you'll probably find that you'll gain freedom in how you pick/pluck the strings. The buzz comes from the component of the string motion that is perpendicular to the fingerboard when you play the notes. When you're fretting at the 5th fret, you've got probably 18" of frets that the string can bang into, and the highest amplitude of motion will be over the 14th fret or so. Some extra relief will buy you a little more room there and allow for that lower action you're looking for. Good luck, David Fung |
